But, Jeremiah, didn't you know that "free will" is predetermined for you by God? It's the biggest predestination there is, lad. How can you call yourself a Christian when you take free will out of God's plan? Oh, I'm afraid He might be very dissappointed in you. And He's been kinda grouchy lately.
"Free will", at least as we define it, I suspect to be a vital illusion. Any "free will" on our part would be trumped by God's first choice. Each of us believe (or not) according to the measure of faith we are given, and in any event I have it on good authority that God and I are on fine terms, so I'll leave myself to his good judgement.Originally Posted by Croakmore
Born 8.22.78
I would like to meet this God with Whom you are on fine terms. If I ever did I would ask Him: 'Lord, why didn't You give Jeremiah any free will?' And He would say: "I tried to, but he didn't want any, so I left him to fend for himself.'
Makes perfect sense to me.
Croaker,
If I understand Mr. Meece correctly, we're talking more about cycles here than mass. Though Nemesis, being a brown dwarf or what-have-you, probably has the mass of many Jupiters, it's (very eliptical) orbit takes 26 million years to complete. That's not long enough to have an effect astrologically, does it??
Oh and BTW, I think astrology is mostly bunk, but I am asking anyway.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
***
what happens when an a_steroid flies into Ur---
no, i won't go there. sorry. can't say that.
Random factoid of possible astrological interest of the day:
Both Ernest Hemingway and Hart Crane were born 106 years ago yesterday. Both are among our greatest writers on national themes. Both offed themselves.
"Hell is other people." Jean Paul Sartre
"I called on hate to give me my life / and he came on his black horse, obsidian knife" Kristin Hersh
Mr. Meece, guess what? It looks like there is another KBO that has a moon.We'll have to disagree on that. I'm sure I heard other opinion. It doesn't much matter what current opinion is then; knowledge about Pluto has not changed since the contrary opinion was heard by me. Clearly Pluto is much larger than those other objects, which also don't have Moons.Nope. Among astronomers there is agreement that if Pluto/Charon were discovered today it/they would not rate planet status. It would be labeled a wayward Kuiper Belt Object (KBO), exactly like Sedna, Quaoar, and Varuna.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...ge_object.html
And your "opinion" about Pluto being a considered a planet other than in name only is still wrong. The scientific consensus these days is that it's a Kuiper Belt Object. The term "planet" is a misnomer in this case and an accident of history.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
You could well be right, but here's an astrological tale of Pluto for ya. It's thought among astrologers that the "pluto square venus" aspect (that's pluto at "90 degrees" of venus) is a signpost for romantic obsession (Mr. Meece will I think concur).Mr. Meece, guess what? It looks like there is another KBO that has a moon.We'll have to disagree on that. I'm sure I heard other opinion. It doesn't much matter what current opinion is then; knowledge about Pluto has not changed since the contrary opinion was heard by me. Clearly Pluto is much larger than those other objects, which also don't have Moons.Nope. Among astronomers there is agreement that if Pluto/Charon were discovered today it/they would not rate planet status. It would be labeled a wayward Kuiper Belt Object (KBO), exactly like Sedna, Quaoar, and Varuna.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...ge_object.html
And your "opinion" about Pluto being a considered a planet other than in name only is still wrong. The scientific consensus these days is that it's a Kuiper Belt Object. The term "planet" is a misnomer in this case and an accident of history.
Rather than embarassing myself with my own particular related tale (which would almost certainly lead you to the conclusion that I am as demented as I seem, and to be sure probably am), I'll tell someone else's.
When I had just finished school in New York, I had to drive back to the Bay Area (where my parents lived at the time). This girl who I didn't know all that well insisted she come with me, which was cool.
In a McDonalds parking lot outside of Memphis, she discovered among my books and assorted crap an ephemeris, and implored me to "do a reading" for her. About the only "aspect" worth mentioning at that particular moment was pluto square her natal venus (which happens maybe once or twice if at all in a person's life). I told her what it meant and she looked like she was about to throw up. For the sake of modesty, I'll refrain from relaying the rest of this story, except to say that it was for her apparently not an untruth.
Does this mean I put much stock in this stuff? Not particularly. I'm an interested skeptic.
"Hell is other people." Jean Paul Sartre
"I called on hate to give me my life / and he came on his black horse, obsidian knife" Kristin Hersh
Put me down as semi-interested.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
I have Pluto square Venus in my horoscope. I've been known to have an obsession or two.
The new object according to the linked article is about 1/3 the mass of Pluto, and its satellite is only 1% of the object's mass (compared to 10% for Pluto's Moon).
Without Pluto, my entire astrological theory of historical cycles would collapse in ruins. It seems to be very significant according to my study of history and cycles. However, some astrologers see some of the Kuiper Belt objects as significant too. One link to the article says the number of planets should be increased, not decreased. On the other hand, not all astrologers give Pluto the same level of importance as the other planets, especially in personal readings.
Since Pluto travels inside Neptune's orbit, can it really be said to inhabit the Kuiper Belt? Maybe it just goes on long vacation there. It's been on it's way back there on its 248-year orbit since it reached its closest point to the Sun in 1989.
Star Gate
After reading this whole string I am even more convinced that you guys are going to love reading my book "Generation X: A Hidden Treasure on a Lost Planet" http://www.treasurex.net/ebook.htm (download ebook for free) http://www.treasurex.net (main website)
At the end of the book I wrote a chapter called "Sleeping Wizards and good news for those who feel left out of our plan" - after reading this string I feel as I have walked into a den of Wizards who have been decoding the universe and waiting for someone to read the star maps according to the new languages....
Have any of you heard of "Pluto - The Evolutionary Journey of the Soul" by Jeff Green? A MUST read -
I mention in the book how cool it would be for someone to write a more detailed book about Pluto and the generations and reading this string got me so excited - what I present in my book is like a large holistic overview and I hope that many of the the concepts can be further expanded upon and the Pluto/astrology subject was one that I was anxious to see someone pick up. I am going to order a copy right now of your book Eric and I would love to link it to my books website with your permission......
I don't know if you are familiar with Alice Bailey's "Esoteric Astrology" or not but the ex-wife of the above mentioned astrologer Jeff Green is a very good friend of mine and she told me that "in the future astrology will be completely 're-written' by the incoming generations who will understand the deeper layers of the star maps in ways never before understood. They will take astrology out of the 'dogma' and 'predictive' stages it has been locked into for centuries and lift it to the next level of understanding so that everyone will finally understand the role of the stars in relationship to our free will"
I am so stoked to be able to meet all of you and I look forward to connecting more....
In Lake'ch
Lady X
:shock:
Too Much
Too Soon
Too Little
Too Late
Re: Star Gate
Ditto, Ms. L.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
Pluto is cleary a KBO dragged closer into the solar system by Neptune's gravity. The only reason it's been allowed to retain official planet status is due to convention: It was deemed too disrupting to downgrade it.
Why is it clearly a KBO? Because there are known to be three distinct extrasolar body types/zones in the solar system (terrestial, jovian, and KBO) and a hypothesized fourth (OCO, Oort Cloud Objects). The asteroid belt is believed to be a fifth terrestial planet that was either not allowed to develop due to Jupiter's gravity or was torn apart by the same. Therefore it is in the terrestrial zone.
Pluto may be larger than other known KBO's but that's about the only difference. It's on the edge of their known zone, it's small like them, it's presumably made out of similar material, and it's orbit is completely out of whack with the eight other planets (it's far, far more elliptical and even off the solar plane!).
If Pluto is a "planet" then so are Sedna, Quaoar, and Varuna, the other known KBO's. Where are those three in the great astrological tradition? Were they predicted? How can we have astrologized (or whatever) without them all of these years? How many more are there? Does astrology have any predictions?
While we're at it, does astrology have anything to say about the hypothesized Nemesis star/planet? I would imagine that enters a new "house" every 2.2 million years or so, if it exists. Just curious.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
Ha! Cohorts in my vicinity have pluto square saturn, which is alleged to be one of the worst. It's weak in my chart but plenty of people I grew up with who were born my year just had terrible misfortune. A friend of mine in high school (whose pluto/saturn square is much stronger) had classic pluto square saturn scandalously bad luck. A few weeks before we graduated the uber conservative father of his fourteen or fifteen year old girlfriend came home early from a business trip or something and he jumped out the second story window of her bedroom (where they'd been..umm..."busy"), breaking both of his ankles. He did graduation in a wheelchair or crutches (I don't remember which), and of course *everyone* knew what happened.
"Hell is other people." Jean Paul Sartre
"I called on hate to give me my life / and he came on his black horse, obsidian knife" Kristin Hersh
Good to hear from you Lady. Just in case you can't find my book, you can email me about where to send for my book. The address and the web site are in my profile, I believe.
Peter G: how could we have astrologized all these years without Sedna and company? The same way we did without Pluto and Co.
We have another argument that can't be resolved. You make good points, but mine are good too. Astrologers differ, as I have said, and I'm sure some give all the KBO objects significance. Zane Grey is one I know who does. Pluto may just be the most significant KBO. As the symbol of the soul, as Jeff Green writes about it, Pluto is indeed a symbol of being sort-of in-between living and dying. It is a kind of ghostly presence. That is its astrological significance anyway, and that dovetails with its status as an in-between planet and non-planet. Except-- for some reason it seems to have a powerful cyclic significance out of all proportion to its size and type. That may seem illogical to an outside critic like you, Sean, but as far as I'm concerned the empirical evidence (and certain psychic confirmations) leaves no doubt of Pluto's significance, regardless of how it may have been mis-defined.
Remember, its in-between status also corresponds nicely with the "holistic" spiral dynamics history meme, which some say is a meme, and some say just a relationship to the earlier memes. It is interesting that just as we have found out more about Pluto and its Moon Charon, so we have found out more and more about life after death and life after life. Pluto represents a bridge between life and the other side, both for souls and civilizations. And there is a special power in that.
If we had discovered a different KBO first, could we have latched on to it instead? But we didn't, and Pluto is much larger and closer than the others, and has a much larger Moon. So at the least, it has a special significance among Kuiper Belt objects.
As I already mentioned, and you didn't read Sean, Sedna's orbit appears to be as long as 500 years, which would mean it adds no significance whatever to the cycles I have already elucidated, except to confirm them. Pluto, on the contrary, bears a tight one-two-three orbital-length relationship with Uranus and Neptune, in years closely related to the modern saeculum. Not to the ancient 100-plus year one, but then, that saeculum never applied to most people in the old days.
Only in modern times, when the outer planets have been known, have most people participated in the cycle. In pre-modern times, lives did not change generation to generation, except among the elite. And this is also the reason for the "anomaly." In the first cycle since Uranus' discovery, the American South kept America in the ancient cycle. I believe Dixie's presence, and its powerful cotton-based slave economy, kept the whole nation on a slower pace. The Civil War had to forcefully break through the old aristocracy, and keep the USA up to speed on the new saeculum cycle that involves everybody.
But as I mentioned, it came right on schedule. The Declaration of Independence, Fort Sumpter, and D-Day all occured with Uranus in the same degree of the zodiac, and I believe the same minute too. What are the odds of that? Astronomical, or should I say, astrological. The last pre-modern cycle, whose 4th turning featured the Declaration and the Revolution, also followed a fourth turning climax with Uranus in virtually the same degree; and the founding of Jamestown also corresponded to Uranus in that degree (that's 9 Gemini BTW).
So some predictions can be made, though nothing is certain. If the cycle holds, and there is no guarantee it will, Uranus will circle around to that degree again in the year 2027. We can expect the crisis climax at that time, and probably its end will follow shortly thereafter, since the 4T Crisis will have been about 20 years duration by then.
This emerging new 4T Crisis will correspond to Pluto's first return to its zodiac position during the Revolution, as well as to Uranus' third such return, and also to Neptune's return to its position when the Civil War began. Pearl Harbor followed closely Neptune's first return to its Revolution position, and exactly corresponded to its position when France entered the Revolutionary War on the American side. At Neptune's return, America returned the favor.
But you said that, for example, your system wouldn't work without Pluto. How could something that significant have not had a HUGE impact by the void it left in the past??
"Empirical evidence"? Can I read some studies?
Huh?
Interesting that an object named "Pluto" with it's friend "Charon" seems to have life/death implications. Did you know that other contenders for it's name in 1930 (according to the Wikipedia article) were: Cronus, Minerva (proposed by the New York Times, unaware that it had been proposed for Uranus some 150 years earlier) Artemis, Athene, Atlas, Cosmos, Hera, Hercules, Icarus, Idana, Odin, Pax, Persephone, Perseus, Prometheus, Tantalus, Vulcan, Zymal, and many more. "One complication was that many of the mythological names had already been allotted to the numerous asteroids".
I wonder if it had been named "Cosmos" whether Pluto's cycle would have taken on some other "significance".
If you wrote that, my apologies for missing it.
Jamestown was in the middle of a First Turning. The Declaration of Independence was a Fourth Turning regeneracy trigger, Fort Sumter was in a Fourth Turning cascade (post-catalyst, pre-regeneracy), and D-Day was at the latter portion of a Fourth Turning). Heck, when I subtract 84 from 1607 I get 1523. That was an early Second Turning.
There is nothing "astronomical" about your alleged connection, because it doesn't exist. It's bouncing around the saeculum. You conveniently insist (I think) that it only matters now, since the outer planets were discovered. Why? If I see any overall trend it's that this Uranus thing is coming later in the saeculum. 2027 is on track to being saecularly later than Pearl Harbor, probably a 4T/1T cusp.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
Hey Eric Meece,
Do you know of any sites you can go and commune with people who share your birthday (and even better people who share your birthday and place of birth)?
If this hasn't been done it should. It would be an interesting experiment.
I'll take my answer off the air.
"Hell is other people." Jean Paul Sartre
"I called on hate to give me my life / and he came on his black horse, obsidian knife" Kristin Hersh
It did have an impact; people were just not aware of the cycles I have described in my book. They are long-term cycles of civilization. But they still did astrology charts using what they knew.But you said that, for example, your system wouldn't work without Pluto. How could something that significant have not had a HUGE impact by the void it left in the past??
To some extent, Pluto's significance has increased since it has been known, and in the years Uranus and Neptune have been known (modern times). Milo mentioned Saturn-square-Pluto. That is indeed a difficult aspect to work with in a personal horoscope; perhaps indicating power struggles of some kind. I have described its significance for major wars, and Saturn opposite Pluto was the major significator of 9-11, and as you know I predicted something like what happened. But Saturn-Pluto has had this significance, according to my research, only since about 1851.
You bought my book didn't you?"Empirical evidence"? Can I read some studies?
You didn't follow that either? I made long posts about that topic.Huh?
Astrologers tend to believe that the planet's chosen name is no coincidence; those naming it are led to choose the right name. On the other hand, Pluto's apparent significance goes far beyond the mythical god of the underworld. It's astrological significance is based on a lot more than the name. It has a lot to do with life-transforming experiences, which come when we deal with life and death issues and see a higher "soul" purpose to life. Existential and depth psychology are "Plutonian." The ancient god Pluto was not too well up on those matters.Interesting that an object named "Pluto" with it's friend "Charon" seems to have life/death implications. Did you know that other contenders for it's name in 1930 (according to the Wikipedia article) were: Cronus, Minerva (proposed by the New York Times, unaware that it had been proposed for Uranus some 150 years earlier) Artemis, Athene, Atlas, Cosmos, Hera, Hercules, Icarus, Idana, Odin, Pax, Persephone, Perseus, Prometheus, Tantalus, Vulcan, Zymal, and many more. "One complication was that many of the mythological names had already been allotted to the numerous asteroids".
I wonder if it had been named "Cosmos" whether Pluto's cycle would have taken on some other "significance".
I know that, silly. The point is, the cycle lines up neatly with the founding dates of American history, as well as the saeculum based around them. As I said, the Uranus-Neptune-Pluto correlation does not extend to the aristocratic saeculum of Europe.
Jamestown was in the middle of a First Turning.
Although the Wars of the Roses Crisis was so long that Neptune's position in the 1450s/60s matches that of the 1940s, and Uranus and Pluto weren't far off. WWII was the virtual triple return of all three planets to their places during the Wars of the Roses, which corresponded to the 500-year overall cycle.
I think all these dates have been described as crisis climaxes. Everyone knows Fort Sumter and the Declaration are the key dates. But yes, the correlation has moved toward the end of the 4T from the beginning, as the saeculum has speeded up. If Mike A is right, it will speed up more and the climax will come before 2027. If the Uranus correlation holds, it won't. We'll see.The Declaration of Independence was a Fourth Turning regeneracy trigger,
Fort Sumter was in a Fourth Turning cascade (post-catalyst, pre-regeneracy), and D-Day was at the latter portion of a Fourth Turning).
I suspect the saeculum is going to slow down, because the pace of change is slowing down as we move further away from the times of transition centering on and emanating from the Neptune-Pluto conjunction of the 1880s and 1890s. Of course, we have already seen the pace of social change not only slow down in America, but reverse course and go backwards.
Boy, you are nit-picking! You are a Virgo who can't see the big picture of things, I suspect. In your precision-based arguing, you miss important points. And yet in some arguments, like your support for developmental psychology, you change and then say I can pick any version I choose.There is nothing "astronomical" about your alleged connection, because it doesn't exist. It's bouncing around the saeculum.
I doubt that Crises follow so neatly the exact T4T framework you cite; history is much more disorderly than that. Just what event is called what, is kind of arbitrary and open to question. Especially since one of the 4Ts is alleged to have only lasted 5 years, while the previous one lasted 22 years. The three events I mentioned are (I think; I don't have the T4T book handy) cited as the critical moments of each 4T. In any case noone disputes they are key dates indeed! You can't find hardly any other dates during each crisis that are more significant; maybe one or two. And Uranus was in the same degree at each one of those three. That's one degree out of a possible 360. In the case of Ft. Sumter, it returned to the same minute of arc as during the Declaration. Multiply 360 by 60, then.
I explained that. The saeculum only applies to most people during modern times, which began with the discovery of the modern revolutionary planet Uranus.You conveniently insist (I think) that it only matters now, since the outer planets were discovered. Why?
The correlation already ran later than Pearl Harbor; it matched D- Day. It won't come much later in the 4T than before, if the correlation holds this time.If I see any overall trend it's that this Uranus thing is coming later in the saeculum. 2027 is on track to being saecularly later than Pearl Harbor, probably a 4T/1T cusp.
Mr. Meece,
I think you'll find what you want to find. Reminds me of some biblical enthusiasts I know.
I'll take another look at your book.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
One good thing came of astrology: the names of the member planets for the Twelve Colonies. :wink:
(BTW, my wife is Sagitaran, but has said that she'd never vote for Tom Zarek! :lol: )
I guess we on Virgon think the scriptures are a load of bunk. Arrow of Apollo my @ss. 8)One good thing came of astrology: the names of the member planets for the Twelve Colonies. :wink:
(BTW, my wife is Sagitaran, but has said that she'd never vote for Tom Zarek! :lol: )
BTW, what motto do you think they put on Colonial money? "In Gods We Trust"? :wink:
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
No. More like "In The Gods We Trust." :wink:I guess we on Virgon think the scriptures are a load of bunk. Arrow of Apollo my @ss. 8)One good thing came of astrology: the names of the member planets for the Twelve Colonies. :wink:
(BTW, my wife is Sagitaran, but has said that she'd never vote for Tom Zarek! :lol: )
BTW, what motto do you think they put on Colonial money? "In Gods We Trust"? :wink:
BTW, I assume that means there's no such place as Earth, outside of myth and legend? :wink:
Earth SchmearthNo. More like "In The Gods We Trust." :wink:I guess we on Virgon think the scriptures are a load of bunk. Arrow of Apollo my @ss. 8)One good thing came of astrology: the names of the member planets for the Twelve Colonies. :wink:
(BTW, my wife is Sagitaran, but has said that she'd never vote for Tom Zarek! :lol: )
BTW, what motto do you think they put on Colonial money? "In Gods We Trust"? :wink:
BTW, I assume that means there's no such place as Earth, outside of myth and legend? :wink:
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
It's a pretty good read, though full of details. I wanted the section on the Modern Spirit's Journey to be a compelling drama.
You can think what you want about me. I don't have to prove astrology to you; you can study it if you find it interesting, or not. A few arguments from someone will not reverse a lifetime of research and study so easily, no matter who is arguing with whom. There's often a lot more to the subject than the skeptic may realize. So arguments seem to be of limited value.
Although I have to say that you dismiss what evidence I present as if your mind is made up.
But I find Pluto a fascinating archetype. And the Hermetic principle is, that such archetypes exist on many levels, and there are correspondences.
I don't know if I can "prove" the hermetic principle. My philosophy teacher wanted me to do something like that recently. Worth thinking about some. The closest thing to it in philosophy is the Platonic theory of forms, which can be demonstrated to some extent; but even hermeticism doesn't buy it without blending eternal archetypes with the world of change and becoming, while Plato put these in opposition. For hermeticism (alchemy, astrology, etc.), the two are basic aspects of life that are brought together in the "divine marriage" at the crown chakra.
