What Buchanan said two years ago was prophetic.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/11/WTC_Buchanan.html

More evidence to the decline of the celebrity culture that foretells the end of the 3rd turning:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/19/gen...udy/index.html

On 2001-11-19 14:22, sv81 wrote:
What Buchanan said two years ago was prophetic.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/11/WTC_Buchanan.html

The scary thing is that I actually agree with everything this far-rightist said (being a far-leftist myself).

While Americans struggle in the War on Terror, Minnesota's solons fight a bigger foe: Osama Selig and the Mullah Pohlad want to terroize the <s>sheep</s> taxpayers of this state into a new stadium.


The Progressives do not want any fingerprints on the Twins corpse or the taxpayers wallet.These days, baseball matters again in 3T Minnesota.

Should this have gone to the "miltary tribunal"? Did not every thing change?


We are asked to sacrifice and stay at normality. Yet, this turkey lives?

I've spent the last ten minutes looking for the thread where we talk about whether we're making changes to our lives post-911. Can't find it. So I'm posting this here instead because it sorta fits.

Because, I am thrilled to be able to tell you, I am making changes to my life. I'm engaged to be married, and we've started house shopping.

I don't think I'd say that this is because of any change in turnings; this has all been developing for over a year now, and I certainly saw it coming. Nevertheless the timing is the timing. And I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't aware of the whole 13ers-will-restrengthen-the-family, Crisis-as-a-time-of-regeneration thing. But, you know, not my primary concern.

Congratulations, Mr. Elsmslie and my best wishes and/or congratulations (whichever applies) to your spouse-to-be.

Yo. Ob. Sv. Virgil K. Saari

<center> <font size="5">National Service for Millies</font> </center>

http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/1120/p3s1-ussc.html

<font color="blue">
New duties, new recruits fuel youth corps
Since Sept. 11, AmeriCorps attracts bipartisan support, hundreds more volunteers
By Seth Stern | Special to The Christian Science Monitor

Ryan Morra is barely out of high school. But the young man has found himself in a far more demanding job than he ever imagined: interviewing families who lost relatives at the World Trade Center attacks.

The teenage volunteer helps make sure families get enough money to survive the next three months.

Mr. Morra, who works at the Family Assistance Center in New York, is one of thousands of young people looking to help their country by serving in AmeriCorps - and their ranks have been growing since Sept. 11.

Since the attacks, the number of people expressing interest in a 10-month to two-year AmeriCorps tour of duty jumped by 30 percent - from 1,100 to 1,400 a week.

Bipartisan legislation currently making its way through Congress seeks to harness such zeal by turning the program into the largest national service effort since Franklin Roosevelt's Civilian Conservation Corps, outpacing even its more famous sibling, the Peace Corps.

Sens. John McCain (R) of Arizona and Evan Bayh (D) of Indiana have proposed expanding the number of participants, who currently do everything from tutoring inner-city youths to cleaning hiking trails, from 50,000 to 250,000 over the next decade.

The president has signaled his approval for the program in recent speeches, calling the 18- to 24-year-old recruits the perfect foot soldiers in the domestic battle against terrorism.

"You really do see this bipartisan coalescence bringing to bear the optimism and enthusiasm of youth," says Mark Gearan, a former director of the Peace Corps and Clinton aide.

Even traditional critics of the program seem to be at least softening their opposition. "The Bush administration wants it," says Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R) of Michigan, who chairs the House subcommittee responsible for overseeing AmeriCorps. "With a series of reforms, it could be a program that most conservatives would buy into."

Representative Hoekstra has promised to push through AmeriCorps's reauthorization next year, and says he's keeping an open mind about expansion. But his reservations, particularly about the program's finances, remain.

AmeriCorps has been viewed with skepticism by many conservatives since former President Clinton proposed it in 1993 as a way to encourage young people who might not be interested in working in government to serve their country.

Currently, volunteers have been dispersed in 1,000 communities throughout the country. AmeriCorps members, who are mostly students on their way into or out of college, receive a modest living allowance and a $4,725 educational award at the end of their service.

With only small squads of AmeriCorps members in any given place, the program remained invisible to most Americans, says Northwestern University sociologist Charles Moskos. For example, a 1995 national survey found that more high school students had heard of the Depression-era CCC than AmeriCorps.

Senators McCain and Bayh want to enlist at least half of the proposed 250,000 recruits, plus thousands more senior-citizen volunteers, into homeland defense. The expanded corps would cost an additional $2.6 billion its first year, McCain estimates.

That's a role President Bush encouraged two weeks ago, when he called on Americans to help fight terrorism by "making a commitment of service in our own communities."

For example, 19 AmeriCorps volunteers patrol parks and schools in Clearwater, Fla., while assigned to the city's police department. "They're the eyes and ears of the police department, and they make residents feel safer," says Clearwater Deputy Police Chief Dewey Williams.

In the future, AmeriCorps participants could also help lead immunization drives in the event of another biological-weapons attack or do backroom work in police and fire stations to free up rescue workers, says Leslie Lenkowsky, new chief executive officer of the Corporation for National and Community Service, which oversees AmeriCorps.

Dr. Moskos says AmeriCorps volunteers might even reinforce customs inspectors and airport security guards, after receiving the same length of training given federal law-enforcement agents.

But enlisting and managing another 200,000 recruits would be a big challenge, says Stephen Goldsmith, the former Indianapolis mayor who now chairs the board of directors that oversees AmeriCorps.

"It takes a lot of effort to screen, train, and deploy them," says Mr. Goldsmith.

And some congressional leaders remain skeptical about expanding AmeriCorps's mission too far. "You've got to be very, very careful," says Hoekstra. "You don't just put untrained people as a first line of defense."

But Morra, who signed up with Americorps after graduating from a Connecticut high school last year, says he can't think of a place he'd rather be.

"It's been quite intense and emotionally exhausting," says Morra, But, he adds, "There's nothing better that I can be doing with my time right now than helping these people."</font>

Matthew, CONGRATS!

Congratulations on your engagement, Matthew!

Kiff '61

Congrats, Matthew.

Sooo . . . what gen is your spouse to be?

:smile:

I do not think that people will care for Gary Condit anymore. To most people, the time for that has just passed.

I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous. The "time" for Gary Condit is no less of a thing now then it was back in the summer. A single terrorist attack does not make an issue irrelevant. Certainly not when Xers are sticking surprisingly well to their 3T modes. I come to know more and more people every day who embrace the popular culture that IS Gen X, be it from 1979 or 2001, and the passage of time makes it more and more dubious that it will at all be declining. The creation of alternative and independent culture has only been continuing and evolving since 911. And as for Gary Condit himself, he is an important question--something we're going to have to find out about 911 or not. What DID happen to Chandra Levy? This is standard news fare, it's an important question in its own right. When they find out, it should be reported. This wasn't a story invented by the news. It's happening.

Everyone alive today knows that we are at a historic moment. Even so, very few people can even grasp what the ultimate result will be.

True, and the Clinton Impeachment was an historic moment. And Gary Condit was an historic moment. The execution of Tim McVeigh was an historic moment. And the original Oklahoma City Bombing was an historic moment too. The start of the Persian Gulf War was, by its very definition, an historic moment. But these didn't mean that every aspect of our lives is going to change.

I think our generation generally supports fighting Afghanistan because it wants to see the Taliban punished and its attacks avenged. Our generation is generally in favor of war against Afghanistan and opposed to the United States, as a government and country in itself. We'd like to see the Taliban destroyed in war no matter who's doing the battling, be it the United States, Great Britain, or visitors from Andromeda who want to come down to save us all from the face of Evil on Earth. Of course, one faction of the generation takes it even further, and opposes war because the equate it with a triumphant declaration of the superiority of the United States, and one faction of them even celebrates the bombing because it was done in the name of opposition to America. The president and his entire Congress are being the ones to fight back against the attackers, but that doesn't make them immune to perpetrating evil or worthy or unconditional trust. Some older generations don't seem to be understanding that as well as we.

On 2001-11-20 19:37, Jesse Manoogian wrote:
I think our generation generally supports fighting Afghanistan because it wants to see the Taliban punished and its attacks avenged. Our generation is generally in favor of war against Afghanistan and opposed to the United States, as a government and country in itself. We'd like to see the Taliban destroyed in war no matter who's doing the battling, be it the United States, Great Britain, or visitors from Andromeda who want to come down to save us all from the face of Evil on Earth.

Uhm... The Taliban didn't attack us. They had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. Stay with me here,

-19 guys hijacked and crashed planes into buildings in the US.

-Osama bin Laden has been fingered as the instigator, coordinator, and/or financier (it's never been clear which) by the US.

-ObL and his group, Al Quaeda, were 'headquartered' at the time in Afghanistan.

-The Taliban was the de facto ruling party in Afghanistan.

-The Taliban refused to 'surrender' ObL as the US demanded -- A) Without evidence, and B) to the US only.

-We bomb them and work with their enemies to run the Taliban into the ground.

Just wanted to catch everyone up.

Thanks to all for their congratulations and kind words. It's much appreciated. (She's an Xer, by the way.)

The 4T did not start with 911. It was a boundary defining the end of the Millennial generation brith years. Anyone born after 2001 will be part of the next generation cohort. Readers of the 4T book posting on this forum are confused because they haven't realized the difference between events that define the boundaries of generations and the events that define the boundaries of each Turning. We need to continue to prepare for the 4T.

On 2001-11-24 17:01, Richard Turnock wrote:
The 4T did not start with 911. It was a boundary defining the end of the Millennial generation brith years. Anyone born after 2001 will be part of the next generation cohort. Readers of the 4T book posting on this forum are confused because they haven't realized the difference between events that define the boundaries of generations and the events that define the boundaries of each Turning. We need to continue to prepare for the 4T.

Respectfully, I think you're dead wrong. Generational boundaries tend to be defined by an age-set when an event occurs. Example: if your cohort can remember JFK's assassination, you're a Boomer (or older generation). If you were too young, you're X. Turning boundaries are defined by the mass reaction of all age sets to an event, the type of reaction generally determined by phase of life.

Get your winter coat on, before you freeze out there! :smile:

Joneser (who else would argue with "Boomer", eh?)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: L Leavell on 2001-11-24 17:47 ]</font>

On 2001-11-24 17:45, L Leavell wrote:

On 2001-11-24 17:01, Richard Turnock wrote:
The 4T did not start with 911. It was a boundary defining the end of the Millennial generation brith years. Anyone born after 2001 will be part of the next generation cohort. Readers of the 4T book posting on this forum are confused because they haven't realized the difference between events that define the boundaries of generations and the events that define the boundaries of each Turning. We need to continue to prepare for the 4T.

Respectfully, I think you're dead wrong. Generational boundaries tend to be defined by an age-set when an event occurs. Example: if your cohort can remember JFK's assassination, you're a Boomer (or older generation). If you were too young, you're X. Turning boundaries are defined by the mass reaction of all age sets to an event, the type of reaction generally determined by phase of life.

Get your winter coat on, before you freeze out there! :smile:

Joneser (who else would argue with "Boomer", eh?)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: L Leavell on 2001-11-24 17:47 ]</font>

I couldn't agree more. With the first full year of 4T being 2002, the last year of the Millennial Generation will be likely be 1998.

Those kids who were born in 1997 or earlier, like my 5 year old nephew, seem very aware of the 911 attack and will likely never forget it. They recognize its significance not by any real understanding of the details of the event, rather by the reactions of their parents and other adults close to them.

OTOH, my baby niece who was born in 1999 is blissfully unaware that anything in the world is different from Sept. 10, 2001-- when she grows older she will not remember what the world was like during the Unravelling and will only know the current 4T societal mood. At age two, she is already the quintessential New Silent "sweet innocent".

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kevin Parker '59 on 2001-11-24 19:36 ]</font>

An "I told you so"?

"As Marc Lamb points out, the last time we had a big bomb go off on Wall Street was near the end of the post-WWI "Red Scare." The scare was a reaction to an anarchist / Bolshevist bombing campaign, including mail bombs and coordinated multi-city blasts (on July 2, 1919) that succeeded in partially destroying the residence of Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer. It spawned the notorioius Palmer raids, which in turn may have led to the famous Wall Street bombing of 1920 that killed 20 people. But what did the Red Scare itself trigger? An isolationist reaction, a fervor to shut out the world, a demand to punish as many perpetrators as we could catch and to round up and send the rest "back where they came from." Above all, it triggered a desire to avoid the larger problem--social, economic, political--underlying the violence. We wanted "normalcy." In short, America moved more deeply into a Third Turning, not yet into a Fourth." --Neil Howe and William Strauss, September 13, 2001)



From the New York Times, on November 25, 2001, comes word that Marc S. Lamb called the shot heard 'round T4T.com:

RECKONINGS
An Alternate Reality
By PAUL KRUGMAN


Pull quote:

"Indeed, current events bear an almost eerie resemblance to the period just after World War I. John Ashcroft is re-enacting the Palmer raids, which swept up thousands of immigrants suspected of radicalism; the vast majority turned out to be innocent of any wrongdoing, and some turned out to be U.S. citizens. Executives at Enron seem to have been channeling the spirit of Charles Ponzi. And the push to open public lands to private exploitation sounds like Teapot Dome, which also involved oil drilling on public land. Presumably this time there have been no outright bribes, but the giveaways to corporations are actually much larger."



Read, and weep, all ye of "little faith."





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc S. Lamb on 2001-11-24 21:07 ]</font>

It depends on how the citizens react to what is happening? How will civilians react to what the government is doing?

Remember that John Ashcroft is a Silent, and most of the Bush Administration is Silent, so this does not surprise me at all. But what will the citizens do about it?

The way the reporter is responding seems more indicative of a mood change. To me, this seems more like the mood of colonial America in 1675 with the start of King Philip's War, and of the questioning of the governments in both the colonies and in England of the reaction to the war, which led to Bacon's Rebellion.

I would have to question the author's definition of normalcy, as I think he contradicts himself. By giving Americans the whole picture, it will be even more impossible to return to normalcy, and even set in motion a process that could end in revolts. I think that what the author really wants is a thorough reexamination of what the government is doing, and what they should be doing. Keep in mind that this is a process that usually begins Fourth Turnings.

Another sign of 4T will be the rise of populists: http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?...&group=webcast

This editorial from the Washington Post is a very interesting sign that the 4T has arrived.


EDITORIAL ? November 24, 2001

Defeating 'the enemy within'

We hear much about "the enemy within" ? namely,
the suspected cells of Islamist terrorists and terrorist
sympathizers still believed to exist within the nation's
borders. But there is another enemy within so
entrenched it defies conventional police detection.
That enemy is political correctness.
It may explain why pro-American students standing
for "God Bless America" at Amherst College respond
to an ambush of flag-burners by denouncing the
outrage as . . . "inappropriate." Or why, on hearing a
stream of anti-American rhetoric at a University of
Hawaii anti-war rally, a lone dissenting professor
called the poisonous diatribes merely "troubling for
me." It looks as if the fear of giving offense ? PC's
primary precept ? has finally overriden the natural
reflexes of self-preservation.
But not so in the case of Zewdalem Kebede, a
senior at San Diego State University. Mr. Kebede, a
naturalized American born in Ethiopia, was studying
in a library on Sept. 22 when a nearby conversation
caught his attention. Four Saudi Arabian students
were speaking Arabic, which Mr. Kebede speaks
fluently, and discussing their pleasure at the
massacre of September 11. "They were very
pleased," Mr. Kebede later told the campus
newspaper. "They were happy. And they were
regretting missing the 'Big House.' "
When Mr. Kedebe could stand it no longer, he
approached them. "Guys, what you are talking is
unfair," he later recalled saying in Arabic. "How do
you feel when those five to 6,000 people are buried in
two or three buildings? They are the rubble or they
became ash. And you are talking about the action of
bin Laden and his group. You are proud of them. You
should have to feel shame."
A heated exchange followed, after which Mr.
Kebede finally returned to his table. End of story?
Hardly. The September 11-celebrating Saudis,
exchange students whose only regrets stem from the
continued existence of the White House (or U.S.
Capitol), reported Mr. Kebede to the campus police.
And the wheels of political correctness automatically
began to turn.
Mr. Kebede went before the university's
Orwellian-named Center for Student Rights for having
been "verbally abusive to other students." An
investigation ensued. Mr. Kebede had to meet with
what's known as a "University Judicial Officer." He got
off with a warning that threatened "severe disciplinary
sanctions" should he ever again confront "members
of the campus community in a manner . . . found to be
aggressive or abusive" ? i.e., should he ever again
express a patriotic and a moral revulsion at
carnage-crowing, terrorist sympathizers.
The warning letter went on to say, "You are
admonished to conduct yourself as a responsible
member of the campus community in the future."
There's much to say about this final outrage, but Mr.
Kebede may have put it best. "I'm naturalized
American," he told the campus newspaper. "I have
taken an oath to protect this country, so that is my part
to do ? for that I am happy. I am an honest citizen for
this country. I showed those guys there are people
who love America, who defend America. Is that a
crime?"
Mr. Kebede deserves thanks, not sanctions. And
those Saudi students deserve plane tickets home.
Maybe they can take the Center for Student Rights
with them.

As L Leavell and Kevin Parker noted, we could disagree about when the Mgen ended and the 4T began. We won't know until we move forward in time to put things in perspective. I'm happy to notice that you both recognized the gap between the ending of the Mgen and the beginning of the 4T. Some of the other posts didn't.
Wow! that Marc Lamb posting seems to make a strong point that 9-11 is similar to 1919-1920 in USA. The geneartional boundary was 1924 and the last 4T started in 1929. So, maybe the Mgen hasn't ended yet. we don't want things to happen too quickly, as they did before the Civil War.

I want to know how Marc Lamb comes up with 1919-1920 as analogous to 2001. I've heard him say this before and wondered about it. I think he's wrong. America was in the dead-center of the last 3T in 1919-1920. Heck, all the crazy 1920s pop culture hadn't even STARTED yet! There's just no way we have to wait 9 more years for the 4T to start.

Maybe he's erroneously comparing 911 with WW2 or the Flu Epidemic of 1918. Actually, these events were the "alienating events" that let Lost Nomads know once and for all that society thought less of them than other gens...thus these are far more analogous to the recession of the early 90s or the Gulf War that occurred in the early 90s--also events that affected Xers far more than other generations, and also occurred roughly halfway through this saeculum's 3T, NOT at the end!

_________________
Labels tell you where the box is coming from and where it is headed and are quite helpful. They do not tell you what's inside though they might indicate "fragile", "handle with care", "this is not a Bill", "magnetic medium", etc.--VIRGIL K. SAARI

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Susan Brombacher on 2001-11-25 16:02 ]</font>

It is too early to tell when the Millies end and the next generation begins. Even if this 4T has started early it doesn't necessarily follow that it will end earlier than S&H predicted. (Apparently some people with Silent childhoods were empowered as Heros by the tail end of WWII).