I did a little digging on Pluto in Capricorn and found the following geopolitical astrology blog. I know Eric Meece and Teresa 13er have been saying this for years, but there is an uncanny resemblance between S&H's time frames for turnings and generations and those of astrologers who follow the outer planets. It's a bit freaky, actually. I even posted a comment on this blog telling them about S&H:

http://astrotabletalk.blogspot.com/

Originally Posted by Neisha '67

I did a little digging on Pluto in Capricorn and found the following geopolitical astrology blog. I know Eric Meece and Teresa 13er have been saying this for years, but there is an uncanny resemblance between S&H's time frames for turnings and generations and those of astrologers who follow the outer planets. It's a bit freaky, actually. I even posted a comment on this blog telling them about S&H:

http://astrotabletalk.blogspot.com/

Coincidence? The orbit of Uranus is 84 years, pretty much one saeculum. Maybe that's all astrology is, a saecular time clock. That makes far more sense that the notion of planets and stars actually affecting what people do, individually or collectively.

Watching Nova and Secrets of the Dead yesterday on PBS, the thought occured to me that the 84 or so year length of the saeculum still holds for America, even if the cycle is extended back before King William's War. Maybe the first crisis was the first years of Jamestown. Out of 700 years in that area, the scientists showed from tree ring analysis, the worst drought occured from 1606 to 1612. Plus the the colonists were probably poisoned due to the Catholic-Protestant turmoil that was the hallmark of that saeculum in England, the program said. About 4 out of 5 colonists did not survive this crisis.

If you don't remember, there is an 84-year cycle that has held remarkably well, that coincides with the peak of the saeculum's Crisis, or at least the start of the peak (if you don't lengthen the time of the civil war crisis beyond 5 years). These peaks occured during King William's War, the Revolution, the Civil War, and World War II. This cycle is American; in Europe the cycle was longer before 1700. But the beginning of America was Jamestown, and like the Declaration of Independence, it was a birth moment (for which a nation's horoscope is cast). So even if England was in a "high" or 1T then, the new colony was in a Crisis, beginning an 84-year cycle of crisis returns.

The pattern involves the return of Uranus to where it was in 1607 and 1776. This happens every 83 to 84 years. As you may know, coincidentally Strauss and Howe defined the archetypal seaculum length as 84 years (in T4T), and this is exactly the same time as one orbit of Uranus. This cycle is also recognized by astrologer and philosopher Dane Rudhyar as the archetypal length of one human life; which as S&H have pointed out, is a main reason for the saeculum, since people tend to forget things beyond that length of time, and we repeat what we forget.

I'm not sure what pivotal event happened in 1691 or 92 during that great war, but 1776 was the Declaration, 1861 was the start of the civil war, and 1944 was D-Day. At these times, and on the exact relevant dates, Uranus was in the same degree and the same minute as it was the other times. That also means its degree (9 degrees Gemini) in the "US horoscope," usually cast for the date of the Declaration. our birth moment. But Jamestown was also a birth moment, and certainly a "crisis" although obviously "America" was very small-- only the colony itself.

The peak of this crisis we are entering will be in the mid 2020s, probably 2026 or 2027. Meanwhile, it is sure clear that I called it right-- I have said here for 11 years that the crisis will not start in 2001 (despite a war that I predicted would involve the US, starting then), or 2005; but in the 2008-2010 period, and we sure seem to be getting there. And I said it would be primarily economic and ecological; not yet military. And so it is. In the cycles of the planets, (especially the mutual square-offs of Uranus, Saturn and Pluto in cardinal signs), 1931 equals 2010, and that means 1929 equals 2008.

Also, of course, one Uranus cycle of 84 years is half of one Neptune cycle of 165 years (hence the alternating patterns seen in the crises). Pluto's orbit in turn is almost 3 times that of Uranus, 248 years.

If you are scared of the "influence" of the stars, the sun, the moon, and the planet, then here are the relevant ones:

1. The Sun. When it is above the horizon, conditions are usually warmer than when the sun is below at least on the same day. In a Dfa climate (moist climates with hot summers and real winters as in Chicago, Boston, Detroit, Cleveland, Omaha, and Kansas City), when the sun is against Scorpius, Ophiuchus (not generally recognized as an astrological sign), Sagittarius, Capricornus, or Aquarius -- weather is generally cold or about to get cold. When the sun is in front of Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, or Leo, then the weather is typically warm to hot. When the sun is against Pisces or Aries, then the weather is generally getting warmer from week to week. When the sun is against Virgo or Libra, the transition to cold weather from warmth is going on.

2. The Moon. PMS is relevant to a significant part of humanity, and fairly complex in its connection. During a full moon, crazy things seem to happen because people are more likely to stir.

Whenever someone asks me what sign I was born under, I respond "NO SMOKING BY ORDER OF THE CITY FIRE MARSHAL", which was literally true in what was the maternity ward that has been put to other uses. The sign is older than I am, as I can tell from the style of lettering.

The sun was in front of Ophiuchus when I was born.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I'm not sure what pivotal event happened in 1691 or 92 during that great war

It was a time of bloodless revolution in England and witch trials in New England.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

At these times, and on the exact relevant dates, Uranus was in the same degree and the same minute as it was the other times.

Mine moves around actually.

(Sorry, Eric. I couldn't help myself!)

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

The peak of this crisis we are entering will be in the mid 2020s, probably 2026 or 2027. Meanwhile, it is sure clear that I called it right-- I have said here for 11 years that the crisis will not start in 2001 (despite a war that I predicted would involve the US, starting then), or 2005; but in the 2008-2010 period, and we sure seem to be getting there. And I said it would be primarily economic and ecological; not yet military.

Yes you did. But to be specific, you said 2008, you said nothing of "2008-2010" to my recollection.

BTW, nice to have you back, sir.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

If you are scared of the "influence" of the stars, the sun, the moon, and the planet, then here are the relevant ones:

1. The Sun. When it is above the horizon, conditions are usually warmer than when the sun is below at least on the same day. In a Dfa climate (moist climates with hot summers and real winters as in Chicago, Boston, Detroit, Cleveland, Omaha, and Kansas City), when the sun is against Scorpius, Ophiuchus (not generally recognized as an astrological sign), Sagittarius, Capricornus, or Aquarius -- weather is generally cold or about to get cold. When the sun is in front of Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, or Leo, then the weather is typically warm to hot. When the sun is against Pisces or Aries, then the weather is generally getting warmer from week to week. When the sun is against Virgo or Libra, the transition to cold weather from warmth is going on.

2. The Moon. PMS is relevant to a significant part of humanity, and fairly complex in its connection. During a full moon, crazy things seem to happen because people are more likely to stir.

Whenever someone asks me what sign I was born under, I respond "NO SMOKING BY ORDER OF THE CITY FIRE MARSHAL", which was literally true in what was the maternity ward that has been put to other uses. The sign is older than I am, as I can tell from the style of lettering.

The sun was in front of Ophiuchus when I was born.

I am partially convinced that there is some sort of multiple year cycle that many people experience that runs about 7-7.5 years in most, but anywhere from 6-10 years, consistently, in some. This comes from reading about the circaseptennial cycle of growth, personal experience, and a lot of anecdotal information on other people.

When asked, astrologically-minded people like Eric would attribute it, if it exists, to Saturn. I can't buy that, but wonder if it could be related to longer patterns of the sun or moon.

I looked up that astrolabe link and here is my own chart:

Rising Sign is in 06 Degrees Taurus
Calm and deliberate, you hate to move quickly or act hastily. Very practical, every effort must count or you can't be bothered. Patient, persistent and steady, but very stubborn -- you can't be pushed or pressured into anything. You seem outwardly self-assured because you tend to repress your inner tension and turmoil. You exude an earthy warmth, friendliness and charm. You demand comfortable surroundings and appreciate the good life. Be careful of a tendency to be overly self-indulgent. At times, you are lazy and difficult to motivate. Overcoming inertia is a problem for you and, because you are not by nature a self-starter, it is often necessary for you to receive stimuli from others in order to get moving.

Sun is in 24 Degrees Aries.
By nature, you are very energetic and high-spirited. You are fiercely independent -- you must be first in everything you do, and you enjoy taking risks. You are the one who will rush in where angels fear to tread. Quite brilliant at initiating new projects, you are terrible at following them through to completion. You are an enthusiastic leader but you tend to be a reluctant follower. Often you are quick to anger, but you usually recover just as fast, regretting later things you said when you were upset. One of your best traits is that you are simple and direct, blunt and honest -- just be careful you do not hurt others' feelings. Your need to be competitive at all costs may provoke resistance from others, but, as long as you maintain your usual Sunny good humor, this should not prove to be a major problem for you.

Moon is in 21 Degrees Gemini.
Restless in the extreme, you are easily bored because of your short attention span. Your emotions change rapidly and you love to talk about your feelings. Generally, you have good judgment -- your intellect controls your emotions and you do not overreact emotionally to things. A good jack-of-all-trades, you have many- sided interests and enjoy reasoning things through. With your mental agility and need for physical mobility, you are attracted to traveling and learning about other peoples and cultures. You have vivid powers of emotional self-expression - - you can be a nonstop talker. You love to share your ideas with anyone who will listen.

Mercury is in 26 Degrees Pisces.
Your ideas and thought processes do not come to you in an orderly, logical fashion. Instead, you think with your feelings or with images produced by your rich and fertile imagination. A very subjective person, your dreams and fantasies are very important to you. You trust your intuitions and tend to reject ideas that are based solely on logic. Very impressionable, you are sensitive to the moods and emotional states of those with whom you come into contact.

Venus is in 14 Degrees Taurus.
You are known to be a warm and affectionate person, and you tend to form long- lasting attachments. The reverse of this is that you can also be quite possessive once you have made a commitment. The beauty, luxury and comfort of your surroundings are important to you and you will devote much time and energy to making your home just right. Beware of your tendency toward self-indulgence, especially with respect to eating incorrectly. You also need outside stimuli to get you in gear When things come too easily for you, you can be lazy and indolent.

Mars is in 08 Degrees Capricorn.
Extremely ambitious, you are willing to work very hard to reach the goals you have set for yourself. Very practical, cautious and conservative, you demand tangible results for your efforts. You need to excel in whatever you do, and you have the required sense of responsibility, dedication and self-discipline to bring it about. Beware of your tendency to judge others only by their degree of status and prestige, or by how well they will be able to advance you in your climb to the top.

Jupiter is in 12 Degrees Pisces.
You are at your best when you give of yourself and what you have -- try to avoid being a martyr about it, though. You're a true idealist, but you must learn not to be upset when life does not cooperate with the way you think things should be. Very concerned with spiritual truth and growth, when you practice what you preach, you make an excellent role model for others. You are so devoted to altruistic ventures and concerns that you tire easily at times. It then becomes necessary for you to go off by yourself to recharge your batteries.

Saturn is in 09 Degrees Sagittarius.
Basically quite conservative, you respect traditional authority figures and are very thankful and supportive of the laws and institutions which govern your life. You learn and accept new ideas only after having very thoroughly examined them. Ideals and abstract concepts are important to you only if they can be used in some practical fashion. You are so practical and so orderly that you have natural skills in planning, administrating and organizing.

Uranus is in 22 Degrees Sagittarius.
You, and most of your peers, have the tendency to think that all ideas, customs and traditions from the past are outmoded and irrelevant. You are attracted to radically new ideas, philosophies and religions that will, hopefully, cause sweeping changes throughout the world.

Neptune is in 05 Degrees Capricorn.
You, and your entire generation, will idealize work, practicality and the ability to attain reasonable goals. But, because you will also stress the need to be selfless and giving, you may find it difficult to attain your goals unless you have lowered your expectations on all fronts.

Pluto is in 06 Degrees Scorpio.
For your entire generation, this is a period of intense research and discovery in areas that were heretofore considered mysterious, remote or taboo. The root causes for many complex occurrences will be unearthed due to the intensity and thoroughness of the search.

N. Node is in 29 Degrees Aries.
You're at your most comfortable when involved in group activities outside of your immediate family circle. You delight in getting involved with others in neighborhood civic or political activities, especially if you can be a part of the leadership of the group. Your zeal and overabundant energy bring out your real creativity when you can work toward tangible results -- things that will immediately benefit those around you. You have a real gift for getting the most out of charity drives and community benefits. Take time out between projects though, because you tire out easily and your effectiveness becomes greatly diminished when your energy is depleted. Also, don't even think of trying to get involved at a peripheral level -- you need a total commitment to feel personally fulfilled. Let others bake the cookies and set up the chairs -- you should be the one to tell everyone what to do and when to do it!

I thought this was neat, but wasn't sure of where to post this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081113/...ci_new_planets

...does this mean all those astrological charts have to be re-done to account for the new planets?

Anyawy, there'll be a generation that's used to the idea of looking at planets outside our system.

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

I thought this was neat, but wasn't sure of where to post this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081113/...ci_new_planets

...does this mean all those astrological charts have to be re-done to account for the new planets?

Anyawy, there'll be a generation that's used to the idea of looking at planets outside our system.

Yeah, it is cool, isn't it?

Funny, when I was a little kid I expected/hoped us to be sending robot ships to other stars by now. Never in my wildest dreams did I figure we could discover extrasolar planets without even leaving Earth.

Wait til the Kepler mission next year. It wouldn't surprise me if we picked up a handful of pale blue dots like ours. And once we know for sure that there's someplace out there to go, you can bet we'll find a way to get there. I figure it'll take only a couple of saeculi.

Some time ago, Mr. Saari requested that I explain the chart of our president-elect; now president Obama. So here are some tidbits.

We have had very few presidents with Neptune rising, square the Sun. This shows a genuine idealism (something Saari doesn't like; oh well!). Clinton has Neptune rising too, but aligned right with Mars and other planets. Obama has Neptune alone, in Scorpio. This also shows a connection to "generations" (Neptune being a generational planet: two orbits = 2 saecula). But the good thing, I think, is that it shows the deep and genuine humanitarian awareness of the man. This could be a great boon and example of new leadership. He has said that his pet peeve is cruelty; kindness for him is a virtue, and that is the signature of Neptune. This planet can also signify scandal or deceit. He has faced some of this already, so it will be interesting to see if this is a problem. But sometimes people with idealistic Neptune aspects reach too high without seeing the steps beneath them, and often try to cut corners. In any case, for better or worse, idealism is stamped right at the core of Obama's character. And this shows he doesn't want to aim small or moderate, as he said in his speech today; he knows, as the pundits do not, that if you aim high, you might at least rise above mediocrity; but to settle for moderate goals will only guarantee failure at best.

Uranus in the 10th house of power and government shows indeed that he will be a president of "change," and will actually bring about a revolution to some degree; that is also unusual among US presidents. These positions mark him as a man whose actions will be focused on bringing a brighter day, and that he will be an innovator on behalf of his humanitarian values. He is aware of many long-term trends, which gives him the perspective that most presidents lack (notably his predecessor).

In spite of the Neptune aspects, which might indicate some tendency to waver, there is the potential for real strength of character shown as well. An astrology chart only shows potentials and directions, and how a person realizes them depends on him/her, and on many other things. His chart and his life so far demonstrate lots of steady endurance, combined with vision. Astrologically this is shown by the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction, the one that marked JFK's new era in his birth year of 1961, and it forms powerful 120-degree trine aspects to both Mars and the Moon. This is the chart of someone who is destined, yet willing and able, to face tough challenges and see them through. Foresight, and the ability to apply lessons learned, are also shown in his horoscope by these positions.

At the same time, Mars' position in Virgo (exactly aligned with the USA Neptune) shows that he will not easily escape the foreign troubles and wars that Bush bequeathed to him, and that he will have to deal with further troubles that will call upon him to decide how to use the military. But Virgo also refers to the call to service and "responsibility" which he announced in his inauguration speech. Venus in his 9th house balances the Mars position with a desire to use peaceful methods of diplomacy, which he will have some success with. He is free of difficult mutual aspects from Venus to the Sun and Neptune, which historically show involvement in foreign wars, so that is a good sign. Overall, I would say that Obama's idealism is matched with common sense, good judgement, good timing and disciplined skill.

Mercury, being at the top of his chart, and closely tied to all these planets I have mentioned, shows his rhetorical ability, and the mental powers; and these skills are his main tools with which he will move our nation into the "new age" he spoke of. Being a Leo, he has a strong sense of himself and his dramatic powers, and loves sport and gaming; he is a confident Lion of a leader like his fellow Leo Bill Clinton, yet apparently more able than he and some other Leos to look beyond his own needs and glory. Being a triple fixed sign native, Obama will be noted for endurance and steadiness, as well as skill in managing the economy and generating wealth. The Moon's position right on the cusp of Taurus-Gemini shows the ability to communicate and be flexible too.

I think there's lots in his chart to augur a good, or even a great presidency; but whether it's enough remains to be seen.

As I predicted at this site 10 years ago, and in my book, the period of 2008-2009 has been the start of the 4T crisis, due to economic challenges and climate change. Things will get more difficult for Obama and the world before they get easier, especially in 2010. These current historic planetary alignments of crisis, closely comparable to those of the early 1930s, will reach their maturity in 2010; after which new revolutions will occur circa 2010 to 2014, as well as a green industry-powered recovery, which I also predicted long ago for the period after 2012. Note also, Zarathustra, that I could not have made these predictions without Pluto! Of course, further aspects of the crisis will come in the 2020s, as our new 4th Turning "winter" reaches its climax, and other "gray champions" will be needed.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Some time ago, Mr. Saari requested that I explain the chart of our president-elect; now president Obama. So here are some tidbits.

We have had very few presidents with Neptune rising, square the Sun. This shows a genuine idealism (something Saari doesn't like; oh well!). Clinton has Neptune rising too, but aligned right with Mars and other planets. Obama has Neptune alone, in Scorpio. This also shows a connection to "generations" (Neptune being a generational planet: two orbits = 2 saecula). But the good thing, I think, is that it shows the deep and genuine humanitarian awareness of the man. This could be a great boon and example of new leadership. He has said that his pet peeve is cruelty; kindness for him is a virtue, and that is the signature of Neptune. This planet can also signify scandal or deceit. He has faced some of this already, so it will be interesting to see if this is a problem. But sometimes people with idealistic Neptune aspects reach too high without seeing the steps beneath them, and often try to cut corners. In any case, for better or worse, idealism is stamped right at the core of Obama's character. And this shows he doesn't want to aim small or moderate, as he said in his speech today; he knows, as the pundits do not, that if you aim high, you might at least rise above mediocrity; but to settle for moderate goals will only guarantee failure at best.

Uranus in the 10th house of power and government shows indeed that he will be a president of "change," and will actually bring about a revolution to some degree; that is also unusual among US presidents. These positions mark him as a man whose actions will be focused on bringing a brighter day, and that he will be an innovator on behalf of his humanitarian values. He is aware of many long-term trends, which gives him the perspective that most presidents lack (notably his predecessor).

In spite of the Neptune aspects, which might indicate some tendency to waver, there is the potential for real strength of character shown as well. An astrology chart only shows potentials and directions, and how a person realizes them depends on him/her, and on many other things. His chart and his life so far demonstrate lots of steady endurance, combined with vision. Astrologically this is shown by the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction, the one that marked JFK's new era in his birth year of 1961, and it forms powerful 120-degree trine aspects to both Mars and the Moon. This is the chart of someone who is destined, yet willing and able, to face tough challenges and see them through. Foresight, and the ability to apply lessons learned, are also shown in his horoscope by these positions.

At the same time, Mars' position in Virgo (exactly aligned with the USA Neptune) shows that he will not easily escape the foreign troubles and wars that Bush bequeathed to him, and that he will have to deal with further troubles that will call upon him to decide how to use the military. But Virgo also refers to the call to service and "responsibility" which he announced in his inauguration speech. Venus in his 9th house balances the Mars position with a desire to use peaceful methods of diplomacy, which he will have some success with. He is free of difficult mutual aspects from Venus to the Sun and Neptune, which historically show involvement in foreign wars, so that is a good sign. Overall, I would say that Obama's idealism is matched with common sense, good judgement, good timing and disciplined skill.

Mercury, being at the top of his chart, and closely tied to all these planets I have mentioned, shows his rhetorical ability, and the mental powers; and these skills are his main tools with which he will move our nation into the "new age" he spoke of. Being a Leo, he has a strong sense of himself and his dramatic powers, and loves sport and gaming; he is a confident Lion of a leader like his fellow Leo Bill Clinton, yet apparently more able than he and some other Leos to look beyond his own needs and glory. Being a triple fixed sign native, Obama will be noted for endurance and steadiness, as well as skill in managing the economy and generating wealth. The Moon's position right on the cusp of Taurus-Gemini shows the ability to communicate and be flexible too.

I think there's lots in his chart to augur a good, or even a great presidency; but whether it's enough remains to be seen.

As I predicted at this site 10 years ago, and in my book, the period of 2008-2009 has been the start of the 4T crisis, due to economic challenges and climate change. Things will get more difficult for Obama and the world before they get easier, especially in 2010. These current historic planetary alignments of crisis, closely comparable to those of the early 1930s, will reach their maturity in 2010; after which new revolutions will occur circa 2010 to 2014, as well as a green industry-powered recovery, which I also predicted long ago for the period after 2012. Note also, Zarathustra, that I could not have made these predictions without Pluto! Of course, further aspects of the crisis will come in the 2020s, as our new 4th Turning "winter" reaches its climax, and other "gray champions" will be needed.

Thank you for the work. It is romantic idealism that sets my teeth on edge. I like idealism (of the Augustinian sort) and I like romanticism but they combined in the early years of the previous Century and in the early years of the present Century and gave Our Commercial Republic sad attempts to Reform Eurasia.

The President's very name signifies crooked or bent in its East African meaning. I think his appointment of the Treasury Secretary from the Leona Helmsley School of tax avoidance is an early warning of this portion of his Nature. As was his property dealings with the Illini influence higgler.

But after the inauspicious start of the Inaugural. you have given me some confidence that the 3T will end with a whimper rather than a bang.

Hmmm.... I stumbled on this obscure thread. I'll bump it for Eric.

Thanks Ragnarok. I don't want to "pollute" lots of threads with astrology discussion, any more than I want to do that regarding a certain current pop star. Even though I am accused of doing so. This time I replied to astrology comments posted on the cusp continuum thread in the Generations forum. Susan Brombacher and Ghost Echo commented back that astrology might apply on a secondary observation basis, if astrological cycles correspond to cycles that can be explained by other factors:

(Ghost Echo) I kinda see Astrology working on a secondary observation basis. For instance, a star or planet being in a certain place in the sky doesn't actually cause events, but correlates to a general cycles. IE the plant Jupiter won't actually freeze your crops. But if its in a certain place in the sky, it may mean its about that time of the year to harvest the crops. Astrology may also work if certain observed patterns correlate to social-generational cycles.

Susan replied:

Could be. I think astrology could be valid if it works in the way you described, which would make it more scientific.

The point of introducing astrology into this discussion, however, is to show there is more at work in the universe than what current conventional science recognizes.

I need to make several comments about this.

First, I agree that astrology or planets like Jupiter would not cause events in the way science usually describes cause and effect, sending down a ray or something like that which causes an event to happen.

Planetary cycles sometimes also correlate to agricultural cycles; that's probably how astrology originated, according to histories of astrology I have read.

They could also correlate to social and generational cycles, acting as a convenient index to such cycles.

It is quite clear that such correlation exists in many cases. The modern American saeculum (roughly the last 4 seacula since the founding of Jamestown) correlates to the orbital length of Uranus of 83-84 years. S&H specifically mentioned in T4T that 84 years is the archetypal length of a saeculum. It is defined as such because it is similar to the average length of life. That is also just how astrologer/philosopher Dane Rudhyar explains why Uranus carries the meanings in astrology that it has. Specifically, it correlates to the return of the great American crisis, which astrologers noted long before S&H's books. Uranus is directly connected to the USA and its history, because of its having been discovered in the same year in which it achieved independence.

The significance of astrology goes further than just such correlations. It is significant in itself, because of esoteric factors at work in the world. Astrology challenges the conventional materialist/mechanist worldview. It may correspond to quantum physics principles, which connect atoms through quantum entanglement. The point is that synchronicity exists, connecting all beings on Earth with the cosmos around them. It is an organic whole unit, so you can use planetary cycles and perhaps stars as an index of the state of being of the whole solar system and perhaps beyond. The hermetic principle on which astrology is based says "as above, so below." The most important cycles in astrology are those of the Earth itself, and its Moon, establishing the length of our day, month, year, and astrological "ages," but other planets are also important, especially regarding social/historical cycles.

The universe is intelligent, and suffused with the ocean of consciousness that exists within us and connects us directly to our environment. This conscious universe was not necessarily "designed" by an intelligent creator separate from "his" creation, but is the expression of a cosmic intelligence which also manifests as order. The amazing relationship of the Earth to Venus is an example of such order, as well as the mutual relationship of the Sun, Moon and Earth, and the resemblance of the two "lights" of Sun and Moon to the most precious metals, known since antiquity. There is Bode's Law regarding the proportion of planetary orbits, the 1-2-3 resonance of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto orbits, and the amazing nature of Pluto itself as a dual planet, proclaimed to be such by an astrologer writing in 1934 long before Charon was known. Such principles and orders as these, although often mathematical in nature, are beyond the scope of current science to verify as "proofs of astrology" with empirical methods. But unlike what the Vandal maintains, this does not mean these principles are meaningless.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Hmmm.... I stumbled on this obscure thread. I'll bump it for Eric.

I'm sure that would have made his day had he seen it when you bumped it! This thread has been sitting in the dust for quite a while. I had forgotten all about it.

I could buy that astrology originated from agricultural cycles in ancient times. It also does seem like an odd coincidence that Uranus' orbital cycle correlates with the 84 year saeculum. But it could just be coincidence; who really knows?

I have a question. What zodiac signs or planets would the 4 S&H archetypes correlate to?

Originally Posted by sbrombacher

I'm sure that would have made his day had he seen it when you bumped it! This thread has been sitting in the dust for quite a while. I had forgotten all about it.

I could buy that astrology originated from agricultural cycles in ancient times.

I have a question. What zodiac signs or planets would the 4 S&H archetypes correlate to?

I started this thread long ago, of course (who else)?

Any comments on my post above? You are someone open to realities beyond empirical science, and according to MBTI are an "oracle" or "prophet." I am just an architect of ideas (INTP).

That's an old discussion too here. It may exist back in this thread or others in this sub-forum like MTBI.

Since there are 4 elements from ancient Greek philosophy, used in astrology, that's usually the correlation that is used, including by the authors in T4T. I thought that this was the basic pattern:

prophet-fire
nomad-earth
civic-air (I agree with using civic instead of hero as the title)
artist-water

Brian Rush did not agree, however, switching earth and air. But this order is the astrologically-correct one, since signs proceed in that order. But there are 3 such sequences in the zodiac, so you could also assign three signs to each archetype. I decided that since each archetype carries with it the background of the previous one, I assigned signs to generation archetypes as follows:

prophet: Cancer, Leo, Sagittarius (water sign, and 2 fire signs)
nomad: Aries, Taurus, Virgo (fire, 2 earth signs)
civic: Capricorn, Aquarius, Gemini (earth and 2 air signs)
artist: Libra, Scorpio, Pisces (air and 2 water signs)

They rotate backwards through the archetype sequence, like the Sun and planets do through houses each day.

Generally, if the saeculum is regular, Uranus is in the first two of these signs when people belonging to each archetype are born, except that the position during nomad and artist births are in opposite signs; but begin with the 3rd sign mentioned.

I think I identify with my archetype more than most people (and am assigned such a status by you) because I have Uranus in Cancer rising in my horoscope.

I developed this theory a little further, conceiving that generations start out having the traits of the first two signs (which are cardinal and fixed signs) and mature in mid-life into the third, mutable sign.

So prophets start out as sensitive, emotional, expressive and arrogant (Cancer and Leo) and develop into far-seeing prophets and visionaries (Sagittarius)

Nomads start out as assertive, aggressive, pragmatic, self-reliant, money-oriented (Aries and Taurus) and develop into skilled apprentices, administrators and servants of community need (Virgo)

Civics start out as other-directed, science-oriented and institutional/colleagial (Capricorn and Aquarius) and develop toward building communications networks and social connections (Gemini)

Artists start out as relationship-oriented, opportunistic, artistic, people-oriented, and going through personal crisis (Libra, Scorpio) and mature as compassionate and spiritual (Pisces)

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I developed this theory a little further, conceiving that generations start out having the traits of the first two signs (which are cardinal and fixed signs) and mature in mid-life into the third, mutable sign.

So prophets start out as sensitive, emotional, expressive and arrogant (Cancer and Leo) and develop into far-seeing prophets and visionaries (Sagittarius)

Nomads start out as assertive, aggressive, pragmatic, self-reliant, money-oriented (Aries and Taurus) and develop into skilled apprentices, administrators and servants of community need (Virgo)

Civics start out as other-directed, science-oriented and institutional/colleagial (Capricorn and Aquarius) and develop toward building communications networks and social connections (Gemini)

Artists start out as relationship-oriented, opportunistic, artistic, people-oriented, and going through personal crisis (Libra, Scorpio) and mature as compassionate and spiritual (Pisces)

Thanks. Your second post clarifies the first one -- I wasn't understanding why an archetype would be one sign of one element, and two of another. This makes sense. I'm still skeptical, but who knows? It's interesting to speculate about.

From facebook: "Pretty accurate if you ask me....SHARE if you feel identified....Do you?"
(funny, anyway)

If you use the astrological indicators that are listed on this website (http://cura.free.fr/xx/20palden.html), the Civic cohorts don't truly begin until the mid-1990s when the Uranus-Neptune conjunction occurred. The previous such Uranus-Neptune aspects seem to correspond with early unraveling.

Considering this graphic, can there be any question which generation archetype fits which element?

The grand trine in June-July 2013 has proven itself. Negotiations to open diplomatic relations with Cuba began in June 2013. They bore fruit with Obama's announcement yesterday.

I predicted years earlier including in my book that this very-exact grand trine of Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune would coincide with some peace and diplomatic breakthroughs and constitutional advances. A great many breakthroughs appeared, though most of them did not bear fruit. Negotiations between the Taliban and the Afghan government began. New nuclear agreements with Russia occured. An Arab-Israeli negotiation was started. The US began supporting Syrian rebels, which is the only way to peace in that civil war. And there were other events like this, most of which have led nowhere yet. But that doesn't mean they didn't happen at the time predicted. I knew that the difficult aspects in the Spring of 2014 would probably keep things troubled in the world, as they did, so I didn't predict an outbreak of world peace because of the grand trine; just some progress.

A new president was elected in Iran, which led to the ongoing nuclear negotiations. We don't yet know that they will succeed, but they continue.

President Morsi was overthrown in Egypt. A new constitution was developed that offers a chance for the people to vote for more freedom. But their in first election later, they voted for a former general who led the coup against Morsi, and he has cracked down on demonstrators from all sides, and released Mubarek who was overthrown in the Arab Spring uprisings of 2011. So, partial results there as well.

Pope Francis got a massive welcome when he visited his home region that month. It was he who sponsored the Cuba negotiations, and he is reforming his church.

Conservatives naturally want to resist this breakthrough between the USA and Cuba too. So, partial results again for this one, but the future direction is likely set.

From Newsmax:

Angry over President Barack Obama’s decision to re-establish diplomatic relations with Cuba, key Senate Republicans are promising to do everything in their power to keep it from happening.

According to Politico, members of the GOP are vowing to “deny Obama funds to reopen an embassy in Havana, stall the nomination of a potential ambassador, vote down a bill to open up travel more widely and ignore requests from the White House to lift a decades-old embargo.”

During a nationally televised speech on Wednesday, Obama told Americans that he is re-establishing, as soon as possible, an embassy in Havana. Travel restrictions will be rolled back and the U.S. will increase remittance levels, expand commercial sales and exports.

And Secretary of State John Kerry has been directed to “review Cuba’s place on a list of state sponsors of terrorism.”

Republican Sens. Lindsey Graham, John McCain, Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz immediately derided Obama’s plans and vowed to keep them from coming to fruition.

“I will do all in my power to block the use of funds to open an embassy in Cuba. Normalizing relations with Cuba is bad idea at a bad time,” Graham wrote on Twitter, adding that it was “an incredibly bad idea.”

Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.Newsmax.com/Headline/Lind...#ixzz3MHueLOZN

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Considering this graphic, can there be any question which generation archetype fits which element?

hmmm.

Earth- Artist
Water- Prophet
Fire- civic
Air- Nomad?

Could actually switch to:

Earth- Prophet
Water- Artist

Originally Posted by millennialX

hmmm.

Earth- Artist
Water- Prophet
Fire- civic
Air- Nomad?

Could actually switch to:

Earth- Prophet
Water- Artist

No; I would think this would be hard to miss.
You got one right; water = artist.
Good to hear from you.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

No; I would think this would be hard to miss.
You got one right; water = artist.
Good to hear from you.

You to.

So what's your correct answer, then?

Originally Posted by millennialX

You to.

So what's your correct answer, then?

I can't resist:



The answers should be obvious.

Try again, from the base I have given you (water = artist)