Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

... I have always bought new cars... except my first car, which would have been new if not for the '80 Carter Credit Squeeze. (I traded in for a new car ten months later). This is largely because my grey-flannel-suit-wearing Silent Dad bought new cars, and traded in every three years or so.

Fairly or not, I've always thought of used cars as tacky... and even today would prefer taking the bus to driving a seriously old car. That's a cultural thing... correlated with, but not specific to, income per se.

Even if middle-income people end up priced out of many of their hopes and dreams during the 4T (think young couples, whose parents are nurses or engineers, looking for a single-family home today in Northern Virginia), such circumstances will not suddenly cause them to define themselves as "poor", and adopt the cultural attributes of those who do.

They may be forced to make some compromises, such as my grandparents did during the Depression, my parents in our mid-70s move to California, or as I did during and after my multiple-layoff Ohio period. However they'll think of such as temporary setbacks, not as identity-defining experiences.

My GI dad bought a new car every year. When I started working, used cars were all I could afford, and they ran very poorly. This was in the late 70s-early 80s. However, I keep my cars forever and ever and find my idea car is the battered clunker with the million dollar motor. Or why my Honda dealership has a permanent reservation for me and my car.

I rarely if ever buy new. The last new car I bought was a 1984 Saab, because I got a great deal on it. Since then, everything has been a year or two old, but in perfect condition. What I save more than compensates for the lack of newness.

I tend to drive mine until they stop being cars, so they're going to be old for most of the time I own them. My current car is a 2001 Audi A4, with 165,000 miles on it. I expect to drive it until it hits 300,000 miles, at the very least.

Part of what keeps me in new cars is the fear of getting priced out of them... should I fail to save enough for an adequate down payment... and being forced to either buy used or deplete my savings account.

I can think, however, of one situation where I might prefer to buy a used car over new. If the car model I had my eye on was either discontinued... or replaced with a new body style that I didn't care for.

Earlier this year, I considered replacing my 2000 BMW 3-series with a year-old certified "pre-owned" 2006 model. This was because I found the new 2007 model somewhat less appealing than the car it replaced... and I REALLY didn't care for the fact that the new model comes with runflat tires, and NO SPARE .

I ended up going with the Mustang largely because I couldn't find a CPO '06 Bimmer with a manual transmission, in a color other than silver.

Originally Posted by Flyingeye76

I understand Jenny and Kevin's concern of my usage of the term lower class to myself. I noticed how quick the Boomers in my life are quick to come down on any undue negative talk and it is something I do appreciate about their generation.

What I meant by "lower class" was a reference of economics, not character. This is in line with middle and upper class. Living with my parents we able to have a combined upper lower class standard of living. Personally that's why I have a hard time calling myself poor because I've been able to afford some luxuries in life, and there are a lot of people worse off then me who are really poor. This isn't because I'm a student though. I've always been at min.wage level of an employee since I've started. However my slow accumalation of credits is an attempt to rise a little above M.Wage, although I'm not sure if an associates or even a bachlors degree makes a difference anymore. But another reason for my continuion of education is to break our a family barrier in education. None of the males in my father's family have graduated HS, including myself. Yet I want to be the first male to get a college degree.

I find myself in an strange and increasing gulf between the have's and the have not's. Not only in the US but world wide. On one hand I see a lot of people living in substandard living conditions and object poverty. Yet on the other hand I see a society both in Urban America and throughout the world where everyone is expected to pay (equal to US) 50-100 per meal, 5k for a article of clothing, and 200 to 1000 per night in a hotel.

Normally I wouldn't hijack my own thread like this. But for once I believe it all is related to the theory. Money, limited resources, and levels of living standards all will be important plays in the years ahead.

We will find out soon enough what matters and what doesn't. Learning is valuable in any time. Meeting basic needs has always been a good strategy of survival. Living within one's means is a necessity for anyone who wishes to preserve any credibility. Gouging, fleecing, and scamming are bad for long-term survival.

The dirty little secret is that the $200-$1000 hotel stay is for those people who now need not concern themselves with the cost. $50-$100 a meal? I was able to spend far less in San Francisco, of all places, this September, and I stayed away from fast-food places. I actually had seafood, which is always more expensive than hamburger. $5k for an article of clothing? Legitimate for some, like people in the entertainment industry... but there are beter ways to spend the money.

Like retirement savings.

Being able to live on modest means will increasingly demonstrate credibility. It will demonstrate that one isn't a sucker for status symbols and that one gets one's living by honest means. "Honest" implies a higher standard than approval by economic and bureaucratic elites or by their political stooges.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

We will find out soon enough what matters and what doesn't. Learning is valuable in any time. Meeting basic needs has always been a good strategy of survival. Living within one's means is a necessity for anyone who wishes to preserve any credibility. Gouging, fleecing, and scamming are bad for long-term survival.

The dirty little secret is that the $200-$1000 hotel stay is for those people who now need not concern themselves with the cost. $50-$100 a meal? I was able to spend far less in San Francisco, of all places, this September, and I stayed away from fast-food places. I actually had seafood, which is always more expensive than hamburger. $5k for an article of clothing? Legitimate for some, like people in the entertainment industry... but there are beter ways to spend the money.

Like retirement savings.

Being able to live on modest means will increasingly demonstrate credibility. It will demonstrate that one isn't a sucker for status symbols and that one gets one's living by honest means. "Honest" implies a higher standard than approval by economic and bureaucratic elites or by their political stooges.

Agreed. A typical hotel stay for me is well under $100 per night. I eat dinner out almost every night... because I live alone and don't especially enjoy it, I'd prefer to be around other people... and typically spend about $15-20 including tip. And the most expensive article of clothing I own is a $400 leather coat I bought on sale at Wilson's in 2000 for $79.99.

According to MSN, Americans bought more Toyota Priuses in 2007 than Ford Explorers. That is a change of behavior caused by higher gas prices (and growing awareness about global warming).

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

According to MSN, Americans bought more Toyota Priuses in 2007 than Ford Explorers. That is a change of behavior caused by higher gas prices (and growing awareness about global warming).

Or it could be due to the fact that a Prius, like all Toyotas, is solidly built, while an Explorer, like all Fords, is a POS. As evidence, I present the fact that Toyota exceeded Ford in all US vehicle sales last year.

The notion that people are switching from Explorers to Priuses is laughable. They are totally different markets. A Prius fits about 2.7 tofu addicts, while an Explorer fits about 17 Cheezy-Poof junkies with room for a dozen cases of Bud. The Explorer driver is paying an extra $10k over a sedan so that he can run people off the road; the Prius driver is paying an extra $10k so that he can show how high and holy he is.

Originally Posted by Finch

The notion that people are switching from Explorers to Priuses is laughable. They are totally different markets. A Prius fits about 2.7 tofu addicts, while an Explorer fits about 17 Cheezy-Poof junkies with room for a dozen cases of Bud. The Explorer driver is paying an extra $10k over a sedan so that he can run people off the road; the Prius driver is paying an extra $10k so that he can show how high and holy he is.

I can't speak for the Ford Explorer driver. I am a Prius driver. I paid an extra $5K over the cost of a similarly equipped Camry (not $10K) because I was sick of driving tiny econo boxes and I love the bells and whistles of the Prius, as well as the very good gas mileage (45 mpg all-over, 50 on the highway). It's also a Toyota, which means it doesn't break down.

Also, I am often driving myself, who enjoys tofu but goes crazy over chocolate, and four middle-schoolers, or two adults and three middle-schoolers. It can fit five; it is only slightly smaller than a Camry. It is a fairly average-sized sedan.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

I can't speak for the Ford Explorer driver. I am a Prius driver. I paid an extra $5K over the cost of a similarly equipped Camry (not $10K) because I was sick of driving tiny econo boxes and I love the bells and whistles of the Prius, as well as the very good gas mileage (45 mpg all-over, 50 on the highway). It's also a Toyota, which means it doesn't break down.

Also, I am often driving myself, who enjoys tofu but goes crazy over chocolate, and four middle-schoolers, or two adults and three middle-schoolers. It can fit five; it is only slightly smaller than a Camry. It is a fairly average-sized sedan.

I should have known that there are enough INTPs on this forum that someone would take me literally.

Still, around here at least, a Prius is definitely a status-symbol purchase. As evidence I present the fact that the Honda Civic Hybrid, which is identical in appearance to a standard Civic, sold so few units that Honda discontinued it. People want to be seen being green.

Originally Posted by Finch

I should have known that there are enough INTPs on this forum that someone would take me literally.

Still, around here at least, a Prius is definitely a status-symbol purchase. As evidence I present the fact that the Honda Civic Hybrid, which is identical in appearance to a standard Civic, sold so few units that Honda discontinued it. People want to be seen being green.

According to Consumer Reports, the gas mileage of the Honda Civic was inferior to the Prius, even though it is a much smaller car than the Prius. In terms of size and comfort, the Prius is really on a par with the great family sedans -- Toyota Camry, Honda Civic, and Ford Taurus. Yet it is greener than the hybrid Honda Civic.

Speaking of global warming, I was wondering if anybody on thie form watched the CBS special Sunday evening which aired in lieu of 60 Minutes, about the global warming issue and how the government continuously downplays the issues presented by elite scientists. It seems as if the government is playing mind games on this issue and refuses to take it seriously, deleting much of the most damning evidence. Are they in denial as much as the alcoholic who doesn't think he/she needs help? Will breaking society's addiction to oil and the automobile be considerably more difficult than individuals breaking addictions to alcohol, tobacco or gambling? It seems so, because so far we have refused to reduce dependency despite so much damning evidence. How high will the price of gas have to get to before we start seeing a serious drop in consumption, and more interest in switching to public transit? Will the government mind games continue regardless of who sits in the White House a year from now?

Not that I suppose it's any news, but gas at my local station hit $3.499/3.599/$3.699 a week ago... which if memory serves me correctly beats it's previous record high by about $0.200. The real shocker is the price of diesel... at $4.099!

In my neck of the woods -- South Arlington and West Alexandria, Virginia, gas is running around $3.299 per gallon, slightly less than Vancouver Washington and less than the peak we reached in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, when for some reason DC had the highest gas prices in the nation.

But spring is yet young; I anticipate gas reaching further heights this driving season.

$3.399 on I-25 north between Albuquerque and Denver. $3.099 in Denver - lucked out big. Will refill in Albuquerque and tell you all later.

I paid $3.60 a gallon for the cheap gas last Sunday the 16th here in Santa Cruz, CA. The most I've EVER paid for gas! I've had a busy week so I havent really noticed whether they've gotten higher or lower since then. I'll find out soon enough, Im sure. I guess the only thing I have going for me in dealing with these increasing prices is that I drive a small car that gets 30mpg, plus Im centrally located with a short drive to work, so I don't really have to drive all that much. It just might suck when I do have to though...

Originally Posted by stab1969

I paid $3.60 a gallon for the cheap gas last Sunday the 16th here in Santa Cruz, CA. The most I've EVER paid for gas! I've had a busy week so I havent really noticed whether they've gotten higher or lower since then. I'll find out soon enough, Im sure. I guess the only thing I have going for me in dealing with these increasing prices is that I drive a small car that gets 30mpg, plus Im centrally located with a short drive to work, so I don't really have to drive all that much. It just might suck when I do have to though...

How short a drive? Less than a mile? It's been a long, long time since I've been up your way. The reason I asked is that even with a heavy Spanish textbook, I've taken to walking to school whenever possible.

I filled up in Albuquerque yesterday at 3.159 - at a place with a drive-through car wash. Near the airport.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

How short a drive? Less than a mile? It's been a long, long time since I've been up your way. The reason I asked is that even with a heavy Spanish textbook, I've taken to walking to school whenever possible.

Probably closer to two miles, but it's kinda hard to tell since the route I take requires several turns along a residential route. Basically about a 5 minute drive. My routine is that I pretty much fill up every Sunday and since I usually drive less than 70 miles a week, I rarely pay more than ten dollars at a time at the gas pump. For now that is... Oh yeah, an update! Yesterday I was driving my friend to her work so we can pick up some videos and the gas station I drove past, the cheap gas there was at $3.67

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

In my neck of the woods -- South Arlington and West Alexandria, Virginia, gas is running around $2.299 per gallon, slightly less than Vancouver Washington and less than the peak we reached in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, when for some reason DC had the highest gas prices in the nation.

But spring is yet young; I anticipate gas reaching further heights this driving season.

$2.29 per gallon??? That's pretty damn good! But I thought I remembered it over $3 when I was there last? Guess I'm having a Boomer moment :-/

But I understand gas in the Yellowstone area is still in the two-dollar-per-gallon range as well... probably because most of the oil used in Wyoming is both pumped and refined locally.

Originally Posted by stab1969

I paid $3.60 a gallon for the cheap gas last Sunday the 16th here in Santa Cruz, CA. The most I've EVER paid for gas! I've had a busy week so I havent really noticed whether they've gotten higher or lower since then. I'll find out soon enough, Im sure. I guess the only thing I have going for me in dealing with these increasing prices is that I drive a small car that gets 30mpg, plus Im centrally located with a short drive to work, so I don't really have to drive all that much. It just might suck when I do have to though...

I saw a news report last week that showed gas in San Francisco selling for well over $4 per gallon!

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

I saw a news report last week that showed gas in San Francisco selling for well over $4 per gallon!

Santa Cruz prices tend to run along with SF prices for the most part, and the highest I've seen here for cheap gas is $3.77. Prices are still pretty high, but I suspect you caught a glimpse of a little media sensationalism in a particular off gas station near I80 or hwy 101. Probably diesel or premium prices. However, that's not say that, that could be a possibly reality in the very near future. Also what I found kind of odd is that gas prices in Oakland, which is just right across the bay from SF, gas prices tend to be 5 to 10 cents cheaper!

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

$2.29 per gallon??? That's pretty damn good! But I thought I remembered it over $3 when I was there last? Guess I'm having a Boomer moment :-/

But I understand gas in the Yellowstone area is still in the two-dollar-per-gallon range as well... probably because most of the oil used in Wyoming is both pumped and refined locally.

Thanks for pointing out my typo.

BTW, gas in NJ is less -- at the NJ Turnpike on Friday, it was $3.07.

Originally Posted by stab1969

Santa Cruz prices tend to run along with SF prices for the most part, and the highest I've seen here for cheap gas is $3.77. Prices are still pretty high, but I suspect you caught a glimpse of a little media sensationalism in a particular off gas station near I80 or hwy 101. Probably diesel or premium prices. However, that's not say that, that could be a possibly reality in the very near future. Also what I found kind of odd is that gas prices in Oakland, which is just right across the bay from SF, gas prices tend to be 5 to 10 cents cheaper!

San Francisco has been a poor place in which to get gasoline as long as I have known (1972). I have lived in the area and have visited it frequently -- and I would be there again very fast if I had the chance. San Francisco has not been an auto-friendly place since at least the 1950s; it relies heavily on public transportation, and even the topography (effectively mountainous in the tourist areas if it isn't extremely congested) makes driving a car difficult. It is very rough on transmissions.

... This is off topic, but this is Easter, the second-holiest day in Christendom, the day on which Christians celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The resurrection of the American Dream arrives in 302 days with the retirement of George Worthless Bush!

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

The resurrection of the American Dream arrives in 302 days with the retirement of George Worthless Bush!

What is the holiest day for Christians? Christmas?

I'm not asking to be funny, I'm asking out of interest.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

What is the holiest day for Christians? Christmas?

I'm not asking to be funny, I'm asking out of interest.

I for one, have the same question and I think it a legitimate one to ask.

Ya know, the Separatists (Pilgrims) and the Puritans didn't celebrate Christmas. Some current day Christain cults don't celebrate many of the traditional holidays the way they used to either.....or at least not with the emphasis they used to. Take Ash Wednesday for instance. This one seems to be hit or miss with great varience between sects/cults/denominations.

Christmas is basically a construct of commercial enterprise and social control.

Easter seems to be the "holiest".

Again this is my perspective, having been raised a Presbyterian, worked with Penticostals and Catholics and all sorts of Christians.

If I ask myself "what would Jesus do?" I come to the conclusion that he'd likely pick Mundy Thrusday as the most holy day.

Then again, I think Jesus would barf if he were to come back and see what men did to his words and made of his walk on earth. I could see him saying, "JEEESUS!! You people missed the point altogether!!!!"

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

What is the holiest day for Christians? Christmas?

I'm not asking to be funny, I'm asking out of interest.

No, it's a serious and legitimate question. The answer is, in every branch of Christianity I've ever heard of, Easter.

Happy Easter Season.