Let's use this topic to identify specific elements of American society--politics, economics, culture, religion, family life, and more--that suggest (1) we may still be in a Third Turning, or, alternatively (2) the Fourth Turning has started. These can be items in the news, large and small--or aspects of your own daily lives that offer useful pieces of evidence of either a Third or Fourth Turning.

Please, let's keep all posts on this topic on this point only.

Here's today's evidence we're still in a 3T:

Celebrities were featured in today's memorial ceremony at Yankee Stadium.

Federal officials are downplaying any talk of a return to a military draft.

Gary Condit was named to the Homeland Security Committee.

-------

Here's today's evidence we're moving into a 4T:

There's talk, in the UK and US, of requiring citizens to obtain and carry national identity cards.

CNN ran an hour-long piece on Afghanistan that depicted the Taliban as a force cruel enough to warrant being totally destroyed, not just contained or defeated in battle.

On 2001-09-23 19:03, William Strauss wrote:
Here's today's evidence we're still in a 3T:

Celebrities were featured in today's memorial ceremony at Yankee Stadium.

Federal officials are downplaying any talk of a return to a military draft.

Gary Condit was named to the Homeland Security Committee.

-------

Here's today's evidence we're moving into a 4T:

There's talk, in the UK and US, of requiring citizens to obtain and carry national identity cards.

CNN ran an hour-long piece on Afghanistan that depicted the Taliban as a force cruel enough to warrant being totally destroyed, not just contained or defeated in battle.

I think Bill you are entering a transition period, however there are good signs than North Americia is in a 4T, public attuides about war have changed drastically, the officals are talking about this war being along one and a total one like WW2. How officals are talking about total destruction of Bin Laden and Minions I doubt they are thinking of re-introuducting the draft because they do not bevelie it will be necessary yet, This war is a different kind of war to WW2. We face a different enemy and have to use different methods, I could see the draft re-introudced if Americia gets bogged down in Afghanistan, invading via the Khyber pass is very hard. 11-9-2001 will be remembered in history as the day everything changed and nothing will be the same again. It will take a few months, prehaps a couple of years to be sure North Americia is in a 3T, however I think it has already started.

Here's today's evidence we're still in a 3T:

At http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ today
the lead headline was:

Michael Jordan to play hoop in D.C.

And below the fold was:
WAR ON TERROR
1st shots fired
on Afghan soil

And here at T4T.com, a thread, called Generations and Turnings by the Numbers,
I just recently started has already begun to "Flame" with 102 posts (Only five other threads here can claim that distinction btw). A discussion on the numbers per the current "generational constellation" is ongoing in this thread.

Oh yeah, and I kust saw where Britney Spears is about to headline and all-star cast on tour for the boys in uniform. Which was a no=brainer prediction I made sometime ago. Should prove interesting. Will she do her pole-dance routine? :smile:

On 2001-09-23 19:03, William Strauss wrote:


-------

Here's today's evidence we're moving into a 4T:
CNN ran an hour-long piece on Afghanistan that depicted the Taliban as a force cruel enough to warrant being totally destroyed, not just contained or defeated in battle.

CNN ran an hourlong piece on [insert 2nd or Third World Country here] that depicted the [insert present leadership] as a force cruel enough to warrant being totally destroyed not just contained or defeated in battle. Paging Christine Amanpour for another 3T turn. HTH

I believe that this demonstrates that if the theory of generations and turnings is correct then we are either in a fourth turning or ready for one and it would not take much to push us into one.
I would first like to point out that if I understand Strauss and Howes theory correctly one should not expect the newest crisis to be a replication of the second. It seems to me that boiled down to its essential elements the theory basically is that in order for a society to function well the proper mixture of pragmatism, civic mindedness, spirituality, and fairness is required. During childhood three but not four of these elements will be represented by adults and one element will be lacking. Children tend to emphasize whatever they innately view as lacking during their childhood. Therefore children have a pronounced tendency to come of age emphasizing what was perceived as lacking in their childhood. However, this is only a tendency that will be present in a majority of those in that particular generation and will not be an absolute predictor of how any one particular individual will behave.
The second part of the theory holds that individuals tending to emphasize those particular elements that they came of age preoccupied with will predictably respond to external stimulus at different times of their lives. Because of the time and training required to fill various different roles at different points in time individuals exaggerating one of the aforementioned traits will tend to be clustered in differing leadership roles. Entry level jobs, middles management, and senior leadership will all be made up primarily of individuals from the same generation. These generations will tend to interact with one another and to external stimulus in predictable ways.
The theory can not and I do not believe it claims too be able to predict exactly when and exactly what will happen. It merely predicts that a fourth turning requires a crisis not that this crisis exactly mirror what happened during the last depression and world war.
For this reason I find arguments that state well we have not put Muslims in internment camps very unpersuasive, as we can not be expected to repeat something that we very recently and very publicly acknowledged was a mistake.
I also find the mere inclusion of celebrities in the ceremony in New York unpersuasive as evidence we are still in an unraveling era. After all didn't we use celebrities in World War 2 to sell war bonds, the USO, and for other purposes. I believe the heavy religions content of the same ceremony to be possible evidence of a fourth turning.
The demonization of the enemy which is occurring on more than one front, is something that does seem rather crisis ear to me. Much of the rhetoric also seems to me to be rather extreme.
However, no particular indicator will provide what I believe is the key piece of evidence as to whether we are in a crisis era or an unraveling era. I remember when the "sixties" which is generally acknowledged to be an awakening ended and the unraveling began. When it began it was a relief. The sixties in my opinion and in the opinion of many others went from being invigorating to simply seeming stupid. It was a relief to many when it ended. Though I have always thought the awakening began a bit earlier than Straus and Howe, but I have spent my life in West Texas and the awakening was never as popular here as in other regions. This current era which was ushered in with relief has now become in my opinion stupid. Excessively harsh political rhetoric over differences that were relatively trivial. Signs stating "Bush = Fascism" seemed as ridiculous to me as the fear many had in this part of the country that Al Gore's election would have led to federal agents knocking at your door to confiscate your deer rifle on January 21, 2001. We were closely divided over relatively little. Political hacks from both parties would shamelessly deny obvious truths. Democrats claiming Clinton did not lie, Republicans denying any responsibility for deficits are two examples of the depths of absurdity that politics had reached. Our culture has also reached a ridiculous level of fragmentation. In my opinion the nation is ready for this current era to end. It has become silly. One can also see indications that America was ready for this from before the attack. Think of all the polling data indicating that the public wanted the parties to work together. After the way the current leadership of both parties have worked together even for this past week no mater how much they want to they can never really go back to behaving the way they did before. They can argue and disagree but the level on which they do it will have to be different. I would be willing to bet that most Americans are enjoying this time of national unity. For this reason alone I believe that this is the beginning of the crisis era, though not necessarily the climax. Though it could be setting events in motion that will lead us to the crisis.

It would seem possible to me that this conflict on terrorism could expand to become the problem into which all other problems get rolled. For example the social security "lock box" is smashed. Trillions will have to be spent on defense and hardening the infrastructure. This could easily mean that Congress will spend the social security money, the system will approach bankruptcy much sooner than had originally been expected and both parties in a spirit of national unity could simply say we had to spend the money on defending ourselves and now the retirement age is something much higher than it is now. After all when the Social Security program was begun very few actually lived to an age where they could collect now most live well past that age. Not allowing a government funded retirement before one has become infirm would undoubtedly take much pressure off the system. The fact that this could threaten our oil supply could lead to the funding and development of alternative sources of energy. It is easy to see how this issue could develop into one that would ultimately lead to a climax such as Strauss and Howe described.

My real question is this really too early? I was born in 1961 and have never really felt like those born in the late seventies supposedly also members of the 13th generation were really all that much like me. I have also never felt that different from those born in the late fifties, though I do feel a generation gap between myself and those who were of draft age during Vietnam. But perhaps the statistical data do indicate similarities. My point is rather than this coming too early is it possible that the generational boundaries and the boundaries postulated for the turning in this cycle might be off?

One other point that we might consider in assessing the impact of these particular events. If what was reported on the Sunday morning shows is correct. (A questionable premise I will grant.) Then the leaders of the government felt personally threatened apparently the congressional leadership was actually evactuated and left alone in a room together wondering what was going to happen. The fact that they felt personally threatened may cause them to act more unified manner than they woule otherwise.

We are on the cusp. The Silents still have some influence, giving a 3T flavor to the situation. But younger people act as though they are ready-or almost ready-for a 4T.

I do not think that whether the silents have some influence is really the issue the issue is can they controll the situation and remember this is not the climax just the beginning

For what its worth, the supermarket tabloids (National Enquirer, Star, etc...) did an 360 degree about face, switching from Gary Condit, celebrity divorces, affairs, and deadly diseases, to pictures and articles about the US flag, the NY firemen, and the Taliban. However, one of them did include a headline screaming that terrorists had targeted Prince William.

It may, in fact, be the lowly mass-marketed supermarket tabloids and other lowbrow forms of "infotainment" that is the most accurate indicator of which turning we are in--and NOT the New York Times, The Washington Post, or Crossfire.

I think I might start reading The Weekly World News.

Interesting, huh?

Looking at the supermarket tabloids is not a bad idea. We might also consider the response bill maher's comment about launching cruise missels being cowardly or something to that effect. I understand federal express will no longer advertise on his show and some network affiliates including one large one has dropped his show. Sounds like possible evidence of a fourth turning.

Evidence of a 4T:

Today in my eleven-month-old's play group one of the parents described a child she had seen at the grocery store, a toddler wearing a bicycle helmet. Why is she wearing that, my friend asked, in case she falls, the toddler's mom replied.

Two weeks ago we all would have laughed and insisted that OUR kids would never be subject to that kind of over-protection. Today, some (not all) of the (Xer) parents didn't think it was such a weird idea.

BTW, 911 and what the wee ones are up to were the ONLY topics of conversation among the adults in play group.

Another thing Jenny Genser and I have noticed, Neisha--baby contrivances with MESH NETS to protect the baby from God-knows-what. I never thought those things would come back. Have you seen them too?

Also, pennies may soon be a thing of the past. I have heard talk that the US Treasury is cutting back on manufacturing them and will soon phase them out.

From the "right wing" talk radio media, I offer the following.

Evidence we are still in a 3T from Rush Limbaugh
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...k_b.guest.html

If we are in a 4T does this bode ill for Rush? He can do a great deal of flag waving, but he is best known for fighting the culture wars and partisan politics. Seems like there were some well known radio commentators of the 20's who were marginalized in the 30's.

Next, from the Claremint Institute, something I found on Dr. Laura's website.
http://www.claremont.org/precepts/303.cfm

If GenXer's are fighting the war, either this is a 3T event or the crises is early.

Finally, some things I heard on Dr. Laura's show today (I sometimes listen to brief segements as I station surf on my commute home). First a 22 year old male called in to respond to a previous caller. The previous caller was concerned about her husband (presumably a GenXer) who wanted to reenlist in the military. She was concerned for his safety and for their young childern. This 22 year old called to tell her not to worry. He and his buddies had been talking and they were willing to go and "stand in front" of anyone married or with children.

Second, a woman called to relate the story of her 17 year old daughter who had pre-enlisted in the army this summer. For two days after the attack, neither one was willing to bring up the obvious. Finally, her daughter came to her and told her at first she was trying to think of ways to get out of her obligation, but then decided if she had to go and fight she would. If she had to die she would die defending her country and "be a hero" (her words) for her mother.

This seems very 4T.

Of course, both Dr. Laura and Rush are going to have a biased audience, but this probably most closely reflects "red zone" (I use that term in its broadest sense) thinking. Most mainstream media would reflect "blue zone".

2T statement, 4T reaction:

A local history professor, Boomer I think, with a reputation for outragegous statements and pot-stirring and a constant smug, ironic, superior little smile greeted the 911 news with "Anyone who can bomb the Pentagon has my vote." The backlash has been so extreme that he was all over the mass media locally apologizing, doing an extravagant mea culpa, and may still lose his job. Campus rumor has it he's resigned.

A month ago, a lot of people were makingjokes like that. No more. And students led the backlash.

I also posted to the main 4T forum a message from Western Petroleum detailing the shift in the national mood. If I can call it up now:he Western Petroleum Marketers Assoc. included this
in their weekly newsletter. I'm not sure who the
author is, but it really puts everything into
perspective. I have sent this to almost everyone in my
address book so some of you will probably be getting
this from several other sources.
......................................
ON MONDAY.....
On Monday there were people fighting against praying
in schools.
On Tuesday you would have been hard pressed to find a
school where someone was not praying.

On Monday there were people trying to separate each
other by race, sex, color and creed.
On Tuesday they were all holding hands.

On Monday we thought that we were secure.
On Tuesday we learned better.

On Monday we were talking about heroes as being
athletes.
On Tuesday we relearned what hero meant.

On Monday people went to work at the world trade
centers as usual.
On Tuesday they died.

On Monday people were fighting the 10 commandments on
government property.
On Tuesday the same people all said 'God help us all'
while thinking 'Thou shall not kill'.

On Monday people argued with their kids about picking
up their room.
On Tuesday the same people could not get home fast
enough to hug their kids.

On Monday people picked up McDonalds for dinner.
On Tuesday they stayed home.

On Monday people were upset that their dry cleaning
was not ready on time.
On Tuesday they were lining up to give blood for the
dying.

On Monday politicians argued about budget surpluses.
On Tuesday grief stricken they sang 'God Bless
America'.

On Monday we worried about the traffic and getting to
work late.
On Tuesday we worried about a plane crashing into
your house or place of business.

On Monday we were irritated that our rebate checks
had not arrived.
On Tuesday we saw people celebrating people dying in
the USA.

On Monday some children had solid families.
On Tuesday they were orphans.

On Monday the president was going to Florida to read
to children.
On Tuesday he returned to Washington to protect our
children.

On Monday we emailed jokes.
On Tuesday we did not.

Hopefully the lessons learned in these past two
weeks, the things we have taken for granted, the
things that have been forgotten or overlooked, never
will be again.

William Strauss presents the following as evidence we are still in a 3T:

Celebrities were featured in today's memorial ceremony at Yankee Stadium.

Federal officials are downplaying any talk of a return to a military draft.

Gary Condit was named to the Homeland Security Committee.

On the first point, celebrities are ubiquitous in all Turnings. Channeling their efforts into civic purposes is a 4T sign, but this is too minor an indication to make much of.


On the second, I think that was a matter of sound policy, given the type of war we face, which calls for precision raids more than mass troops, at least for now. No indication either way.


On the third -- yep, that's a 3T sign. Must be early in the Turning still.


Marc Lamb said:

Oh yeah, and I just saw where Britney Spears is about to headline and all-star cast on tour for the boys in uniform. Which was a no=brainer prediction I made sometime ago. Should prove interesting. Will she do her pole-dance routine?

If she doesn't, the troops will surely riot.


Doc62 said:

Evidence we are still in a 3T from Rush Limbaugh

Actually I take that as evidence Rush is still in a 3T himself.

If we are in a 4T does this bode ill for Rush? He can do a great deal of flag waving, but he is best known for fighting the culture wars and partisan politics.

He might do better than you think. He might only have to change his tune a bit. Check out the act of Father Charles Coughlin from the last 4T. It's not a bad parallel, except that Coughlin was more serious and more fascistic.


Now here's my bit of evidence. Today on the news I saw a New York manufacturing company giving every one of its employees an extra $100 and telling them to go spend it to help shore up the sagging economy.

Indicators that this is 3T:

The big show with the warships leaving "secretly" -- with satellites almost anyone could get their location.

Some celebrity stories (e.g., Michael Jordan's comeback) are appearing.

The Oscars were about to move back to the Shrine Auditorium, (making it easier to do bomb sweeps) but security issues at the Kodak theater were "resolved".

The "What Teens Want" conference (presented by the WB) is still on for for November. The copy mentions GenY -- but the pictures of the kids look very Millennial.

Personal note: in the film post-production complex we're located in, the chat by the coffee bar is still celebrities, money, and other gossip.
---------------------------------
Indicators that this is 4T:

Celebrity telethon on Friday. This was a conscious effort by many entertainers to make themselves legit in the altered climate.

Jon Stewart's amazing,highly emotional, 10-minute speech at the start of the first "Daily Show" produced by Comedy Central since 9/11. This show is normally a satire with an ironic, edgy style. Apparently, Stewart's apartment gave him a direct view of the WTC. He noted that now that the WTC was gone, he could see the Statue of Liberty. At the end, instead of the usual absurd moment of Zen, he reached down, and pulled out -- a puppy!

Quite a few TV shows were delayed (Emmys) or scrapped (Latin Grammys).

About 45 movies have been postponed to avoid offending audiences.

Video rentals up 30%, according to the Video Software Dealers Association. People are staying home together.

Evidence we are still in a 3T
A conversation from Tuesday, 2 weeks after the attacks.

LW Stylle: hey, what time is it over there?
Surreal79: 2 pm
LW Stylle: wow, it's 8am here
LW Stylle: that's cool
Surreal79: we are in the same day
LW Stylle: of course
Surreal79: did you take my advice
LW Stylle: to get laid?
Surreal79: its more than laid
LW Stylle: tell me again
Surreal79: el guapo
Surreal79: when you want food you take the food
Surreal79: when you want tequila you take the tequila
LW Stylle: si
Surreal79: when you want a woman
Surreal79: just take her
LW Stylle: you take the woman
LW Stylle: is that how you live your life, el justin?
Surreal79: not before but now i will, and if she says no...NEXT!
LW Stylle: just move on down the line
LW Stylle: I don't think that getting laid will solve this, I think I need a new girlfriend
Surreal79: exactly...watcha gonna do get another girl to break your heart
LW Stylle: man cannot live by fuck alone
Surreal79: you are older than i obiwan
LW Stylle: by exactly a year
LW Stylle: which is fast approaching
Surreal79: uh oh
Surreal79: the big 22
LW Stylle: the other day, the cashier in the supermarket guessed my age to be 34!
Surreal79: guess what
LW Stylle: chicken butt
Surreal79: if we make it to 2003 and 2004 without getting drafted, were home free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LW Stylle: sweet
Surreal79: what do you think about this war shit
LW Stylle: i think it's bullshit
Surreal79: bushit
Surreal79: big talk
LW Stylle: W thinks the american people want justice, he thinks we need to kill 5000 arabs to make up for it
Surreal79: i just want safety
LW Stylle: I think we all do at this point
Surreal79: are you still having fun
LW Stylle: having fun doing what?
Surreal79: being alive
LW Stylle: I could have more fun
Surreal79: you should do it
Surreal79: take advantage of the time you have left
Surreal79: Since the founding of our nation
LW Stylle: well, if everything works out I'll be kicking it with the brits next year
Surreal79: we have confronted
Surreal79: crisis every 70/80 years
Surreal79: and its going to come soon
Surreal79: its been 72 years since the start of the great depression
LW Stylle: you know there was a tornado here last night
Surreal79: wow
LW Stylle: it touched down in MD, tore the shit out of the new performing arts building on the U of M campus
LW Stylle: all of the schools in PGC are closed, one of them lost a roof
LW Stylle: and I forgot my lunch today
Surreal79: thats amazingly sucky
LW Stylle: i can buy lunch, I have granola bars in my desk
Surreal79: still hope
LW Stylle: keep hope alive
LW Stylle: you know what, if a crisis hits, that means that we'll be sailing smooth for the rest of our lives, and if we ride it out, we'll be way tougher than our parents ever were
Surreal79: cool
LW Stylle: what do think it will be?
Surreal79: crisis?
LW Stylle: yeah
Surreal79: well, its gotta be something that makes us come to grips with all our interior problems
Surreal79: we have 2 million people in prison
Surreal79: we have an energy crisis in the future
LW Stylle: i'm hoping for the failure of television
Surreal79: that may happen...
LW Stylle: telivision is the most efficient way of spreading stupidity
Surreal79: well there was 1776, then there was 1860, then there was 1929, so in 2005 or so...
LW Stylle: what about 1938
LW Stylle: 1942
Surreal79: that was the begining
LW Stylle: 1980-92 the reagen bush years
Surreal79: crisis last more than a year
Surreal79: they usually last nearly two decades
Surreal79: each generation is primed for the crisis
Surreal79: are you primed baby
Surreal79: im sorry ive had like 8 cups of coffee
LW Stylle: ours is not as materialsitic as they were in the 1920
LW Stylle: and it's not that we're immoral
LW Stylle: just blase
Surreal79: X?
LW Stylle: we're the tail end of it
Surreal79: were kind of burned out
LW Stylle: hee hee I'm watching a moby video on my computor
Surreal79: like...too burned out to be that wild
LW Stylle: too cool for school
Surreal79: yup
LW Stylle: but school is life and parents and religion
Surreal79: but that means that were ready to deal with bad things
LW Stylle: we've very self-centered and autonomous
Surreal79: true true
LW Stylle: we're a nation of islands
Surreal79: americans, or people our age
LW Stylle: you speak truth, italian
Surreal79: answer the question jamez
Surreal79: ok ok
LW Stylle: americans our age
LW Stylle: I don't know much about other people
LW Stylle: I do feel that we have some moral advantage over our parents
LW Stylle: maybe not
LW Stylle: I don't know
Surreal79: define for me if you will these generations of people
Surreal79: like what ages
LW Stylle: 1975-1980
LW Stylle: no wait,
LW Stylle: 1970-1980
LW Stylle: maybe even back to 65
Surreal79: just asking
LW Stylle: okay I can tell you exactly what is wrong with our society
LW Stylle: "Survivor"
LW Stylle: it's like modern day gladiator matches
Surreal79: i agree
LW Stylle: we have people starving on the streets, not just in 3rd world countries, but in our own nation's capital city, and we, for sport, for the sheer entertainment value, choose to watch people starve and struggle on television
LW Stylle: all the while gosssiping, fucking, and squabbling for petty trappings
Surreal79: whats wrong with fucking?
LW Stylle: it has become meaningless
Surreal79: oh are you religious
LW Stylle: actually, yes
LW Stylle: not unreasonably so
Surreal79: ok
LW Stylle: and if a hot girl wanted to go to bed with me, I wouldn't say no
LW Stylle: in fact, I would pursue it
Surreal79: ok ok...just making sure youre of sound mental health
Surreal79: so you dont think americas in pull together crisis mode yet? were still in self obsessed survivor mode?
LW Stylle: i guess that makes me either a hypocrite or an idiot
Surreal79: nah
LW Stylle: rome fell because it became too violent internally
LW Stylle: if I were drafted, I wouldn't go to canada
Surreal79: sweden
LW Stylle: my mom wants me to call myself a passiver objector, I don't think it's that easy
LW Stylle: i may not agree with the war, but if America needs me to feel save and avoid losing another 5000 lives, then how can I say no?
LW Stylle: although I could never kill another person
LW Stylle: it's a tough call
LW Stylle: I wish I were a doctor, like on M*A*S*H
Surreal79: yeah
Surreal79: maybe ill just get married and stay here
LW Stylle: maybe I would get married to stay out of the war
Surreal79: i dont think a war effort will be fruitful
LW Stylle: mike
LW Stylle: s lucky, he's gay
LW Stylle: being gay must be cool
LW Stylle: if I were gay, I'd spend the whole day in the gym locker room
Surreal79: hahahaha
Surreal79: are you sure?
Surreal79: the other night i watched these people strip at a party
LW Stylle: whoah
LW Stylle: sweet
Surreal79: im pretty secure in my hetrosexuality
LW Stylle: were they girls or guys?
Surreal79: both
LW Stylle: that's funny

Thats all folks

Absolute Proof that we are in a _T at

Colors of Patriotism in the 24 September 2001 number of the St. Petersburg Times by Mr. Mike Brassfield.


The Houston Chronicle reports that divorces are being slowed down and even stopped in process. Salon reports that "Terror" sex is the best sex in years. These two may be related. HTH

An hermaphroditic Moose has been slain in the Yukon as of late. What that augurs for the War on Terror, much less the 4th Turning, greater seers must explain. HTH

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Virgil K. Saari on 2001-09-25 08:01 ]</font>

That's a 4T thing for sure, Mr. Saari.

Why would you even question that?

Quote:
"The deadly twisters, unusual here, appeared to be the most destructive such storms to hit the region in about 75 years and caused damage across an area that stretched for more than 70 miles."

See the story:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Sep24.html


The "most destructive such storms to hit the region in about 75 years..." eh. Does that make this a 3T, or a 4T storm?

On 2001-09-25 07:41, Marc Lamb wrote:
Quote:
"The deadly twisters, unusual here, appeared to be the most destructive such storms to hit the region in about 75 years and caused damage across an area that stretched for more than 70 miles."

See the story:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Sep24.html


The "most destructive such storms to hit the region in about 75 years..." eh. Does that make this a 3T, or a 4T storm?

It means weather happens. As an aside, yesterday evening I was settling down in my seat for choir practice in my synagogue and I overheard in the row ahead of me "It hit College Park. There were two fatalities". I immediately freaked and said "What is 'it'?" When they said a tornedo, I blurted out "Thank God!". Everyone laughed nervously; they understood my reaction.

I think the fact that Gary Condit was appointed to that committee (apparently for the mundane reason that he had past experience with the issue) and the fact that it was not splashed all over the front page is actually evidence that we are no longer in 3T.

How's THIS for proof that we are in 4T?

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/front/1060599

<font color="blue">
Sept. 25, 2001, 3:44AM

Couples want peace at home
Divorce case dismissals soar here since Sept. 11
By MARY FLOOD
Copyright 2001 Houston Chronicle

Some Houstonians want to make love, not war.

Dismissals in divorce cases have skyrocketed in the Harris County Family Law courts since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11. Family-law attorneys have found that clients contemplating divorce, as well as those in the middle of one, now say they will try to patch things up.

Family-law cases, the vast majority of which are divorces, have been dismissed in nearly three times the volume in the days after the tragedy as in the days before it. In the 10 working days since Sept. 11, about 400 family-law suits have been dismissed. In the five working days before airplanes struck the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, about 75 lawsuits were dismissed.

It's a small sample but one supported by anecdotal evidence from lawyers with clients who suddenly want to stop even contentious divorces.

State District Judge Linda Motheral, who hears family-law cases, said the trend seems likely a product of the "general sense everywhere that people realize this could be it, our lives may have changed forever and the things we worried about before look like small potatoes."

"It could be a coincidence, but it would be one big coincidence," said Motheral. In her court alone, 54 cases were dismissed in the 10 days the court has been open since Sept. 11. In the five working days at the beginning of the month, 13 cases were dismissals.

Annette Henry, a lawyer who handles family-law cases, said right after the explosions she had telephone calls from two clients, both who had preliminary consultations. Both canceled their appointments for Sept. 11.

"I just thought they would reschedule. But in both cases, they said they were going to try to reconcile instead," Henry said. "One woman said she had children and with all that had happened she just couldn't do it, she wanted to keep them all together."

Henry said that when someone files for divorce, their problems seem huge and insurmountable.

"But with a tragedy like this, it puts it all in perspective. Whatever was driving you crazy no longer seems so significant," she said.

Michael Von Blon, an attorney who specializes in family-law cases, said two clients stopped their divorce proceedings last week. One couple asked that the case be dismissed. The other wanted the case halted; they want to try to get back together.

Though Von Blon said he and most divorce attorneys ask clients whether they can somehow reconcile, a halt to the proceedings in midstream is unusual.

"I've probably had 10 reconciliations like this in 20 years of practice. Two in one week is unusual," said Von Blon, who suspects the Sept. 11 tragedy is the catalyst.

"People stop and think about the most basic things in life -- companionship, love and family," Von Blon said.

David Wells, associate minister of counseling services at Houston's First Baptist Church, is pleased but not surprised by the trend. Wells has a client who said the tragedy made her husband finally take working on the marriage seriously. He also said he has seen an increase in people wanting emergency help with their relationship problems.

"People seem to be wanting to get their life in order," Wells said.

It's not all wine and roses at the courthouse, though. Plenty of new lawsuits have been filed in the days since the attacks. And plenty of divorce lawyers haven't seen any reconciling clients.

Family-law attorney Ellen Elkins Grimes hoped the national tragedy would cause some clients to leave differences behind.

"Unfortunately, I haven't seen that. There are still people calling, upset with each other," Grimes said. "Maybe when people hear about the others trying this, they'll find hope." </font>

And here is even more proof:

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...924sep24.story

<font color="blue">
Poll: Third of New Yorkers support internment camps for some
By MARC HUMBERT
Associated Press Writer

September 24, 2001

ALBANY, N.Y. -- One third of New Yorkers favor establishing internment camps for "individuals who authorities identify as being sympathetic to terrorist causes," according to a poll from the Siena College Research Institute.

Fifty percent of those surveyed for the statewide poll said they were opposed to that idea while 15 percent had no opinion.

The telephone poll of 610 New York state residents over age 18 was conducted from Sept. 12, the day after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon, through Sept. 19. The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points.

The poll found 75 percent of respondents felt terrorist attacks would continue and 40 percent said they were very concerned they or family members could become victims.

Forty-six percent said the attacks make it less likely they will use commercial flights even though two-thirds of those surveyed said they believe the airlines can be made safe from terrorism. Ninety percent said undercover, armed security guards should be put on the planes.

Internment camps have been controversial since World War II when the United States ordered thousands of Japanese-Americans into such facilities.

Douglas Lonnstrom, director of the research institute, said that given that World War II experience he found it "startling" that 34 percent of those polled supported the creation of new internment camps.

Lonnstrom said he didn't know if those questioned equated the phrase "sympathetic to terrorist causes" to Arab-Americans.

But James Zogby, president of the Washington-based Arab American Institute, said, "You have to be very careful how you go down this road of defining sympathies. I think it's dangerous."

Zogby said creation of such camps would be unconstitutional, but that he wasn't surprised by the poll's findings.

"In the current context, when you ask that question you're going to get that kind of response," Zogby said. "I would say if you asked people, `Should terrorist sympathizers have their toenails forcibly plucked from their toes?', you would probably get something akin to that."


Copyright ? 2001, The Associated Press </font>