On 2001-12-09 09:58, Stonewall Patton wrote:

On 2001-12-08 23:46, Tristan Jones wrote:

I have my doubts, Shrub does not strike me as a visionary material. To be a signifact Crisis leader, you need vision and you have a sense of what you know is right and what needs to be done. If I was a Boomer, I could make such material, however Shrub does not have the kind of material. A job he would be good at is acting, his personality type is the Entertainer. While mine is INTJ, the Mastermind,

Tristan, you have this exactly right. Junior's handlers have turned him loose since 911 because he can safely improvise when not dealing with anything specific, mimicking movie heroes, etc. -- sort of like a little kid role-playing in "Cowboys and Indians." But as dumb and gullible as the American people collectively seem to portray themselves on so many occasions, they certainly still retain memories dating back to before 911 -- and Junior's daddy's experience in office proves this.

The American people still remember that, when dealing with anything substantive, Junior's handlers would not allow him to give unscripted remarks about anything even to the point of never holding press conferences. They still remember that Junior could not even keep to script without fumbling it on the rare occasions when his handlers did turn him loose (while shaking in their boots and sweating profusely). The American people are still aware that we basically have Forrest Gump in office -- and he has strings pulled by someone else. Just as his daddy's number returned to the basement as soon as his "police action" ended, so will Junior's because nobody's attention span is that short.

The great fear of course is that the handlers will try to prolong a "police action" for no other reason than to avoid seeing those poll numbers plummet to their normal low level -- and Junior has indeed made it clear that this "police action" will go on and on and on...since it is to his advantage. Will the poll numbers stay up with this "police action" going on indefinitely? If they do stay up, will the American people go to the polls and vote for Forrest Gump simply because he is currently engaged in a "police action" without end?

As dumb as the American people may seem at times, I just do not think that they are that stupid. I can see them giving Gump high numbers for an ongoing "police action" on Election Day while simultaneously pulling the lever for his opponent. No one mistakes this "police action" for a real war and therefore there is no true "wartime popularity" to affect people's votes. No matter what the handlers try, nobody is really losing sight of the fact that we are dealing with Forrest Gump here. The American people will not reelect Forrest Gump...indeed they never elected him in the first place.

If Dubya bombs Iraq, we can expect for the nation to divide itself even more, and more people will be on the side against the bombing. If he bombs Somalia and Sudan, there won't be as big of a fuss. If we wants to keep ratings high, we would do much better in bombing Sudan and/or Somalia than Iraq.

Bombing Iraq would be a foreign policy disaster also, given that Iraq is an ally of Russia. Such a campaign is sure to spark anger in Russia and China. And given that many people blame US sanctions for Iraq's starvation, it would be a bad policy domestically, and will galvanize the left, and create a much larger anti-war sentiment among the citizens of America (perhaps, the largest since Vietnam), and among our friends in Europe. Europeans already have a strong disliking of Bush.

As for Sudan, not many people care much for it, Sudanese factories have been tied to prior terrorist attacks (and hence, Clinton's "Wag the Dog" cruise missle attacks against a Pharmaceutical (sp?) Plant). In addition, the Muslims in Sudan enslave the Christians in the southern part of this nation. So by appealing to the Christians, such a war could easily gain support. And given that the Christians are largely darker colored peoples, this can also gain the support of some black activists.

As for Somalia, there isn't even a government, and the public is very indifferent to this nation. It will be hard for Bush to lose on this. Given that there isn't a central government, there will likely be little resistance, except by Al Queda members. And since there isn't a central government, a case can be made by the Bush Administration that Al Queda could easily have put weapons of mass destruction there. Let's see how smart the Bush Administration really is in selecting their targets.

3T evidence for Marc: Geraldo Rivera's selection as "war correspondent." Here is a particularly caustic treatment of Geraldo:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...8/230934.shtml

I really cannot generate the passion of the author but, every time Geraldo comes on the screen, I confess to wondering if OJ is on the loose in Afghanistan. I keep waiting for Gerry Spence and Joe DiGenova to pop up in inset windows but nothing happens. Surely placing Geraldo in a combat zone is about as 3T as it gets.

As a target it might be useful to hold Sudan in reserve-to attack in response to the next act of terrorism.

On 2001-12-09 09:58, Stonewall Patton wrote:
The American people will not reelect Forrest Gump

Don't count on the American people doing or not doing anything. I have in mind a logn list of predictions made by Left, Right, Libertarians, and others over the last few years, confidently predicting that the American people will or won't do this or that. Most of them proved embarrassingly wrong.

I actually have a suspicion that if the election were held today, Bush would fly away with it by a landslide. Whether that will be true in three years, (??).

...indeed they never elected him in the first place.

I'm not sure what you mean. He and Al Gore, for all practical purposes, tied . The tiny differene in favor of Al Gore, if it did exist, was statistically insignificant.

Now, you may not like either one, but the fact remains that for practical purposes they did equally well. With the margin of error in the counts, nationally and in Florida, it can't be said with certainty which one actually got the most votes.

If you mean that the Supreme Court picked Bush illegally, well, no. If they had done nothing, the only difference is that it would have taken a bit longer for Bush to become president. Al Gore's only chance was to produce a clear win in Florida, not just a doubtful one. When he could not do that within the intial time frame, the contest was over.

I added a few things below.
Eric

If you read the email going around about the number "11" for the
past few weeks, you will love David's response to it. I don't
know who David is, but his response is hilarious!!!

Original Letter:
The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11
Sept.11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11
After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year.
119 is the area code to Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11
Twin Towers-standing side by side,looks like the number 11
The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11
State of New York - The 11th State added to the Union
New York City - 11 Letters - Afghanistan - 11 Letters
The Pentagon - 11 Letters -
Saudi Arabia - 11 Letters!
Ramzi Yousef - 11 Letters (convicted or orchestrating
the attack at the WTC in 1993)
Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11
Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11

Dave's response: Oh my God! How worried should I be?
There are 11 letters in the name "David Pawson!"
I'm going into hiding NOW. See you
in a few weeks. Wait a sec ...
just realized "YOU CAN'T HIDE" also has 11
letters! What am I gonna do? Help me!!!
The terrorists are after me!
ME! I can't believe it! Oh crap, there must be
someplace on the planet Earth I could hide but no .......
"PLANET EARTH" has 11 letters, too! Maybe
Nostradamus can help me. But dare I trust him?
There are 11 letters in "NOSTRADAMUS." I know,
the Red Cross can help. No they can't... 11
letters in "THE RED CROSS," can't trust them.
I would rely on self defense,but "SELF DEFENSE"
has 11 letters in it, too! Can someone help?
Anyone? If so, send me email. No, don't...
"SEND ME EMAIL" has 11 ....Will this never end?
I'm going insane! "GOING INSANE???"
Eleven letters Nooooooooooo!!!!!! I
guess I'll die alone, even though "I'LL DIE ALONE"
has 11 letters.....
Oh my God, I just realized that America is doomed!
Our Independence Day is July 4th ... 7/4 ... 7+4_!

MORE from an astrologer...
Uranus and Neptune are the two planets that represent the world destiny of peoples and nations (and the planets of the saeculum!); both are in Aquarius these days. Aquarius is the 11th sign of the zodiac.
Aquarius is the WATER BEARER -- 11 letters.
AQUARIAN AGE has 11 letters.
I used the opposing angle between Saturn and Pluto to forecast an
American war starting in Summer 2001. Saturn-Pluto has 11 letters.
Pluto is in SAGITTARIUS-- 11 letters.
EeeK! There?s more: Saturn is in Gemini. The symbol for Gemini is THE TWINS (Twin Towers). The symbol is written ?II?
The symbol for Sagittarius is an arrow penetrating a line.
Put two 7s back to back (Flight 77) and you have an arrow.


I'm so glad our president is doing such a "good job" in handling this
crisis; at least I thought so until I realized, well...
GEORGE W. BUSH has 11 letters!

I knew there was a reason he was destined to be selected as our
president...

Eric Meece


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eric A Meece on 2001-12-09 21:01 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eric A Meece on 2001-12-10 02:46 ]</font>

Quote:



...indeed they never elected him in the first place.





I'm not sure what you mean. He and Al Gore, for all practical
purposes, tied .

Hopeful, perhaps he meant that Al Gore won the popular vote. Had Bush won the popular vote and Gore the electoral, you can be SURE the Republicans would still be crying to holy heaven about it.

_________________
Keep the Spirit Alive,
Eric Meece

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eric A Meece on 2001-12-09 21:07 ]</font>

On 2001-12-09 21:00, Eric A Meece wrote:
I added a few things below.
Eric

Original Letter:
The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11
Sept.11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11
After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year.
119 is the area code to Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11
Twin Towers-standing side by side,looks like the number 11
The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11
State of New York - The 11th State added to the Union
New York City - 11 Letters - Afghanistan - 11 Letters
The Pentagon - 11 Letters -
Ramzi Yousef - 11 Letters (convicted or orchestrating
the attack at the WTC in 1993)
Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11
Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11

.......I'm so glad our president is doing such a "good job" in handling this
crisis; at least I thought so until I realized, well...
GEORGE W. BUSH has 11 letters!

I knew there was a reason he was destined to be selected as our
president...

Eric Meece


<

Interesting observations, Eric. More than a little bit creepy!

Albert Gore adds up to 10. Add a middle initial and you get 11.

I'm beginning to wonder if Marc is right and we are still in 3T. I guess only time will tell.

Albert Gore adds up to 10. Add a middle initial and you get 11.

The only problem with that, being, that he is known as "Al Gore," while Bush is always referred to as "George W. Bush"

Evidence we are in an early Fourth Turning. Calls to hang John Walker high. Now would he have been treated like this in the Awakening or the Unraveling? Actually, I think he would have been applauded around 1970 for the same thing. It's amazing how the same event can inspire different reactions in relatively close periods.

Is John Walker our Benedict Arnold? For some reason I just don' think he is. Whatever might be said for him which ain't much.

On 2001-12-09 21:05, Eric A Meece wrote:

...indeed they never elected him in the first place.

I'm not sure what you mean. He and Al Gore, for all practical
purposes, tied .

Hopeful, perhaps he meant that Al Gore won the popular vote. Had Bush won the popular vote and Gore the electoral, you can be SURE the Republicans would still be crying to holy heaven about it.

True enough, about the GOP. That's the nature of the game.

As for the popular vote, as I pointed out in the rest of the previous posting, it's not absolutely certain which candidate won the national popular vote, and it probably never will be, because the differnece was within the margin of error.

In either case, no matter which one won the popular vote, the difference so fractically tiny as to be unindicative. That much difference really could have resulted from voter errors in either direction.

(Everything I said about Gore also applies to Bush. The margin of error factor applies either way.)

This ought to warm the hearts of Patton/Rush et al who long for winter, wherein the extended reach and power of government grows exponentially.

Big Government Looks Better Now

Pull Quote:
"The recent disputes in Congress over airline security and stimulating the economy, like so many other arguments in Washington, revolve around a fundamental question: How big should the federal government be? Since the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980, those who believe the federal government should shrink have had the upper hand. Sept. 11 changed all that. For the foreseeable future, the federal government will have to grow. The next few years will more closely resemble the mid-1930s, when federal power dramatically increased; but this new deal will involve an overarching federal effort to bring physical, not economic, security to our people."



p.s. Of course, this won't do so long as conservatives are running the show. Do I sense a Clinton/MCAULIFFE/Clinton rerun "just around the corner"?

On governments: Which governments did best just after 9-11? Which departments of the several governments did better to date?

Will the USDA be fighting the WOT with the new <S>pork</S> Farm Bill's power? Are the borders secure?

Perhaps NYC government has been more able domestically and the FedGov internationally. It might give us pause on the Seperation of Powers. HTH

The response to the question, Mr. Saari,
"How much of the time do you think you can trust government in Washington to do what is right? Just about always, most of the time, or only some of the time?" had fallen under 50% (positive) after Nixon resigned, and had stayed below that mark (improving during Reagan's conservative term) for over twenty six years (hitting an all time low during Clinton's liberal term).

When it spiked upward in the Washington Post, September 27, 2000 poll, the government (local, state or federal) hadn't done a thing (beside failing to thwart the terrorists and protect it's citizens) yet.

And, not only do we have conservative sitting in the White House, but, from what I've seen, even more pork is going out the door, post 9/11, than ever before. Go figure, huh? :smile:

Sounds like a good opportunity for a BIG GOVERNMENT liberal to me. Maybe that's really what GW is... and me too! And Rush Limbaugh, and Glenn Beck, and Orin Hatch, and Dick Armey, and Trent Lott, and, and, and all the rest of the GOP. :lol:

On 2001-12-11 10:21, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

And, not only do we have conservative sitting in the White House, but, from what I've seen, even more pork is going out the door, post 9/11, than ever before. Go figure, huh? :smile:

Sounds like a good opportunity for a BIG GOVERNMENT liberal to me. Maybe that's really what GW is... and me too! And Rush Limbaugh, and Glenn Beck, and Orin Hatch, and Dick Armey, and Trent Lott, and, and, and all the rest of the GOP. :lol:

Congratulations on your moment of honesty. Fascist consolidation of power naturally does require very big government. It is the nature of the beast.

Hey Look, Willie Patton, the Democratics are in on it too!

"Great to have you back. Just don't steal the silverware!" -- President Bush greeting Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe on a White House receiving line before the Dec. 2 Kennedy Center Honors.

:lol:

About comparing the reaction to John Walker in the Awakening and today: you can't compare apples and oranges. The enemies were different. In the Vietnam era, most people realized that the North Vietnamese were not really our enemies; just people we were supposed to fight because it was our institutionalized policy to stop "communism" everywhere. Today, we have been directly attacked by people whom no-one but John Walker believes are worth supporting.

Now, does which turning it is make a difference to who happens to be our enemy?

Maybe. In the Awakening, the Crisis had been past for 2 decades, yet we were still following policies based on what happened in the Crisis. Institutional fatigue; dangerous policies carried out for no reason; hence resistance to them among the people; hence, an Awakening.

Today, we are entering or soon to enter a Crisis. The threats are new, the policy is new. The enemy is someone we had not paid enough attention to until they suddenly kicked us in the rear and got our attention in a big way. That's what happens in 3Ts going on 4Ts. Worldly problems we ignored come up and bite us. In 1Ts and 2Ts, by contrast, we are paying too much attention to worldly problems that don't exist anymore, and consequently neglecting cultural and spiritual purposes, and these cry for attention instead.

On 2001-12-11 10:21, Marc S. Lamb wrote:





The response to the question, Mr. Saari,
"How much of the time do you think you can trust government in Washington to do what is right? Just about always, most of the time, or only some of the time?" had fallen under 50% (positive) after Nixon resigned, and had stayed below that mark (improving during Reagan's conservative term) for over twenty six years (hitting an all time low during Clinton's liberal term).

When it spiked upward in the Washington Post, September 27, 2000 poll, the government (local, state or federal) hadn't done a thing (beside failing to thwart the terrorists and protect it's citizens) yet.

And, not only do we have conservative sitting in the White House, but, from what I've seen, even more pork is going out the door, post 9/11, than ever before. Go figure, huh? :smile:

Sounds like a good opportunity for a BIG GOVERNMENT liberal to me. Maybe that's really what GW is... and me too! And Rush Limbaugh, and Glenn Beck, and Orin Hatch, and Dick Armey, and Trent Lott, and, and, and all the rest of the GOP. :lol:

The progressive NPR radio had a study and found that it is the vast swing of Republicans in favor of government from previous polls. It was not a principled objection to Mr. Clinton's disregard for the Constitution but merely a personal one that drove GOP animus. When, Dubya talks, the people may not listen but they surely do nod their several heads. "It's our guy who ignores the laws; and I'm okay with that." can be read in more than one post at say Free Republic.com.

_________________

"I often think it odd that [History] should be so dull, for a great deal of it must be invention." Catherine Morland in Northanger Abbey, Chapter XIV

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Virgil K. Saari on 2001-12-11 16:02 ]</font>

On 2001-12-11 15:58, Virgil K. Saari wrote:

The progressive NPR radio had a study and found that it is the vast swing of Republicans in favor of government from previous polls. It was not a principled objection to Mr. Clinton's disregard for the Constitution but merely a personal one that drove GOP animus. When, Dubya talks, the people may not listen but they surely do nod their several heads. "It's our guy who ignores the laws; and I'm okay with that." can be read in more than one post at say Free Republic.com.

In much the same way that Clinton's Justice Department is wrong for not prosecuting Clinton but it is okay when Bush's Justice Department does not prosecute him. It is wrong when Clinton's administration subverts the Constitution and rule of law but perfectly okay when Bush's administration subverts the Constitution and rule of law. This establishes the disturbing truth that if America and our liberty are to be saved, it will depend, not on "conservatives," but upon yesterday's "liberals" to ride in as the cavalry. I never could have conceived of it until very recently but that is the cold, hard truth. Thank God for historical turnings which change everything, which erase all the old and create all the new.

"It's our guy who ignores the laws; and I'm okay with that." can be read in more than one post at say Free Republic.com.

I don't doubt (conservatives say) that, Mr. Saari. I am not a constitutional lawyer (especially in light of the new definition of "is"), so I honestly can not say for sure. I do know that we are at war (even if Congress has not declared so offically, enough of these guys, and gals, are on record), furthmore, the Ashcroft hearings went absolutely nowhere (because there was nothing, imho). And this week we are, already, seeing the government's case against these terrorist suspects.

And what about the "liberally biased" media (I know it's a conspiracy, Charlie Brown)? Aren't they keeping us informed?

At any rate, nothing I write here is going to amount to a hill of beans to minds firmly set.

P.s. It could be worse! Listen to Mencken, just before the Battle of the Buldge in November of 1944:

"Their correspondence from the various fronts seldom undertakes to tell what is going on: it is simply rooting for the home team. I long ago gave up protesting against it... The American people are now wholly at the mercy of the demagogues, and it would take a revolution to liberate and disillusion them. I see no sign of any such revolution, either in the immediate future or within the next generation. When the soldiers come home it will be infamous to doubt -- and dangerous to life and limb."


HL Mencken (MISS 1880-1956): Diary Entry, page 334 (11/2/44)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc S. Lamb on 2001-12-11 17:17 ]</font>

Another Silent on his way out?

http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/...mey/index.html

Kiff '61

From a column by Thomas L. Friedman:
A young fireman after 9/11 met Tom Brokaw. He grabbed Mr. Brokaw's arm and said "Mr. Brokaw, watch my generation now. Just watch us." Friedman says "The first Greatest Generation won its stripes by defending America and its allies. This Greatest Generation has to win its stripes by making sure that the America that was passed on to us, and that now claims for itself the leadership of a global war against evil terrorists, is worthy of that task."

http://www.viewzone.com/lizmichael110601.html

Reading this article, it seems that we are in 4T. The author is giving a dire warning that we are coming to an end of Imperial America. The scenarios she gives sound distinctly 4T. Also, she is starting to make some of the same warning that S&H made in T4T. She might be going too far, saying that entire cities will be vaporized (we'll see, right?). She talks about building community, and building civil defense.

Knowing that we at least have one foot in 4T, if there is one thing I wished Americans did, it was learn the system, and history. If we are largely ignorant of the system, and don't know much about our history, we will be in far greater danger of losing our society.

_________________
Robert Reed III (1982)
---------------------------------------------
"Life is not a cancer of matter; it is matter's transcendence of itself." - John S. Lewis
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Einstein

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: madscientist on 2001-12-11 23:55 ]</font>