New book claims that Hitler liked to take it up the butt. 3T or 4T? :lol:

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2059222

The AFL-CIO shows its muscle: http://www.workingforchange.com/arti...m?ItemId=12456

<font color="blue">
On the work front
AFL-CIO calling for a renewal of vigorous, partisan politics
By Marc Cooper / The Nation
12.05.01 | LAS VEGAS -- The AFL-CIO has opened its 24th Biennial Convention here in the glitzy neon heart of this very unionized Sin City, but Big Labor's mood is anything but frivolous. Looming in the lobby of the Paris Hotel Convention Center is a mammoth wall listing the hundreds of names of union workers incinerated in the September 11 attacks.

The dark clouds of that day still shadow the work of the 13 million-member labor federation. "America's Workers: Heroes Every Day" is the official motto of the five-day gathering. And while the Administration has called upon Americans to respond to the emergency by flooding the shopping malls, the AFL-CIO calls instead for a renewal of vigorous, partisan politics on behalf of those same American working families, now threatened by a deepening economic recession and by an empowered and emboldened conservative White House.

"We are engaged in fighting two wars," AFL-CIO president John Sweeney told The Nation. "We stand with President Bush in fighting the war against terrorism. And we stand opposed to him as we fend off a war against workers. This is the most antiworker administration in recent times."

Urging its membership to re-engage the domestic political fight, the federation began its deliberations on Sunday with a pre-convention, daylong Conference on Civil and Human Rights. Hundreds of labor delegates and invited political activists crammed a standing-room-only ballroom to chart the federation's political plan going into next year's mid-term Congressional elections. "It's like the old union song 'Which Side Are You On?'"

said federation vice president Linda Chavez-Thompson in a rousing kick-off speech. "And the labor movement is on the side of human rights, on the side of affirmative action, on the side of families being able to earn a living wage and to organize a union."

In the short term, labor is mobilizing to defeat the Bush Administration's push for presidential fast-track trade negotiating authority as well as the House version of the so-called "economic stimulus" package, derided by a long list of conference speakers as little more than a bottomless hope chest of corporate welfare. Sweeney called the package "an insult."

Activists also promised a fight against a number of White House nominations to the federal judiciary. But the AFL-CIO's sights were trained mostly on two big issues: election and immigration reform.

"Election reform is simply the number-one civil rights issue of the 107th Congress," said conference keynote speaker Wade Henderson, head of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights. Henderson said the most comprehensive legislative proposal in that regard is the so-called Dodd-Conyers bill, which the AFL-CIO helped develop. Such measures are required, he said, to thwart any repeat of last year's prolonged vote-counting fiasco in Florida.

Dodd-Conyers has garnered fifty-one sponsors in the Senate, but that's not enough. A 60-40 margin is required to stop any oppositional Republican filibuster. "Dodd-Conyers is dead," said Harvard Law professor Christopher Edley Jr., who also addressed the conference. "The Democrats just don't have enough votes to pass it." But Edley expressed confidence that a more moderate measure, known as Ney-Hoyer, not only has a good chance of being adopted but will also go a long way -- if not all the way -- in guaranteeing a more equitable election system. "I believe we are winning on this issue," Edley said as he warned against labor "overstating" its criticism of the bill.

Where labor's victory seems less certain is on the thorny issue of immigration reform, the focus of the conference's afternoon sessions. In February 2000 the executive council of the AFL-CIO pushed aside decades of labor's nativist reflexes by endorsing a general amnesty of undocumented workers and by pushing immigration reform to the top of the federation agenda. It wasn't only the right and ethical thing to do, Hotel and Restaurant Employees president John Wilhelm told the conference; it was also a matter of labor's own survival. "Virtually every union in our movement is now trying to organize," he said. "And what we found is that there isn't one industry in America, not one city, not one town, not one hamlet that doesn't have immigrant workers."

The AFL-CIO political push for fairer immigration policies built over the course of a year of organizing and lobbying and reached its peak the first week of this past September, when President Bush met with Mexican President Vicente Fox with the amnesty issue at the top of the agenda. "But then came September 11," says Wilhelm, who now chairs the federation's internal committee on immigration. That committee met in November, Wilhelm said, and found a "passion for the fight" against the anti-immigrant "backlash" that has ensued since the September 11 attacks. "The bad news is the backlash," he said. "The good news is that the labor movement is going to jump-start this national debate once again."

For starters, a resolution endorsing the battle for liberalization of immigration policies will be put before the assembly of convention delegates later this week. It's expected to pass easily. As a second step, the AFL-CIO is also helping to draft a bill to be carried by friendly Democrats as early as next month that would grant federal benefits to the survivors of undocumented workers killed in the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks. From there, the federation plans to renew its full-blown campaign for major overhaul and some form of legalization of the millions who now work in the United States with no official status or documentation.

Union officials recognize that it will be a tough, uncertain fight. Not only because of anti-immigrant sentiments riled by September 11 but also because periods of economic recession usually contribute to the nativist impulse.

While the outcome of the fight is difficult to predict, there seemed to be no lack of willingness or passion to join the fray at the convention. The nearly 1,000 attendees were brought to their feet cheering, clapping and hooting when Clayola Brown, vice president of the clothing and textile workers' union UNITE, shouted to the crowd: "They say if you say anything against the government you are unpatriotic. Well, I say George W. Bush is the same sucker today as he was before September 11!"

</font>

__________________________________________________ _____
Posted: 2001-09-21 14:33 By Marc Lamb

DOW: WORST DROP SINCE DEPRESSION

Needless to say, this headline will be added to the current mantra of those among us that believe we be 4T: PROOF!, they will say.

Bah!, I say. The days ahead are gonna be rough, there can be no doubting that. Most likely, except for those among us that were children back in 1933, the days ahead are probably gonna prove to be the most difficult we have ever faced in our collective lives here in America.

__________________________________________________ _____

That statement, so soon after 911, was more guts than anything. Nevertheless, I was very confident in those dark days that America was going to overcome this, and bounce back.

This may well be an important milestone toward reaching that goal:

Dow Breaks Above 10,000 Mark

:smile:

On 2001-12-05 11:30, Marc S. Lamb wrote:


__________________________________________________ _____
Posted: 2001-09-21 14:33 By Marc Lamb

DOW: WORST DROP SINCE DEPRESSION

Needless to say, this headline will be added to the current mantra of those among us that believe we be 4T: PROOF!, they will say.

Bah!, I say. The days ahead are gonna be rough, there can be no doubting that. Most likely, except for those among us that were children back in 1933, the days ahead are probably gonna prove to be the most difficult we have ever faced in our collective lives here in America.

__________________________________________________ _____

That statement, so soon after 911, was more guts than anything. Nevertheless, I was very confident in those dark days that America was going to overcome this, and bounce back.

This may well be an important milestone toward reaching that goal:

Dow Breaks Above 10,000 Mark

:smile:

This has been a puzzle for me. Even thought Wall Street is doing relatively well, recall that the economy is still in a deepening recession.

3T or 4T? This one goes out to Marc Lamb. Please do not read this anywhere near mealtime or if you happen to be drinking a dairy product:


(For info and education [guffaw] purposes only)

uk.news.yahoo.com/011205/80/ckkyo.html

Seven vials of semen forms art show

CALGARY, Alberta (Reuters) - So this is art -- for seven days Mexican performance artist Israel Mora ejaculated, in private, into seven glass vials.

After this and presumably after Mora, 33, had rested, the vials of semen were put in a white, refrigerated box, and strung up for exhibit between two trees at the Banff Centre, a cultural institution in the Rocky Mountain resort of Banff.

Titled "Level 7", the exhibit has been on display for the past six days. Thursday is the seventh, and last, day.

Banff Centre spokeswoman Connie MacDonald said the performance is part of Mora's seven-week residency. The cost, about C$4,000 (1,800 pounds), is being picked up by the centre and the Mexican government. The residency, called "SloMo", has time as its theme and a number of artists are involved.

Mora's cooler bears the label: "Warning: Contains 6 ml of semen extracted through masturbation, distributed among seven glass tubes."

MacDonald said the exhibit had gone mobile one day as Mora "did an walk downtown with his cooler as part of the performance. (The temperature) was about minus 25, and a group of artists from the centre went along with him, and he was fairly discreet and he wasn't trying to make a big show."

The vials represent the cycle of life in Mora's family.

"'Level 7' aims to examine the concepts of privacy and intimacy within contemporary society," the centre says.

Sherri Zickefoose, editor at Banff's Crag and Canyon newspaper, said the exhibit hasn't caused much of a fuss in town, a ski destination at this time of year. "Everybody knows about it but nobody is saying much."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stonewall Patton on 2001-12-05 18:59 ]</font>

This really isn't fourth turning or third turning. Not everything in a fourthturning is culturally clean. Not everything in a third turning is culturally "dirty".
Having seen pictures of elephants and giraffes "doin' their thing" on the Discovery channel's science shows...well, leme just put it this way...if kids can see this stuff on TV it don't take no genius to guess what's goin on in the bedroom. By the same token the guy did "do himself" in private. Is it really a big deal? I think what really separates the 4T from the 3T is that our livelihoods and our very lives are in danger so we don't ahve time to worry about this. If some guy wants to express his stuff..well, more power to him. I just don't want to see the government passing a law preventing us from seeing it on the Internet. That's the real worry. This happened five short years ago under a comparatively liberal president who was busy sharing his fluff with Monica.
I don't know but I do know that with the GOP in power and its religious right wing having considerable influence right now we may see something like that. But there's always hope.
GI's pinned up pictures of hot chics in their bombers and whatnot. Of course they weren't usually naked but maybe some pictures of them were. I wasn't alive back then but I have heard of this. Anyone know anything else about porno in "The Good War"?

On 2001-12-05 11:33, madscientist wrote:
This has been a puzzle for me. Even thought Wall Street is doing relatively well, recall that the economy is still in a deepening recession.

I think it might have to do with spending, 3T economies have high spending rates by customers and high borrowing and low savings. When a 4T comes the mood changes and people are saving up more and spending less. That might explain the economic downturn in the USA and the healthy growth in Australia, our saeculum moods differs and that affects the economy, Australia being late 3T and the USA being ealy 4T in mood.

Is the pope catholic?

Does a bear do its business in the woods?

Do green frogs croak at night?

Does Pat Robertson hate witchcraft?

Yesterday, after nearly an hour of watching Pat and his wet nurses haranguing Harry Potter, I forgot all about bin Laden. Yes, HP?s in the public schools now, wickedly, while the kids can?t even say a modest prayer in the classroom to save their Christian souls.

Remember back in the last 3T, how the religious right scorned America?s fascination with Mah-Jongg? Heathen sorcerers from Asia! And then came Pearl Harbor.

Kung!

On 2001-12-06 06:34, Croaker'39 wrote:

Remember back in the last 3T, how the religious right scorned America?s fascination with Mah-Jongg? Heathen sorcerers from Asia! And then came Pearl Harbor.

Kung!

That's interesting. I never knew Mah-Jongg had anything to do with the "occult."

Of course, I learned how to play it from the same people who taught me that other "evil" game, Dungeons and Dragons.

Uh-oh....

Kiff '61

_________________
My GenX Credo (after Strauss and Howe, "13th Gen"):

1. Do the dirty work.
2. Have a little fun
3. Help the kids behind me.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kiff '61 on 2001-12-06 07:00 ]</font>

Osama bin Laden, the anti-spokesperson? 3T or 4T? :lol:

http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,40191,00.html

Here is a question, does this article analysing Australia's current mood, remind you of the USA around say 1998/1999?


Overflowing good cheer, Cup to box

By Dennis Shanahan, Political editor

December 07, 2001
ON November 6, Ethereal won the 141st Melbourne Cup. The little mare wasn't to know it but she also won the federal election for John Howard. Although many credit the Tampa drama as the symbol of racism, uncertainty and fear that delivered victory to Howard for his third term, the New Zealand mare represents a less fashionable but equally arguable symbol of victory. One represents the negative aspect of the campaign; the other, the less-examined positive aspect.


Advertisement


There is no doubt border security, sovereignty and an emphasis on asylum-seekers and the war against terror played a crucial part in the Coalition victory. Howard's safe hands and declaration that Australia will decide who shares our land resonated deeply in a community that had been concerned about illegal entry for more than a year, during which time Labor did not develop an immigration policy.

But there has been too much emphasis given to the dark side of the Australian psyche, xenophobia and simple racism in the analysis of the election campaign and not enough to far more difficult to define strains of leadership, competence and economic security.

Despite the Hitlerian comparisons, moral outrage and threats to leave the country by frustrated Labor supporters, there was for months before the election and during the campaign a strong optimism in the community. There still is; it is palpable, undeniable and keeping Australia afloat economically in times of worldwide uncertainty.

Resentment towards the bipartisan border protection issue, the detention of asylum-seekers and the turning aside of the Tampa still simmers. So does a general feeling of wellbeing, economic security and a satisfaction at living in the "best country in the world" ? a Howard phrase that is creeping into advertising, letters pages, radio and sports commentary.

It may be shockingly complacent, based on materialism and a certain smug patriotism, but that it exists cannot be denied and has to be considered as a factor in political and economic management.

A general feeling of wellbeing is driving retail sales ahead of a Christmas shopping boom and optimistic home buyers are taking advantage of low interest rates hand over fist.

A stampede of Howard haters out of the country doesn't appear to have slowed the economic growth and there are signs of a terrible ? guilt-free ? comfort and relaxation. Even lunches and dinners out don't seem to have suffered as sulking Labor losers take to an internal exile and a diet of bread and water.

This is the contradiction at the core of Australia's present self-image. There is much public hand-wringing about our attitudes as a nation, appeals to international arbiters and self-flagellation for returning Howard to the Lodge, yet more than 80 per cent of the electorate supported parties with a policy of turning aside illegal immigrants.

More than 80 per cent of the electorate also supported parties that campaigned on the basis of maintaining budget surpluses, low interest rates and job creation. Here is the nub of the argument over what was the dominant issue in the election.

Liberal Party federal director Lynton Crosby has declared that economic management was more important than the asylum-seekers issue when people cast their votes.

ALP national secretary Geoff Walsh argued the opposite. In simple terms, Walsh said Howard and the Coalition saw the Tampa as an opportunity, played the race card for all it was worth, divided the Australian community and damaged our international reputation.

"In August . . . Howard's boat came in. The 213th boatload of asylum-seekers arrived in circumstances [that] would allow him to demonstrate his credentials on this explosive issue," Walsh said at the National Press Club.

"Most importantly, it allowed Howard to win back One Nation votes without ever having to publicly broker a deal with Pauline Hanson. Now, whatever analysis people want to advance for the November 10 result, the impact and intensity of the Tampa issue cannot be denied."

TO be fair to both professional party men, Crosby didn't say the economy was the only issue but he promoted the positive aspects of economic management and the more complicated view of what leadership and security meant, over racism. Walsh recognised the importance of economic management and Labor's refusal to adapt as Howard fought back from an impossible position in February-March to being in the race by May-June.

"The Budget was exhibit A in this strategy to buy back the votes that had been lost by a lazy and complacent government. Much of this has now been overshadowed by more dramatic events and much has been forgotten," Walsh said.

Indeed much has been forgotten. Which brings us back to the Caulfield-Melbourne Cup winner, the lovely Ethereal. In the final week of the election campaign, Labor still had one slim hope of victory ? a grumpy Victoria.

Victoria, where One Nation polled worst and the republic best, resented the Howard Government and the asylum-seeker stand more than most. There were enough marginal seats in Victoria to almost deliver victory to Kim Beazley as long as the other states held.

Then, on the night of the first Tuesday in November, Ethereal's victory symbolised a change of heart. Polling showed Victoria was joining the optimists after a day at the races.

Liberal Party pollster Mark Textor sent Crosby a note on Wednesday after evaluating the Tuesday night polling, written on a piece of green paper. It was Textor's signed prediction of the election result: "Coalition victory with a majority of 10 to 14 seats."

People weren't standing at the winning post urging Howard on but they were backing a safe bet ? and are now prepared to spend their winnings.

YOUR FEEDBACK

Dennis Shanahan correctly points to the quiet confidence that Australians have developed in recent years - post-East Timor deployment, Asian economic crisis and the Olympics. Labor's 4Rs (rollback, refugees, republic and reconciliation) were all negative. Labor wanted to reshape the GST after it had been implemented more or less smoothly; have a bet each way on refugees; impose a republic on an Australia that likes Australia the way it is; and support a "sorry" mentality that promotes black arm band history.
Noel Hadjimichael
Camden NSW

Big Business is screwing us over royally. Good statements, Kevin and Stonewall.

I just did an interview with a woman who is fighting the lumber companies. A mill owner bought up property near her home in the Santa Cruz Mountains and will proceed to log steep hillsides of rare old growth CA redwoods using military helicopters, ruining her community's water supply and killing an endangered species, with the Governor's full cooperation because the timber industry paid him $130,000 for his campaign. Similar things are happening statewide.

Our government has been largely sold to the business interests, and doesn't look out for us unless we insist that it does so.

Read more about it if you choose:
http://www.lompicocreek.org

Osama's nukes being sought.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=25588

<HTML><FONT SIZE="+1"><center>Why America Remains in the Third Turn</FONT></center></HTML>

The constant reminder that America still belongs to Silent Elders--firmly entrenched across the entire national leadership spectrum at a whopping 37.5%--has done little to convince anyone, posting in these threads, that America remains in a third turn despite 9/11.

Not even the authors, and creators of the very term, "third turn," are convinced that this is the case.

The reasons this is the case are as many as they are varied. Nevertheless, I never cease to be puzzled, and somewhat surprised by it. This, S&H, cycle theory is great and testable in real time, imho. Why not test it? If there is such a thing called a 'third turn,' then there is qualified reason why. Granted, the science of it is somewhat dubious; but we do have the capacity to reason don't we?

Thus I submit that any reasonable person must conclude, as do I, Eldership, as defined by S&H (not super elders) in America belongs to, and is owned by a generation born and raised in our previous fourth turn, and they are called the Silent generation.

More evidence to the incredible impact this unseen generation can make on the very direct this country takes, comes from Dallas, Texas this morning:

Jeffords changed history

Mr CARL P. LEUBSDORF, of the The Dallas Morning News, writes;
"But it is clear that the Vermont lawmaker's* decision last spring to abandon the Republican Party and give Democrats control of the Senate was one of the year's most significant political events. It may rank second only to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in terms of its impact on U.S. domestic and international policy."


Ok, times up... close thy mind again. 'Yes Viginia, we are in the fourth turn.' :smile:


* Note: Jimmy Jeffords is a Silent.






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc S. Lamb on 2001-12-08 09:14 ]</font>

On 2001-12-07 21:40, Eric A Meece wrote:
Big Business is screwing us over royally. Good statements, Kevin and Stonewall.

I just did an interview with a woman who is fighting the lumber companies. A mill owner bought up property near her home in the Santa Cruz Mountains and will proceed to log steep hillsides of rare old growth CA redwoods using military helicopters, ruining her community's water supply and killing an endangered species, with the Governor's full cooperation because the timber industry paid him $130,000 for his campaign. Similar things are happening statewide.

Our government has been largely sold to the business interests, and doesn't look out for us unless we insist that it does so.

I have considerable faith in big business Eric.

Because the 'blood sucking' business elite has driven so much technological and social progress, the consolidation of the land into large estates in England during the 17th century, led to the Industrial revolution in the late 18th and early 19th century, because most of the agricultural population was in so-called 'wage slavery', they could be easily recuirted by industrial bosses to work in their factories. Basically the choice was that or starve, England went through the Industrial revolution earlier than rest of Europe.

Usually the freest economy, the one with the most minimal regulation and maximum openness is the one that is richer and gives more living standards to it's people, so they can focus on things like the Environment, Australia is a poorer nation because it has been regulated too much via protectionism in the last 100 years and not encouraged a open free economy. Hence Australia's attuides to the environment are shocking because we need the money to pay out way in the world and do not care what we do to the environment in the process, America being a far richer country can afford to treat the environment with respect. The third world treats it's environment so poorly, because it can't afford to do otherwise.

On 2001-12-08 09:59, Tristan Jones wrote:

On 2001-12-07 21:40, Eric A Meece wrote:
Big Business is screwing us over royally. Good statements, Kevin and Stonewall.

I just did an interview with a woman who is fighting the lumber companies. A mill owner bought up property near her home in the Santa Cruz Mountains and will proceed to log steep hillsides of rare old growth CA redwoods using military helicopters, ruining her community's water supply and killing an endangered species, with the Governor's full cooperation because the timber industry paid him $130,000 for his campaign. Similar things are happening statewide.

Our government has been largely sold to the business interests, and doesn't look out for us unless we insist that it does so.

I have considerable faith in big business Eric.

Because the 'blood sucking' business elite has driven so much technological and social progress, the consolidation of the land into large estates in England during the 17th century, led to the Industrial revolution in the late 18th and early 19th century, because most of the agricultural population was in so-called 'wage slavery', they could be easily recuirted by industrial bosses to work in their factories. Basically the choice was that or starve, England went through the Industrial revolution earlier than rest of Europe.

Usually the freest economy, the one with the most minimal regulation and maximum openness is the one that is richer and gives more living standards to it's people, so they can focus on things like the Environment, Australia is a poorer nation because it has been regulated too much via protectionism in the last 100 years and not encouraged a open free economy. Hence Australia's attuides to the environment are shocking because we need the money to pay out way in the world and do not care what we do to the environment in the process, America being a far richer country can afford to treat the environment with respect. The third world treats it's environment so poorly, because it can't afford to do otherwise.

True. However, distrust of Big Business is not just a problem of the environment. Many Americans are fearing that Big Business is dismantling democracy here in America. Not only that, there is a rising fear that we are doing the same thing the Roman Empire did millennia ago, which was the abandon the republic during times of war.

Americans are a libertarian bunch. We are a constitution-worshipping, trigger-happy populace. You can probably see why Americans are becoming very distrusting of big business.

And to make matters worse, since 1999, corporations have grabbed more and more power. With the crash of Nasdaq in March 2000, corporations gabbed even more power and influence, as they tried to guard the loss of money. Since 9/11, corporations have grabbed even more power. And with leaks of information accusing Bush of fighting the war in Afghanistan over oil, this creates even more distrust of big business.

So while environmentalism is one cause of distrust of corporations, it is the fear of losing a democracy run by the people to a corporate oligarchy.

On 2001-12-08 09:59, Tristan Jones wrote:
Usually the freest economy, the one with the most minimal regulation and maximum openness is the one that is richer and gives more living standards to it's people, so they can focus on things like the Environment, Australia is a poorer nation because it has been regulated too much via protectionism in the last 100 years and not encouraged a open free economy. Hence Australia's attuides to the environment are shocking because we need the money to pay out way in the world and do not care what we do to the environment in the process, America being a far richer country can afford to treat the environment with respect. The third world treats it's environment so poorly, because it can't afford to do otherwise.

If the "freest economies" truly existed, regulations would not allow for the infrastructure to be developed in the first place. Most infrastruture is created by government initially, an infrastructure that big industry depends on. It's quite ironic that industry calls for the elimination of government regs while at the same time they know that their sucking endlessly on the teat. Forest Service, the logging industry and federally-funded public land road construction is an perfect example of that symbiosis.

Tristan, most third world economies are satellite to the USA. Multinational corps based in the US and other developed nations seed the world with unregulated industries and exploit the world's resourses. That said, there is no forceable solution to this paradox. But hope remains. Once the fuel disappears, the environment will clean itself up. The fuel is oil; but the fuel is mostly intangible: greed, loneliness, hate, and fear.

For me, true Faith is in God's methods: Feedback loops exist and nature moderates the self-destructive tendencies of Mankind (i.e. rain falls on fire.)


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dave'71 on 2001-12-08 10:31 ]</font>

Dave said:

Luckily feedback loops exist and nature moderates the self-destructive tendencies of Mankind (i.e. rain falls on fire.)

Well, that's true. But in view of the fact that those "feedback loops" consist of famine and plague, together with wars over resource shortages, culminating (in a worst-case scenario) in an ecological collapse, mass extinction, and wholesale destruction of civilization (with or without actual extinction of our species), I think we might, strictly from a humanistic (rather than an environmentalist) perspective, want to create a different solution.


We are the most intelligent animal species on the planet, and are capable of projecting the results of our own collective behavior and altering that behavior to forestall disaster. We ought to do so.

On 2001-12-08 10:26, Dave'71 wrote:

On 2001-12-08 09:59, Tristan Jones wrote:
Usually the freest economy, the one with the most minimal regulation and maximum openness is the one that is richer and gives more living standards to it's people, so they can focus on things like the Environment, Australia is a poorer nation because it has been regulated too much via protectionism in the last 100 years and not encouraged a open free economy. Hence Australia's attuides to the environment are shocking because we need the money to pay out way in the world and do not care what we do to the environment in the process, America being a far richer country can afford to treat the environment with respect. The third world treats it's environment so poorly, because it can't afford to do otherwise.

If the "freest economies" truly existed, regulations would not allow for the infrastructure to be developed in the first place. Most infrastruture is created by government initially, an infrastructure that big industry depends on. It's quite ironic that industry calls for the elimination of government regs while at the same time they know that their sucking endlessly on the teat. Forest Service, the logging industry and federally-funded public land road construction is an perfect example of that symbiosis.

Tristan, most third world economies are satellite to the USA. Multinational corps based in the US and other developed nations seed the world with unregulated industries and exploit the world's resourses. That said, there is no forceable solution to this paradox. But hope remains. Once the fuel disappears, the environment will clean itself up. The fuel is oil; but the fuel is mostly intangible: greed, loneliness, hate, and fear.

For me, true Faith is in God's methods: Feedback loops exist and nature moderates the self-destructive tendencies of Mankind (i.e. rain falls on fire.)


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dave'71 on 2001-12-08 10:31 ]</font>

In the 3T, people actually made distinctions between government and business as being separate entities. Today, however, it is hard to made the difference, as there is so much corporate power.

On 2001-12-08 08:59, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

<HTML><FONT SIZE="+1"><center>Why America Remains in the Third Turn</FONT></center></HTML>

The constant reminder that America still belongs to Silent Elders--firmly entrenched across the entire national leadership spectrum at a whopping 37.5%--has done little to convince anyone, posting in these threads, that America remains in a third turn despite 9/11.

Not even the authors, and creators of the very term, "third turn," are convinced that this is the case.

The reasons this is the case are as many as they are varied. Nevertheless, I never cease to be puzzled, and somewhat surprised by it. This, S&H, cycle theory is great and testable in real time, imho. Why not test it?

Yes, use the numbers to test it. One calculation I haven't seen here is the numbers for the percentage of each generation in a phase of life over time. If someone started with the 2000 census of age versus population and converted the data to percentages of each generation in a phase of life then added a year, recalculated the numbers and had a table of values to graph. It would look like a sin wave of increasing percentage up to 100 percent and then decreasing as a generation moved through a phase of life.

Elderhood for S&H (page 429 Generations) is age 66 and over, midlife is 44 to 65, etc.

Boomers won't fill the midlife phase to 100 percent until 2005 to 2007. GenX will fill the rising adulthood and Millenials will fill the youth phase. Everyone peaks. That's when a catalyst can trigger a 4T.

All the qualitative, event related, emotional, opinions we have don't define the 3T/4T transition.

Mr. Turnock write, "One calculation I haven't seen here is the numbers for the percentage of each generation in a phase of life over time."

Sadly, I, being the only one, that posts here on a regular basis, who places any validity on S&H generational numbers makes it kind of difficult to really cover all the bases.

But I try, Mr. Turnock, I try. I'm not sure why I try, but I do try. :smile:

As I recall S&H wrote that the catalyst may occur around 2005, perhaps a few years earlier (2002, 2003 or 2004?) or later. Perhaps the next election will be a contest between Dubya and the Grey Champion. If it occurs a few years earlier, more Millies will have reached draft age, but Xers will still occupy most of the young adult years, and the Silent may still have some influence.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tim Walker on 2001-12-08 19:52 ]</font>

On 2001-12-08 22:17, choselh wrote:
The next election will be a contest between Dubya and the Grey Champion? Go Grey Champion!

It remains a possibility that Dubya will turn out to be the Gray Champion.

On 2001-12-08 23:19, HopefulCynic68 wrote:

On 2001-12-08 22:17, choselh wrote:
The next election will be a contest between Dubya and the Grey Champion? Go Grey Champion!

It remains a possibility that Dubya will turn out to be the Gray Champion.

I have my doubts, Shrub does not strike me as a visionary material. To be a signifact Crisis leader, you need vision and you have a sense of what you know is right and what needs to be done. If I was a Boomer, I could make such material, however Shrub does not have the kind of material. A job he would be good at is acting, his personality type is the Entertainer. While mine is INTJ, the Mastermind,
http://www.keirsey.com/personality/ntij.html

On 2001-12-08 23:46, Tristan Jones wrote:

I have my doubts, Shrub does not strike me as a visionary material. To be a signifact Crisis leader, you need vision and you have a sense of what you know is right and what needs to be done. If I was a Boomer, I could make such material, however Shrub does not have the kind of material. A job he would be good at is acting, his personality type is the Entertainer. While mine is INTJ, the Mastermind,

Tristan, you have this exactly right. Junior's handlers have turned him loose since 911 because he can safely improvise when not dealing with anything specific, mimicking movie heroes, etc. -- sort of like a little kid role-playing in "Cowboys and Indians." But as dumb and gullible as the American people collectively seem to portray themselves on so many occasions, they certainly still retain memories dating back to before 911 -- and Junior's daddy's experience in office proves this.

The American people still remember that, when dealing with anything substantive, Junior's handlers would not allow him to give unscripted remarks about anything even to the point of never holding press conferences. They still remember that Junior could not even keep to script without fumbling it on the rare occasions when his handlers did turn him loose (while shaking in their boots and sweating profusely). The American people are still aware that we basically have Forrest Gump in office -- and he has strings pulled by someone else. Just as his daddy's number returned to the basement as soon as his "police action" ended, so will Junior's because nobody's attention span is that short.

The great fear of course is that the handlers will try to prolong a "police action" for no other reason than to avoid seeing those poll numbers plummet to their normal low level -- and Junior has indeed made it clear that this "police action" will go on and on and on...since it is to his advantage. Will the poll numbers stay up with this "police action" going on indefinitely? If they do stay up, will the American people go to the polls and vote for Forrest Gump simply because he is currently engaged in a "police action" without end?

As dumb as the American people may seem at times, I just do not think that they are that stupid. I can see them giving Gump high numbers for an ongoing "police action" on Election Day while simultaneously pulling the lever for his opponent. No one mistakes this "police action" for a real war and therefore there is no true "wartime popularity" to affect people's votes. No matter what the handlers try, nobody is really losing sight of the fact that we are dealing with Forrest Gump here. The American people will not reelect Forrest Gump...indeed they never elected him in the first place.