See

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...0412-2001Sep28

for dramatic statistical evidence that we ARE in a 4T.

David, thanks for your insightful post. The child with the helmet (in my post to which you refer) was at least *two* years old. This is an important point because, if what you are saying is true, the last Millenial birthyear is 1998. My kid is eleven months old, which is the reason for your confusion.

Ms. angeli questions Mr. Lamb, "Oh? And who is going to come beat you up on the El because you might look Arab? Nobody, of course. So its easy for you to laugh."





How long do you care to carry on this tirade, Ms. angeli?

I saw nearly seven thousand folks die at the hands of terrorists. And this does not even include the many more that were injured or maimed. Included among those thousands of dead and wounded were citizens of sixty-two different countries. Furthermore, of those many thousands of casulties, Ms. angeli, there were no doubt a few "white" men of European descent, just like me. And some of these "white" guys were, no doubt, members of New York's "finest" that died trying to save the lives of folks from all over the globe.

As of today, I have yet to have even heard of one "Arab" looking person being injured as a result.

In a previous post, Ms. angeli, you stated that you didn't "say" I was a "racist." I never thought you did. I wouldn't care even if you did say it, think it, or write it.

Because the simple fact of the matter is you, Ms. angeli, are a racist. And your demand that I not laugh, that I not sing, that I keep my mouth shut in the face of my advesary because of some racial overtones might offend some certain groups of people, while calling me "white man," is proof of your sickening racial attitude.

And you have the gall to exclude me, and no doubt my kind, from the clear and present danger. You are amazing, Ms. angeli.

I will not stop laughing, Ms. angeli. I will continue to laugh all I want to at whatever I want to, Ms. angeli.







<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2001-09-28 17:41 ]</font>

I think we are probably in a 4T nationally, but many local areas are still 3T. I could be wrong, and in fact I think that it isn't quite settled even yet. But I'm betting we'll slip all the way over to 4T.

On the other hand, we may be expecting a bit too much of the 4T. Looking back at the last one, all dissent and criticism did not stop. It became far more polite, more cautious, and more cooperative, but even at the height of WWII Roosevelt did not have everything his own way.

As for evidence of a 4T, make of this what you will:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...172405_001.htm

I think the 3T/4T test will be the reaction of others to this sort of thing. Not too long ago, this would be enough to make NOW declare it's own jihad (no offense intended) against Mrs. O'Conner. What will NOW do now?

He might do better than you think. He might only have to change his tune a bit. Check out the act of Father Charles Coughlin from the last 4T. It's not a bad parallel, except that Coughlin was more serious and more fascistic.

I know less about Father Coughlin than I ought, but wasn't he known for _opposing_ efforts at rearmament and preparing for trouble Germany?

On 2001-09-28 17:33, Marc Lamb wrote:
Because the simple fact of the matter is you, Ms. angeli, are a racist. And your demand that I not laugh, that I not sing, that I keep my mouth shut in the face of my advesary because of some racial overtones might offend some certain groups of people, while calling me "white man," is proof of your sickening racial attitude.

And you have the gall to exclude me, and no doubt my kind, from the clear and present danger. You are amazing, Ms. angeli.

I will not stop laughing, Ms. angeli. I will continue to laugh all I want to at whatever I want to, Ms. angeli.

I've wanted to inject myself in this little tiff, but I've resisted until now. Though I feel obligated to caution Mr. Lamb from becoming overheated, I was also somewhat put off by Ms. angeli's "white man" remark.

Ms. angeli, in respect to your sensibilities I won't say that the site in question is "funny". But I'm not afraid to say that, like Mr. Lamb, I laughed my fool head off when I read it.

I don't consider the two concepts to be in contradiction. Sometimes, when a person is so blatantly willing to make an ass of himself that he spews ignorance and hypocricy in every sentence, the results are nothing short of hilarious. It's sad that such people must exist in the world - but I'm not about to curl into a ball and hide in the corner in fear, or wallow in self-pity over the apparent degradation of civilized society. I offer instead what these monsters hate most of all: I laugh in their face with derision.

The fact that Mr. Lamb didn't agree with the sentiments posted on the site, and instead found them to be characatures so grossly out of proportion with acceptable behavoir the he had to laugh should say something about his own viewpoints on the subject.

I can't help but wonder, Ms. angeli, if you never found All In The Family funny....

So are we 3T... Or have we moved into the "new paradigm"? The "new paradigm," that wonderous, mysterious moment when the night, according to the movement of the earth around the sun, becomes shorter in duration... hence life, begins to get better in duration.

Ah, if we could only know for sure... a very subjective thing; THE TURNINGS OF THE HUMAN HEART. Unlike the movement of the sun, the moon, the stars, and the earth whose movements are so predictable.

Even so, let us, as Mr. Kaiser, "agree with Jenny, by the way, the Condit's appontment is hardly a sign of a 3T."

Signs. We look for a "sign," a billboard that will tell us, "This IS it." Condit? Yes, 3T all the way. Sex, sleaze, maybe even murder. Great stuff to fill the talk shows. Ah, we love it in a "3T." We even excuse it in a "3T." It's expected in a "3T." It's a "sign" that we are 3T. Cool.

The psalmist wrote, "I am the God of all generations." Well then, a 3T generation must be like, act out, revel in a 3T. God is with you, 3Ters, go forth and multiply.

St. Paul wrote, "Some mens sins are judged in this life, for others, their sins follow them after..."

Ah yes, the Hero and the Prophet.

And so, Mr. Kaiser chastens one of his own, "Sorry, Bill, but your desire to hang various parts of Condit and Clinton's anatomy out in public was rather 3T on your part. ."

It is interesting how Mr. Kaiser excuses, nay champions such "3T" behavior when perpetuated in what he believed was a "3T." It is expected. But now he believes we are "4T." Therefore, it is now time to put away such "3T" nonsense.

It is enough to say, with St. Paul, their sins will follow them into...

Signs
The 5 Man Electrical Band


And the sign said "Long-haired freaky people need not apply"
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said "You look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do"
So I took off my hat, I said "Imagine that. Huh! Me workin' for you!"
Whoa-oh-oh

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

And the sign said anybody caught trespassin' would be shot on sight
So I jumped on the fence and-a yelled at the house,
"Hey! What gives you the right?"
"To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in"
"If God was here he'd tell you to your face, Man, you're some kinda sinner"

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

Now, hey you, mister, can't you read?
You've got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't even watch, no you can't eat
You ain't supposed to be here
The sign said you got to have a membership card to get inside
Ugh!

------ lead guitar ------

And the sign said, "Everybody welcome. Come in, kneel down and pray"
But when they passed around the plate at the end of it all,
I didn't have a penny to pay
So I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own little sign
I said, "Thank you, Lord, for thinkin' 'bout me.
I'm alive and doin' fine."
Wooo!

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lyrics provided for academic research purposes only.
Commercial use is prohibited.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been collecting evidence from the local media and local events about whether or not we're in a Fourth Turning. When I set down this morning's paper with the realization that the entire thing was pure Fourth Turning stuff - including the FoxTrot cartoon where Jason tells his dad he's proud of dad for giving blood - the question was answered for me once and for all.

Of course, I think it was answered for me when I felt it right and proper, even urgent,
to buy and wear a flag pin, which is the last thing I ever imagined myself doing. Not since V-J Day, which I only remember because all the adults were in the streets celebrating and us little kids got to stay up till *9 o'clock at night*!!!! And Dad was home, which is another story.

The recently sober Mr. Ben Affleck (sp?) was caught speeding in some state in some sort of automobile to the astonishment of the many. 3T or was he heading for the Front?

God help the front.

I'm new to your discussion, and only returned to the Forum after some years absence, recent events having prompted my rereading of Strauss and Howe. I wondered if anyone thinks the catalyst to an early fourth, if indeed the FT has begun, could have been the election debacle that so shook the confidence in constitutional law for members of both political parties. The road to resolution of November's election drama was clearly spelled out in the Federalist Papers, and just as clearly overridden by the actions of five members of the Supreme Court, who never addressed the concerns of constitional scholars and those citizens who were aware of the gravity of the Supreme Court decision. Just a thought.

Last night (9/28) on MSNBC, Al Franken was discussing what is and what's not going to be considered funny over the next few months. Although he was addressing the issue of topical humor, during the past six years comedy has been particularly marked by both its outrageousness and its sophomoric content, not its "targets," if indeed there were any.

This is not to say there has been no satire in America, but I would venture to say there is more Howard Stern in Don Imus than there is Don Imus in Howard Stern. Because Imus is so closely allied with political and media figures, he will take his cue from them. Their perspective on events will be colored by the fact that they will be almost exclusively at "Ground Zero" and on Capitol Hill.

Therefore, the key show (and hence the comic content) to watch over the next few months is Stern's, not Imus'. If <u>he</u> tones it down, then we are mored likely in a 4T. I know he is also based in NYC, but his audience is not known for its sensitivity or political acumen. If the seriousness of America's tone remains so profound in, say, November (or January at the latest), that Stern's ratings are down that would be more telling than what has happened to Bill Maher.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kevin1952 on 2001-09-29 09:58 ]</font>

Barbara, you know times have changed when grandmothers quote rock lyrics.

On 2001-09-29 09:24, Pstymie wrote:
I'm new to your discussion, and only returned to the Forum after some years absence, recent events having prompted my rereading of Strauss and Howe. I wondered if anyone thinks the catalyst to an early fourth, if indeed the FT has begun, could have been the election debacle that so shook the confidence in constitutional law for members of both political parties. The road to resolution of November's election drama was clearly spelled out in the Federalist Papers, and just as clearly overridden by the actions of five members of the Supreme Court, who never addressed the concerns of constitional scholars and those citizens who were aware of the gravity of the Supreme Court decision. Just a thought.

Pstymie, there was a huge discussion on what we called "E2K" -- the 2000 Election. There was a lot of discussion about whether the E2K debacle was triggering 4T. Go in the archives and read up on it. Over the course of the month, there were hundreds of posts.

In retrospect, I think of E2K as 3T's swan song.

From the October 1 issue of the New Republic, page 9 (editorial), for educational purposes only:

"'The problem of the new world,' the writer Jonathan Franzen proclaimed last week, 'will be to reassert the ordinary, the trivial, and even the ridiculous in the fact of instability and dread: to mourn the dead and then try to awaken to our small humanities and our pleasurable daily nothing-much.'

This is the voice of the American who does not wish to live in history. To be sure, history is a terrible inconvenience. But we have been disturbed by it. Shall we pretend that we have not been disturbed?"

In retrospect, I think of E2K as 3T's swan song.-- Ms. Jenny Genser

And likewise, 911 way well be retrospectively thought of 3T's "swan song."

But who knows now? Who wishes it might become so now? Who wishes that it might not become so now?





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2001-09-29 11:20 ]</font>

Who cares what people wish? Nobody is going to know for sure what the swansong of the 3T was/is until we get some perspective on things. I may wish that the Universe rid the planet of infant and baby souls, but that's not gonna happen for a while!

Remember...early Winter can seem alot like Autumn.

I've also been gone for a while, and while I really like the updates on the website...what happened to all the traffic? Ther was more traffic when Elian was the news of the day. What happened to Lis, Eric M., Rich T., Paul B., and the rest of the regulars that posted here regularly from '97-'00? It's good to see Virgil and angeli still posting though.

By the way everyone...I think angeli has had maybe alittle different experience on the planet than maybe someone from Frankfort, Ohio.....possibly? Where the hell is that anyway?.....Bet it's pretty white.
No offense Marc, but like I said, angeli has probably seen life from quite a different perspective than yours.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BoomXer on 2001-09-29 13:21 ]</font>

On 2001-09-29 10:11, Brian Rush wrote:
Barbara, you know times have changed when grandmothers quote rock lyrics.

Brian,

:smile:
I suspect I'm not your ordinary grandmother.
:smile:

P.S.
1. Those were 2T rock lyrics, if anyone doesn't know.

2. Pre-911, I did have nu-metal lyrics by Puddle of Mudd in my signature for awhile....

BoomXer opines, "...I think angeli has had maybe alittle different experience on the planet than maybe someone from Frankfort, Ohio.....possibly? Where the hell is that anyway?.....Bet it's pretty white.
No offense Marc, but like I said, angeli has probably seen life from quite a different perspective than yours."

"Bet it's pretty white," eh? I take no offense whatsoever, BoomXer, from such an obvious racist-bigot such as yourself. :smile:

Barbara:

I suspect I'm not your ordinary grandmother.

Well, as I said before, you're quite a bit like my kids' grandmother.


What's interesting to me is that you'd seldom have seen GI elders doing something like that.

Those were 2T rock lyrics, if anyone doesn't know.

Yes, from a fairly popular Christian rock band of the 1970s.

Gee Marc, you are sorta touchy......I apologize if I offended you. Ummmm....I was just trying to point out that angeli (if anyone knows anything about her at all) has a different exprience on the planet than someone from a small, totally white town of just over a thousand people in southern Ohio......just the facts sir.

By the way....I'm a 42-year-old white male who lives who lives in a upper middle-class nieghborhood of your capital city.......just 45 minutes from you Marc! How in the world could you construe what I said as racist?

P.S. I grew up in a small, totally white town of around two thousand in northern Ohio....was raised an evangelical christian and in my young adulthood subscribed to every
radical christian notion you can think of.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BoomXer on 2001-09-29 14:46 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BoomXer on 2001-09-29 15:01 ]</font>

On 2001-09-29 13:19, BoomXer wrote:
I may wish that the Universe rid the planet of infant and baby souls, but that's not gonna happen for a while!

Huh?

Remember...early Winter can seem alot like Autumn.

True.

What happened to Lis, Eric M., Rich T., Paul B., and the rest of the regulars that posted here regularly from '97-'00? It's good to see Virgil and angeli still posting though.

Lis, Eric, and Rich (as richT) still post here, though perhaps less frequently than they used to. Paul Beavers hasn't posted in quite some time; I don't know what happened to him. FWIW, I was one of the "regulars" who posted in early 2000 and I'm still here. So are a number of the others, though some, like Robert Reed, go under different handles now. I don't remember you. Did you have another name?

By the way everyone...I think angeli has had maybe alittle different experience on the planet than maybe someone from Frankfort, Ohio.....possibly? Where the hell is that anyway?.....Bet it's pretty white.
No offense Marc, but like I said, angeli has probably seen life from quite a different perspective than yours.

So are you saying, that just because angeli is nonwhite, that she must have grown up in the ghetto?

BoomXer writes, " ."


You might want to check your Private Messages, BoomXer. In there you will find a little note I sent welcoming you to the 4T the day you joined. Additionally, I noted where I went to high school in Columbus as well. I happen to be somewhat new to this "small, totally white town of just over a thousand people in southern Ohio" as you describe it. And while you seem to have such command of "just the facts sir," wherein I live, to correct the record, is anything but "totally white." Not that it means anything relevent at all.

But, come to think of it, perhaps you already did read your Private Messages. Which in that case, qualifies you as a baiter and a "spammer."

In either case, I don't care if you're a little green thing from Mars, you're still a racist-bigot. :smile:

The "little green thing" from my hometown, belately edits it's post :wink: and claims, "P.S. I grew up in a small, totally white town of around two thousand in northern Ohio....was raised an evangelical christian and in my young adulthood subscribed to every
radical christian notion you can think of."




Now I know the later is the case. The one that goes by the words "BoomXer" is a baiter and a spammer. It is duly noted here.

Marc, The fact that you are white and the small town you live in is 99% white goes to the heart of your tiff with angeli.

No, I didn't read any private messages - I didn't even know about them until you told me..thanx

Frankfort, OH is 99% white, very rural and has many of the attitudes you would associate with such a town. Growing up on the north side of Columbus would expose you to a wider range of people and experiences, but I still feel angeli with her travels and work has senstized her in a way that you don't and can't understand...Hence her objection to your attitude. It has nothing to do with my perception of who she is , but with what she has experienced.

I'm anything but racist or bigoted. Opinionated and condescending? probably. Again, I apologize.


Susan Huh?.......It's a long story, It has to do with a belief system. I'll explain it sometime if you like.

I do remember you, It's just that the others came to mind at the time I was writing.

Yes, I have for the most part gone by BoomXer in the past.

I didn't know angeli was non-white....Is she? It never crossed my mind. If you have ever read her posts over the years you know that she is well travelled and her work has sent her to various places on the planet. She has expeerienced things that most Americans such myself and Mr. Lamb have not, so she may have a different perspective than people who travel out of the country for pleasure. She also may be sensitized to certain attitudes more so than others. That's the only point I was trying to make.


Marc, I'm not a baiter or a spammer....just a smart ass. Also I edited my post for a misspelling and to give you a little more information on myself....I thought that you may have thought that I was a racist of a "different ethnic background" other than yourself.

Also, I go into great detail regarding my upbringing and backgrounnd in the archived threads....ask Virgil

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BoomXer on 2001-09-29 18:52 ]</font>