I checked out the link to the Seattle story, and many posters there are saying the same thing I've been saying on this board for some time now. That is that the only way to come close to controlling gas prices is to reduce driving. One poster said it bluntly: We have to reduce our dependence on cars. That's all there is to it!

Are most Americans too stubborn to yet realize this? Seems that way to me. If anyone wonders why we should reduce our dependence on cars, think of this. There are many highways in and around large city that are very congested, and where rush hour now is nearly 24/7.

Away for a week & during my return yesterday (Vancouver) I noticed it hit our highest to date $1.30 litre plus 14 % tax!

Originally Posted by wanderer

Away for a week & during my return yesterday (Vancouver) I noticed it hit our highest to date $1.30 litre plus 14 % tax!

That's over C$5 / gallon, isn't it? The C$/US$ ratio is close to parity at this point, so how is petrol in BC over a dollar higher than in the lands to your south?

My condolences. Both Possum Town and the PRCamb. just hit $3 / gal this week.

Originally Posted by Brian Beecher

That is that the only way to come close to controlling gas prices is to reduce driving. One poster said it bluntly: We have to reduce our dependence on cars. That's all there is to it!

True in the short run. In the long run, our cars must also become more efficient. At the moment 70% of the energy in the car goes to waste heat. The demons of thermogoddammics demand a waste-heat offering for useful work, but it need not be anywhere near as inefficient as this. Likewise, 50 mi / gal is achievable if we prioritize it.

Are most Americans too stubborn to yet realize this?

No, they're too stubborn to let that knowledge stop them from doing as they please, at least as long as the credit cards hold out. Also, there are large portions of our economy that have been designed to rely on easy and cheap transportation. The Walton Empire, commonly known as Wal-mart, is one. The commuting cycle is another. There is no good reason why corporate offices should be located in centralized downtowns any longer, and in fact there are very good reasons why they should not be.

There are many highways in and around large city that are very congested, and where rush hour now is nearly 24/7.

Living in the Boston Metro as I do, I remember the Central Artery just before the Big Dig. The entire justification for the Dig, aside from the re-beautification of the city center, was the need to avoid just such a 24/7 traffic jam as you describe. I assumed that this was because the Artery, a poorly designed 1951 job, was one of the country's worst freeways.

Last March I had reason to be on the northwest side of the Capital Beltway at 4 pm on a non-holiday Sunday. Bumper. To. Bumper. How has it come to this?

As a not completely irrelevant aside, I note that Beijing is currently constructing the Sixth Ring Road Expressway and planning the Seventh. This is slightly misleading, as the First Ring Road is the circumferential road for the Forbidden City and the Second Ring Road encompasses the downtown district; the Third is the first highway we would think of as a "ring expressway". Nonetheless, O_O !

Prices for regular here now range from $2.999 to $3.099. They hovered around $2.999 for about a week before that.

Albuquerque - now up to $3.399

Originally Posted by catfishncod

That's over C$5 / gallon, isn't it? The C$/US$ ratio is close to parity at this point, so how is petrol in BC over a dollar higher than in the lands to your south?

My condolences. Both Possum Town and the PRCamb. just hit $3 / gal this week.

Yup, over $5.00/Gallon CND!! From my knowledge, exchange closed yesterday @ .91 C = $1 US. Its been pretty controversial considering B.C. has one of the highest gas costs compared to the Eastern Provinces across Canada who're paying less also!

I just tanked up within the past hour, paying $3.099, the highest I've paid since I got my Prius last summer. The station where I usually fill up, a Chevron, is the mainstream station with the lowest prices in my neighborhoods; most were running between $3.119 and $3.199.

Selling out is not an option.

"Indiana, facing a $1.8 billion gap in money needed for road improvements, negotiated a $3.85 billion deal with an Australian-Spanish consortium to lease and operate the Indiana Turnpike for 75 years. Voters expressed their displeasure, electing Democrats to replace a Republican-run House that signed off on the deal."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070520/ap_on_go_co/gas_tax

I would be interested to hear your assessment as to why corporate headquarters should no longer be located in central city downtowns. Does it have anything to do with what happened in NYC on 9-11-01? Remember, most headquartered had move to former farm fields long before then. Seems to me that high energy prices would inspire a move back to more centralization, which would probably have to happen if prices remain high over the long hall. And, yes, there is some evidence to suggest that many of us finally are modifying some of our driving habits due to the high prices.

Running on empty

Hit by high prices and fees, some gas station owners stop selling fuel

By THOMAS CONTENT
tcontent@journalsentinel.com

Posted: May 23, 2007

As gas prices hit another record last Friday, Jeff Curro couldn't take it anymore.
He wasn't a motorist at the pump fed up by the blur of numbers spinning higher as he filled his tank.
Curro is a gas station owner who has stopped selling gas to his own customers.
After selling gas at N. 124th and W. Burleigh streets for 20 years, Curro turned off his pumps at his Shell station in Brookfield when the price he was being asked to pay was just too much.
Including the wholesale cost of gas and other taxes and charges, he was being asked to pay $3.44 a gallon Friday, a day when the competing stations down the street were selling gasoline for $3.47.
"Three cents a gallon doesn't cut it," Curro said. "It doesn't pay the bills."
Add to that the money he loses every time a motorist uses a credit card at the pump, and there was no reason to keep selling gas, Curro said.
Credit card companies and banks get an average of 2.75% on every gallon of gas sold, and credit card processing fees now rank as the second-biggest expense for gas station operators, according to the National Association of Convenience Stores.
"The way I see it is, I'm doing all the work of providing the labor, the wages, the electricity, the lighting, the maintenance of the pumps, the repairs and the insurance, which is quite substantial," Curro said. "I'm doing all the work, and somebody else is getting fat on me."
Curro isn't alone in deciding to not sell gas anymore. Casey O'Gorman did the same thing. In business for 25 years near State Fair Park, his West Allis service station is now doing business exclusively as Auto Analyzers. The Shell name came down a few months back.
"I finally had to just pull the plug on it and say, 'I can't afford to do it anymore,' " O'Gorman said.
High wholesale prices

Curro and O'Gorman are leaving a relatively small and disappearing group of service station owners who both sell gas and repair cars.
Independent auto-repair shops face competition from car dealerships and quick-lube repair shops, and in the sale of gasoline, they compete against full-line convenience stores.
Most gas stations today double as convenience stores, and although they generate more than two-thirds of sales from gas, two-thirds of profit comes from in-store sales of cigarettes, drinks and food, according to the convenience store association.
When drivers are paying more, they think that means higher profits for the filling station, said Bob Bartlett, executive vice president of the Wisconsin Petroleum Marketers & Convenience Stores Association.
The case of the two Shell stations stopping sales of gas illustrates the challenges faced by independent station owners across the state, Bartlett said. Nine of 10 stations in the state are independently owned and run, he said.
Between Feb. 1 and Monday, Bartlett said, the average wholesale price paid by service stations in Milwaukee to buy gasoline rose from $1.66 to $2.94. Add in taxes paid to the federal and state governments, as well as transportation costs, and the average service station had to cover $3.47 on Monday, without charging any profit. On that day, stations were charging their customers $3.47 on average in Milwaukee, according to AAA's Daily Fuel Gauge Report.
"People are upset about oil and gas prices, but it's not this guy right here," Bartlett said of the independent gas station owner. "He's not OPEC. He's not refining it. He's buying it kind of like I am, right at the end of the line here."
Sales up, profit down

Curro has been thinking about shutting down his gas pumps for about a year, and he has complained to his supplier about prices.
When he shut down his pumps, he was charging $3.59 a gallon, 12 cents higher than the competing stations nearby.
"Even at $3.59, I was making 15 cents, but I was still giving 10 of those cents to MasterCard," he said.
Nationally, the Association of Convenience Stores estimates that sales rose 12% but profit fell 23% industrywide last year, and for the first time, credit card fees were higher than the industry's profit.
Lower margins on the sale of fuel and credit card fees were the two main factors behind the drop in profit, the association said, as profit margins on the sale of fuel dipped to their lowest point since 1983.
Until January, O'Gorman and the predecessors at S. 84th St. and W. Greenfield Ave. sold gasoline on that corner since 1938.
He says he never made much money selling gas but started seeing margins nosedive last year when gas prices rose.
"More and more, it was crowding out my real form of income," O'Gorman said, referring to car repairs.
"Then you listen to the public, and they say we're gouging them. Who needs to listen to that? I'd need to have my head examined."

Believe it or not, gas has dropped a bit here since this time last week, from $3.459 to $3.379

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Believe it or not, gas has dropped a bit here since this time last week, from $3.459 to $3.379

I filled up at $3.49 this AM. It was down from $3.65 earlier in the week. $3.65 is the highest I've seen around here. $4 gas now actually looks like it could occur here on a spike sometime this summer.

Originally Posted by Mikebert

I filled up at $3.49 this AM. It was down from $3.65 earlier in the week. $3.65 is the highest I've seen around here. $4 gas now actually looks like it could occur here on a spike sometime this summer.

I was in Tucson this week and gas is still $2.99, about the national average. I expect we'll see $4 briefly on the West Coast, but probably not nationwide -- we're already seeing some demand destruction at $3. I expect we'll see rationing before we see $4.

Originally Posted by Mr. Reed

He says he never made much money selling gas but started seeing margins nosedive last year when gas prices rose.
"More and more, it was crowding out my real form of income," O'Gorman said, referring to car repairs.
"Then you listen to the public, and they say we're gouging them. Who needs to listen to that? I'd need to have my head examined."

Combine this with the recently proposed "anti-gouging" legislation in Congress, and independent station owners (90% of gas stations) will find harder and harder to actually turn any profit at all. Result: fewer stations, which leads to shortages and rationing. 1970's, here we come!

Originally Posted by Finch

I was in Tucson this week and gas is still $2.99, about the national average. I expect we'll see $4 briefly on the West Coast, but probably not nationwide -- we're already seeing some demand destruction at $3. I expect we'll see rationing before we see $4.

Four dollars/gallon? Sure, but that would be the top for this year. Rationing? Not unless we go to war with Iran, and I really have my doubts that will ever get off the ground.

BTW, the range of prices for unleaded regular I've seen in SE Michigan this past week has been $3.36 to $3.56. Prices have fallen from the widespread peak of $3.59 the week before.

In other news, I'm taking the train again, first to Chicago, then to Kenosha. There, I'm packing up my fiance and moving her to Michigan (I'm driving the rental van back). It's much cheaper for me to ride the Metra to Kenosha than it is for her to drive to Chicago and back. Had I purchased my Amtrak ticket sooner, I would also have paid less than I would have for gas one way. As it stands, the price is still competitive with driving. Yay for what passes for good rail transport in the U.S.!

Originally Posted by The Pervert

Four dollars/gallon? Sure, but that would be the top for this year. Rationing? Not unless we go to war with Iran, and I really have my doubts that will ever get off the ground.

BTW, the range of prices for unleaded regular I've seen in SE Michigan this past week has been $3.36 to $3.56. Prices have fallen from the widespread peak of $3.59 the week before.

Note that I said national average, currently at $3.18 according to AAA. It would take a huge jump to make it to $4 nationwide. As I said, before that happens we'll see legislative intervention; in fact, it's already started. It wouldn't take the form of rationing initially: first, the anti-gouging statutes would be interpreted to represent an unofficial price cap, at which point many gas stations would simply stop selling gas. Then, as shortages mounted, rationing would be introduced, "for our own good."

Originally Posted by The Pervert

Four dollars/gallon? Sure, but that would be the top for this year. Rationing? Not unless we go to war with Iran, and I really have my doubts that will ever get off the ground.

BTW, the range of prices for unleaded regular I've seen in SE Michigan this past week has been $3.36 to $3.56. Prices have fallen from the widespread peak of $3.59 the week before.

This time last month I'd have said (and probably did say, somewhere) you betcha. Now I'm less certain. The price of regular at the neighborhood pump peaked two or three weeks ago... now it's back down to $3.259.

America's energy woes remind me of Mousketeer Surprise Day: Anything Can Happen And It Usually Does.

-Gak!-

The boys and I just got back from our visa-obtaining jaunt to Helsinki. Since we elected to drive, the 500(?)-km one-way necessitated a fill-up on the Suomi side of the border.

Price tag? 1.359 Euro per liter!!

I had neither the heart to calc that back down to $/gal at the pump, nor the intestinal fortitude to keep the trigger depressed once the euro-roller had hit 50.00. Now, safe once more at home, I plug the numbers to find that a normal Finnish price for euro95-octane is $6.92/gallon.

Again, -gak!-

The first ПТК station we passed once we got back over the border, with its still-steady 19.30rubles/liter pricetag nearly brought tears of joy and relief to my eyes.

The price of petrol around here is now 140 cents per liter for unleaded or around USD5.30 a gallon. If it wasn't for fuel tax it would be around 100 cents or USD3.80 a gallon.

Katrina redux?

We get to find out again what happens when a Cat-2+ windstorm makes a direct hit on a major oil-producing area. Except in this case it's not in the Gulf of Mexico, it's in the Gulf of Oman, off the Arabian Peninsula.

The last time a hurricane (called a 'cyclone' in the Pacific) hit the Gulf of Oman was, well, never. (At least not since wind-speed records have been kept.) It's highly unlikely that facilities in Oman or elsewhere in the gulf were built to withstand 150kph winds or 10m storm surges. Already all Persian Gulf shipping operations are shut down, and it may take several days to restart them. Enjoy your $3 gas while you can...

For the first time in months....

Regular gas, below three dollars a gallon at $2.999.

Oh happy day

Originally Posted by Justin '77

-Gak!-

The boys and I just got back from our visa-obtaining jaunt to Helsinki. Since we elected to drive, the 500(?)-km one-way necessitated a fill-up on the Suomi side of the border.

Price tag? 1.359 Euro per liter!!

I had neither the heart to calc that back down to $/gal at the pump, nor the intestinal fortitude to keep the trigger depressed once the euro-roller had hit 50.00. Now, safe once more at home, I plug the numbers to find that a normal Finnish price for euro95-octane is $6.92/gallon.

Again, -gak!-

The first ПТК station we passed once we got back over the border, with its still-steady 19.30rubles/liter pricetag nearly brought tears of joy and relief to my eyes.

Helsinki, huh? Do tell what this city is like - I'll be there in forty five days!

Originally Posted by Seminomad

Helsinki, huh? Do tell what this city is like - I'll be there in forty five days!

Not bad. The entire place is built on rocks and piles of rocks, with a bit of soil in the low places. The bay is worth seeing (the zoo is pretty good); the surrounding countryside is pretty unlike anything I've seen in North America. As for the city itself -- not particularly crowded by European standards; not particularly big; not particularly old (also by european standards). I could say, 'comfortable'.

Frankly, as I tell people, I lived in Portland; it's pretty tough for a city to impress me. It's nice enough and all, but Helsinki wasn't particularly -- "wow". The people are great, but the city?...
And the cost of everything was a big negative.

What's going to bring you out that way?