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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 11







Post#251 at 10-08-2001 12:11 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-08-2001, 12:11 PM #251
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Mr. Rush writes, "Uh, Marc, did you miss the word "euphoria" in that second quote from David Kaiser? Those two statements were not contradictory. Both of them were saying the 4T has begun; the second one was saying he isn't happy about it. "


I could care less if you, Mr. K, or anyone else thinks it's 3T, 4T, or fill-the-blank "T".

That a man like Clinton, or Condit, hangs out his dirty laundry in public with an associated 3T arrogance and in-your-face flaunt is enough for anyone with a sense of deceny to have to swallow no matter what "T" it is.

But then to listen to his/their defenders demand--just because he/she think we're now in a fourth turn--that we, who are offended with such degrading behaviour, are somehow now guilty like Mr. Strauss for their "desire to hang various parts of Condit and Clinton's anatomy out in public" for the sake of suggestive evidence contrary to prevailing wisdom.

There is no doubt in my mind, that soon, right here at this very website, it will be "infamous to doubt" we are 4T. And those, like Mr. K, will ratchet-up their shameless shaming tactics on those who hold an opposing view.

NUTS!







Post#252 at 10-08-2001 12:17 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-08-2001, 12:17 PM #252
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y
On 2001-10-07 21:44, Marc Lamb wrote:
Forgive me, folks, but I am not going to let this guy get a pass here. Read the following quotes, verbatim, posted at this very thread:


KaiserD2
Joined: Jul 22, 2001
Posts: 35
From: David Kaiser '47
Posted: 2001-09-28 14:26
"I could change my mind later but I think the evidence is overwhelming that this is it. I agree with Jenny, by the way, the Condit's appontment is hardly a sign of a 3T. Sorry, Bill, but your desire to hang various parts of Condit and Clinton's anatomy out in public was rather 3T on your part. ."

KaiserD2
Joined: Jul 22, 2001
Posts: 35
From: David Kaiser '47
Posted: 2001-10-07 17:51
"I have been very impressed by Brian lately, but I have to say, Boomer to Boomer, that I do NOT share the "this is it" euphoria AT ALL."

Again, let me pull the quotes out so that they are clear:

From: David Kaiser '47
Posted: 2001-09-28 14:26
"I think the evidence is overwhelming that this is it."

From: David Kaiser '47
Posted: 2001-10-07 17:51
"that I do NOT share the "this is it" euphoria AT ALL."





From Marc Lamb to David Kaiser '47:


Give it up, pal. :evil:
Marc, David K. could be like me andbelieve that 4T is here but hardly feel euphoric about it. I mean, lots of people die in a 4T.







Post#253 at 10-08-2001 12:53 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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10-08-2001, 12:53 PM #253
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Marc:


That a man like Clinton, or Condit, hangs out his dirty laundry in public with an associated 3T arrogance and in-your-face flaunt is enough for anyone with a sense of deceny to have to swallow no matter what "T" it is.

As I recall, it wasn't Clinton who hung his dirty laundry out in public. It was the Republicans who hung his dirty laundry out in public. All he did was get it dirty in the first place, in private.


But, with that observation in place, I agree that the hanging of it in public was offensive to anyone with a sense of decency, and his political opponents and critics shouldn't have done that.


But then to listen to his/their defenders demand--just because he/she think we're now in a fourth turn--that we, who are offended with such degrading behaviour, are somehow now guilty like Mr. Strauss for their "desire to hang various parts of Condit and Clinton's anatomy out in public"

Oh, no, it was just as wrong to do that back in the Unraveling. It hasn't suddenly become wrong now that we're in a Crisis.


Marc, I know how near and dear to your heart is outrage over the shift in America's consensus sexual morality over the course of this saeculum, and the evidence thereof provided by hanky-panky in the White House or Congress or Britney Spears' tacky and skimpy outfit. But nonetheless, the rest of us have some things to be concerned about that, to our no-doubt narrow minds, seem more important -- like whether terrorists are going to blow up our office buildings today.


It's all a matter of perspective.







Post#254 at 10-08-2001 01:39 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-08-2001, 01:39 PM #254
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Chilling timing for an unseen enemy to make its way back into the news?

<HTML><FONT FACE="bookman"><H><FONT SIZE="+1"><center>Bodies to be dug up in war on killer flu</FONT></H></center>
</HTML>
Quote:

"John Oxford, the Government's flu adviser, is convinced a highly contagious and deadly strain of the influenza A virus will strike within a decade."

In the Is the Fourthturning Coming thread Marc Lamb Posted: 2001-09-12 08:39

<HTML><FONT FACE="bookman"><H><FONT SIZE="+1"><center>The Great Influenza Epidemic of 1919</FONT></H></center>
</HTML>
Most folks don't know of the many great catastrophies occured in the previous third turning world between 1908 and 1929. One such devastating event occured just as "the war to end all wars" was ending. It came out of nowhere, an unseen enemy that struck with such ferocity as to completely shut down entire cities for days, weeks and months.

Recently, PBS did a documentary on this story which was quickly forgotten once it passed. Here are some pull quotes from that program.

"In New York, 851 people died of the flu in a single day. But the greatest horror came to Philadelphia. In one week in October, the death rate there was seven hundred times higher than normal."

"Over 11,000 people would die in Philadelphia alone that October."

"In 31 shocking days, the flu would kill over 195,000 Americans. It was the deadliest month in this nation's history."

"The epidemic killed, at a very, very conservative estimate, it killed 550,000 Americans in ten months, that's more Americans than died in combat in all the wars of this century, and the epidemic killed at least 30 million in the world and infected the majority of the human species."

And for the Lost generation of that time, here is a real kicker:

"In Washington, Victor Vaughan was working late, trying to make sense of the hellish chaos. He uncovered an unnerving fact. Usually, influenza kills only the weak -- the very young and very old -- but this time it had a different target. People in the very prime of life -- from 21 to 29 -- were the most vulnerable of all."

I recall reading in T4T (or in Generations?) that S&H believed a shocking moment would occur for the current Xer generation PRIOR to the fourth turn.

Could this very moment be the moment they were refering to?

To learn more about this devestating unseen enemy.







Post#255 at 10-08-2001 02:43 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-08-2001, 02:43 PM #255
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On 2001-10-08 10:11, Marc Lamb wrote:
Mr. Rush writes, "Uh, Marc, did you miss the word "euphoria" in that second quote from David Kaiser? Those two statements were not contradictory. Both of them were saying the 4T has begun; the second one was saying he isn't happy about it. "


I could care less if you, Mr. K, or anyone else thinks it's 3T, 4T, or fill-the-blank "T".

That a man like Clinton, or Condit, hangs out his dirty laundry in public with an associated 3T arrogance and in-your-face flaunt is enough for anyone with a sense of deceny to have to swallow no matter what "T" it is.

But then to listen to his/their defenders demand--just because he/she think we're now in a fourth turn--that we, who are offended with such degrading behaviour, are somehow now guilty like Mr. Strauss for their "desire to hang various parts of Condit and Clinton's anatomy out in public" for the sake of suggestive evidence contrary to prevailing wisdom.

There is no doubt in my mind, that soon, right here at this very website, it will be "infamous to doubt" we are 4T. And those, like Mr. K, will ratchet-up their shameless shaming tactics on those who hold an opposing view.

NUTS!
Marc, just for the record, I am NOT a defender of Gary Condit. He is scum and I hope he loses bad in 2002, if he doesn't resign before then.

However, in my earlier comment, all I meant to say was that his being included in the new homeland security committee was IMHO, not evidence of a 3T.







Post#256 at 10-08-2001 03:06 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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On 2001-10-08 11:39, Marc Lamb wrote:
(Snip story on Great Flu Epidemic of 1918)

I recall reading in T4T (or in Generations?) that S&H believed a shocking moment would occur for the current Xer generation PRIOR to the fourth turn.

Could this very moment be the moment they were refering to?

I was re-reading Barbara Ehrenreich's BLOOD RITES and came upon her description of the enthusiasm and near-religious outburst of patriotism at the beginning of World War I. We may not be at the 4T after all; we may be around 1914-18-20.

To learn more about this devestating unseen enemy.







Post#257 at 10-08-2001 03:34 PM by Auguste [at joined Oct 2001 #posts 2]
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All,

I do believe we haven't even begun to see the fallout concerning questions regarding god, faith and religious ideologies. I'm starting to hear more in the news stories about people in the US reluctantly conceding that they are beginning to wonder where "their god" was during these attacks on the East coast as the reports tell of the Islamic extremists claim that their "god" was "victorious" in the attacks. Is a viscious battle of religious ideologies part of the Unraveling or the Crisis ?

FrankyS
With man, most of his misfortunes are occasioned by man.
--- Pliny the Elder. A.D. c.23-79 A.D.
Natural History. Book vii. Sect. 5.







Post#258 at 10-08-2001 03:38 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-08-2001, 03:38 PM #258
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Pat Matthews writes, "I was re-reading Barbara Ehrenreich's BLOOD RITES and came upon her description of the enthusiasm and near-religious outburst of patriotism at the beginning of World War I."

While I have not read this book, I have read similar descriptions of this "near-religious outburst" that was evident at that time. And this is very typical of an "inner-driven" era that marks a third turning that cpmes on the heals of an Awakening.

Reading F. Scott Fitzgerald's account of that time in Tender is the Night, 'All my beautiful lovely safe world blew itself up here with a great gust of high-explosive love.'

The "here" today, some eighty years later might very well be New York City.







Post#259 at 10-08-2001 08:23 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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A Vote for 4T by Mr. Robert Fisk in the 9 October 2001 number of the Independent (UK) "Lost in the Rhetorical Fog of War".

Questioning the asking of questions and the thought pattern of <s>sheep</s> er, citizens of the democratic West. Put that mind of yours in neutral for the duration, folks...less wear and tear. HTH

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Virgil K. Saari on 2001-10-08 18:25 ]</font>







Post#260 at 10-08-2001 09:07 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-08-2001, 09:07 PM #260
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A local high school, here in the red zone, put on a musical tribute to the 911 "atrocity" tonight.

And this is what they sang...

"Now they stood beside the treasure,
On the mountain, dark and red.
Turned the stone and looked beneath it...
'Peace on Earth' was all it said."

3T? 4T? You decide.







Post#261 at 10-09-2001 08:26 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-09-2001, 08:26 AM #261
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Official Gen X party statement from Charlie Sheen
Urgent
Malibu, CA
Oct 9, 2001

Dearly Beloved,

We are gathered here today to get through this thing called life. After the attacks on the World Trade Center, Pentagon, and Shanksville, PA on September 11, my cabinet members including Anthony Michael Hall, Robert Downey Jr., the guys from South Park, and Lavar Burton sat down and reconsidered our party platform for the Generation between 20 and 40. We now DO care. And we have issued our own set of decisions on how to deal with the present crisis.

First we would like to name God as the prime suspect in this atrocity. We therefore demand that God be apprehended and brought to justice.

In accordance with our new war on God we demand that the cities of Jerusalem, the Vatican, and Mecca be sacked.

We demand that the nation of Israel be fully disbanded, and its residents relocated to Southeastern Montana, where they will be safe from territorial conflict, except of course from hillbillies, Mark Fuhrman, and Native Americans.

We demand that the United States surrender to the terrorists, whoever they are, and return to a loosely based confederation of 50 independent republics, so that there is no more United States for anyone to target.

We demand that the former US infidels divest completely, in terms of military, diplomatic and humanitarian, and economic efforts from the Middle East, and cease to acknowledge its existence.

We demand a switch to more Earth friendly energy sources.

and we also demand that everyone take part in Operation Infinite Pleasure and make sure you have a good time for our nations sake.

The Gen X Party is the voice of a jaded and alienated population that is sandwiched between the Steven Spielbergs and Britney Spears of the world.
Although our voice will be forever silenced by our reactive nature, desire to drink chocolate milk and watch TV, and lack of giving a shit about Monica Lewinsky or Gary Condit, we believe our deep sense of irony, hands off indolence/ induced pragmatic thinking, and general malaise will be able to guide our nation to a stable footing, without the preachy trimmings of our elders, or collective nature of our juniors.
We are the party for a future that works.
And we believe that having a future that exists is a vision in itself.

Thank you.
Heidi Fleiss Bless Us All.
Charlie Sheen
Party Leader, Gen X Party








Post#262 at 10-09-2001 10:34 AM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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My thanks to Brian and Jenny for trying to point the obvious out to Mr. Lamb. When you're going to blast some one it's always a good idea to make sure you understand what he said.

In exactly 90 minutes I'll be explaining the idea of the Crisis and what this means to a couple of hundred war college students. Wish me luck . ..








Post#263 at 10-09-2001 12:06 PM by cbailey [at B. 1950 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,559]
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Out here in the Wild West many Gen Xers are speeding around in 4-wheel drive pick- ups decorated with American flags, God Bless America, and even paintings of the exploding Trade Towers. Many are racist. American X. They are angry and resentful and this "war" on Terrorism suits their mood. Not exactly 4T. We're still unraveling.







Post#264 at 10-09-2001 12:21 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-09-2001, 12:21 PM #264
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On 2001-10-09 08:10, choselh wrote:
Is it possible to be heading into a 4T but still have a 3T war? Some military TV consultant dude was on TV this morning saying that driving the terrorists into the caves in Afghanistan would immobilize them just as well as killing them. This did not sound very 4T to me. Sounded more like stepping on a rattlesnake ... once you take your foot off you're bound to get bit.

Of course, this guy was not active in the military, and he might have no idea what's really going on.

Also, I'm starting to wonder if "being on alert" will help prevent future attacks. It took the FBI days to start investigating that Anthrax case, and a mental patient broke INTO the cockpit of a plane here in Chicago, despite all the extra security. It took 6 guys to hold down just one intruder ... what if there had been more? Scared the hell out of us here too ... F-16s chasing a commercial airliner across the sky.

Well, under Hoover, didn't we have a 3T response to a 4T economic crisis?

We're probably in transition now, so we're going to be having a mix of 3T and 4T phenomena happening these days.







Post#265 at 10-09-2001 09:33 PM by Opusaug [at Ft. Myers, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 7]
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On 2001-10-09 10:06, cbailey wrote:
Out here in the Wild West many Gen Xers are speeding around in 4-wheel drive pick-ups decorated with American flags, God Bless America, and even paintings of the exploding Trade Towers. Many are racist. American X. They are angry and resentful and this "war" on Terrorism suits their mood. Not exactly 4T. We're still unraveling.
Ummm.... I'm not really sure where "racist" fits into your description - it's almost like a punchline without the rest of the joke. What was it about these people that made you define them so?

That aside, I'm not sure what the rest of your statement has to do with 3T. Someone might make the case that the enthusiasm to deal with this as a Crisis is 4T, but the commentary very well could have been stated (and probably was) about some young adults during the (very 3T) Gulf War. Again, what was there about this image that gave you this reaction?
Christopher O'Conor
13er, '68 cohort







Post#266 at 10-10-2001 03:13 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Evidence we're in a 4T: My Boomer husband ('59 cohort) told me last night that if bin Laden and his associates attack the US with biological weapons, we should nuke them. No questions asked. "Turn that place into a sheet of glass."

This from a guy who worked on Jerry Brown's 1980 presidential campaign.

Kiff '61







Post#267 at 10-10-2001 03:52 PM by Kurt63 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 36]
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On 2001-10-10 13:13, Kiff '61 wrote:
Evidence we're in a 4T: My Boomer husband ('59 cohort) told me last night that if bin Laden and his associates attack the US with biological weapons, we should nuke them. No questions asked. "Turn that place into a sheet of glass."

This from a guy who worked on Jerry Brown's 1980 presidential campaign.

Kiff '61
I was shocked when my own sweet, reasonable wife (b.1965) told me that she wished we could drop a nuclear bomb on wherever we think that Osama bin Laden is. I have been rather surprised by the militant stand taken by some usually liberal women that I know.

My own sexist view is that the TV images of crowds of women desperately clutching photographs of husbands and lovers that the viewers know the women will never see again, suggested that these terrorists are a threat at a very personal level. It's just a theory anyway.

Kurt '63







Post#268 at 10-10-2001 03:58 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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I was waiting for the local news last night, when NBC's Dateline ended another piece of analysis of the current condition with a montage of suffering and Simon & Garfunkel music.


It would seem that the combination of Boomer music and tears is the ultimate reflection of the Reality of this Turning...that is the Third Turning. HTH







Post#269 at 10-10-2001 04:23 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-10-2001, 04:23 PM #269
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On 2001-10-10 13:52, Kurt63 wrote:
On 2001-10-10 13:13, Kiff '61 wrote:
Evidence we're in a 4T: My Boomer husband ('59 cohort) told me last night that if bin Laden and his associates attack the US with biological weapons, we should nuke them. No questions asked. "Turn that place into a sheet of glass."

This from a guy who worked on Jerry Brown's 1980 presidential campaign.

Kiff '61
I was shocked when my own sweet, reasonable wife (b.1965) told me that she wished we could drop a nuclear bomb on wherever we think that Osama bin Laden is. I have been rather surprised by the militant stand taken by some usually liberal women that I know.

My own sexist view is that the TV images of crowds of women desperately clutching photographs of husbands and lovers that the viewers know the women will never see again, suggested that these terrorists are a threat at a very personal level. It's just a theory anyway.

Kurt '63
Kurt, I don't know if your wife is a feminist, but feminists hate the Taliban with a passion, because of their brutal and repressive treatment of women.







Post#270 at 10-10-2001 04:24 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-10-2001, 04:24 PM #270
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Yeah! I'm learning bb code!

Lets try a smilie:

:smile:







Post#271 at 10-10-2001 05:20 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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I've gotten more proof that we are entering 4T after seeing the movie Training Day yesterday. Basically, it is a movie about a rouge cop.

The mood of the movie is VERY mid to late 1990s, which feels dramatically different from today. The movie had a dark-frenetic quality to it. The movie is full of 1990s era hopelessness, dread, etc.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#272 at 10-10-2001 06:15 PM by cbailey [at B. 1950 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,559]
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I'm saying that this "patriotism" that these folks are expressing is Third Turning. It has a chaotic, unraveling feel to it. The racism that I talked about is pretty wide-spread out here in the West. Ask any Native-American. Our small county has had a Hate Crime case in the last year, complete with mailings to all the citizens from a White Supremist group from Texas. The Defendent was 24.

I know that most Gen Xers are color-blind. I'm just saying there is a part of that group that has really been left behind in this economy, and they are not happy.







Post#273 at 10-10-2001 08:33 PM by David Krein [at Gainesville, Florida joined Jul 2001 #posts 604]
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Yeh, sure, Mr. Saari, now you Boomers want to steal Simon and Garfunkel. Next you'll be claiming your fellow Minnesotan, B. Dylan (-:.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42







Post#274 at 10-10-2001 10:38 PM by Barbara [at 1931 Silent from Pleasantville joined Aug 2001 #posts 2,352]
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ROTFLMAO, Dave! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Silently, that is..... :grin:







Post#275 at 10-10-2001 10:38 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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I'm note sure how to file this, but here it is:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20..._pledge_1.html


This is apparently totally without irony or embarrassment, and it reminds me a lot of descriptions of the thirties and forties. It also sort of reminds me of some very old cartoons and newsreels I've seen from that time, in tone.
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