"Students spit on her mother's car at the high school. Her friends' parents wouldn't give her rides
home from school. A boy wore a T-shirt signed by many Sissonville students that read: "Go back
where you came from." "

Now THAT'S rational! Spit on the mother's car. Send them back to where they came from (America?). Deny that anarchist child (who, you never know, might be planning on blowing up the White House or the Capitol)her education. I guess those mongrels needed to do that so that they could have smaller class sizes. Maybe their education wasn't good enough and they needed more personal attention.

Speaking of education..oh, well, while our people are busy being brainwashed by natividiocy I have a really cool article about Afghan women in Pakistan who are receiving education in spite of the harsh Taliban-style fundamentalism they live under.
Training Camp of Another Kind
In Pakistan, defiant young Afghan women bent on reversing years of brutal
oppression study and plan. To them, the conflict has no good guys.

By RONE TEMPEST, Times Staff Writer

KHAIWA REFUGEE CAMP, Pakistan -- The
sprawling refugee camps on the Pakistani-Afghan
border have long been breeding grounds for male
militants in Afghanistan--first for the moujahedeen
fighters who battled the Soviet occupation in the
1980s and, more recently, for the fundamentalist
Taliban.

But here in the dusty, abused terrain of Pakistan's
northwestern frontier, the Khaiwa refugee camp is
a uniquely feminist outpost.

Women in the Khaiwa camp shun the head-to-toe
raiment known as a burka. Girls study science and
Koranic scripture in a mud-walled school and
dream of attending university. The camp's male
physician, Dr. Qaeeum, vows that his infant
daughter will be educated "from cradle to grave,
until PhD."

Khaiwa is a training ground for a different kind of
fighter: intense young women bent on reversing the
trend of female oppression that has helped hurtle
Afghanistan into a new dark age.

For the female activists based here, there are no
good guys among the factions battling for
supremacy in their homeland--not in the notorious
Taliban and not in the opposition Northern
Alliance. They worry that in the international rush
to bring down the Taliban, the United States and
its allies will form partnerships with the Northern
Alliance or with other groups that also have a
history of brutally oppressing women.

"The devil is the brother of evil. The dog is the
brother of the wolf," Khaiwa camp school
Principal Abeda Mansoor said in her native Dari
language. "We condemn both the Taliban and the
Northern Alliance."

Mansoor, a former geography teacher in
Afghanistan, is a 16-year member of the
Revolutionary Assn. of the Women of Afghanistan,
or RAWA, a small but influential rights group that
sends women on dangerous missions into Afghanistan to set up clandestine
schools for girls and to use hidden cameras to document abuse of women.
Under the Taliban's harsh version of Islam, girls cannot attend school and
women are prohibited from working outside the home.

Displayed on the association's Web site at http://www.rawa.org, secretly taken
photos and videos of public executions and floggings have played a major role
in building international opposition to the Taliban. The recent critically
acclaimed documentary "Beneath the Veil," by London-based filmmaker Saira
Shah, was made with the help of RAWA workers who escorted Shah in
Afghanistan.

In Pakistan, the group operates hospitals, schools and orphanages in the
camps where 2 million Afghan refugees live. But even here, their activities
remain mostly secret. Taliban-style fundamentalism thrives in many of the
camps. A recent RAWA human rights procession in Islamabad, the Pakistani
capital, was attacked by stick-wielding fundamentalist students.

But the Khaiwa camp, in the middle of a rutted quarry surrounded by smoking
brick kilns, is an island of tolerance. It is small and exceptional, home to only
500 families. But it is a microcosm of what Afghanistan might resemble if it
was freed of religious extremism and civil war.

Safora Wali, 30, manages the camp's small orphanage, home to 20 Afghan
girls ages 6 to 19. A former student at Kabul University in the Afghan capital,
Wali also teaches older women in the camp how to read.

"My oldest student is 45 years old," Wali said. "She's so happy now to be
able to read letters from her relatives. She told me, 'I now know the pleasure
of my eyes.' "

The Khaiwa camp was founded in the early 1980s by one of the more
enlightened moujahedeen commanders, who believed in universal education.
He allowed RAWA workers into the camp to teach and counsel the families.
The camp eventually became known as an open-minded haven for the
RAWA activists, who run the 450-student school and the orphanage.

Wali came to the camp last year from western Afghanistan after Taliban
authorities found her distributing RAWA literature and she was forced to flee.

In Afghanistan, Khaiwa is known as a place to send girls who are threatened
by either the religious restrictions of the Taliban or the sexual aggression of
Afghan warlords.

Danish, 15, said she was sent here after her father was killed by agents of the
former Communist government in Kabul. She said her mother still lives in
Afghanistan but could no longer protect her.

Like the other girls in the four-room adobe orphanage, she wants to finish high
school and reenter Afghanistan as a RAWA operative--teaching in
underground home schools.

When asked by a reporter how many of them planned to go to work for
RAWA, all but the youngest of the 20 girls raised their hands.

Women in Afghanistan have suffered a long history of repression punctuated
by brief periods of progressive leadership.

Inspired by the reforms of Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey,
self-styled King Amanullah lifted the veil of subjugation for a short period in
the late 1920s. But women in Afghan cities probably enjoyed their greatest
freedom during the Soviet-backed Communist regime that ruled in Kabul from
1979 to 1992.

RAWA was founded in the capital in 1977. But its founder, known by the
single name Meena, opposed the Soviet occupation and joined resistance
forces to fight against it. Considered an enemy by both the Communist regime
and the fundamentalist moujahedeen, Meena was assassinated in a Quetta,
Pakistan, refugee camp in 1987.

Sahar Saba, 28, who like many of the RAWA activists uses a pseudonym for
protection, grew up in one of the Quetta camps and was educated in a
RAWA school. Now she works as a spokeswoman for the group in
Islamabad and travels abroad seeking foreign support.

Saba came to Pakistan when she was 7 after the Soviet invasion of
Afghanistan. Since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the United States, she has
spent much of her time working to make sure that the U.S. and its allies do not
forget the cause of women's rights as they continue their campaign against the
Taliban.

Besides providing a well-documented history of the Taliban's suppression of
women, RAWA has recorded hundreds of cases of abuse by the Northern
Alliance and non-Taliban warlords.

Saba and the other RAWA activists favor the return of Mohammad Zaher
Shah, the former Afghan monarch who was deposed in 1973. Through the
agency of the ex-king, she says, Afghanistan could have a new leadership
tainted neither by the abuses of the warlords nor by the restrictions imposed
on women by the Taliban.

When the Taliban swept into power in 1996, it capitalized on its claim to be a
"protector of women." Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar gained fame
by rescuing two girls who had been kidnapped by a warlord. According to
Taliban lore, Omar killed the man and hanged his body from the barrel of a
tank.

"The parties that were in power before the Taliban were in some ways
worse," Saba acknowledged. "Many girls were raped. Many others
committed suicide.

"When the Taliban came to power, women were safer," she added. "But they
set the wheel of history back hundreds of years."

For information about reprinting this article, go to http://www.lats.com

To me, the blatant neo-fascism and neo (really paleo) nativism displayed by the students at the school is a definite sign that if, indeed, the 3T is over we have entered an early 4T with Thirteeners starting to play the hero role as the Gilded did in the Civil War cycle. With our Jeffersonian-type generation of heroes now in retirement and dying off, we have reaped the logical outcomes of a three-and-a-half decade exercise in self indulgence. What is really interesting is that there are strong parallels indeed with the Civil War cycle. An early Awakening, which probably occured about 10 years before it was due to occur, probably also explains why this Crisis is arriving early instead of around 2005 as it's supposed to. What's funny is how the Gilded joined nativist and "know nothing" movements around the time of Lincoln's election..all the while they were vehemently opposed to slavery. It's almost as if our nationalist tendencies may lead us in opposing Taliban-style fundamentasy and may lead the Islamic world towards a liberal renaissance of sorts in the middle of the 21st century. Not straying too far off topic, the war in Afghanistan looks less like the center of the Crisis and more like the edge of it. Afghanistan may be our "Bleeding Kansas". Certainly the Northern Alliance against the Taliban may in many ways look like Missouri or Kansas split over the slavery question. What most Americans don't realize is that this less a war between the West and Islam and more a war with Muslim against Muslim. Osama wants the West being dragged into the fight to turn this into a war of civilizations. It was once said that Americans play poker in foreign policy while the Communists played chess. Muslims apparently play Russian Roulette.

I think that the neo-nativism displayed at the West Virginia high school is still the characteristic of a 3T, since the circa-1920 Red Scare also resulted in a similar nativist backlash and new restrictions on immigration. Going back one more saeculum, the Know-Nothing anti-immigration party was in response to massive Irish immigration in the 1840's and 1850's, also 3T.

The behavior of John Ashcroft, with phone taps on lawyer-client communications and military tribunals does remind me of Mitchell Palmer's raids on Reds in 1920.

It does seem that anti-foreigner sentiment is society's way of "circling the wagons" against the approaching 4T danger, as society reacts against open border, pluralistic policies of the 2T and early 3T. Early in the 3T, pluralistic policies add excitement and diversity to society (Arab immigrants living American lives and training to be jetliner pilots in Florida and Maryland). Now that these Arab immigrants have used their newly-acquired piloting skills for maximum destruction, we will see the backlash. Unless we consider the possibility that the Red Scare of the early 1920's, not the 1929 stock market crash, was the start of the last 4T, I do not think that the 4T has begun yet. I do think that another spark occuring later in this decade will be the 4T spark. It may actually be trivial in lives lost as compared to 911, but it will probably directly affect far many more lives.

On 2001-11-28 08:33, JayN wrote:
....if indeed, the 3T is over we have entered an early 4T with Thirteeners starting to play the hero role as the Gilded did in the Civil War cycle.

I don't know how valid comparisons are with the Civil War. In 1860, you had prophets ranging in age from 40 to 70. The artist Compromiser generation was gone from the scene. Nowadays, you have prophets ranging in age from 42 to 59 and lots of 60-something Silents who are still very active in public life. Whatever is going on today, its not going to be a repeat of the Civil War.

If we compare the generational constellation of 2001, with the generational constellation of 1862, we find that in both cases, we have a Nomad generation ranging from 20 to 40 years old. It is an exact comparison. Now, for the Prophet generations to be exactly comparable like the Nomad generations, the birth year range for the Boomers would have to be 1931 to 1960, not 1943 to 1960. Many of the key officials in the Bush administration in Operation Enduring Freedom were born between 1931 and 1942. I think it is the long birthyear range of the Transcendental generation that produced the Civil War anomaly, since the old end of this generation completely pushed the Compromisers out of public life. James Buchanan, the very last Compromiser President was born in the last Compromiser birth year of 1791, and he was 70 in the year that he left office. This suggests that the Silents will remain active in the aught decade, like the Progressives did in the 1920's (but not the 1930's) and the Compromisers in the 1850's (but not the 1860's).

Joe, when you compare this year to 1862 w/r/t Xer birthyears, you should recognize that that was two years into the Crisis. So obviously we're not on quite the same track this time.


(Also, I have my doubts about 1981 as the last Xer birthyear. If it was 1979 as I suspect, then the youngest Xers are two years older than the youngest Gilded were in 1861, and four years older than the oldest Gilded when Lincoln was elected.)

On 2001-11-28 15:59, Brian Rush wrote:
Joe, when you compare this year to 1862 w/r/t Xer birthyears, you should recognize that that was two years into the Crisis. So obviously we're not on quite the same track this time.


(Also, I have my doubts about 1981 as the last Xer birthyear. If it was 1979 as I suspect, then the youngest Xers are two years older than the youngest Gilded were in 1861, and four years older than the oldest Gilded when Lincoln was elected.)

The generations don't break down that perfectly. I suspect that Millennials were being born in some parts of the United States while Xers were still being hatched in other regions.

I find myself uncertain about the exact lines, though for various reasons I actually suspect that S&H may actually have hit the marks closer in Generations than they did in T4T.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HopefulCynic68 on 2001-11-28 21:03 ]</font>

3T or 4T? Sobran detects permanent change in wake of 911:

(For info and discussion purposes only)

http://www.lewrockwell.com/sobran/sobran215.html

Doing Something
by Joseph Sobran

In order to combat terrorism, our government is cracking down on the usual suspects: us. As I was reminded last week, we are all suspected terrorists now, subject to insulting and invasive searches at airports.

At Dulles Airport I somehow set off an alarm, even after removing every key, pen, coin, and paper clip from my pockets. I had to stand with my legs spread and arms extended while a gent with a turban and a bushy beard checked hitherto private sections of my person with a metal detector. He was quite polite, but I couldn?t help reflecting to myself that he looked a bit more, well, exotic than I did. If such indignities become a routine part of air travel, pretty soon only nudists will be flying.

On my return trip I set off another alarm at O?Hare in Chicago. Once again a spread-eagle search failed to detect any deadly weapons, but this time the contents of my pockets moved the authorities to spring into action. A young official announced to me that he was confiscating two of the three cigarette lighters I was carrying. It seems there is a new Federal rule that you may carry only one lighter aboard an airplane.

I decided not to bring O?Hare to a halt by demanding an explanation of this novel rule. But I tried in vain to think of a reason. It seemed to me, and still does, that if you can hijack a plane with a cigarette lighter, one would be enough, and there would be no great advantage in having a second or third lighter. I can?t really explain why I happened to have so many lighters on me ? my pockets are always full of unsorted stuff ? but I?ve never lit two of them at the same time, and I don?t know how I?d go about lighting three of them at once. But maybe these cunning hijackers have some tricks I haven?t heard of.

Anyway, the Federal Government seized two of my cigarette lighters without even offering compensation. I?d broken a rule I?d never heard of and can?t understand, and I paid the price. This is how we live now. Do you feel safer?

I suppose the real purpose of these measures is to make us feel that the government is "doing something" about terrorism, even if what it does has no discernible relation to addressing the problem. The pettier the precaution, the greater the vigilance.

Is this also the purpose of the war on Afghanistan ? to convince us that the government is "doing something"? We are assured that the war is going well, that raining bombs on a godforsaken country is somehow having an impact on terrorism ? though the terrorists we have to worry about are already living here, know what to do, and presumably don?t need to be activated by orders from a cave in Asia.

Who cares? When it?s feelings that count, dropping bombs is an emotional release. Whether they achieve their stated goal is secondary. Some people who feel very strongly want to use nuclear weapons. That would really be "doing something."

Ordinary Americans feel that they are "doing something" by waving flags signifying their support for the government, or "the country." Some people seem to think they prove their own patriotism by impugning that of others; radio talk-show hosts display their patriotism by accusing the news media of lacking it, as if Peter Jennings were rooting for Osama bin Laden.

What it really comes to is that nobody knows what to do. We are faced not with a war in the usual sense, but with an extremely nasty sort of vandalism. It can?t conquer us, but maybe, because of its diffuse nature, we can?t conquer it either. We aren?t dealing with Hirohito, let alone Robert E. Lee. There will be no conclusive Appomattox moment when the enemy surrenders his sword and we know it?s finally over. It can go on until the last fanatic decides to devote his remaining years to collecting stamps.

And in the meantime, the government will keep cracking down on the usual suspects.

We all want desperately to return to the world we thought we were living in on September 10. But this desire may be a utopian yearning. That world no longer exists and may never exist again.

November 29, 2001

Sobran is pretending to be clueless about the need for airport security measures -- the alternative, to do nothing, is not acceptable. Yet he is right, although not too original, in indicating that the real purpose of these measures is to make us feel that the government is "doing something" about terrorism, even if what it does has no discernible relation to addressing the problem. The pettier the precaution, the greater the vigilance.

I think he's a bit off base to suggest that attacking the Taliban is idle "doing something" for "doing something"'s sake. There is a connection between removing the Taliban from power and striking a blow against a terrorist organization.

I also think he doesn't quite get that it's not that ordinary Americans feel that they are "doing something" by waving flags signifying their support for the government, or "the country." , but that it's a natural reaction after such an attack for people to rally to something long abandoned, especially during the 3T, namely the value of community and nation. This recognition of void is what in part creates turnings. For the 4T, it's the perceived lack of community and national cohesiveness, among other things.

Apparently Sobran can't handle the valid criticism of Michael Savage, so resorts to the unsatifsying riposte: Some people seem to think they prove their own patriotism by impugning that of others; radio talk-show hosts display their patriotism by accusing the news media of lacking it, as if Peter Jennings were rooting for Osama bin Laden. The point Savage (for example) makes is that the moral relativism that took root in 3T America has led to "equal time" being given by the networks to the terrorist point of view. I don't think they really do get "equal time", but the point is still valid.

The only point upon which I agree strongly with Sobran -- and I don't like agreeing with him, because he always seems to have such a mixture of remarks in a given article, which are usually not too cohesive, and many of which I find wrong or off base -- is the following:

What it really comes to is that nobody knows what to do. We are faced not with a war in the usual sense, but with an extremely nasty sort of vandalism. It can't conquer us, but maybe, because of its diffuse nature, we can?t conquer it either. We aren't dealing with Hirohito, let alone Robert E. Lee. There will be no conclusive Appomattox moment when the enemy surrenders his sword and we know it's finally over. It can go on until the last fanatic decides to devote his remaining years to collecting stamps.

Then he goes and wastes this insight by connecting to the lame theme of the article:

And in the meantime, the government will keep cracking down on the usual suspects.

Finally, another disagreement; we do NOT all want to return to the 3T, it was not "utopia", it needs a purging Crisis that has yet to arrive. The world has not changed in a 4T way, we have only the first mood-shifting catalyst, if even that. We desperately want to return to the Gary Condit interview, "Survivor", and a split country politically, with a weak economy?

We all want desperately to return to the world we thought we were living in on September 10. But this desire may be a utopian yearning. That world no longer exists and may never exist again.

The beauty of S&H is that, for participants in this forum, we weren't blind about "the world we thought we were living in". We knew that it was but part of a turning, to be followed by the 4T -- whether or not we're in it yet.

Would JayN please explain why the Awakening came 10 years early?

[quote]
On 2001-11-26 23:26, madscientist wrote:

The 911 attacks is pushing America into a 4T. The generations are being forced into their 4T roles. Millie teens are being pushed into a Crisis era Hero role, Xers have completed their transition into midlife, and Boomers are being forced into old age. Boomers are becoming both the Christians and New Age Evangelists that are finally relinquishing their youth.

One test for society will come in November 2002 with the congressional elections.

You left out the Silent generation. They are the ones keeping us in the 3T and not letting us enter the 4T. That's a good thing. 37% of federal gov. are Silent gen. the next election will push more of them out. Then the Silent will be filling their role.
Richard

Richard Turnock wrote, "You left out the Silent generation."

Isn't that the life story of the Silent generation, eh? :smile:

But seriously, I think the final clue to whether or not we've entered the 4T will be the elections of 2004. I'm willing to bet that the Silent in positions of governmental power melt away, much like the Compromisers in 1860.

4T indicators-

instead of: start:
downplay problems exaggerate them
deferring solutions accelerate them
tolerating diversity demand consensus
minimal sacrifice warn of maximal sacrifice

Past value struggles in 4T were:
commerce vs. citizenship
liberty vs. equality
capitalism vs. socialism

Current themes in society, education, and news reports support the S&H theme for the next 4T:
Individual vs. community
personal choice vs. social responsibility
consumerism vs. sustainability
special interests vs. community needs

Leaders who know how to empower individuals toward achieving community aims and goals will succeed. (paraphrased from 4T book)

We are practicing local initiatives to reshape society. We are preparing organizations for the push at the national level during the 4T to support the shift from individual to community. It's not here yet.
Richard

Enron - an example of the future devaluation coming for the economy. Surprised everyone. Was a stock forecast to go to $126 from $80. Instead they went from $80 in February to less than a $1 today. Zero interest loans and cars selling for less than they did a year ago is another example. Fed lowering interest rates and not being able to stop the recession. Interest rates have bounced back up as the market forecasts a recovery in 2002. This will make things worse and the deflation and devaluation will come as a surprise and hit hard. But when?

On 2001-11-29 13:13, Richard Turnock wrote:

Enron - an example of the future devaluation coming for the economy. Surprised everyone. Was a stock forecast to go to $126 from $80. Instead they went from $80 in February to less than a $1 today. Zero interest loans and cars selling for less than they did a year ago is another example. Fed lowering interest rates and not being able to stop the recession. Interest rates have bounced back up as the market forecasts a recovery in 2002. This will make things worse and the deflation and devaluation will come as a surprise and hit hard. But when?

Perhaps in 2005, when the leading-edge ('43)Boomers start retiring early at age 62, and when the first large Boomer cohort ('46) begins cashing out their IRAs.

On 2001-11-28 21:01, HopefulCynic68 wrote:

Also, I have my doubts about 1981 as the last Xer birthyear. If it was 1979 as I suspect, then the youngest Xers are two years older than the youngest Gilded were in 1861, and four years older than the oldest Gilded when Lincoln was elected.)

I agree with you about 1979-1980 being the last Xer year, rather than 1981. Especially in light of 911 (if indeed this is the 4T, and I believe it is), the boundary between Millies and Xers would shift back a couple of years since the turning changed sooner than predicted. I am not so sure about the boundary between Xers and Boomers, however, as established adults in their early 40s (those born in the S&H-defined last Boomer years) can't suddenly "morph" into Xers at such a late age, while younger Xers (who are in their early 20s) may be malleable enough to morph into Millies. Late 50s and 1960 cohorts may, however, take on a Nomad role in the Crisis rather than a Prophet one, though they won't actually *become* Nomads.

The generations don't break down that perfectly. I suspect that Millennials were being born in some parts of the United States while Xers were still being hatched in other regions.

Amen. It surprises me that S&H haven't given more attention to the geographical factor. Different regions of the country enter turnings before others, sometimes with gaps as long as ten years or so, and therefore babies born at exactly the same time could actually be different generations. A person born from, say, 1957-1960 and raised in a progressive city like New York City or San Francisco, where the Awakening started much sooner, may be more like an Xer than a Boomer and have had a more Nomadic upbringing, while someone, say, from the rural South or Midwest, who was born as late as 1965 or 1966, may act more like a Boomer than an Xer. (those born from 1967 on are definitely Xers, though, no matter where they're from). I have lived in both NYC and in rural NC, and I have often found this to be the case.

_________________
Labels tell you where the box is coming from and where it is headed and are quite helpful. They do not tell you what's inside though they might indicate "fragile", "handle with care", "this is not a Bill", "magnetic medium", etc.--VIRGIL K. SAARI

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Susan Brombacher on 2001-11-29 19:08 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Susan Brombacher on 2001-11-29 19:10 ]</font>

Richard Turnock writes, "We are practicing local initiatives to reshape society. We are preparing organizations for the push at the national level during the 4T to support the shift from individual to community. It's not here yet. "

That we are practicing any initiatives at all to reshape society, or even trying to shift from individual to community signifies that the 4T catalyst has sparked. Otherwise we'd still be focused on Britney's belly button and Condit's denials, not to mention how much Michael Jackson may make on his current CD. Entertainment has shifted focus, and people in communities are at the very least pretending to show patriotism and community spirit (even if they don't quite know what to do or what is "appropriate". If we were still in 3T, "Collateral Damage" and "Big Trouble" would have been released after maybe a couple of weeks' delay. Please don't confuse the catalyst with the regeneracy of the 4T...the last time, it took four years of fumbling around for the mood to jell to the point that the US had national focus on what needed to be done to begin to move through the crisis.

I recall reading an article by Arthur C. Clark concerning the speed of change. He pointed out that some aspects of society-politics, for example-can change quite rapidly. (911 as a catalyst? With perhaps four years to the regeneracy?). However, with infrastructure, when vast amounts of material and money are involved, significant change can take decades. With resource shortages we will need years for significant change even with a determined effort. If "Rosie the Riveter" should be a key role then the Crisis may last long enough for a full length Civic generation, even though mostly Nomads are filling the Civic role now.

I'll make two predictions here:


First, you will see this headline soon...
<HTML>
<FONT SIZE="+3"><center>U.S. Kills Bin Laden;</FONT></center>
<FONT SIZE="+1"><center>Clinton Claims Credit</FONT></center></HTML>


Second, we will do this in the USA...
EU considers plans to outlaw racism



And I bet that Mr. Patton will even cheer! :smile:






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc S. Lamb on 2001-11-30 08:02 ]</font>

On 2001-11-30 07:56, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

Second, we will do this in the USA...
EU considers plans to outlaw racism

And I bet that Mr. Patton will even cheer! :smile:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Whether someone is a racist or not is none of my business. That is what free speech means and it is my choice whether to associate with the racist or not. On the other hand, when government discriminates on the basis of race, it then becomes my business. Justice is supposed to be blind and government is supposed to be impartial. But government is not supposed to dictate what views an individual can hold privately.

I don't think that EU measure is going to become European law. It has to be unanimously approved by all members. That seems very unlikely, considering that it adopted the most restrictive ordinance of its kind in any EU member (Germany's -- understandably so in light of Germany's past), rather than striking a compromise somewhere.

Americans have mostly returned to way of life

Surprise: Americans did not panic after Sept. 11, were not driven by revenge in pursuing a war on terrorism and have largely returned to normal lives.

That was the consensus Tuesday among pollsters and analysts who have studied dozens of surveys since the terrorist attacks.

Public confidence in government has grown and support for a broader, multilateral war on terrorism persists, though that may diminish if Osama Bin Laden is eliminated, several analysts said at a symposium sponsored by the Gallup Poll.

But Americans are not expressing a fundemental shift in attitudes or activities, according to several polls. One Gallup poll showed that immmediately after the attacks, 36 per cent of those polled said they were changing some aspect of their lives in response to terrorism. By early October, 27 percent said they were making changes while 73 percent said they were not.

In the immediate aftermath of the attacks, 71 percent said they felt "depressed" about the events, but that was down to 29 percent by mid-October.

The public is not overly concerned about the threat of anthrax, for example, despite large-scale news coverage of the bacteria in the mail.

Salt Lake Tribune Nov. 28

Still 3 T. The support for the government is similar to the patriotic response during the Gulf War.

On 2001-11-29 23:59, L Leavell wrote:
..... Please don't confuse the catalyst with the regeneracy of the 4T...the last time, it took four years of fumbling around for the mood to jell to the point that the US had national focus on what needed to be done to begin to move through the crisis.

Interesting idea, let's go down this trail further. So, what is being regenerated? Institutions, mental models, behaviors, attitudes, business, schools? Where is the evidence of regeneration?

K-12 Schools have been in the process of regeneration for the past decade. Or maybe what we thought was reform was nothing compared to what we will do in the next four years.

The Federal gov. is regenerating the INS is this an example? What others are an example?

This is fun!
Richard

On 2001-11-30 12:31, Richard Turnock wrote:

On 2001-11-29 23:59, L Leavell wrote:
..... Please don't confuse the catalyst with the regeneracy of the 4T...the last time, it took four years of fumbling around for the mood to jell to the point that the US had national focus on what needed to be done to begin to move through the crisis.

Interesting idea, let's go down this trail further. So, what is being regenerated? Institutions, mental models, behaviors, attitudes, business, schools? Where is the evidence of regeneration?

K-12 Schools have been in the process of regeneration for the past decade. Or maybe what we thought was reform was nothing compared to what we will do in the next four years.

The Federal gov. is regenerating the INS is this an example? What others are an example?

This is fun!
Richard

Okay, try this, Mr. Turnock. Read the book, particularly the morphology of crisis eras on page 256. I'm using a specific term in the same specific way the authors used it, and I won't play word games with a Clintonesque Boomer. We haven't reached the regeneracy yet, and probably won't for some time to come. Meanwhile, it won't be clear what set or sets of post-Awakening ideals will dominate. It's a lot like having a lock and a bunch of keys. Many will be tried before one opens the door to let you to the other side.