On 2001-10-13 12:59, Barbara wrote:
Well, Chris, I'm glad I chose restraint, and my reply to you was restrained compared to what I wanted to reply, since you now admit what I sensed, that you did go overboard on purpose to provoke a reply. I rather admire you for admitting it. And you do have a talent for it. Are you really proud of it, though?

Quite. Do you find it so suprising that I should? And thank you for the compliment.

Do you mean, Chris, that my generation should be silent, or do you mean you think that our two gens are meant to adversarial opponents (ie, antagonist)? Or, do you just enjoy giving a good tweak and members of my generation are very good victims, as my '65 son is fond of reminding me?

Yes. :wink:

And I'll continue to say what I think, and speak my mind, and I think I have proven on this board that I can work together to solve our problems just as well as anyone else here. IOW, to me, this attack came out of nowhere, and any difference of opinion could have been addressed in a much more civil manner and I'd have been very gracious in feeling someone else's pain if it had been communicated as such.

I keep a bright outlook that Chris and I will see better, more communicative times. Every day is a new day, in my book. But, the blood of overboard attacks, if he chooses to continue in same vein, are on his hands, not mine.

:lol: Charlie McCarthy never said it better, Barbara.

On 2001-10-13 13:11, TrollKing wrote:
...blow it out your ass.

Keep practicing, brother. You're getting the hang of it. :smile:

Now, if I can just get Brian and Virgil to sing a duet of, "Give Peace A Chance", this will end up perfect. :lol:

choselh ponders the deep blue skies, "I guess I just don't get why people are so mean to each other on this list, when we have so much more to worry about these days."

Quite frankly, I don't think we are. Yes tensions rise sometimes. Something said here, a response there... but overall, I think we get along rather well given the wide range of opinions present and the ever present Boomer intensity for self righteousness.

That I would poke fun at a counselwoman in the "bastion of liberialism," or even at some of the silly comments (IMHO, of course :smile: ) within these threads, only means I too, become fair play.

But do play fair, k? Now let's all go shoppin'! :grin:

In the entire West in a 3T or a 4T overall? I'm not sure yet, but here is something that seems relevant:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...163745_000.htm

Make of it what you will!

I understand the turmoil that you and many of your readers feel regarding the WTC/Pentagon attacks and their relationship to the beginning of a new fourth turning. On the one hand, this event had an incredible impact on our country and the world that will long be remembered. On the other hand, it appears somewhat premature to begin the fourth turning as described in your books. After much thought over the past month, I now belive that the 'defining moment' of the start of the new turning has not yet occurred, but that the events of late 2001 will be the catalyst for this defining moment.

Firstly, from an historical viewpoint, I disagree that this event was similar to the 1920 Wall Street bombing. The 1920 bombing was predominantly felt by eastern money interests in particular and northeasterners in general. The people of California and Texas were less aware, and hence less-affected by the bombing. The average American also had no money in the stock market at that time. By comparision, most Americans knew within hours of the 911 attacks. Many did not work that day while others of us made an attempt to 'focus' while we listened to radios and TV's in the background. Gallup Polling indicated that 1 in 5 Americans (that's over 50 million people)knew someone in one of the 4 planes or the WTC or the Pentagon who was directly affected by the attacks. On 9/11/01 we were all attacked in spirit and, over the past four weeks, thousands of large and small memorials have been held in every state. In addition, my friends in both Canada and England say that their communities were as affected as mine in Seattle.

This event was far too major to be unimportant in the timeline of world history. But rather than joining those who say we are now beginning a new era or those who say that we will experience another decade of the old era, I will hedge and say that events have now been launched that will propel the U.S. toward a fourth turning in just a few years. In the past, fourth turnings have always begun with pivotal events that shatter the dominant interests of the preceeding 80 to 100 years. The secession of South Carolina (followed by the other southern states) in 1861 shattered the mindset that the U.S. as a nation was a viable reality. The stock market crash shattered the mindset that progress came through capitalism.

Since 1933, we have lived through an era believing that a multifacited government would protect us and, although we are all a little nervous now, we continue to trust in our government. I honestly believe that a new fourth turning cannot occur until some important element of our government ceases to function as we have come to expect. (Let me say here that I am a political moderate and definitely not an extremist.) Our nation faces major problems that will now lose the interest of our elected leaders for several years because of the new crisis. We will ignore Social Security, the national debt, massive governmental inefficiencies, infastructural obsolesence (i.e.,inadequate transportation systems) and campaign finance reform. Eventually, this avoidance will lead to unexpected breakdowns.

America has united as a family and we are learning lessons (such as sacrifice and honor) that most of us have never been taught. We are rediscovering faith and how to help each other. We are tired of the rancor and rush of the past and, although we abhor recent events, we like having a new sense of national identity. We are on the threshhold of a new turning in America.

Well, Chris, with that bit of nonsense, indicating that you are being rude purely for the sake of rude, you place yourself firmly into the "ignore" category.


I will make no more response to anything you post until such time as you have demonstrated a bit more maturity. My advice to everyone else here is to do likewise.


You will, of course, feel inclined to respond to this with a bit more rudeness, and my advice to you about that, which you will probably disregard, is: don't waste your time. You certainly won't be wasting any more of mine.

Mr. Rush sounds a clarion call, "I will make no more response to anything you post until such time as you have demonstrated a bit more maturity. My advice to everyone else here is to do likewise."

I dunno about that. I seemed to remember a time not too long ago when such kinds of "maturity" were demonstrated quite loudly:

Posted by: Brian Rush
Date posted: Wed Jan 31 15:16:44 2001

"(I notice in passing that Marc Lamb posted something in response as well, but he long ago proved himself not worthy of bothering with. So I won't.)"

Posted by: Mike Alexander
Date posted: Wed Jan 31 17:01:30 2001

"I agree with your [Marc Lamb's] post on environmental doomsayers. This has to be a first."

Posted by: Brian Rush (Brian Rush )
Date posted: Wed Jan 31 17:01:30 2001

"I agree with your [Marc Lamb's] post on environmental doomsayers. This has to be a first."

"This tells me that your [Mike Alexander] thoughts don't need to be taken seriously, either. That should save me a lot of time in the future. I appreciate the courtesey."


Posted by: Steve Barrera
Date posted: Thu Feb 1 8:32:52 2001

"Brian, I am getting sick of reading your insults. Please rememeber that the operators of this site have requested a civil attitude from posters."

Quoting Mr. Rush: "The fact remains, however, Mr. A., that if you can agree with that unbelievably unknowing piece of twaddle, which essentially argued...Marc Lamb was being every bit as stupid as he always is."

Mr. Barrera: "You may also wish to consider that your arrogant and mean-spirited tone discredits your arguments."


Comment:
While I may disagree with the attitude displayed by Mr. Christopher O'Conor, nevertheless, I am altogether confident that Barb can handle herself just fine in her debate with him, Mr. Rush.

Furthermore, I continue to be troubled by your never ending insistence that those who disagree with you must shut-up.

You are not the owner of this website, Mr. Rush. And you are not the moderator of this website, Mr. Rush. And you are certainly not the sole authoritive voice of truth at this website, Mr. Rush.

Now get over it!

On 2001-10-13 07:15, choselh wrote:
I had thought that we were headed into 4T, but now I'm not so sure. It seems to me that people are running scared these days, not working together to solve our problems.

Actually, society doesn't really begin to work out problems together until the regeneracy of 4T, and even so, that togetherness does not come together in full until climax of 4T.

On 2001-10-14 22:31, madscientist wrote:

On 2001-10-13 07:15, choselh wrote:
I had thought that we were headed into 4T, but now I'm not so sure. It seems to me that people are running scared these days, not working together to solve our problems.

Actually, society doesn't really begin to work out problems together until the regeneracy of 4T, and even so, that togetherness does not come together in full until climax of 4T.

Even that assumes that all goes well, which is a relative view.

From the point of view of the Americans, the Revolutionary 4T ended well, but to a supporter of the British Empire, it was a failed Fourth. There was certainly no regeneracy from the Civil War 4T, though had the Confederacy won they would view it differently now.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HopefulCynic68 on 2001-10-14 22:48 ]</font>

FYI:

This post I found in the 'Your reaction to the 911 attack' thread might go a long way in explaining the attitude of Mr. Christopher O'Conor these days:

[Mr. O'Conor] I'd heard about the Pentagon getting hit while I was in the car, but didn't think anything of it. The only person who'd be near there was Patrick (a cousin who is a Navy Commander), and he should have been reassigned to sea duty by now.

The rest of the day was a blur, and no one got any work done. I called the limo company, but I knew the answer hours before. With the airport closed, I couldn't work the second job until things settled down. As of this writing, I've worked one day at the airport since then, and many of my coworkers are barely scraping by due to the reduced traffic.

The fog remained through the next day, 9/12, until about 10:00. The phone rings at my desk at the day job. Patrick was still assigned to the Pentagon, and he's one of those missing.

Much anxiety and grief later, I'm still in Florida, but my parents have since flown to Washington. Patrick (a first wave 13er who graduated 13 from the bottom at Annapolis) was identified by his dental records, and will be interred beside the heroes of all our wars in Arlington.

His beautiful young widow of 1-1/2 years is 3 months pregnant.

So... my hometown is in ruins, I'm running out of money to pay the bills because the airport is a ghost town, my kids are scared, my family is devastated by the heart-wrenching personal loss of a warm and funny young man cut down in his prime, his child will never know his father except as the subject of a history lesson, and my country is at war.

You can all stay in 3T if you want, but I've passed the catalyst with a vengence.

"This generation has a rendesvous with destiny." - FDR



Ms. Genser later confirmed his story, "Christopher, I was so sad to read of your loss."

"Reading the Washington Post today, I saw in the local news section front page a photograph of the funeral of a naval officer killed in the blast. The name of the officer was Patrick Dunn and his widow was pregnant, so it must have been for your cousin."

I too, am sorry for your loss, Chris.

A Lament


How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places.

I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.

How are the mighty fallen, and the weapons of war perished!

2 Samuel 1:25-27

Pacifists, take up the flag!

"Bin Laden is no neo-Marxist hero, as you want to believe. He's a warmongering capitalist pig out to rule the world. Arise! Throw down your peace signs and take up the flag. Stop this aggressor in the name of the people"
-- George F. Smith


Boy, how is Donna Spring out in the "bastion of liberalism" gonna take this?

Gee, no wonder why all the lefties here at 4T are singing the praises of President Bush!

My, oh my. :smile:

On 2001-10-15 12:37, Marc Lamb wrote:

...no wonder why all the lefties here at 4T are singing the praises of President Bush....

uh, marc, bush is still an idiot. the only reason he's doing a good job right now is that, realistically, there is no other choice. if 9/11 hadn't occurred, he'd still be floundering. 9/11 gave him the focus he needed to come off as clear.


TK

Marc, there is a difference between being rude simply for the sake of being rude, and insulting someone who has earned the treatment.


I have never been rude for the sake of being rude, nor insulted anyone who hasn't earned the treatment.


Moreover, they earned the treatment not be "disagreeing with me" (something most people do about one thing or another), but by being obnoxious, bigoted, and insufferable. As, on a number of occasions, you have done.


Now, I am also aware that I'm not the moderator of this site. I am, however, the moderator of my own responses to people. In that area, my authority is absolute. And it was to that area only that I was referring, when I promised to ignore Chris henceforth until he demonstrated a bit more maturity.


You've already demonstrated a bit more maturity than you used to, which is why I'm bothering to respond to that bit of backsliding you evidenced earlier. You've shown yourself worth the effort.

Marc says:
"Ms. Angeli takes offence at my desire to laugh in the face of mine enemy
starting here and continuing for many days, nights, and pages ad nauseam."

No, in fact, ms angeli objects to nothing of the sort. ms angeli objects to being called a racist because she doesn't share your sense of humor.

If you *must* bring that garbage up again, at least be accurate. ms. angeli, being in graduate school, doesn't have the time to post 20 times a day and is sick of the entire topic in any case.

While reading a biography of George S. Patton by Major-General Hubert Essame (1896-1976), I found the following comment quite interesting.

?The material difficulties to be surmounted [in 1941] however were as nothing compared with the problem of morale. The Americans were not at war and would not be until the Japanese gave them no alternative at Pearl Harbor on 6 December 1941, two years and four months after the British. The recruits coming into the Army had little of the enthusiasm of their fathers who had flocked to join the colours in 1917. They were not professional soldiers and they never wanted to be. There was little apparent sense of dedication. Profoundly civilian at heart they read the newspapers where the advertising industry fawned upon them, inciting them towards the soft life and self-indulgence in all its forms. They read at least the headlines of the newspapers; the radio and the movies had profoundly coloured their outlook. All these influences had tended to stress their so-called democratic rights rather than their obligations to their country. Their attitude to authority was often critical. Some, unaware of the offence-oriented optimism and will to fight which comes from exercise and simple diet, were physically soft and morally flabby. Many were resentful at being deprived of their democratic rights.?

Apparently, the present generation of Americans is not terribly different than their forefathers. I find this idea comforting.

I just attended a lecture on covering terrorism. I would tell you my thoughts but they are still jelling. Mostly though it looks like the journalistic profession got caught with its britches down when it came to covering international events (shocked, shocked I am!).

I'm glad somebody finally noticed, though I wish it didn't take something like this to make them notice.

It is, is not[?], surprising that I post another obvious PARODY Pacifists, take up the flag!, and ms angeli responds?


First there is a 'TrollKing' who writes, "uh, marc, bush is still an idiot. the only reason he's doing a good job right now is that, realistically, there is no other choice. if 9/11 hadn't occurred, he'd still be floundering. 9/11 gave him the focus he needed to come off as clear."

"...realistically, there is no other choice." Now that is penetrating insight!

And then, ms angeli, who claims, "No, in fact, ms angeli objects to nothing of the sort. ms angeli objects to being called a racist because she doesn't share your sense of humor."

No, in fact, Mr. Lamb objects to ms angeli saying...
"laugh it up, white man" who just happened to have a 'sense of humor.'

And finally, Mr. Rush, who writes, "You've [Marc Lamb] already demonstrated a bit more maturity than you used to, which is why I'm bothering to respond to that bit of backsliding you evidenced earlier.

[Marc] In their first book Generations, Messrs Strauss and Howe cited two trends (page 401) of 'midlife Boomer factions' to watch for,' lest 'America will be heading for trouble.'

The first of these 'trends' was epitomized by William Jefferson Clinton. No need to revisit that 'youth fixated narcissism into their forties and fifties' now.

But the 'second trend' will be the 'split between the New Age (modernist) and the evangelical (traditionalist) camps...'

You and I, late-wave 'Prophets', Mr. Rush--like the neo-pagan H.L. Mencken and the 'Christian' Franklin Roosevelt--are the epitome of that 'split.' In that light, I have endeavored to seek a path unto 'maturity' as our generation matures, Mr. Rush:

I tried apologizing to you
Here, Mr. Rush. And you would have none of it.

I tried singing with you
Here, Mr. Rush. And you would have none of it.

And now, it is you that is 'bothering to respond' because I 'demonstrated a bit more maturity' than I 'used to.'

Hence, sadly I am not, at this point, encouraged wherein the issue of 'America will be heading for trouble.'


"To what then shall I compare the men of this generation?" Jesus wondered. "And what are they like?"

"They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, "We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.'
-- Luke 7:31,32



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2001-10-15 20:26 ]</font>

On 2001-10-15 19:02, Marc Lamb wrote:

First there is a 'TrollKing' who writes, "uh, marc, bush is still an idiot. the only reason he's doing a good job right now is that, realistically, there is no other choice. if 9/11 hadn't occurred, he'd still be floundering. 9/11 gave him the focus he needed to come off as clear."

"...realistically, there is no other choice." Now that is penetrating insight!

a TrollKing? don't i warrant the same courtesy you extend to the other posters? shouldn't i be "mr. TrollKing"? or at least "mr. King"?

but seriously, you may call me "TrollKing", "mr. TrollKing", "TK", "that one annoying/boring/irrelevant guy", "jackass", whatever. it matters little, if at all.

regarding my "penetrating insight", nice way of brushing off the argument. i can only assume you have nothing with which to refute my claim. ah, well.


TK

On 2001-10-15 19:02, Marc Lamb wrote:

First there is a 'TrollKing' who writes, "uh, marc, bush is still an idiot. the only reason he's doing a good job right now is that, realistically, there is no other choice. if 9/11 hadn't occurred, he'd still be floundering. 9/11 gave him the focus he needed to come off as clear."

"...realistically, there is no other choice." Now that is penetrating insight!

He is being overly generous. Every time Junior gets on the tube with that "All the Taliban needs to do is cough up x, y, z...d, e, f, g...q, r, s..." routine, he looks and sounds like an eight year-old who has just climbed down from his tree fort. But consider the content of his swagger. Does he really believe that the Taliban has all these individuals manacled and chained together in a line, at their fingertips and ready for transport? No, he is making a demand which he knows the Taliban cannot meet. But more importantly the rest of the world, in particular the Arab world, understands that he is making a demand which he knows the Taliban cannot meet. What gets lost in all the posturing for poll numbers here is that, in the aftermath of 911, we have the moral authority to take out any brutal government which would house and support such barbarians and we do not need to make up an excuse to do so. But, true to form, this administration shunts the moral argument. And in consequence, the Arab world merely sees more of the same morally bankrupt American jingoism which irritates them so.

This war -- and crisis -- do not bode well for us unless and until either George W. Bush decides to sever his relationship with the apparatus behind him or someone who is totally free of establishment control can be voted into office. I am not holding my breath for either eventuality and you should not be either.

Is one in the Chamber a mark of the 4T?

We aren't there yet if Col David Hackworth is right about this in the 16 October 2001 Defending America column "Lock and Load Now!" at Worldnetdaily.com. HTH

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Virgil K. Saari on 2001-10-16 07:47 ]</font>

If you haven't done so already, I'd like to ask you to take the time to complete the survey at another survey

Thanks.

Marc, thank you for posting Chris68's post from the other thread and helping to connect the dots as to his reaction to our pledge and flag talk. In an ironic twist of sorts, my oldest brother was killed in World War II, so I of all people probably should understand. However, I still do not possess psychic abilities, but this whole thing made me remember similar times during and right after the last Crisis. I can remember my mother over-reacting to others' comments that she saw as too careless or thoughtless, because she and we were in pain, disjointed from reality, until Time healed enough wounds.

I suspect Chris is further into this Crisis emotionally than most of us due to his loss, and most understandably so. It will be a minefield of emotions for many of us during this coming Turning, so I reseolve to try to remember 2 things: when we have unwittingly hurt, understand the other's perspective, if possible; and when we have been hurt, remember to keep perspective, if possible. Life - the Reality, is relentless in that it does tend to continue on, unabated.

So, Chris, I may have reacted like Charlie McCarthy, but it was only because I didn't realize what was going on with you, and I now grieve with you over the loss of your cousin. Whether my teaching career was insulted is no longer as important to me. Come back and post again, we don't want to lose you, as well. I took the time to read several of your prior posts here on T4T, and you are a sensitive, intuitive writer with important things to say.

Marc Lamb
Posted: September 14, 2001 19:28
Is the Fourth Turning Coming?

Quote:
"We are about to undergo a radical change in this country. But it ain't a 4T change, as Mr. Rush wants to believe. It's a radical change closely resembling the early twenties. And that is why everyone fears this F/R thing. You think that in the midst of all this flag wavin", their gonna win one for the gipper. Right?"

Let's go for a history lesson here...

You can check out...
"A story that same year in the Washington Post noted with approval how in Chicago, a sailor shot another man merely for failing to rise during the national anthem."
By clicking here:

Or... Find out how "A. Mitchell Palmer claimed that Communist agents from Russia were planning to overthrow the American government. On 7th November, 1919, the second anniversary of the Russian Revolution, over 10,000 suspected communists and anarchists were arrested in what became known as the Palmer Raids. Palmer and Hoover found no evidence of a proposed revolution but large number of these suspects were held without trial for a long time. The vast majority were eventually released but Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Mollie Steimer, and 245 other people, were deported to Russia."
By clicking here:

This IS the America of the near future. If you doubt it...

Think anthrax."


Tuesday October 16, 7:42 PM
World gripped by anthrax panic as US cases rise



p.s. My point here is not about stating the obvious concerning the possible scare about anthrax, but rather something else. Namely our response to it.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2001-10-16 11:42 ]</font>

I've some more comments that I hope I don't later regret, but here goes.

Marc, although I've usually tried to back away from commenting on some of your posts I disagree with (and I suspect you do the same with me), I must try to go against my generational tendency now (and also at the risk of re-appearing as "Mom" between you two. :smile: IMO, Brian, in his "ignore" post, was simply repeating what he'd posited to Edgar over on the Women and 4th Turning thread. This I took to be consistency on his part and nothing else. Perhaps you hadn't read that thread, but I thought you had...

As for your recent comments about angeli and the prior squabble: hey, she posted her opinion and you posted yours. Neither of you is going to change the other's mind or viewpoint on that. I read that exchange, and viewed it as angeli telling you your behavior was what she found racist. Never once did it lead me to think she was really calling YOU a blanket generic racist, no matter what her words might have been at the time (and I've not enough time right now to go read them again - and please don't post them again!). We know you aren't racist, then and now. I liked your first recent words, to paraphrase, that we all need to coexist here, warts and all. And that very much includes having angeli remain here as one of us. I'm glad to see you back, Angeli. Please stay.

Lastly, Marc, a gentle curiosity: that you can bring up so many quotes of other posters' seemingly at a moment's notice is something I find both fascinating and well, sort of intimidating. How in the world can you do that without expending vast amounts of time on it? Is this something you've developed in your vocation as a documentary producer? (And, a plea: please don't *show* me by regurgitating everything I've ever said. That would be a huge space-waster <g>, and I'm already convinced you could if you needed to, no need to prove it, please).

I do respect you Marc, as I respect Brian and Angeli, as well as everyone else here posting. I know you bring up these things again as food for thought, but the immense, vast quotation system is beginning to remind me too much of Big Brother.

Now, back to our regularly-scheduled Newspeak and Doublespeak (joking)......

I don't see the similarty between the leftists rounded up by the Palmer Raids and al Qaida.

Bin Laden strikes me as a rightwinger. The worldview of men like bin Laden is not disimilar to that of the extreme American religious Right. Both hate the atheistic American culture with its strutting homosexuals and bra-burning feminists and both hate the US government. Both have an obsessive hatred of the Jews. One refers to the US government as "Zionist Crusader Alliance" and the other as "Zionist Occupation Government".

The targets selected by bin Laden were the very heart of "Blueland": New York City, the liberal press, the Democratic Senate Majority Leader and the US government--all natural targets for an extreme Rightwinger like bin Laden.

The biggest difference between them is fundamentalist Islam provides a glorious afterlife for suicidal attacks in a Jihad, whereas fundamentalist Christianity frowns on suicide. This is an extremely important difference for it makes the former far more dangerous.