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Thread: Gas Tracker - Page 19







Post#451 at 11-12-2007 11:23 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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I filled up Saturday at 3.099 here in Albuquerque. If I had stopped to fill up a week earlier I'd have spent 2.959.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#452 at 11-12-2007 03:51 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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I filled up yesterday, paying $3.059. Last week, I paid $2.855.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#453 at 11-12-2007 05:27 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,281]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
I filled up yesterday, paying $3.059. Last week, I paid $2.855.
Regular gas out here is now up to $3.199. This, at a time of year when gas is usually headed down. I heard on the radio that some economists believe that the price of gasoline will DOUBLE by next summer!
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#454 at 11-12-2007 06:13 PM by Finch [at In the belly of the Beast joined Feb 2004 #posts 1,734]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
I heard on the radio that some economists believe that the price of gasoline will DOUBLE by next summer!
Not bloody likely -- that would put crude at a sustained price of over $200/barrel. At that point, we'd have a wholesale collapse of the industrial economy (which has more than 60% of the total crude consumption.)

As for "some economists", you know the old joke: "if you put 3 economists in a room, you'll get 4 opinions."
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Post#455 at 11-12-2007 06:18 PM by Finch [at In the belly of the Beast joined Feb 2004 #posts 1,734]
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Quote Originally Posted by Flyingeye76 View Post
Question, why can't the government mandate sales of standard gas vehicals end say in 4 years?
1) It would immediately hand the market to Toyota et al -- political suicide.

2) It wouldn't make much difference in the near term: people only buy a new car every 5 years on average. It would take over 20 years to replace ~95% of the vehicles on the road.
Yes we did!







Post#456 at 11-13-2007 12:37 PM by Andy '85 [at Texas joined Aug 2003 #posts 1,465]
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The consensus around Houston is that unleaded regular is around $2.89 and rising week after week.

So far, I'm doing my part in only driving for work purposes. Sure, it might take an hour each way for commute, but I live with my parents currently, and the cost of renting a place significantly closer to work far exceeds the cost it takes for me to travel by car. Otherwise, I rarely, almost never, drive for leisure.

Although, this has given me a thought. Now that I am more or less associated with the petroleum industry, by virtue of my employment, I wonder how long it will be until the forces of economics will put me out of a job. I bet some of the more liberally-minded members are more than eager to say "not soon enough!".
Right-Wing liberal, slow progressive, and other contradictions straddling both the past and future, but out of touch with the present . . .

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That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know." - Donald Rumsfeld







Post#457 at 11-13-2007 03:34 PM by Finch [at In the belly of the Beast joined Feb 2004 #posts 1,734]
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Quote Originally Posted by Flyingeye76 View Post
Well I believe Chevy already has alternative \ efficient versions of their vehicials including SUV's.
Yes, they do, but they don't even break out hybrid sales from their conventional engine sales, which leads me to believe the total numbers are extremely small.

Here's the reported sales for October:

Code:
Toyota Prius       13158
Toyota Camry        3511
Honda Civic         2286
Ford Escape         2084
Lexus RX 400h       1392
Nissan Altima        927
Toyota Highlander    596
Honda Accord         243
Lexus LS600hL        175
Lexus GS 450h         71
I'd say Toyota owns the market. (FYI, those numbers represent about 10% of Toyota's vehicle sales for the month.)
Yes we did!







Post#458 at 11-14-2007 09:08 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,715]
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Quote Originally Posted by Flyingeye76 View Post
But that proves my point. The technology not only exist, but is in production. However standard gas vehicles are still the ones being pushed and thus keeping us dependant on Oil. To sound conspiratorial I think this is due to the oil companies.
You're talking about an emerging technology. No company is willing to just put out something new without limiting their potential for loss. Remember, they have to warranty thees things and they have to defend against lawsuits if something nasty and unexpected occurs.

Hybrids will be much more common in the next 5 years, but the follow-on technologies are more important: plug-in hybrids and all electrics. We're still waiting for batteries to get better before they become common.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#459 at 11-14-2007 04:02 PM by Finch [at In the belly of the Beast joined Feb 2004 #posts 1,734]
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Quote Originally Posted by Flyingeye76 View Post
But that proves my point. The technology not only exist, but is in production. However standard gas vehicials are still the ones being pushed and thus keeping us dependant on Oil. To sound conspiratorial I think this is due to the oil companies.
In production, yes, but not in high volume. Toyota sells every Prius they make and then some; Ford has a waiting list for the Escape that's YEARS long. As M&L says, they're ramping up, but very very slowly. (Even the Prius took years to get the market share it now has.)

They (the Big 3 domestic manufacturers) are poster children for moribund business structures and total risk aversion. No conspiracy required, just foot-dragging.
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Post#460 at 11-14-2007 04:14 PM by Finch [at In the belly of the Beast joined Feb 2004 #posts 1,734]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
You're talking about an emerging technology. No company is willing to just put out something new without limiting their potential for loss. Remember, they have to warranty thees things and they have to defend against lawsuits if something nasty and unexpected occurs.
Exactly. The "standard gas vehicals" that are "still being pushed" are cash cows for the Big 3: very little design innovation required, just tons of steel and the money rolls in. Until the margins on SUVs drop significantly, they won't stop pushing them.

BTW, the 1st-generation (2001) Priuses are finally starting to need battery pack replacements. It would appear that Toyota massively "overengineered" the batteries: they last well over 200,000 miles. And by now, the cost of replacement has dropped below $1500.
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Post#461 at 11-14-2007 11:55 PM by Finch [at In the belly of the Beast joined Feb 2004 #posts 1,734]
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Quote Originally Posted by Flyingeye76 View Post
But you two are proving exactly my point. Both the want and the production is ready, yet the big companies continue to force outdated technology on us for no reason other than forcing people to buy more gas.
Nobody is forcing you to buy anything. You're free to buy a new or used Prius. The Big 3 couldn't care less how much or how little gas you use, just that you make money for them. They are happy to give the customers what the customers want, where "what the customer wants" is defined as "what customers will pay huge markups for". Thousands of people were willing to pay above list for a Prius initially, but now they're available at retail. Meanwhile, millions of people are still willing to pay ridiculously inflated prices for SUVs, which don't cost any more to build than trucks, but sell for $10-20k more.
Yes we did!







Post#462 at 11-15-2007 11:26 PM by Brian Beecher [at Downers Grove, IL joined Sep 2001 #posts 2,937]
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Why we need to reduce auto dependency

I have said many times on these boards that it's not enough just to reduce gas consumption through hybrid vehicles. I have also said that we should attempt to reduce auto dependency as well, but nobody seems to be talking about this. And just in case you wonder why I keep bringing this up, anyone who has been marooned for extended periods of time on clogged highways that are torn up one way or another for the majority of the year should be convincing enough. And while we are now talking a big line on global warming, we really aren't walking the walk very well. More cars and more development spread over a larger area not only creates more gas in the atmosphere, but it also leaves area with no place for water to go to after storms, creating more flooding. We cannot continue to build our way out of congestion by adding more highways forever. And on expressways and other roads near major population centers, it now seems as if rush hour is damn near 24/7.

It is no doubt a constant occurrence for some people to be late for their jobs or other committments because of being stuck in traffic jams, many often created by construction that's to pervasive that it has virtually become the third certainty along with death and taxes. When are we going to wake up and reailze that we can't go on doing the same old thing forever?

Better public transit would also aid in correcting some of the pathologies caused by increased isolation, and an environment where people could do more walking could help ease the obesity problem. But yet the pols never seem to touch the subject even to encourage the public to take the steps to do less driving. Does Bush really want to see the gasoline engine become as outdated as the rotary telephone, as he once said?

I'm not advocating totally replacing cars with mass transit, but to level the playing field to make the latter a more viable alternative, at least for work commutes. If nearly everybody didn't have to drive to work by him/herself five days a week, lots of gasoline could be saved, and the planet can lead toward becoming cleaner. But so far it seems as though we have refused to even consider it.







Post#463 at 11-15-2007 11:53 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,715]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Beecher View Post
I have said many times on these boards that it's not enough just to reduce gas consumption through hybrid vehicles. I have also said that we should attempt to reduce auto dependency as well, but nobody seems to be talking about this...

... If nearly everybody didn't have to drive to work by him/herself five days a week, lots of gasoline could be saved, and the planet can lead toward becoming cleaner. But so far it seems as though we have refused to even consider it.
Here's something really novel. I hope it's real. A car that runs on compressed air.

Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#464 at 11-16-2007 03:23 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,281]
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My feeling is that it's all about marketing. In America, "better" has historically meant "bigger... faster... more powerful"... must be something in the water here. So when updating cars to be sold in the States, the auto manufacturers... both foreign and domestic... have almost always advertised the new model according to the formula that has worked in the past.

Myself, I always preferred "sleek... stylish... agile" over raw power. I bought my Mustang GT more because it was one of the few cars in its price range that would give me all of the above, with a manual transmission rather than a slushbox Sure, the 300 horses are fun, but if the car only had 200, and got 25 mpg instead of 18, I'd have been just fine with it.

I wonder, if gas goes to $7 per gallon, whether Toyota will bring back the Celica???
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#465 at 11-16-2007 03:30 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,281]
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Quote Originally Posted by Flyingeye76 View Post
To add another element to this debate. Like a lot of American's I'm a lower class citizen who has to buy his vehicials used. The more these fuel-efficent cars get on the market, the greater odds that we poorer people can get access to these vehicials. Unless something really improves in my life I'll probably have my 1995 Pontiac for another 5-10 years. I hope by them I can at least pick up a bio-disele vehicial or maybe even a good electric or maybe, just maybe a hydrogen car.
Stepping beside the point, why have you branded yourself... or allowed others to brand you... a "lower-class citizen" who "can only afford to buy used"? It isn't where you come from, or even necessarily what you are today, but where you'll go tomorrow. Fuel-efficient cars might improve the world we live in, but only you can choose your destiny.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#466 at 11-16-2007 07:57 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
Stepping beside the point, why have you branded yourself... or allowed others to brand you... a "lower-class citizen" who "can only afford to buy used"? It isn't where you come from, or even necessarily what you are today, but where you'll go tomorrow. Fuel-efficient cars might improve the world we live in, but only you can choose your destiny.
The term "lower-class citizen" is unfortunate -- "lower-income" would be more descriptive and accurate.Wayne's income is limited because he's in school. His point is important -- most Americans buy used, and there aren't many used Toyota Priuses on the market.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#467 at 11-16-2007 09:32 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,715]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
-- most Americans buy used, and there aren't many used Toyota Priuses on the market.
There is a rule that applies generally to all new technologies The idea applies to personal computers and HDTV as much as it does to hybrid cars. There are always a few true enthusiasts that are willing to be early-adopters, who will pay the always demanded higher price for new and unique then pay again to fix the not-ready-for-prime-time item after they own it. Companies need to recoup development costs, hence the high prices, and limit how much is spent on development to begin with, hence the lack of reliability and/or utility. Unfortunately, there is no other high-technology product launch model except government mandate.

After the bleeding edge becomes simply the leading edge, the enthusiasts give way to the forward thinkers, who still pay a bit extra, but get a good product that's state of the art. They also outnumber the enthusiasts by an order of magnitude or two, so they are the ones that make the product known by using it and showing their friends. Assuming the product is desirable, the next stage is mass production.

As far as hybrids are concerned, we're still in the second stage. Think of them as the PCs of the early 1980s. We can transition from the second stage to the third at any time. Hopefully, the transition will be as rapid as the PC revolution.
Last edited by Marx & Lennon; 11-16-2007 at 09:54 AM.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#468 at 11-16-2007 10:38 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Thumbs up Unfortunate son

Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
The term "lower-class citizen" is unfortunate -- "lower-income" would be more descriptive and accurate.Wayne's income is limited because he's in school. His point is important -- most Americans buy used, and there aren't many used Toyota Priuses on the market.
Pish-tosh. He was most descriptive and accurate to describe the matter in terms of class rather than the Commercial Republic's governmental weaselling "lower-income".

My income has plummeted to "lower-income" as more and more of my time is spent provisioning for the aged parent. But, I don't think my class in Commercial Republican whispered terms or blatant Grand Ducal terms has changed a whit. I am still landed and educated as I was before.

Do you also divide the Crown of Creation and the lower orders of Generations by the quantity of their annual income? I think not, Ms. Genser!!! Is your daughter a Millennial or "lower-incomed"?







Post#469 at 11-16-2007 11:31 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari View Post
Pish-tosh. He was most descriptive and accurate to describe the matter in terms of class rather than the Commercial Republic's governmental weaselling "lower-income".

My income has plummeted to "lower-income" as more and more of my time is spent provisioning for the aged parent. But, I don't think my class in Commercial Republican whispered terms or blatant Grand Ducal terms has changed a whit. I am still landed and educated as I was before.

Do you also divide the Crown of Creation and the lower orders of Generations by the quantity of their annual income? I think not, Ms. Genser!!! Is your daughter a Millennial or "lower-incomed"?
My point is simple. High and high-middle income people can afford new cars. People with lower incomes generally buy used (or take out 6 year loans).

According to the distribution of household income in the United States, my daughter and I, based on my salary as a Federal government analyst (high five figures) and on my net worth (primarily my home and my retirement savings), would be "upper middle". I could thus afford to buy a new car in 2006, to replace my 10-year-old Chevy. Someone whose income is in the bottom third probably would have hung onto the 10-year-old Chevy longer; it still ran fine.

Of course, my daughter has little income of her own, but her status as a minor dependent means that my economic status is conferred to her.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#470 at 11-16-2007 11:32 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Flyingeye wants a biodiesel. I believe there are people today who buy diesel-powered pickups and convert them to biodiesel and then offer to remove the local restaurants' leftover cooking grease for them either free or cheap. I find that a very elegant solution, with the added bonus of being grass-roots, bottom-up, and not dependent on a huge centralized infrastructure.

My other car, BTW, is a pair of walking shoes, because I chose one of the two only walkable neighborhoods in Albuquerque and it was affordable at the time. (Gentrifying rapidly, though, and that's one of the reasons why.)
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#471 at 11-16-2007 11:32 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,016]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
The term "lower-class citizen" is unfortunate -- "lower-income" would be more descriptive and accurate.Wayne's income is limited because he's in school. His point is important -- most Americans buy used, and there aren't many used Toyota Priuses on the market.
In the last 2T, social class in America became more a cultural distinction than a distinction between those who have and those who lack. It was a distinction in style more than in means -- the distinction between using one's wealth or credit line to travel to Europe for the culture or to spend the money on an RV, the latter because one dreads the prospect of using unfamiliar and 'threatening' toilet facilities or finding no country music on the radio.

Social class was not so much that one achieved one's dreams or collected status symbols; it was instead what dreams one had. It's the distinction between going to Las Vegas or to Vienna -- from greater Boston. Both destinations can be similarly expensive.

The poor in America must, of course, compete for the cast-offs of the non-poor. A huge and profitable industry exists to exploit that fact. Such is the American way of life, if not the human condition. But that said, it is best that those who do the work have a stake in the system. Dubya, of course, doesn't have a clue. He seems to believe that prosperity is little more than the organized looting of natural resources and the enrichment of those who manage that looting.

The cultural divide between sophistication and crudity remains -- but increasingly, those who have thought themselves middle-class have been priced out of choices that they once had. That will likely force 4T changes in economic priorities.







Post#472 at 11-16-2007 12:40 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,715]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
... The poor in America must, of course, compete for the cast-offs of the non-poor. A huge and profitable industry exists to exploit that fact. Such is the American way of life, if not the human condition. But that said, it is best that those who do the work have a stake in the system. Dubya, of course, doesn't have a clue. He seems to believe that prosperity is little more than the organized looting of natural resources and the enrichment of those who manage that looting...
Here's another example of moving away from a model that's repugnant. Freecycling is a nation-wide service that has those in need getting what others need to unload. Call it recycling without the middle man. You may or may not have a group near you. I have one nearby, and I don't live anywhere near a major metropolis.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#473 at 11-16-2007 01:14 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,281]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
In the last 2T, social class in America became more a cultural distinction than a distinction between those who have and those who lack. It was a distinction in style more than in means -- the distinction between using one's wealth or credit line to travel to Europe for the culture or to spend the money on an RV, the latter because one dreads the prospect of using unfamiliar and 'threatening' toilet facilities or finding no country music on the radio.

Social class was not so much that one achieved one's dreams or collected status symbols; it was instead what dreams one had. It's the distinction between going to Las Vegas or to Vienna -- from greater Boston. Both destinations can be similarly expensive.

The poor in America must, of course, compete for the cast-offs of the non-poor. A huge and profitable industry exists to exploit that fact. Such is the American way of life, if not the human condition. But that said, it is best that those who do the work have a stake in the system. Dubya, of course, doesn't have a clue. He seems to believe that prosperity is little more than the organized looting of natural resources and the enrichment of those who manage that looting.

The cultural divide between sophistication and crudity remains -- but increasingly, those who have thought themselves middle-class have been priced out of choices that they once had. That will likely force 4T changes in economic priorities.
Agreed.

I have always bought new cars... except my first car, which would have been new if not for the '80 Carter Credit Squeeze. (I traded in for a new car ten months later). This is largely because my grey-flannel-suit-wearing Silent Dad bought new cars, and traded in every three years or so.

Fairly or not, I've always thought of used cars as tacky... and even today would prefer taking the bus to driving a seriously old car. That's a cultural thing... correlated with, but not specific to, income per se.

Even if middle-income people end up priced out of many of their hopes and dreams during the 4T (think young couples, whose parents are nurses or engineers, looking for a single-family home today in Northern Virginia), such circumstances will not suddenly cause them to define themselves as "poor", and adopt the cultural attributes of those who do.

They may be forced to make some compromises, such as my grandparents did during the Depression, my parents in our mid-70s move to California, or as I did during and after my multiple-layoff Ohio period. However they'll think of such as temporary setbacks, not as identity-defining experiences.
Last edited by Roadbldr '59; 11-16-2007 at 01:26 PM.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#474 at 11-16-2007 03:45 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
Here's another example of moving away from a model that's repugnant. Freecycling is a nation-wide service that has those in need getting what others need to unload. Call it recycling without the middle man. You may or may not have a group near you. I have one nearby, and I don't live anywhere near a major metropolis.
I use it all the time, both to get and to give. A lot more of the latter since I'm uncluttering. I highly recommend it.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#475 at 11-16-2007 03:48 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
Agreed.

I have always bought new cars... except my first car, which would have been new if not for the '80 Carter Credit Squeeze. (I traded in for a new car ten months later). This is largely because my grey-flannel-suit-wearing Silent Dad bought new cars, and traded in every three years or so.

Fairly or not, I've always thought of used cars as tacky... and even today would prefer taking the bus to driving a seriously old car. That's a cultural thing... correlated with, but not specific to, income per se.

Even if middle-income people end up priced out of many of their hopes and dreams during the 4T (think young couples, whose parents are nurses or engineers, looking for a single-family home today in Northern Virginia), such circumstances will not suddenly cause them to define themselves as "poor", and adopt the cultural attributes of those who do.

They may be forced to make some compromises, such as my grandparents did during the Depression, my parents in our mid-70s move to California, or as I did during and after my multiple-layoff Ohio period. However they'll think of such as temporary setbacks, not as identity-defining experiences.
My GI dad bought a new car every year. When I started working, used cars were all I could afford, and they ran very poorly. This was in the late 70s-early 80s. However, I keep my cars forever and ever and find my idea car is the battered clunker with the million dollar motor. Or why my Honda dealership has a permanent reservation for me and my car.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.
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