Robert, I don't think the US goverment is in a state of collapse. I don't think it created 911 either. I do think it was brilliantly disfunctional that day. It was the firefighters, cops, emts, and heroic passengers who helped save many lives that day not W. whose plane flew from Florida to Louisiana to Arkansas and then, finally, back to Washington. The guys at the top were obviously in panic. So much so that fighters planes were dispatched several minutes too late to protect Washington DC even though Flight 77 that was to hit the Pentagon was on the radar screen and the WTC hit was already on TV. In fact Donald Rumsfeld was actually in the Pentagon when it was hit. That's kind of brilliant. I do believe that the US was planning war with the Taliban before September and this helped to escalate the terrorism from attacks on foreign US military and diplomatic installations to the homeland itself. Having said this, instigating the enemy to attack and leaving ourselves open to attack through sheer incompetence does not a plot make. Otherwise why would Donald have been sitting in his office when the Pentagon was hit? And i do agree with the article that others want to take the crown that we have away. I say let's take it back and in the process give it to these guys in the jaw. They gotta know who they're messin' with.

I don't think we are in collapse either. I was just posting to show how the mood is morphing.

American in Taliban: Biological strike on U.S. near


"But he's really a good boy."

On 2001-12-11 21:19, Tom Mazanec wrote:
From a column by Thomas L. Friedman:
A young fireman after 9/11 met Tom Brokaw. He grabbed Mr. Brokaw's arm and said "Mr. Brokaw, watch my generation now. Just watch us." Friedman says "The first Greatest Generation won its stripes by defending America and its allies. This Greatest Generation has to win its stripes by making sure that the America that was passed on to us, and that now claims for itself the leadership of a global war against evil terrorists, is worthy of that task."

I read that article too. I wonder how old that fireman was -- closer to thirty, or to twenty? I would guess the former-- his words are a very Millennial thing to say. This is because Xers in general don't tend to think of their generation as "great" at all--even as in wartime, they do the dirty work that must be done with little complaint.

I don't believe in the conspiracy theories, or that the war against Islamic Fundamentalistswill, in the end, be lost either.

Having said that, Robert's article did bring up some very strong points that echo my key concerns day of late. To quote the article...

"Now, this "War On Terror" could have gone a different way. After September 11th, there could have been a call .... a call for the whole people to be on alert, to become armed, to learn self-defense and battle techniques, and to train to do things like protect the bridges, the nuclear plants, the borders, the planes. That did not happen. We could have been told to prepare shelters against nuclear or biological attack. We could have been told to stock up on supplies, on first aid kits, and train in CPR and medical rescue techniques. To buy guns. To shore up our vehicles for potential emergency use or flight.

Instead, what did Rudy Giuliani ask us to do to save New York? What did George W. Bush ask us to do to save the country.

They asked us to shop.

The President asked us to fly in planes that he does not fly in, because they are not safe enough for him to do so. Instead of asking us to save, invest, stock up on supplies, he wants us to continue engaging in pointless consumption and satisfying our vanities. Excuse me, Mr. President, but didn't you just say we're at WAR? Didn't you just appoint a new office of Homeland Security because you knew we were going to be under imminent attack by Al-Queda agents in our own country? Yet we're supposed to go on as if 9-11 never happened? We're supposed to go shopping?

Wartime is a time when a little austerity is in order. The only people during war who would spend like there's no tomorrow are people who expect to die soon. If the American economy is dependent on such frivolous spending, then it basically is already screwed."

And, the following...

"Out of the hundreds of new policies implemented in the last few months to ensure the safety of everyone, the most obvious one that would have actually done some good would have been to close the borders and revoke the visas and green cards of everyone having come into this country from a Muslim country. That one act would have prevented more terrorists from coming in, and it would have provided a mechanism for deporting 95% of potential terrorists still in this country.

Instead, we invite Syrians in to take more flying lessons and are going to grant Taliban-sympathetic Pakistanis carte blanche to come here and engage terror.

Because this third reason has barely been addressed, the agents who will continue to physically destroy America in future months and years, as well as kill millions, are already here, and will continue to be here. Eventually they will perform their task. These terrorists will eventually devastate the American mainland. They will do it regardless of how successful we are in prosecuting the war abroad. In fact, it is entirely possible that the more we punish Al-Queda abroad, the more likely the terrorists here will devastate us.

The American people will never forgive the government and the agencies that are going to allow this to happen. They are going to turn on them and destroy whatever is left of them that Al-Queda has not already destroyed by then. Being Democrat or Republican is not going to matter because both of them let it happen, and both of them will rightly share the guilt."

I have a great deal of respect for how the Bush Administration has conducted the Afghan War itself. However, their domestic policies leave me very, very concerned. The new laws regarding military tribunals and such do not frighten me so much as what the Administration are NOT doing-- demanding serious austerity measures of the American people, and going all-out to enact extreme, even Draconian, security measures that would purge would-be terrorists from our land.

It would seem to me that Mr. Bush is already posturing for the Twenty-Oh-Four election. On one hand, it is obvious that he is asking us to "fly, fly, fly!-- visit Washington DC and go see a Broadway show!" not because it is safe or wise for us to do so, but in order to shore up the incomes of his supporters in Big Business.

And ironically, he is also trying to appease the American far-left liberal establishment--presumably, in order to keep them at bay. By not doing what needs to be done-- e.g., barring entry into the country of ANY more people from the Middle East, preventing non-citizens of Middle Eastern descent from travelling by air, and revoking Green Cards and visas of recent Middle Eastern immigrants, he is preventing liberals from using such actions against him in an election season that is now only a year or so away.

But it may all backfire. Even if we do get bin Laden within the next week (and I believe that we will), if we continue to see more and more terror attacks on American soil -- particularly if the attacks kill Americans who take Mr. Bush's shopping and travelling recommendations to heart -- the people may indeed turn on the Bush Administration in the next election. A failure of the Afghan War to end terrorism (as it very well could) would be analagous to President Hoover's failure to stop the Great Depression, and would set the stage for the real Grey Champion to arise in 2004.

Mind you, I do not hope for this scenario to come to pass. But I fear that it very well may.

Ok, you can breath now... Officials Doubt Walker Knows Secrets


Hey, Mr. Parker, have you read anything written recently by that Stonewall Patton guy? :smile:

I saw a coffee table book called *september 11, 2001*
This is getting played just like the Challenger.
Im sure they made coffeetable books for the day the stock market crashed.
Fourth Turning my ass.
Ans with that, greatest generation my ass.
I despise that book and Brokaw, Mr apple Pie himself.
When I think about kids born in 1979, I think nothing great.

On 2001-12-12 12:59, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

Hey, Mr. Parker, have you read anything written recently by that Stonewall Patton guy? :smile:

I'm here, Marc. Just been on other threads. How may I help you?

What can you do for me, Mr. Patton?

Don't read Mr. Parker's post. :smile:

I don't know if this is a sign of 3T, 4T, or no-T, but have you noticed that more of the Christmas lights this year are multi-colored? During recent years, more and more lights were white icicle-looking strands, but this year, I've noticed more multi-colored strands. The effect of these lights is to make the tree or bush that they cover make like candy.

A neighbor of ours is known locally as the one with the fanciest lights display. This year, he outdid himself and got cited in the Arlington/Alexandria weekly supplement to the Washington Post. His display includes a NYC skyline (in white) with the WTC towers in red, white, and blue. He also has the White House, Capitol, the Lincoln and Jefferson memorials, and the Pentagon, with a hole where the airline crashed into it. Out of this hole is a strand of colored lights that form one of those oval things people wear on their chests as a memorial (pink for breast cancer, etc...). Soaring above all of this is a dove.

Recycled from last year is the sun and some planets and of all things, a blue star of David! Happy Chanukkah! :lol:

On 2001-12-12 17:03, Jenny Genser wrote:
I don't know if this is a sign of 3T, 4T, or no-T, but have you noticed that more of the Christmas lights this year are multi-colored? During recent years, more and more lights were white icicle-looking strands, but this year, I've noticed more multi-colored strands. The effect of these lights is to make the tree or bush that they cover make like candy.

I've noticed a lot of red, white and blue Christmas lights this year.

I still see a lot of the white icicle-looking ones too, but often they are mixed with blue or red strands, and one house has even made their lights look like an American flag.

From the Washington Post Thursday December 6 Arlington/Alexandria edition.

Every year, John Doyle's neighbors look forward to seeing what kind of Christmas light display he'll come up with. To greet the year 2000, it was a 13-foot-high champagne flute with bubbles. A galaxy appeared before 2001 (a space odyssey).


This year, Doyle was influenced by the events of Sept. 11. Outside his family's Fairlington town house, the World Trade Center's twin towers rise majestically from a glittery gold Manhattan skyline. Out of a gaping hole in the Pentagon, red, white and blue lights soar skyward, bleeding into a ribbon of freedom. Picasso's "Dove With Flowers," a symbol of peace, hovers above them all.


But even Doyle was surprised by his neighbors' reaction to this year's 80-hour labor of love. When he threw the switch the Sunday after Thanksgiving, a large crowd had formed outside his town house, at 4223 S. 36th St. Some took pictures; others cried. Thank-you notes were slipped through the family's mail slot, including one from a neighbor known only to the Doyles as the man who walks Jeepers the dog:


"Coming home from New York after Thanksgiving, a friend expressed surprise that some had already deployed Christmas decorations," the neighbor wrote. 'This year,' I responded, 'I'm happy to see them, because we need that kind of cheer.'


"Then I drove into Fairlington: Wow! I've always enjoyed your light displays. They've been artistic, whimsical, joyous. But this year you put up a display I will remember all my life.


"I'm a former New Yorker living in Washington. Your beautiful display moves me deeply, and I thank you for it. You will find me gazing at it many a night."




In ways big and small, the holiday season will be different this year.


People who live and work in Northern Virginia say the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in New York -- and in their back yard -- have intensified feelings for family and tradition, changed holiday and travel plans, and altered gift giving.


"If anything, I want to find more meaningful gifts this year, especially for my family," Julie Singer, 32, said as she shopped at The Christmas Attic in Old Town Alexandria. "This will not be a Christmas of gift certificates. I want them to know I love them and I'm thinking of them."


Nita Whitesel, whose family-owned Christmas Attic store has been selling holiday-themed decorations on South Union Street for 30 years, said customers have been snapping up "anything in red-white-and-blue."


At one point, there was a waiting list with 400 names on it for specially designed Christopher Radko ornaments, including one in the image of the Twin Towers, called "Heroes All." Proceeds from the sale of the ornaments will go to help victims' families, Whitesel said.


Whitesel senses that many of her customers, like herself, are embracing the traditions of Christmas more than the glitz this year.


"I don't feel quite as festive; I don't feel like celebrating," said Whitesel, who will not throw a party this year. "I find myself being drawn more and more to the original meaning of Christmas. I'm wanting to be with my family."


College student Lindsey Salo feels the same way. The 19-year-old Alexandrian was away at school when the Pentagon was attacked. Her father works there.


"I was in my dorm room and it came on my TV," Salo said as she did some post-Thanksgiving shopping at Pentagon City Fashion Centre. "My roommate and I just started praying."


Salo learned later that day that her father was safe. She also learned something about herself.


"I value my family a lot more," she said. "I used to love the holidays because of the lights, the Christmas trees, the superficial things. But it's about spending time with my family. I'm definitely buying nicer things this year to show I care."


Her sister agreed.


"I think it's more about appreciating what you have," said Ashley Salo, 16.


Ruby Brown is project manager of the Arlington County Community Resilience Project, a crisis counseling program established after the Pentagon attack. Her group, which provides free services, has found that the usual holiday stresses have been compounded this year.


Her counselors are out in the community trying to get the word out: It's more important than ever to take care of yourself by getting enough sleep and exercise and avoiding holiday junk food.


"This is a time when people are really examining what is important in their lives," Brown said. "People are returning to a more spiritual base to what they're feeling."


As to why some people are buying more special, personal gifts this year, Brown said: "That's another indicator of the need to reconnect to the spiritual side, to think through the gift. 'It needs to come from me because I may not see you again.' That's the part people leave out, because it's the motivator for the change."


Some are showing that appreciation for family and friends by making their gifts. At Made By You in Arlington, where customers can paint their own pottery, red, white and blue paints are the colors of choice for the handmade plates, ornaments, mugs and photo frames.


Usually, patriotic themes are popular around the Fourth of July, not Christmas, said store manager Rosie Troche. But this year, "I've never seen as much patriotic stuff," she said.


And American flags are especially hot gifts this year, said Sandy Corcoran, a sales representative at the National Capital Flag store in Alexandria.


Corcoran said one man stopped in recently to buy flags and brackets for the homes of his five children for Christmas presents. "He's on a limited income and he thought that would be a good gift," she said.


Anthony Capuano, assistant store manager at the Fresh Fields in Arlington, said he has found a way to fight terrorism at home this holiday season.


"I'm spending money," said Capuano, 42. "I can't be drafted, but I can generate income."


Others are taking the opposite approach and spending less money this year.


"I'm not going to do any shopping," said Air Force Master Sgt. Tommy J. Hinson, 37. "Just not in the Christmas spirit. I'm doing a lot more saving than I've done before. I want to be more prepared for a rainy day."


Hinson also has canceled his plans to travel to Tallahassee, in part out of fear of flying and also out of concern that he may be called back to duty.


Hinson was on his way to work at the Pentagon when the terrorists struck. His office was not damaged in the attack, but the experience has changed the way he feels about many things, including the holidays.


He is not alone.


Penny Haley said the terrorist attacks have "drastically" affected her holiday plans -- and her life. The Alexandria resident usually travels to her mother's home in Maryland for Christmas. Not this year.


"I'm scared to go across the Woodrow Wilson Bridge," said Haley, 38. "I'm not going to go near the post office. I went and bought some gloves from the beauty salon" to open the mail.


Because of lingering concerns about anthrax, some people have decided not to send Christmas cards this year. A sudden demand for Christmas postcards has caught many merchants off guard, store managers said.


Postal officials said that customers needn't fear.


"We don't want our customers to be afraid to utilize the mail," said Alexandria Postmaster C. Michael Harlow. He said it's too early to know whether fewer packages and letters will be sent this holiday season.


"The public needs to realize that we are the eyes for them," he said. "We're on heightened awareness about suspicious letters. That's ongoing. I don't think that will ever go away."


Harlow's advice to holiday shoppers: "Mail!"


And there are many people who are doing just that -- trying to make this holiday season as normal as possible.


Arlington police Capt. Tom Panther knows that continuing terrorist threat means that his plans could change in an instant, but for now, he and his wife intend to spend Christmas Eve at home with their two children and then head to his sister's house in Annapolis on Christmas day, just as they always have.


"We're going to celebrate it the same way, but I think there's a solemnity in the country," said Panther, who helped coordinate the police department's response to the Pentagon attack. "I do not feel festive. I feel more grounded this year in that I'm more worried about the workplace. I'm reachable by pager, and I'll have my cell phone."


"Look mom, there's a hole in the Pentagon," 4-year-old Tyler Wilson told his mother, Jane, as they stopped to look at the Doyle's Christmas display in Fairlington.


Now Jane Wilson is back again, this time with a camera to take some pictures. She becomes emotional just talking about the dazzling display, which spills over to the neighbor's town houses on both sides. But it's not just sadness that Doyle has captured here, she says. The display is also about a nation and freedom and hope.


"This is amazing," said Wilson, 37. "To use the red, white and blue in the towers and to capture the sadness of it in a celebratory way. . . ."


Doyle's display has particularly touched this town house community, which was originally owned by the Defense Department to house military families during World War II. Many military families still live there, as do many former residents of New York and New Jersey.


"We're closely connected to the Pentagon," said Sandy Hodapp, 60, a research analyst for the IRS and treasurer of the Fairlington Historical Society. "We had many people who were in the Pentagon when the incident happened."


Doyle researched his project on the Internet before designing it to scale on graph paper. By the time he was finished, his fingertips were bleeding, his wife, Kari Boe Doyle, said.


"I think it's really cool," said their daughter Claire, 10, who has a twin sister, Karlyn. "It's like the perfect time to do this, and it makes people feel a lot better."


The patriotic theme is catching on around the historic community of brick homes and white columns. Flags are being tucked into wreaths. Christmas bows include blue and white instead of just red.


Several days after the Sept. 11 attacks, 8-year-old Joe Patrician began building replicas of the Twin Towers with his Legos. Soon, his family joined in -- having to make at least one run to the store for another set of 1,200 pieces.


"I looked up and thought, 'This is very therapeutic,' " said Melinda Patrician, 51, who lives several doors down from the Doyles. "It was like putting it back together."


The family finally completed the 110th floor. They stuck a tiny Christmas tree on one tower, a Christmas wreath on the face of the other. They decided a picture of the creation would make the perfect Christmas card.


Inside, they decided one word would do: "Peace."

This is interesting...

NBC to lift liquor ad ban

Considering that we banned the stuff in 1920, repealed the ban in 1934, and then banned ads for the stuff in (I think 1964): Is this 3T, or 4T?

You decide. :smile:

We are still in Unraveling.
Bush issued notice to quit a Cold War treaty.
I agree with comments about how USA could have closed our bordors, we could have become more isolationist and focused on domestic policy issues. But we didn't and we won't until more of the Silent generation retire from public office and Boomers completely take over. In Oregon, a 61 year old, Silent generation, is running for Governor and has the endorsement of the current Boomer governor who isn't running for re-election. He'll probably win. That shows me we're still in Unraveling.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...4/135346.shtml

Well, I'm also beginning to think we're still in a 3T after all. (Are you happy now, Mr. Lamb?)

The whole treatment of Osama bin Laden suddenly seems more 3Tish than 4Tish. He's still in the news, but since the discovery of the tapes, now he's sensationalized and treated more as a pitiful freak than a dangerous enemy. He's become another Unravelling anticelebrity, like Gary Condit or OJ Simpson.

Sure, 911 is still in the news, and people are still waving flags, but it seems interest is turning elsewhere. Then again, life does go on, even in a 4T, and perhaps this is just a temporary step back into the 3T before going 2 steps forward. Even early winter has warmish fall-like days (this year, literally--it has been unseasonably warm in the east). So who knows?

_________________
Labels tell you where the box is coming from and where it is headed and are quite helpful. They do not tell you what's inside though they might indicate "fragile", "handle with care", "this is not a Bill", "magnetic medium", etc.--VIRGIL K. SAARI

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Susan Brombacher on 2001-12-15 20:57 ]</font>

I have to admit that even I am starting to have doubts. After seeing what I have written in another thread about how each generation goes through turning changes, I can see that even today, Xers are the only generation to have made the leap into the next phase of life. So we have experienced 4T for a short period, but because the generations aren't properly aligned, the new mood is not sustainable. But even so, a final judgement would have to be made in November 2002.

I just thought of something. By reacting to this event in such as 3Tish way as we are now (treating bin Laden as a freak celebrity, etc.), all we do is propel ourselves that much faster into a 4T. The terrorists are serious; they want us to take them as seriously as they take themselves. By making a joke of them, they are likely to become enraged and attack again. Also, by reacting in a 3Tish way, we are setting ourselves up, our downfall being a false sense of America's invincibility. Terrorists will recognize this as weakness and take advantage of it. If we are attacked a second time, I see no going back. We wouldn't dare take that risk again.

you guys have so little patience!

fourth turnings can take as long as 20-25 years to play out and this is only just the very, very beginning. the 911 disaster was the catalyst that will set off a chain reaction of events that will GRADUALLY prove to have been fourth turning. this was a seminal event in the history of the u.s. and nothing will ever be quite the same again.

On 2001-12-15 21:14, Susan Brombacher wrote:
I just thought of something. By reacting to this event in such as 3Tish way as we are now (treating bin Laden as a freak celebrity, etc.), all we do is propel ourselves that much faster into a 4T. The terrorists are serious; they want us to take them as seriously as they take themselves. By making a joke of them, they are likely to become enraged and attack again. Also, by reacting in a 3Tish way, we are setting ourselves up, our downfall being a false sense of America's invincibility. Terrorists will recognize this as weakness and take advantage of it. If we are attacked a second time, I see no going back. We wouldn't dare take that risk again.

Still 3T. Possibly. Honestly, I hope we are in a 4T for one simple reason: if we are not, what will it take to push us into one? A smallpox bomb going off at O'Hare on Christmas Eve? My God.

Still, I also am beginning to see, in the media treatment of Sept. 11, evidence of a resurgent Third Turning. Two blatant examples-- Jay Leno's nightly "Where's Osama bin Hidin'?", and Saturday Night Live's bizarre skit last night featuring the claymated cast of "Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" at Ground Zero.

The media reports this morning which suggest that Osama bin Laden may indeed have slipped from our grasp at Tora Bora-- as a sort of 21st Century Wo Fat-- won't help me sleep any better in the coming days and weeks. For if OBL remains at large, it is only a matter of time that we are attacked again in an even more heinous fashion than the WTC, shoving us into the Fourth Turning for certain. We can count on it.

My impression of Bin Laden...after watching the video tape released this week...was that he was very much ONE MEMBER of a group that planned the Trade Towers attack. He didn't seem to be THE LEADER. I think the US is creating a 3T Ultimate Bad Guy. Not that he isn't guilty of participating in that horrible crime, but we are focusing on him...very 3T...and not on the whole Middle East problem.

To CBailey:
Don't get the impression Bin Laden is not the leader. The nature of these terrorist organizations is such that the leader delegates the day-to-day workings to lieutenants and keeps himself busy with the "big picture" of things. At times the executive may not even know the details of events right until right before it happens. The reason for this is to minimize the chances that espionage by governments opposed to the terrorist group (such as Al Qaeda) will pick up the groups intercept's and conclude that there is a real threat and not just a bluff. After the operation succeeds in killing many people, causing a lot of property damage, and leaving a lot of families bereaving over thier loved ones the leader than takes credit for the operation. The leader may very concieve of the general outlines of the operation. He will leave the dirty work to his lieutenanants and their troops in the field. Bin Laden is a genious at management. His family was in the construction business in Saudi Arabia and they became the second wealthiest in that kingdom through their contacts with the monarch and business smarts. Osama himself studied business administration for his university degree in Saudi Arabia. One of the dangers that the West faces is that we often underestimate guys like Bin Laden because they somehow appear less modern and rational. Don't be fooled: Bin Laden's top assistants are doctors, engineers, and architects. Bin Laden himself has a lot of knowledge about architecture due to his experience serving in the family business.

On a website I saw recently about "annoying celebrities," Osama bin Laden is #1 Most Annoying. Anyone got some bug spray?

Now that I think of it, I'm not surprised that OBL has become a celebrity. For some reason, humans seem to worship evil people. I'm sure that Hitler enjoyed at least some celebrity status here in the US in the 1930s, as well as Mussolini. And remember that Stalin was a celebrity. Even today, we worship people like Napoleon, Attila (sp?) The Hun, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, and other terrorists in history.

We worship serial killers too. Crazies like Charles Manson and Ed Gein have actual fans--and fan clubs.