Al Qaida, or some other terrorist organization, is going to try to pull off another big terrorist strike. As a terrorist once said, we have to get lucky every time...they only have to get lucky once. Next week, next month or next year, they will get lucky. I suspect that this will push America over the edge. When 1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance instead of just a freak, or when our transportation of products and produce is paralysed, or whatever the next 9-1-1 is, I feel we will say "Enough is enough" and go on a Crusade to end terrorism, which will almost certainly ignite a Clash between the West and Islam. And if I am right, 9-1-1 was the first strike in this Clash.

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Al Qaida, or some other terrorist organization, is going to try to pull off another big terrorist strike. As a terrorist once said, we have to get lucky every time...they only have to get lucky once. Next week, next month or next year, they will get lucky. I suspect that this will push America over the edge. When 1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance instead of just a freak, or when our transportation of products and produce is paralysed, or whatever the next 9-1-1 is, I feel we will say "Enough is enough" and go on a Crusade to end terrorism, which will almost certainly ignite a Clash between the West and Islam. And if I am right, 9-1-1 was the first strike in this Clash.

...at which time everyone will realize that 911 was what we at T4T call the Fourth Turning Catalyst, not just the 65% of us posters who believe so. The second big attack will herald the 4T Social Moment, the Regeneracy, at which time we will perhaps start bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia. As XoE said on another thread, "it is they who attacked us on Sept. 11, 2001 (not Iraq), and they'll do it again".

It may also be the time when many other American cities, counties and perhaps States will follow Eugene, Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties in the name of "Homeland Security". We may also decide that we've "had enough" of Corporate America's hijacking of our government, and demand its return to We The People.

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Al Qaida, or some other terrorist organization, is going to try to pull off another big terrorist strike. As a terrorist once said, we have to get lucky every time...they only have to get lucky once. Next week, next month or next year, they will get lucky. I suspect that this will push America over the edge. When 1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance instead of just a freak, or when our transportation of products and produce is paralysed, or whatever the next 9-1-1 is, I feel we will say "Enough is enough" and go on a Crusade to end terrorism, which will almost certainly ignite a Clash between the West and Islam. And if I am right, 9-1-1 was the first strike in this Clash.

...at which time everyone will realize that 911 was what we at T4T call the Fourth Turning Catalyst, not just the 65% of us posters who believe so. The second big attack will herald the 4T Social Moment, the Regeneracy, at which time we will perhaps start bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia. As XoE said on another thread, "it is they who attacked us on Sept. 11, 2001 (not Iraq), and they'll do it again".

It may also be the time when many other American cities, counties and perhaps States will follow Eugene, Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties in the name of "Homeland Security". We may also decide that we've "had enough" of Corporate America's hijacking of our government, and demand its return to We The People.

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Al Qaida, or some other terrorist organization, is going to try to pull off another big terrorist strike. As a terrorist once said, we have to get lucky every time...they only have to get lucky once. Next week, next month or next year, they will get lucky. I suspect that this will push America over the edge. When 1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance instead of just a freak, or when our transportation of products and produce is paralysed, or whatever the next 9-1-1 is, I feel we will say "Enough is enough" and go on a Crusade to end terrorism, which will almost certainly ignite a Clash between the West and Islam. And if I am right, 9-1-1 was the first strike in this Clash.

...at which time everyone will realize that 911 was what we at T4T call the Fourth Turning Catalyst, not just the 65% of us posters who believe so. The second big attack will herald the 4T Social Moment, the Regeneracy, at which time we will perhaps start bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia. As XoE said on another thread, "it is they who attacked us on Sept. 11, 2001 (not Iraq), and they'll do it again".

It may also be the time when many other American cities, counties and perhaps States will follow Eugene, Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties in the name of "Homeland Security". We may also decide that we've "had enough" of Corporate America's hijacking of our government, and demand its return to We The People.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

...at which time everyone will realize that 911 was what we at T4T call the Fourth Turning Catalyst, not just the 65% of us posters who believe so. The second big attack will herald the 4T Social Moment, the Regeneracy, at which time we will perhaps start bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia. As XoE said on another thread, "it is they who attacked us on Sept. 11, 2001 (not Iraq), and they'll do it again".

It may also be the time when many other American cities, counties and perhaps States will follow Eugene, Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties in the name of "Homeland Security". We may also decide that we've "had enough" of Corporate America's hijacking of our government, and demand its return to We The People.

Okay, here it is in a nutshell. Kevin has posted very clearly and succinctly what I see as the contradiction of (what appears to be) the majority opinion here at T4T. Anyone who agrees with him has an excellent chance to explain how you get from one to the other of these theories. I'd agree with most of the first paragraph, only disagreeing that Iraq and its nuclear potential is a real threat.

But I can't see how you can go from there to agreement with the second paragraph.... It doesn't even fit S&H theories, which suggest that we'll tolerate restrictions for the duration of the Crisis, not rebel against them, unless the Crisis itself revolves around such a rebellion - which the first paragraph suggests it isn't.

Where's the methodology here?

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

...at which time everyone will realize that 911 was what we at T4T call the Fourth Turning Catalyst, not just the 65% of us posters who believe so. The second big attack will herald the 4T Social Moment, the Regeneracy, at which time we will perhaps start bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia. As XoE said on another thread, "it is they who attacked us on Sept. 11, 2001 (not Iraq), and they'll do it again".

It may also be the time when many other American cities, counties and perhaps States will follow Eugene, Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties in the name of "Homeland Security". We may also decide that we've "had enough" of Corporate America's hijacking of our government, and demand its return to We The People.

Okay, here it is in a nutshell. Kevin has posted very clearly and succinctly what I see as the contradiction of (what appears to be) the majority opinion here at T4T. Anyone who agrees with him has an excellent chance to explain how you get from one to the other of these theories. I'd agree with most of the first paragraph, only disagreeing that Iraq and its nuclear potential is a real threat.

But I can't see how you can go from there to agreement with the second paragraph.... It doesn't even fit S&H theories, which suggest that we'll tolerate restrictions for the duration of the Crisis, not rebel against them, unless the Crisis itself revolves around such a rebellion - which the first paragraph suggests it isn't.

Where's the methodology here?

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

...at which time everyone will realize that 911 was what we at T4T call the Fourth Turning Catalyst, not just the 65% of us posters who believe so. The second big attack will herald the 4T Social Moment, the Regeneracy, at which time we will perhaps start bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia. As XoE said on another thread, "it is they who attacked us on Sept. 11, 2001 (not Iraq), and they'll do it again".

It may also be the time when many other American cities, counties and perhaps States will follow Eugene, Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties in the name of "Homeland Security". We may also decide that we've "had enough" of Corporate America's hijacking of our government, and demand its return to We The People.

Okay, here it is in a nutshell. Kevin has posted very clearly and succinctly what I see as the contradiction of (what appears to be) the majority opinion here at T4T. Anyone who agrees with him has an excellent chance to explain how you get from one to the other of these theories. I'd agree with most of the first paragraph, only disagreeing that Iraq and its nuclear potential is a real threat.

But I can't see how you can go from there to agreement with the second paragraph.... It doesn't even fit S&H theories, which suggest that we'll tolerate restrictions for the duration of the Crisis, not rebel against them, unless the Crisis itself revolves around such a rebellion - which the first paragraph suggests it isn't.

Where's the methodology here?

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Next week, next month or next year, they will get lucky. I suspect that this will push America over the edge. When 1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance instead of just a freak, or when our transportation of products and produce is paralysed, or whatever the next 9-1-1 is, I feel we will say "Enough is enough" and go on a Crusade to end terrorism, which will almost certainly ignite a Clash between the West and Islam.

...at which time everyone will realize that 911 was what we at T4T call the Fourth Turning Catalyst, not just the 65% of us posters who believe so. The second big attack will herald the 4T Social Moment, the Regeneracy, at which time we will perhaps start bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia. As XoE said on another thread, "it is they who attacked us on Sept. 11, 2001 (not Iraq), and they'll do it again".

It may also be the time when many other American cities, counties and perhaps States will follow Eugene, Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties in the name of "Homeland Security". We may also decide that we've "had enough" of Corporate America's hijacking of our government, and demand its return to We The People.

On the first item -- "1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance": Does the writer suppose that its been "winter" in Israel since the Black September group pulled off their little scheme in Munich during the 1972 Olympics?

One the second item -- "bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia": Does the writer suppose that America should have declared war on New York and Michigan for the Oklahoma City bombing?

On the third item -- "Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties": Just how many of those precious "Constitutional liberties" do you reckon would have been trashed had the leaders in Oregon gotten their way with their massive socialized, cradle-to-grave healthcare plan? Plenty, I reckon. Or do you suppose that it would be a good thing to have some asshole bureaucrat telling you what doctor you're permitted to see, and when you can see him?

Of course, we weren't arguing about this sort of nonsense sixty years ago, but were sure were arguing about it eighty-five years ago!

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Next week, next month or next year, they will get lucky. I suspect that this will push America over the edge. When 1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance instead of just a freak, or when our transportation of products and produce is paralysed, or whatever the next 9-1-1 is, I feel we will say "Enough is enough" and go on a Crusade to end terrorism, which will almost certainly ignite a Clash between the West and Islam.

...at which time everyone will realize that 911 was what we at T4T call the Fourth Turning Catalyst, not just the 65% of us posters who believe so. The second big attack will herald the 4T Social Moment, the Regeneracy, at which time we will perhaps start bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia. As XoE said on another thread, "it is they who attacked us on Sept. 11, 2001 (not Iraq), and they'll do it again".

It may also be the time when many other American cities, counties and perhaps States will follow Eugene, Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties in the name of "Homeland Security". We may also decide that we've "had enough" of Corporate America's hijacking of our government, and demand its return to We The People.

On the first item -- "1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance": Does the writer suppose that its been "winter" in Israel since the Black September group pulled off their little scheme in Munich during the 1972 Olympics?

One the second item -- "bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia": Does the writer suppose that America should have declared war on New York and Michigan for the Oklahoma City bombing?

On the third item -- "Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties": Just how many of those precious "Constitutional liberties" do you reckon would have been trashed had the leaders in Oregon gotten their way with their massive socialized, cradle-to-grave healthcare plan? Plenty, I reckon. Or do you suppose that it would be a good thing to have some asshole bureaucrat telling you what doctor you're permitted to see, and when you can see him?

Of course, we weren't arguing about this sort of nonsense sixty years ago, but were sure were arguing about it eighty-five years ago!

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Next week, next month or next year, they will get lucky. I suspect that this will push America over the edge. When 1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance instead of just a freak, or when our transportation of products and produce is paralysed, or whatever the next 9-1-1 is, I feel we will say "Enough is enough" and go on a Crusade to end terrorism, which will almost certainly ignite a Clash between the West and Islam.

...at which time everyone will realize that 911 was what we at T4T call the Fourth Turning Catalyst, not just the 65% of us posters who believe so. The second big attack will herald the 4T Social Moment, the Regeneracy, at which time we will perhaps start bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia. As XoE said on another thread, "it is they who attacked us on Sept. 11, 2001 (not Iraq), and they'll do it again".

It may also be the time when many other American cities, counties and perhaps States will follow Eugene, Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties in the name of "Homeland Security". We may also decide that we've "had enough" of Corporate America's hijacking of our government, and demand its return to We The People.

On the first item -- "1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance": Does the writer suppose that its been "winter" in Israel since the Black September group pulled off their little scheme in Munich during the 1972 Olympics?

One the second item -- "bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia": Does the writer suppose that America should have declared war on New York and Michigan for the Oklahoma City bombing?

On the third item -- "Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties": Just how many of those precious "Constitutional liberties" do you reckon would have been trashed had the leaders in Oregon gotten their way with their massive socialized, cradle-to-grave healthcare plan? Plenty, I reckon. Or do you suppose that it would be a good thing to have some asshole bureaucrat telling you what doctor you're permitted to see, and when you can see him?

Of course, we weren't arguing about this sort of nonsense sixty years ago, but were sure were arguing about it eighty-five years ago!

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

The second big attack will herald the 4T Social Moment, the Regeneracy, at which time we will perhaps start bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia.

The Bush people will undoubtedly take advantage of the opportunity to go after the rest of the oil over there. But I do not see the second attack heralding any regeneracy. I think it is more likely that relations here at home will get considerably more strained with the resistance to the Bush administration growing and becoming considerably more vocal and active. This may well give the Bush people the pretext they desire to crack down upon it at which point things get really, really dark. I would say that regeneracy is still a ways off.

We may also decide that we've "had enough" of Corporate America's hijacking of our government, and demand its return to We The People.

When the American people "have enough" of corporatism, and if they get an opportunity to do something about it (remember, if the Bush people seize the opportunity to declare martial law, we may not have an election in 2004, or at least not a real one)...when the people have "had enough" AND they get an opportunity to vote in a real election, that will mark regeneracy. This phony War on Terrans is irrelevant to the real issues of the 4T. The establishment is trying to make it the central issue such that they guarantee their control into the 1T, but I do not see them succeeding.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

The second big attack will herald the 4T Social Moment, the Regeneracy, at which time we will perhaps start bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia.

The Bush people will undoubtedly take advantage of the opportunity to go after the rest of the oil over there. But I do not see the second attack heralding any regeneracy. I think it is more likely that relations here at home will get considerably more strained with the resistance to the Bush administration growing and becoming considerably more vocal and active. This may well give the Bush people the pretext they desire to crack down upon it at which point things get really, really dark. I would say that regeneracy is still a ways off.

We may also decide that we've "had enough" of Corporate America's hijacking of our government, and demand its return to We The People.

When the American people "have enough" of corporatism, and if they get an opportunity to do something about it (remember, if the Bush people seize the opportunity to declare martial law, we may not have an election in 2004, or at least not a real one)...when the people have "had enough" AND they get an opportunity to vote in a real election, that will mark regeneracy. This phony War on Terrans is irrelevant to the real issues of the 4T. The establishment is trying to make it the central issue such that they guarantee their control into the 1T, but I do not see them succeeding.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

The second big attack will herald the 4T Social Moment, the Regeneracy, at which time we will perhaps start bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia.

The Bush people will undoubtedly take advantage of the opportunity to go after the rest of the oil over there. But I do not see the second attack heralding any regeneracy. I think it is more likely that relations here at home will get considerably more strained with the resistance to the Bush administration growing and becoming considerably more vocal and active. This may well give the Bush people the pretext they desire to crack down upon it at which point things get really, really dark. I would say that regeneracy is still a ways off.

We may also decide that we've "had enough" of Corporate America's hijacking of our government, and demand its return to We The People.

When the American people "have enough" of corporatism, and if they get an opportunity to do something about it (remember, if the Bush people seize the opportunity to declare martial law, we may not have an election in 2004, or at least not a real one)...when the people have "had enough" AND they get an opportunity to vote in a real election, that will mark regeneracy. This phony War on Terrans is irrelevant to the real issues of the 4T. The establishment is trying to make it the central issue such that they guarantee their control into the 1T, but I do not see them succeeding.

I, OTOH, believe that they will succeed in uniting Americans around the need to oppose any and all anti-American ideologies and groups - even if they do have to implement martial law to do so.

I, OTOH, believe that they will succeed in uniting Americans around the need to oppose any and all anti-American ideologies and groups - even if they do have to implement martial law to do so.

I, OTOH, believe that they will succeed in uniting Americans around the need to oppose any and all anti-American ideologies and groups - even if they do have to implement martial law to do so.

And on that note, having concluded that we are indeed in the earliest stages of 4T, and having some ideas concerning how the Regeneracy may unfold, I believe that I will now bid adieu to this website, at least for a while. Good-bye, all.

And on that note, having concluded that we are indeed in the earliest stages of 4T, and having some ideas concerning how the Regeneracy may unfold, I believe that I will now bid adieu to this website, at least for a while. Good-bye, all.

And on that note, having concluded that we are indeed in the earliest stages of 4T, and having some ideas concerning how the Regeneracy may unfold, I believe that I will now bid adieu to this website, at least for a while. Good-bye, all.

Originally Posted by jds1958xg

And on that note, having concluded that we are indeed in the earliest stages of 4T, and having some ideas concerning how the Regeneracy may unfold, I believe that I will now bid adieu to this website, at least for a while. Good-bye, all.

Yikes! First Buz Painter, and now you. Must be something in the air.

Anyway, take care, and come back soon.

Originally Posted by jds1958xg

And on that note, having concluded that we are indeed in the earliest stages of 4T, and having some ideas concerning how the Regeneracy may unfold, I believe that I will now bid adieu to this website, at least for a while. Good-bye, all.

Yikes! First Buz Painter, and now you. Must be something in the air.

Anyway, take care, and come back soon.

Originally Posted by jds1958xg

And on that note, having concluded that we are indeed in the earliest stages of 4T, and having some ideas concerning how the Regeneracy may unfold, I believe that I will now bid adieu to this website, at least for a while. Good-bye, all.

Yikes! First Buz Painter, and now you. Must be something in the air.

Anyway, take care, and come back soon.

Originally Posted by Marc Lamb

On the first item -- "1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance": Does the writer suppose that its been "winter" in Israel since the Black September group pulled off their little scheme in Munich during the 1972 Olympics?

No. It is the reaction of a society to current events that highlight the saecular season, not the events themselves.

One the second item -- "bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia": Does the writer suppose that America should have declared war on New York and Michigan for the Oklahoma City bombing?

Nah. I seriously do not believe that Governor George Pataki and(whomever the guv of Michigan is) were secretly in cahoots with Timmy McVeigh. I am far more certain the the House of Saud was involved in the 911 attacks-- at the very least in a "you have our blessing" sort of way. Their Boomer leaders do, after all, teach all their Xer and Millennial students that America and its infidelic freedoms are a great evil. What else must they expect will happen?

On the third item -- "Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties": Just how many of those precious "Constitutional liberties" do you reckon would have been trashed had the leaders in Oregon gotten their way with their massive socialized, cradle-to-grave healthcare plan? Plenty, I reckon. Or do you suppose that it would be a good thing to have some asshole bureaucrat telling you what doctor you're permitted to see, and when you can see him?

Um....they already are doing that Marc. The only difference is that it's not government bureaucrats, but assholes of the corporate variety who most indeed are telling people which doctors they can and cannot see, via "managed care". And not only that-- should you require hospitalization, your revered corporate asshole insurance companies can and do tell your M.D. when THEY think you are well enough to go home, whether you are really cured or not! Dont' believe me? Ask my Dad who has been in and out of the hospital seven times in as many months with the same goddamned pneumonia.

And speaking as someone who (for the time being) lacks health coverage, I would take Oregon's would-have-been, imperfect, single-payer system any day over the employer-based system we have now.

Of course, we weren't arguing about this sort of nonsense sixty years ago, but were sure were arguing about it eighty-five years ago!

No argument there.

Originally Posted by Marc Lamb

On the first item -- "1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance": Does the writer suppose that its been "winter" in Israel since the Black September group pulled off their little scheme in Munich during the 1972 Olympics?

No. It is the reaction of a society to current events that highlight the saecular season, not the events themselves.

One the second item -- "bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia": Does the writer suppose that America should have declared war on New York and Michigan for the Oklahoma City bombing?

Nah. I seriously do not believe that Governor George Pataki and(whomever the guv of Michigan is) were secretly in cahoots with Timmy McVeigh. I am far more certain the the House of Saud was involved in the 911 attacks-- at the very least in a "you have our blessing" sort of way. Their Boomer leaders do, after all, teach all their Xer and Millennial students that America and its infidelic freedoms are a great evil. What else must they expect will happen?

On the third item -- "Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties": Just how many of those precious "Constitutional liberties" do you reckon would have been trashed had the leaders in Oregon gotten their way with their massive socialized, cradle-to-grave healthcare plan? Plenty, I reckon. Or do you suppose that it would be a good thing to have some asshole bureaucrat telling you what doctor you're permitted to see, and when you can see him?

Um....they already are doing that Marc. The only difference is that it's not government bureaucrats, but assholes of the corporate variety who most indeed are telling people which doctors they can and cannot see, via "managed care". And not only that-- should you require hospitalization, your revered corporate asshole insurance companies can and do tell your M.D. when THEY think you are well enough to go home, whether you are really cured or not! Dont' believe me? Ask my Dad who has been in and out of the hospital seven times in as many months with the same goddamned pneumonia.

And speaking as someone who (for the time being) lacks health coverage, I would take Oregon's would-have-been, imperfect, single-payer system any day over the employer-based system we have now.

Of course, we weren't arguing about this sort of nonsense sixty years ago, but were sure were arguing about it eighty-five years ago!

No argument there.

Originally Posted by Marc Lamb

On the first item -- "1000 bodies become a repeating occurrance": Does the writer suppose that its been "winter" in Israel since the Black September group pulled off their little scheme in Munich during the 1972 Olympics?

No. It is the reaction of a society to current events that highlight the saecular season, not the events themselves.

One the second item -- "bombing the s&*t out of Saudi Arabia": Does the writer suppose that America should have declared war on New York and Michigan for the Oklahoma City bombing?

Nah. I seriously do not believe that Governor George Pataki and(whomever the guv of Michigan is) were secretly in cahoots with Timmy McVeigh. I am far more certain the the House of Saud was involved in the 911 attacks-- at the very least in a "you have our blessing" sort of way. Their Boomer leaders do, after all, teach all their Xer and Millennial students that America and its infidelic freedoms are a great evil. What else must they expect will happen?

On the third item -- "Oregon's lead in denouncing the destruction of our Constitutional liberties": Just how many of those precious "Constitutional liberties" do you reckon would have been trashed had the leaders in Oregon gotten their way with their massive socialized, cradle-to-grave healthcare plan? Plenty, I reckon. Or do you suppose that it would be a good thing to have some asshole bureaucrat telling you what doctor you're permitted to see, and when you can see him?

Um....they already are doing that Marc. The only difference is that it's not government bureaucrats, but assholes of the corporate variety who most indeed are telling people which doctors they can and cannot see, via "managed care". And not only that-- should you require hospitalization, your revered corporate asshole insurance companies can and do tell your M.D. when THEY think you are well enough to go home, whether you are really cured or not! Dont' believe me? Ask my Dad who has been in and out of the hospital seven times in as many months with the same goddamned pneumonia.

And speaking as someone who (for the time being) lacks health coverage, I would take Oregon's would-have-been, imperfect, single-payer system any day over the employer-based system we have now.

Of course, we weren't arguing about this sort of nonsense sixty years ago, but were sure were arguing about it eighty-five years ago!

No argument there.