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Thread: Crazy Russia - Page 20







Post#476 at 08-17-2012 06:24 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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08-17-2012, 06:24 PM #476
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But, you can get cheap health care!

Just don't start a punk rock band and F with fearless leader -

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/17/opinio...ict/index.html


Pussy Riot and Russia's surreal 'justice'

Moscow (CNN) -- There is no basic human right to barge into a church to make a political statement, jump around near the altar, and shout obscenities. But there is most certainly the right not to lose your liberty for doing so, even if the act is offensive.
But that is exactly what happened Friday. A court in Moscow sentenced the three members of the feminist punk band Pussy Riot to two years in prison.
In my two decades monitoring human rights in Russia I've never seen anything like the Pussy Riot case -- the media attention, the outpouring of public support, the celebrity statements for the detained and criminally charged punk band members.
The image of three young women facing down an inexorable system of unfair justice and an oppressive state has crystallized for many in the West what is wrong with human rights in Russia. To be sure, it is deeply troubling.
For me, even more shocking were the images of Stanislav Markelov, a human rights lawyer, lying on the sidewalk with the back of his head blown off in 2009, or the body of tax lawyer Sergei Magnitsky, who died in prison in 2009 after he blew the whistle on a massive government extortion scheme.

The Pussy Riot case shines a much needed, if highly disturbing, spotlight on the issue of freedom of expression in post-Soviet Russia
On February 21, four members of the group performed what they call a "punk prayer" in Moscow's Russian Orthodox Christ the Savior Cathedral. They danced around and shouted some words to their song, "Virgin Mary, Get Putin Out." The stunt lasted less than a minute before the women were forcibly removed.
The same day, a video widely shared on social media showed a montage of the stunt with the song spliced in. The song criticizes the Russian Orthodox Church's alleged close relationship with the Kremlin and the personally close relationship of President Vladimir V. Putin with the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church.
Three of the band members were tried on criminal "hooliganism" charges. Their trial was theater of the absurd. In their closing statements, the women and their lawyers delivered devastating critiques of the state of justice and civic freedoms in Russia.

During the Soviet era, the human rights landscape in Russia was stark. But since then the situation has been harder to figure out, often making it easier for outsiders simply to give the government a pass. But the devil is in the details.
It has been incredibly difficult to pin down any involvement of officials in the beatings and murders of investigative journalists and human rights activists. And the government, while not silencing civil society groups outright, tries to marginalize, discredit, and humiliate them, and crush them with heavy-handed bureaucracy, trumped-up accusations, threats and the like.
Whatever misdemeanor the three women incurred for their antics in the church should not have been transformed by the authorities into a criminal offense that in effect punishes them for their speech. It's typical, though, of how the authorities try to keep a lid on controversial issues. The Russian think tank SOVA has documented dozens of cases in recent years in which the authorities used the threat of extremism charges to silence critics.
This also isn't the first time Russian authorities have misused criminal legislation to stifle critical artistic expression. In 2010 a Moscow district court found the co-organizers of a controversial art exhibit guilty of the vague charge of "inciting religious hatred." The art exhibit organizers were fined.
By making the Pussy Riot band members await trial in jail for almost six months, the authorities made clear how they plan to set boundaries for political criticism.
After a winter of unprecedented, peaceful opposition protests, a dozen demonstrators whom the authorities claim were involved in a scuffle with police during a mass demonstration in May have been arrested and are being charged with crimes grossly disproportionate to their alleged actions. Police have searched opposition leaders' homes.
Laws rammed through Russia's parliament this summer sent more signals: criminal liability for leaders of nongovernmental organizations for "serious breaches" of new restrictive regulations; much tougher sanctions for violating rules on public assembly; and new restrictions on the Internet that could easily shut down big social networking sites. Critics of the Kremlin have been subject to vicious harassment, intimidation and grotesque public smear campaigns.
For years Russian human rights defenders have tried to draw attention to the lack of independence of the courts. With the unprecedented attention to the Pussy Riot trial, the surreal state of justice when political interests are at stake is there for all to see. What we really should be wondering isn't why Pussy Riot is so distinctive, but whether it's just the tip of the iceberg.
Too often, foreign governments have resorted to wishful thinking about the direction Russia is heading. Talking about human rights at a high level -- where all things in Russia are decided -- is unpleasant business. It might be hard, but Russia won't respect other governments if they shy away.
If three women in the defendants' cage had the courage to speak out about where Russia is headed, surely members of the international community should too. They, at least, won't be thrown in jail.
Yea, baby, let's rush over there - they ain't got no stinkin Obamacare there!

But at least we know who superman John Galt is -

"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#477 at 08-18-2012 04:12 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Heh. Too true about that.

Plus, in a place where cussing will get you thrown out of a restaurant, it's not a good idea to bust into the most famous church, climb up on the altar (also something that's not supposed to ever happen), and start liberally dropping the local equivalent of f-bombs. It's almost like they were trying to get in trouble.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#478 at 08-18-2012 05:35 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Heh. Too true about that.

Plus, in a place where cussing will get you thrown out of a restaurant, it's not a good idea to bust into the most famous church, climb up on the altar (also something that's not supposed to ever happen), and start liberally dropping the local equivalent of f-bombs. It's almost like they were trying to get in trouble.
I agree, they were, and it takes me back 45 years, it does. Only the costumes and location have changed.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#479 at 08-18-2012 11:38 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
I agree, they were, and it takes me back 45 years, it does. Only the costumes and location have changed.
Thing is, Badger, I suspect they're more than a bit pre-seasonal. At best, there's still another four or six years until the 2T starts in Russia. But it's a fair bet that the question of church as it relates to state is gonna feature at least a bit in that one.

Life is interesting when you pay attention.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#480 at 08-18-2012 11:46 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Heh. Too true about that.

Plus, in a place where cussing will get you thrown out of a restaurant, it's not a good idea to bust into the most famous church, climb up on the altar (also something that's not supposed to ever happen), and start liberally dropping the local equivalent of f-bombs. It's almost like they were trying to get in trouble.
Yea, that certainly deserves two years in a TB-infested Soviet-era hellhole.

Good to see your Anarchist tendencies have some restraints or at least can be bought off with some cheapo health care.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#481 at 08-19-2012 01:46 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Yea, that certainly deserves two years in a TB-infested Soviet-era hellhole.
Of course not. In some countries, they'd have been lucky to make it out of the holy place alive at all (not that their being torn apart by a screaming mob would be any more deserved than whatever other punishment). Deserve or not, though, behavior has consequences very strongly contingent on the social environment in which you're behaving. These ladies aimed to get punished, and they did. Good on their martyr selves.

That said, given a choice solely between two years contact with the tuberculosis virus (for which there are vaccines), and two years getting raped and beaten, I'd not say that the hellholes over here (you know, where you want to throw people who don't want to cooperate with your Grand Plan for protecting the status quo) are so obviously better than the ones over there.

Given the option, I'd prefer to do time in Norway or Finland, myself.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#482 at 08-19-2012 03:34 PM by Uzi [at joined Oct 2005 #posts 2,254]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Heh. Too true about that.

Plus, in a place where cussing will get you thrown out of a restaurant, it's not a good idea to bust into the most famous church, climb up on the altar (also something that's not supposed to ever happen), and start liberally dropping the local equivalent of f-bombs. It's almost like they were trying to get in trouble.
And it's not a good idea to stand in front of a tank on Tiananmen Square. The issue (as I see it) is the pretense that Russia is "more Western" than the hellholes to which you allude. It's not. Which is why Putin loves Bashir Assad. In addition to the sweetheart deals he no doubt has with Syria's leader, he also understands him, because he sees himself the same way, as a national savior. All of this G8 summit handholding that goes on with the Russians is a joke. Putin gets to use other counties' legitimacy to make himself look genuine. It's like when Gaddafi used to pontificate at the UN, as if he were an important world leader. Now where is he?
Last edited by Uzi; 08-19-2012 at 03:43 PM.
"It's easy to grin, when your ship's come in, and you've got the stock market beat. But the man who's worth while is the man who can smile when his pants are too tight in the seat." Judge Smails, Caddyshack.

"Every man with a bellyful of the classics is an enemy of the human race." Henry Miller.

1979 - Generation Perdu







Post#483 at 08-19-2012 07:28 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Uzi View Post
And it's not a good idea to stand in front of a tank on Tiananmen Square. The issue (as I see it) is the pretense that Russia is "more Western" than the hellholes to which you allude. It's not...
Dude. The rape cages are a US thing. Americans make jokes about them all the time. So what the hell is 'western', then? Finland?

I mean, Putin's a bastard. But so are pretty much all the rest of them. Why do you think they get along so well, face-to-face?
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#484 at 08-20-2012 04:27 AM by Uzi [at joined Oct 2005 #posts 2,254]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Dude. The rape cages are a US thing. Americans make jokes about them all the time. So what the hell is 'western', then? Finland?

I mean, Putin's a bastard. But so are pretty much all the rest of them. Why do you think they get along so well, face-to-face?
Why is all criticism of Russia deflected to criticism of the United States, the UK, etc.? I can criticize them all equally.The US has some pretty heinous human rights violations to its name but, to be fair, it never sent rock musicians to prison for two years for "hooliganism." The Sex Pistols got on a boat and rode past the Houses of Parliament in 1977, singing "God save the queen, her fascist regime, she made you a moron ..." No two year prison sentence there ...
"It's easy to grin, when your ship's come in, and you've got the stock market beat. But the man who's worth while is the man who can smile when his pants are too tight in the seat." Judge Smails, Caddyshack.

"Every man with a bellyful of the classics is an enemy of the human race." Henry Miller.

1979 - Generation Perdu







Post#485 at 08-20-2012 11:59 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Uzi View Post
Why is all criticism of Russia deflected to criticism of the United States, the UK, etc.? I can criticize them all equally.
People prefer to deflect, rather than just saying, "yeah, it sucks here, too". Criticizing them all equally is the right way to go, no doubt. Like I've said many a time, they're all bastards.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#486 at 08-20-2012 05:02 PM by Uzi [at joined Oct 2005 #posts 2,254]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
People prefer to deflect, rather than just saying, "yeah, it sucks here, too". Criticizing them all equally is the right way to go, no doubt. Like I've said many a time, they're all bastards.
But don't you feel that Lavrov is just extra full of shit for invoking human rights and democracy at every turn?
"It's easy to grin, when your ship's come in, and you've got the stock market beat. But the man who's worth while is the man who can smile when his pants are too tight in the seat." Judge Smails, Caddyshack.

"Every man with a bellyful of the classics is an enemy of the human race." Henry Miller.

1979 - Generation Perdu







Post#487 at 08-21-2012 01:38 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Uzi View Post
But don't you feel that Lavrov is just extra full of shit for invoking human rights and democracy at every turn?
Sure. Just as full of shit as Clinton. When I say that they're all bastards, I mean it.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#488 at 08-21-2012 03:52 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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As regards Pussy Riot in general, I made a point to pick the brain of a buddy of mine this morning. They're apparently the same group that painted the massive dick on Liteyniy bridge right before it was raised for the morning. They're not a 'band', so much as a 'protest art' group (a splinter of Voina, who did the "fuck for Medvedyev's successor" thing and the "throwing live cats at McDonald's staff" thing


).

Found a decent english write-up about this whole matter, too. Caveat Internetum, of course.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#489 at 08-30-2012 12:51 AM by Uzi [at joined Oct 2005 #posts 2,254]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Sure. Just as full of shit as Clinton. When I say that they're all bastards, I mean it.
And should be called on it. But, as I have pointed out many times, the US has a mechanism for rotating its leaders and tweaking its policies to avoid the Assad-like fate that awaits Russia's rulers. Think of Johnson in 1968 - he didn't run for another term. Or Nixon in 1974, he resigned. But what if Nixon had just fired some underlings, like Putin would have, and stayed on as president until, say, 1994? That's what creates revolutionary situations.
"It's easy to grin, when your ship's come in, and you've got the stock market beat. But the man who's worth while is the man who can smile when his pants are too tight in the seat." Judge Smails, Caddyshack.

"Every man with a bellyful of the classics is an enemy of the human race." Henry Miller.

1979 - Generation Perdu







Post#490 at 08-30-2012 08:27 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Uzi View Post
And should be called on it. But, as I have pointed out many times, the US has a mechanism for rotating its leaders and tweaking its policies to avoid the Assad-like fate that awaits Russia's rulers. Think of Johnson in 1968 - he didn't run for another term. Or Nixon in 1974, he resigned. But what if Nixon had just fired some underlings, like Putin would have, and stayed on as president until, say, 1994? That's what creates revolutionary situations.
Too true. On the other hand, say what you will about revolutionary situations -- they sure as hell knock the ruling elites out of control for at least a while. The American system, on the other hand, provides the rulers with an as-yet-impervious shield of apparently-shifting frontmen. Thanks to the widespread illusion of peoples' control over the political process, the American elites need not suffer the slightest worry about how they rule. I'd say the jury is still out as to whether that permanent, insulated ruling class represents an improvement over the occasional application of the french doctor's remedy to people like Nikolai II and Mussolini.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#491 at 10-16-2012 03:13 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Russia's pivot towards Asia

Article about the Russian Far East. My opinion is that the Kremlin could define Russia as a Pacific country as well as a European country.







Post#492 at 01-01-2013 01:37 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Juhana from Finland posted a comment to a blog I read on Eastern European turnings as she sees it:

"East already had their "crumbling of empire" days back in the nineties."

Which of course confirms what Justin'77 reported from Russia, and what seemed obvious to me at the time.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#493 at 01-01-2013 02:33 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Bad events happen in every turning

Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Juhana from Finland posted a comment to a blog I read on Eastern European turnings as she sees it:

"East already had their "crumbling of empire" days back in the nineties."

Which of course confirms what Justin'77 reported from Russia, and what seemed obvious to me at the time.
EXACTLY!!!

Yes.

Bad events can happen in any turning. The events themselves are not what determines the turning. After all, when America saw its White House burned by the Brits in 1814 we didn't "go 4T" for one day, no.
In 1814 we Americans were somewhere near the most euphoric part of the cycle, the 1T/2T cusp. Consider the America of circa 1965. America didn't go survivalist 4T over anything like the Watts riots circa 1965--instead we confedently loosened up as Vietnam and the inner city riots draggod on in the years afterwards. Euphoric nations expect the best in everything and become disappointed over time. It sews the seeds of the 3T. Bad events happen in all of the turnings.
As a student in the years before the theory was published by S and H, I read non theory related arguments to the level of hubris that young America had in taking on the hegemon Great Britian. And we were hubristic. President Jefferson had almost against his will secured great nation status for America with the Louisiana Purchase. We had grown from 13 colonies to 18 states by 1814. Surely the Canadians would love to be liberated from Britian and be just like us....

To be succinct the Russian cultural zone did not experience a true 4T in WWII. Millions killed in a war is horrific, but in this case it didn't modify the basic structure of the Stalinist state.
Last edited by herbal tee; 01-01-2013 at 02:50 PM.
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