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Thread: Astrological cycles and turnings - Page 15







Post#351 at 12-23-2014 05:33 PM by decadeologist101 [at joined Jun 2014 #posts 899]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
No; I would think this would be hard to miss.
You got one right; water = artist.
Good to hear from you.
Is air prophet, fire nomad, and earth civic?
Last edited by decadeologist101; 12-23-2014 at 05:36 PM.







Post#352 at 12-23-2014 06:18 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by decadeologist101 View Post
Is air prophet, fire nomad, and earth civic?
No, of course not.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#353 at 12-23-2014 10:43 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Prophet = Fire = Intuition
Nomad = Air = Thinking
Civic = Earth = Sensation
Artist = Water = Feeling
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#354 at 12-24-2014 10:20 PM by decadeologist101 [at joined Jun 2014 #posts 899]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Prophet = Fire = Intuition
Nomad = Air = Thinking
Civic = Earth = Sensation
Artist = Water = Feeling
Funny thing is I'm a civic and my strongest trait is intuition. I don't see things for how they are but for the potential they can be. I don't really get along with sensors as much.







Post#355 at 03-29-2015 12:57 AM by mockingbirdstl [at USA joined May 2014 #posts 399]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Prophet = Fire = Intuition
Nomad = Air = Thinking
Civic = Earth = Sensation
Artist = Water = Feeling
I haven't really read astrology since I was young, but I know that the elements appear in the signs in a specific order:fire, earth, air, and water, and then back to fire to repeat the sequence. For example, Aries (fire), Taurus (earth), Gemini (air)and Cancer (water) and then to Leo (fire). So if we go by this we must align the generations, in their order, with this to keep the proper cycle. As such, here is my interpretation of the generation types as astrological elements--for what it's worth!

Artists=air
Prophets=water
Nomads=fire
Civics=earth

Air represents the intellect, the freedom of the mind to flow from one concept to the next. Artists are also called Adaptives, and “adaptive” is one of the most common descriptions of air sign people. Air people are mentally agile, they have the ability to understand multiple perspectives and are sensitive to nuance. Silent politicians were noted for their diplomacy and skill at negotiation. On a personal level, air people can sometimes be flighty and not well grounded, and are uncomfortable with overt displays of emotion. But their judicious detachment often makes them the most humane of all the types. It was while this generation came to prominence that many of the great civil rights advancements happened during the High and Awakening, and they produced so many of the leaders for that movement, as well as for the women's rights and anti-war movements. My parents are both core Silents, so I have some close experience with the type. They were(are) wonderful, loving parents, but they were not exactly touchy-feely types. I can't really remember ever being hugged or kissed by them. Or even being told they loved me...if they did, it was pretty rarely. That sounds really bad, I suppose, but I never once doubted they loved me...they would have starved rather than let me or my brother go hungry. I do remember them telling me how intelligent I was, how creative I was. That's artists for you...they are more comfortable with ideas and intellect, that is where they live.

That all changed when the Baby Boomers came along. The Boomers were all about feelings. Whoa, whoa, whoa feelings. Water is about emotions, visions, the soul. What is good for your soul? Inward-looking, self examination, reflection...leading to outward crusading. The Boomers were the powerhouse of the Awakening (if not perhaps the initiators) and made self help books and charismatic megachurches a thing. Concerning Vietnam, the Silents began by questioning whether the war was truly working, but as more Boomers came on the scene it increasingly became a moral issue. The Boomers were concerned with questions of Good and Evil, Right and Wrong, and being a dominant generation, they could be very charismatic and persuasive. Young Xers would either jump into their ideas, feet first and unthinkingly, or would revolt against them, fearing watery Boomer moralizing dampening their high spirits. More often than not,though, their moral compass is true. The Boomers friends I know have heart, and a kind of innate wisdom. The emotion of water flowed into popular music during the 2T, turning greaser rock-n-roll into long,moody art pieces (after first going through a moment of mind-bending psychedelia).

In popular lexicon, the New Age movement of the 60s and 70s is sometimes called the Age of Aquarius; aquarius is of course an air sign, and it is also the “water bearer.” In my opinion the Silents/air and Boomers/water dynamic powered the Awakening—the convergence of mind and soul. It gave rise to the belief among some during the 2T that through power of will and consciousness one could achieve happiness,morality, a higher spiritual state and a better world. “Mindfulness,” as Eric puts it.

From here we move on to the next archetype, the nomads, and the next element, fire. Fire people are impulsive, individualistic, and daring (physically and otherwise). Fire element people are not inclined to pause and think before acting, or spend a lot of time examining their feelings, they Just Do It--as the old Nike ad (aimed at Gen Xers) put it. The “flaming youth” of the 1920s. Extreme sports, pit moshing, the agitated noise that drove elders crazy. Punk rock (and much of later music that was inspired by it—industrial, grunge, etc), was both aggressive yet philosophical—primitive, iconoclastic, provocative, satirical—definitely an Aries/Sagittarius thing, to me. Highly percussive rap and hip hop is also of the element fire (with some Leonine self-aggrandizing, and perhaps a bit of airy verbosity.) Fire is reactive and instinctive and, if untempered, can sometimes be given to aggression and violence; there was, after all, that spike in violent crime that occurred as core Xers came of age (though it was not widespread among us). Fire sign people are also known to speak without due consideration or tact. I remember someone on these threads making a remark about Xers having a “foot in the mouth” problem. http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...ommit-Treason/ However, fire people are highly intuitive—with “flashes” of inspiration—and good at making quick but sound decisions; this can make them natural leaders. It seems to me there is a good cosmic reason why crises come at a time when nomads are at the prime of their adult lives. Nomads have pulled through for everyone in the past, inspiring the troops/whipping them into shape, making the tough decisions; we shall see if Gen X can pull through for us today...

The Good Earth. One thing that strikes me about Millennials is how grounded and, well, sane they seem compared with many of their elders. Millennials are more security-focused and cautious, in keeping with earth sign qualities. They are less likely to to have credit card, auto or housing debt than the nomads before them were at their age, and according to DC funds data, have the most conservative portfolio selection of any age bracket under 65. http://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe...n-part-6-of-7/ They are less inclined to risky behavior (drops in drug use, teen pregnancy, crime), and are family-oriented. Their “hipsters” are lovers of nostalgia, and conversely, technology—steam punk,Victorian beards and moustaches, iphones. They romanticize the past,while seeking to fully utilize technology as it develops. The gift of earth is to give form to ideas. As others have pointed out, the nomads and the civics are the builders of the new 1T world. Air and water awaken, fire and earth create. The artists and prophets are the first to question the existing order and envision ideas for what a future order should embody, nomads then venture out into the upturned 3T world to bring the “spark of life” to the body that they and civics will struggle to build and fight for in the 4T, and that civics will manage in the 1T. That is, ideally anyway,how it should work, according to the generation theory.
Last edited by mockingbirdstl; 03-29-2015 at 01:13 AM.
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"Good girls go to heaven, bad girls go everywhere." --Mae West
Nomad INFP
"Sunday morning is every day for all I care, and I'm not scared...Now my candle's in a daze 'cause I've found God." --Kurt Cobain







Post#356 at 03-29-2015 01:29 PM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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Quote Originally Posted by decadeologist101 View Post
Funny thing is I'm a civic and my strongest trait is intuition. I don't see things for how they are but for the potential they can be. I don't really get along with sensors as much.
I'm an NF (INTUITIVE FEELER).
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#357 at 03-29-2015 02:04 PM by TnT [at joined Feb 2005 #posts 2,005]
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Quote Originally Posted by mockingbirdstl View Post
... aquarius is of course an air sign,
But of course. "Aquarius" ... "Air" ... how could anyone ever think otherwise?
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."







Post#358 at 04-03-2015 01:03 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Nice try, mockingbird. It's a good analysis. It looks like you at least put the elements in order. What you describe, is what I have called the "background" correlation, the elemental traits that the archetypes are born into and grow up in. In my analysis, they retain some of that archetype, because they imitate when young their older brothers and sisters from the previous archetype and absorb it. Then they grow up and move fully into the next element in the series. So, the mature, dominant elements for each archetype are:

fire = prophets: leaders, charismatic, outspoken, confident, inspirational, prophetic, independent, self-assertive and self-centered, temperamental and sometimes destructive.
earth = nomads: pragmatic, practical, resourceful, independent, enduring, sensual, money-oriented, narrow-minded, administrators, good workers, must often struggle for what they get.
air = civics: collegial, intellectual, institutional, relationship and group oriented, emotionally-detached, rational, idealistic, sometimes dependent on others or society, or opportunistic.
water = artists: emotional, people-oriented, adaptive, sympathetic, nurturing, tolerant, intuitive, artistic, indecisive or timid, unstable, self-effacing, suppressed or introverted, sensitive, sometimes lucky or fortunate.

This correlation is in accord with astrology, and it fits the generations to a T.

Silents = unemotional and intellectual? Noooooooooo......... "people who need people are the luckiest people in the world" read the book......

By the way, you admit prophets are a "dominant generation." Therefore they must be fire, because fire is yang/positive/dominant and water is yin/recessive/receptive. yin and yang are very much a part of astrology. Fire and air are the yang/dominant elements = prophets and civics. Earth and water are yin/recessive = nomads and artists.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 04-03-2015 at 02:11 AM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#359 at 04-03-2015 01:14 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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It looks like another of my predictions came true today. The grand trine of Summer 2013 has proven itself, finally. Jordan and my other detractors can eat their words now. (fat chance??)

The Iranian nuc deal achieved an historic breakthrough. Remember I predicted breakthroughs in international relations would occur during and following the grand trine of Summer 2013. That's when Rohani was elected president of Iran, promising to open negotiations and get the sanctions lifted from his country. It looks like success, as I predicted! We get some good news; rejoice and be glad.

Summer 2013 was also when newly-chosen Pope Francis not only visited his homeland for the first time, giving him a radiant aura of hope, but spearheaded the negotiations that opened relations between Cuba and the USA. Morsi was overthrown in Egypt, paving the way for a new constitution. The USA started supporting the Syrian moderate rebels, the first sign of our eventual re-engagement in middle east wars (I also predicted this was the time that another US involvement would begin, because of the exact Jupiter return during this grand trine. In the case of Syria, US help for the moderate rebels is in fact the only route to peace there; though still a ways away). The start of Afghan negotiations with the Taliban occured; plus other agreements.

My video of my Dec. 2012 predictions for 2013 and beyond:
https://youtu.be/cyVolXreDXY
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#360 at 04-03-2015 01:20 AM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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Hmmm... Needs different approach.

fire = prophets [ makes noxious chemicals, ashes, used in industrial processes, tends to ruin everything it touches]
earth =nomads [full of worms, full of plant roots, allergenic, clogs filters, can be topped with assorted shit]
air = civics: [spawns hurricanes and tornadoes , can get stagnant, can also blow around a lot, known for having airheads]
water = artists [can flood things and ruin roads and bridges, fickle, some is full of fish shit, corrodes iron, if in the form of snow or ice, causes wrecks ]

This correlation is in accord with astrology.
... Or what they do IRL.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#361 at 04-03-2015 12:51 PM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
Hmmm... Needs different approach.

fire = prophets [ makes noxious chemicals, ashes, used in industrial processes, tends to ruin everything it touches]
earth =nomads [full of worms, full of plant roots, allergenic, clogs filters, can be topped with assorted shit]
air = civics: [spawns hurricanes and tornadoes , can get stagnant, can also blow around a lot, known for having airheads]
water = artists [can flood things and ruin roads and bridges, fickle, some is full of fish shit, corrodes iron, if in the form of snow or ice, causes wrecks ]



... Or what they do IRL.
This works for me!
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#362 at 04-03-2015 01:12 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Leave it to Xers to look on the dark side lol
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#363 at 04-06-2015 05:01 PM by mockingbirdstl [at USA joined May 2014 #posts 399]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
It's a good analysis.
Thank you.

Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
What you describe, is what I have called the "background" correlation, the elemental traits that the archetypes are born into and grow up in. In my analysis, they retain some of that archetype, because they imitate when young their older brothers and sisters from the previous archetype and absorb it. Then they grow up and move fully into the next element in the series.
People do change as they age and mature. They pick up attitudes of those around them, they change to suit changing situations, they change to better relate to the generations younger than them.

But your youngest self is your truest self, your purest self. However you change in life, it is there within you, coloring your outlook, informing your actions and decisions. When a young archetype first expresses itself, it is not imitating the earlier archetype, it is rebelling against it. Maybe not necessarily rebelling, rather reacting against the mood and attitudes set by the previous generation. This is what youth does--and Artists do it an airy, intellectual way, Prophets in a watery, moralistic way, Nomads in a fiery, individualistic way, and Civics in an earthy, constructive way, as I see it.

Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Silents = unemotional and intellectual? Noooooooooo......... "people who need people are the luckiest people in the world" read the book......
Yes, actually...I think this might be the archetype and element pairing I feel the most confident about. Silents were intellectual, more-so than the GIs who were generally more down-to-earth and action-oriented. And while I don't like the term "unemotional" (no one is without emotions), they were emotionally repressed, particularly the early and core Silents. Strauss and Howe wrote about this, I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. A strong literary example of the Artist type would be Henry James' flighty and intellectual young Isabel Archer (Portrait of a Lady, 1881), whom Sartre once likened to a "bust with wings." In fact, I would even argue that the song you quoted illustrates my interpretation better than yours. For what is Babs doing when sings those lyrics? She is theorizing about love. She is singing about the idea of love.

Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
By the way, you admit prophets are a "dominant generation." Therefore they must be fire, because fire is yang/positive/dominant and water is yin/recessive/receptive. yin and yang are very much a part of astrology. Fire and air are the yang/dominant elements = prophets and civics. Earth and water are yin/recessive = nomads and artists.
This did actually occur to me, but I'm not entirely convinced that because Boomers and Millies are dominant generations it necessarily follows that they are best represented by yang elements. The prevailing characteristics of water (emotional, sentimental, visionary) and earth (practical, earnest, goal-oriented) to me suit them best; not perfectly, but better than fire and air. And it seems to me the main reason they are considered dominant archetypes is simply because there are more of them, at least in the 20th century. The are the "majority" and are generally more catered to and have more attention paid to them, which gives them more confidence...they also have the numbers to better achieve the goals they might collectively aspire to.
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"Good girls go to heaven, bad girls go everywhere." --Mae West
Nomad INFP
"Sunday morning is every day for all I care, and I'm not scared...Now my candle's in a daze 'cause I've found God." --Kurt Cobain







Post#364 at 04-06-2015 11:36 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by mockingbirdstl View Post
Thank you.

People do change as they age and mature. They pick up attitudes of those around them, they change to suit changing situations, they change to better relate to the generations younger than them.

But your youngest self is your truest self, your purest self. However you change in life, it is there within you, coloring your outlook, informing your actions and decisions. When a young archetype first expresses itself, it is not imitating the earlier archetype, it is rebelling against it. Maybe not necessarily rebelling, rather reacting against the mood and attitudes set by the previous generation. This is what youth does--and Artists do it an airy, intellectual way, Prophets in a watery, moralistic way, Nomads in a fiery, individualistic way, and Civics in an earthy, constructive way, as I see it.
I think the mature self is the real self; which people begin to unfold in youth/adolescence as they find themselves. The childhood self is what you inherit from your environment.

Yes, actually...I think this might be the archetype and element pairing I feel the most confident about. Silents were intellectual, more-so than the GIs who were generally more down-to-earth and action-oriented. And while I don't like the term "unemotional" (no one is without emotions), they were emotionally repressed, particularly the early and core Silents. Strauss and Howe wrote about this, I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. A strong literary example of the Artist type would be Henry James' flighty and intellectual young Isabel Archer (Portrait of a Lady, 1881), whom Sartre once likened to a "bust with wings." In fact, I would even argue that the song you quoted illustrates my interpretation better than yours. For what is Babs doing when sings those lyrics? She is theorizing about love. She is singing about the idea of love.
That's a stretch! But what she sang, the authors said, represented the interests of Silents: interest in people; need for people. Feelings. Adaptives, like water, they take the shape of their contents. I don't see them as intellectual at all; the GIs were that. GIs were preoccupied with science and tech, and group collegiality. Just like Millies. Silents were about adjusting to their bad emotional upbringing, like the sign Cancer. They were the ones who invented transactional analysis; less well known today, but for them, all-important. Games People Play; I'm OK, you're OK. Encounter groups. Deserting children to pursue social issues and self-liberation. Their childhood repression made them turn inward, and that's what made them artists. It's all about feeling. Nomads OTOH are preoccupied with survival. They are "sharp-eyed survivalists," acc to S&H. Good at making do with less opportunity and more neglect. VERY Pessimistic. That's earth all the way, and not very fiery in that respect.

This did actually occur to me, but I'm not entirely convinced that because Boomers and Millies are dominant generations it necessarily follows that they are best represented by yang elements. The prevailing characteristics of water (emotional, sentimental, visionary) and earth (practical, earnest, goal-oriented) to me suit them best; not perfectly, but better than fire and air. And it seems to me the main reason they are considered dominant archetypes is simply because there are more of them, at least in the 20th century. The are the "majority" and are generally more catered to and have more attention paid to them, which gives them more confidence...they also have the numbers to better achieve the goals they might collectively aspire to.
To an astrologer like me, the yang element must represent the dominant archetype. It's the rules; it's what yang means as opposed to yin.

"Two forces in the universe, according to a Chinese theory: yin is the passive, negative force, and yang the active, positive force."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/yin+and+yang

The dominant archetypes (Boomers, Millennials, GIs, Missionaries) set the agenda. The receptive archetypes (Lost, Silents, Xers) are mediators. That's not a matter of numbers; it's the archetypal nature as described by the authors.

Boomer Prophets are not very sentimental or emotional. Music tells the tale. It's the Silents who wrote that kind of music. Prophet music was loud and assertive, and increasingly tended toward raucous noise. The best music of the Awakening was created by the late Silents. It revealed sensitivity and spirituality to the max. "I look at clouds from both sides now." An "Artist" is almost by definition emotional, not intellectual; strange as that may seem to intellectual X/Yers and Millennials (who for example tend to see "music" as lyrics). Prophet music was fiery; it's about assertive energy, from the Beach Boys to Bruce Springsteen to Black Sabbath. "I Get Around" man! Party animals. Nomad Xer music is by and large extremely boring and lackluster, when it's not sheer noise, and also monumentally cynical (even if brilliant in that way, in the lyrics). It's lack of musical sensitivity reveals a limited perspective. Again, earth all the way, and not fire at all. Fire is the most optimistic, idealistic element; not water. Fire and prophets are emotional, but it's ardour, enthusiasm, arrogance; and not very sensitive to hurt feelings.

Silents set the agenda for the Awakening, and wrote the visionary books; Boomers were the shock troops. Boomers lowered the boom, and played the boom box. At our best, boomers are inspirational and charismatic, and interested in philosophy, prophecy and wisdom, like Sagittarius. In old age, however, Silents are the most insecure-- voting Republican, whereas the GIs never did. Emotion rules again.

Thanks mockingbird, I appreciate the thoughts and the debate.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 04-07-2015 at 12:11 AM.
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Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#365 at 04-08-2015 06:28 PM by mockingbirdstl [at USA joined May 2014 #posts 399]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
I think the mature self is the real self; which people begin to unfold in youth/adolescence as they find themselves. The childhood self is what you inherit from your environment.
Well, when you're a child you're just playing with your toys and your little buddies. By youthful self I'm talking about when you first become aware of the outside world and start interacting with it, and start thinking about things and expressing yourself, which would be teens and twenties. This is what I consider the “purest” self. And young archetypes, as they go through this phase, are expressing themselves in reaction to and differentiation from the moods and attitudes set by the previous generation. Then as you age and mature, you gain different perspectives. You become more complex, not more simple and basic—but your youthful self still remains within. And it is my opinion that the artist archetype's basic self is intellectual, the prophet's moralistic, the nomad's individualistic, and the civic's structuralist. Air, water, fire, earth. You're the astrologer, I guess, but to me it just makes more sense...and I think it fits better with the theory of the Turnings, as well. Air and water, mind and emotion, are ideological—the first to question the existing structure, then challenge it on moral grounds. Fire and earth are physical, form creating. Fire gives vitality to earth's new structure, hammered out during the 4T, and presented in completed form in the 1T. The new structure will not be without flaws, however, or the world circumstances will change and outgrow the existing order, and then the process starts again.

By the way, I'd always understood being “people-oriented” and “adaptive” as air sign traits—especially Gemini, the zodiac social butterfly, easily fitting into every scene and situation. I don't know why you assign them to water. And “institutional”--I would have thought that would describe earth better than air—they generally favor institutions and structures, air likes to be free.
And I don't really see how “cynicism” and “flinty-eyed survivalism” figure as general earth sign traits. Maybe for Capricorn. But I see further up-thread that you have assigned Capricorn to the Civics...that doesn't really make sense.
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"Good girls go to heaven, bad girls go everywhere." --Mae West
Nomad INFP
"Sunday morning is every day for all I care, and I'm not scared...Now my candle's in a daze 'cause I've found God." --Kurt Cobain







Post#366 at 04-08-2015 06:37 PM by mockingbirdstl [at USA joined May 2014 #posts 399]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Prophet music was loud and assertive, and increasingly tended toward raucous noise.
It increasingly tended toward raucous noise because it was getting closer to X!! You mentioned Black Sabbath; heavy metal is definitely a fiery genre, and invented by Boomers. But it really took off when Gen Jones and X came along. The first fans were Jonesers. Core Boomers generally don't like metal. Jonesers and Xers took it and ran with it...and it increasingly became harder, louder, more aggressive. I consider early heavy metal to be something of a mixture of water and fire. Romantic, operatic, often with spiritual overtones (dark spirituality, but spirituality all the same). Consider this, the first song from Black Sabbath's first album, and its watery gloominess and religious themes:



And I'm sorry, Eric, but if you can't appreciate 3T era music (as other non-Xers have done), then it is you who is being “narrow minded” and “limited in your perspective.” I, for one, love music of all eras. Some more than others, perhaps, but I'm not going to be so stupid as to write off an entire era in that thick and unimaginative way. All you're doing is showing your prejudice.
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"Good girls go to heaven, bad girls go everywhere." --Mae West
Nomad INFP
"Sunday morning is every day for all I care, and I'm not scared...Now my candle's in a daze 'cause I've found God." --Kurt Cobain







Post#367 at 04-08-2015 07:48 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by mockingbirdstl View Post
It increasingly tended toward raucous noise because it was getting closer to X!! You mentioned Black Sabbath; heavy metal is definitely a fiery genre, and invented by Boomers. But it really took off when Gen Jones and X came along. The first fans were Jonesers. Core Boomers generally don't like metal. Jonesers and Xers took it and ran with it...and it increasingly became harder, louder, more aggressive. I consider early heavy metal to be something of a mixture of water and fire. Romantic, operatic, often with spiritual overtones (dark spirituality, but spirituality all the same). Consider this, the first song from Black Sabbath's first album, and its watery gloominess and religious themes:

I hear no water in heavy metal. It is fire and earth; musty and gloomy and loud, with no redeeming value, generally speaking.

But quite so, it originates from Boomer fire. Xers just took it farther-- down hill. And added other genres like grunge and punk, the latter of which has some redeeming value as pop punk.



And I'm sorry, Eric, but if you can't appreciate 3T era music (as other non-Xers have done), then it is you who is being “narrow minded” and “limited in your perspective.” I, for one, love music of all eras. Some more than others, perhaps, but I'm not going to be so stupid as to write off an entire era in that thick and unimaginative way. All you're doing is showing your prejudice.
I call it as I hear it. That's it. Xer music is, overall, really pathetic. But there's always exceptions. Still, nothing stands out as equal to the best songs of the Awakening, until perhaps a few millie songs of recent years-- maybe. No, the traits of Gen X music are easy to categorize as narrow-minded and down-to-earth pessimistic. I do give credit to their cynical but brilliant protest lyrics; millie lyrics are shallow by comparison. And I am not deceived enough to think that music of all eras is equal.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#368 at 04-08-2015 08:05 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by mockingbirdstl View Post
Well, when you're a child you're just playing with your toys and your little buddies. By youthful self I'm talking about when you first become aware of the outside world and start interacting with it, and start thinking about things and expressing yourself, which would be teens and twenties. This is what I consider the “purest” self. And young archetypes, as they go through this phase, are expressing themselves in reaction to and differentiation from the moods and attitudes set by the previous generation. Then as you age and mature, you gain different perspectives. You become more complex, not more simple and basic—but your youthful self still remains within.

I don't disagree so far; youth self is authentic self, and adults just build on it, or lose touch with it.

And it is my opinion that the artist archetype's basic self is intellectual, the prophet's moralistic, the nomad's individualistic, and the civic's structuralist. Air, water, fire, earth. You're the astrologer, I guess, but to me it just makes more sense...and I think it fits better with the theory of the Turnings, as well. Air and water, mind and emotion, are ideological—the first to question the existing structure, then challenge it on moral grounds. Fire and earth are physical, form creating. Fire gives vitality to earth's new structure, hammered out during the 4T, and presented in completed form in the 1T. The new structure will not be without flaws, however, or the world circumstances will change and outgrow the existing order, and then the process starts again.
It just doesn't fit. Artists are not intellectuals. But it makes some sense; you can make sense out of any progression, I guess, as other people have made sense out of still other schemes.

By the way, I'd always understood being “people-oriented” and “adaptive” as air sign traits—especially Gemini, the zodiac social butterfly, easily fitting into every scene and situation. I don't know why you assign them to water. And “institutional”--I would have thought that would describe earth better than air—they generally favor institutions and structures, air likes to be free.
And I don't really see how “cynicism” and “flinty-eyed survivalism” figure as general earth sign traits. Maybe for Capricorn. But I see further up-thread that you have assigned Capricorn to the Civics...that doesn't really make sense.
I thought you might think this. As I experienced the Silent Generation, though, they were seeking to recover their feelings, and were not so much into science and tech like intellectual civics are. Air signs are people oriented, in that they are good at forming social networks and superficial relationships. Water signs like I claim that Silents are, want to deepen their relationships, and loosen inhibitions, heal wounds, etc. Silents were all about that.

Earth signs, Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn, are alike survivalists, and thus pragmatic, and pessimistic because when you are concerned with survival, you get narrow minded. That's Xers. But yes, remember I said that the archetypes have the background of the previous element, which is your scheme. They do retain some aspects of that element, IMO. Or the previous generation passes it on to them. Thus the individualism of Boomers was passed on to Xers, for example. My thought is that they progress through cardinal, fixed and mutable for each type. Cardinal signs first, of the background element, then fixed and mutable signs for the youth and adult phases. So, though Boomers are primarily fire, and thus optimistic, visionary, confident, arrogant, individualistic, etc., they have water as their other element; and so on.

Saying that "civics like institutions, so they don't like to be free as air is," perhaps displays some of the libertarian mindset on your part, so popular in this extended 3T era. No, air is the intellectual element, and structures are intellectual; air, not earth. Earth is about security and stability. Nomads are pragmatic, because they feel they might not survive. They are preoccupied with finding security and getting jobs done. That was the difference the authors noted, when the philosophical, questioning attitude of boomers was replaced by the no nonsense "let's get on with making money" attitude of Xers in their classes. It's not just that Xers like to just do it and like action; they like action for the purpose of making money and establishing security. Then, in later life, perhaps as Virgos, they become more service oriented; or at least good administrators.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#369 at 04-09-2015 01:02 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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And Eric proves again that he has no taste in music!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#370 at 04-09-2015 09:16 AM by mockingbirdstl [at USA joined May 2014 #posts 399]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Saying that "civics like institutions, so they don't like to be free as air is," perhaps displays some of the libertarian mindset on your part, so popular in this extended 3T era. No, air is the intellectual element, and structures are intellectual; air, not earth. Earth is about security and stability.
No, I'm not thinking along Libertarian lines at all. You're going to have to explain what you mean a little better. Institutions and structures are physical. They are practical manifestations addressing the need for security and stability. They are valued by earth sign people. The only earth sign that tends toward cynicism and survivalist mentality is Capricorn, but even Capricorn prefers to work within institutions and structures. A crisis situation uncovers the need for stability and a new and better order. It is earth's job to create this, making form out of chaos. They don't do it alone, of course. They are inspired and directed by fire people. And older water people provide moral vision from wisdom gained in the Awakening, putting the brakes on if things start to go in the wrong direction.
Last edited by mockingbirdstl; 04-09-2015 at 09:44 AM.
Nomad Female
"Good girls go to heaven, bad girls go everywhere." --Mae West
Nomad INFP
"Sunday morning is every day for all I care, and I'm not scared...Now my candle's in a daze 'cause I've found God." --Kurt Cobain







Post#371 at 04-09-2015 09:26 AM by mockingbirdstl [at USA joined May 2014 #posts 399]
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Nomads="good workers"

Nomad Female
"Good girls go to heaven, bad girls go everywhere." --Mae West
Nomad INFP
"Sunday morning is every day for all I care, and I'm not scared...Now my candle's in a daze 'cause I've found God." --Kurt Cobain







Post#372 at 04-09-2015 02:20 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by mockingbirdstl View Post
No, I'm not thinking along Libertarian lines at all. You're going to have to explain what you mean a little better. Institutions and structures are physical. They are practical manifestations addressing the need for security and stability. They are valued by earth sign people. The only earth sign that tends toward cynicism and survivalist mentality is Capricorn, but even Capricorn prefers to work within institutions and structures. A crisis situation uncovers the need for stability and a new and better order. It is earth's job to create this, making form out of chaos. They don't do it alone, of course. They are inspired and directed by fire people. And older water people provide moral vision from wisdom gained in the Awakening, putting the brakes on if things start to go in the wrong direction.
I should explain what I mean by Xer music first. If people say they like the Xer/3T era music as well as others, they are saying they like a darker, blander and noisier music as well as other kinds. I don't, but that's just my preference. I don't think you can deny those traits of their music though, and thus how it fits the earth element. I would not prejudically reject anything I hear just because it is created by Xers or between the years of 1985 and 2009. I am open to whatever is created, but I have my preferences. And some Xers are among those making music that I like better, now that the 4T has replaced the downcast and dark/pessimistic 3T era. I think Pharrell Williams is an Xer, for example, if I'm not mistaken. Lots of people including me like his famous upbeat song.

Other earth signs are also pessimistic or narrowly-focused, to the extent that they all tend toward a survivalist mentality. For Taurus, security and making money is uppermost. And Virgo in its analytical bent cannot see forests for trees, and Virgos are usually anxious. As an astrologer, I know that Capricorn is not the only survivalist among earth signs. Capricorn is the only earth sign interested in institutions, because it sees its own status as necessary to its security.

Institutions are not primarily physical; that's just the bricks and mortar. Today, "institutions" exist in cyber-clouds. But civics are building them. Structure is intellectual; institutions are built from law, logic and order, and that is intellectual and not physical. For example, the US constitution was created during a powerful grand trine of outer planets in air signs in 1787. Physical, however, is primarily sensation as well as thought.

Yes, a Crisis situation "uncovers the need for stability and a new and better order," but mostly only at the end of the 4T, and through the 1T. Mostly, the 4T is about upending the older order, which must be done before a new order can be built. We haven't even got that far yet, by a long shot. In a typical 4T, revolution or war seems necessary for the nation to survive. The nomads are the earth people in this mix, and the prophets are the leaders or fire people. There is no water left in a 4T; that's why the other elements have free rein to go overboard without the calming and nurturing influence of water. "Moral vision" comes from fire. When the 1T comes, earthy nomads become the leaders, and what they want is order, stability and relief from change. That's what a 1T brings: stability and relief. It puts the changes of the 4T on a firm foundation. That's what earth does, and in a 1T, earthy nomads have become the elder leaders, just as fiery prophets were in the 4T. And the cranky old fogey nomads say to young people, "get off my lawn!"

My knowledge of the esoteric philosophy from which astrology comes is a help to me in organizing these ideas and archetypes. Fire represents intuition and inspiration. It is light, as well as heat. Intuition enables people to see archetypes, and that's where ideas of good and evil and ethical wisdom come from. Watery "intuition" OTOH is based on feeling and receptivity. That is different, and does not lead to leadership. Silents are poor leaders, and not a single Silent was ever elected president. Silents are silent followers, for the most part. They did go through their more-activist liberation phase in mid-life, thus creating the "mid-life" crisis, which did not exist until they invented it. In other periods however, Silents were conformists, not leaders. That's how they got their name.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece
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