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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 35







Post#851 at 01-04-2002 12:06 PM by Chris Loyd '82 [at Land of no Zones joined Jul 2001 #posts 402]
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Robert, thanks for the link, but too passionate.







Post#852 at 01-04-2002 12:34 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Everything changed!


Irony ends!

No more silly lawsuits!




Just move along folks, no 4T here.







Post#853 at 01-04-2002 12:38 PM by Chris Loyd '82 [at Land of no Zones joined Jul 2001 #posts 402]
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The lease-holders of the once soaring glass towers took a stance: the downed
duo should give way to a new foursome.



The builders would flout the terrorists' deed with this living, breathing, resuscitation of 50-story
towers.


Why four? Why not five? Three? Sixteen? Why the same height? Why fifty floors?

Whatever is built there is going to need to replace 47,000 or so jobs whose workplaces no longer exist. Let's take 200 sq ft and 75 sq ft as the square footages needed for workplaces and shopping/services per person. Forty-seven thousand people times 275 sq ft each equals 12,925,000 sq ft. One acre is .0015625 of a square mile, which is 27,878,400 sq ft, so one acre is 43,560 sq ft. The site has 16 acres, so we have a total of 696,960 sq ft with which to work. The FAR is thus 18.54, rounding to four significant digits. The definition of open space in this message is set to "space used for streets or activities that do not require a sheltered structure". If open space is around 30% (a Jane Jacobs favorite), then the building heights would average out to => 18.54 / .7 = 26.49. Fifty story buildings are unnecessary. Nothing taller than twenty-eight floors should have to be built. Bear in mind this is only for offices and stores and services. If you want residences, you are talking at least four-hundred square feet minimum per person. That would shoot the average building height perhaps well in excess of thirty-five stories. If you want to keep building heights relatively low, you'd have to accept a commerce-heavy district or a larger displaced population.
America is wonderful because you can get anything on a drive-through basis.
-- Neal Stephenson / Snow Crash







Post#854 at 01-09-2002 11:37 PM by BoomXer [at Columbus, OH d.o.b...5.9.59 joined Sep 2001 #posts 55]
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Nothing taller than twenty-eight stories? A low-rise community for 50,000? What, exactly is the reasoning for keeping the structure(s) "relatively low"? Are we afraid that they/it will be hit again? Using that rationale we might as well dismantle the Empire State Building, the Chrysler Building, Rockefeller Center and anything else that could be possibly hit by an aircraft. Maybe we could just burrow into the bedrock of Manhattan.....seven, ten, fifteen stories? Gee, everyone would be "safe" then wouldn't they? That is, of course, until someone sets off a Sarin gas device or a biological wepon of some sort. What a bunch of Luddites!

Whatever is built should be taller than ANY of the surrounding buildings. Not necessarily 100+ stories, but it should be the tallest structure in the area. Lets not forget, the buildings that went up after the WTC was constructed were designed and scaled to complement the Twin Towers. A low to mid-rise building is only going to accentuate the gaping hole in the skyline. I would like to see a soaring post-modern building(s) along the lines of the Nations Bank Center in Houston - built in the city-within-a city style of Rockefeller Center....expansive yet intimate...Art, architecture, beautiful landscaping, hundreds of shops and services.....a soaring urban complex that is as vibrant today as it was when it opened more than sixty years ago. This is exactly what the WTC site needs. From what I understand the fountain and the globe sculpture from the WTC plaza are still intact.....I would use that large, circular area with the addition of a piece of the ruin and a buffer zone of parkland around the entire area with grass, trees, and flowers.

I understand the emotional reasoning why some would not want to rebuild and leave the whole area empty or build something low, but if we look at history we see (unless the entire culture is wiped out completely) that whenever a temple or monument or castle is destroyed by an enemy it is ALWAYS rebuilt......usually bigger and better than ever. Lets not forget that the Twin Towers (however bland they were)...... one of the greatest monuments that the GI's built to themselves...... were built not as monuments to Mammon, but as monuments to World Peace....something that not too many people are aware of. The skyscraper isn't dead, and I fail to see how they can be construed as somehow inherently "wrong". They are wonderful expressions of the American spirit of enterprise and optimism. Monumental architechture is as old as mankind. The current generation may not have the balls to undertake such a project, but there will in time, come a generation that will.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BoomXer on 2002-01-09 20:40 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BoomXer on 2002-01-09 21:08 ]</font>







Post#855 at 01-10-2002 12:21 AM by Chris Loyd '82 [at Land of no Zones joined Jul 2001 #posts 402]
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Nothing taller than twenty-eight stories? A low-rise community for 50,000? What exactly is the reasoning for keeping the structure "relatively low"?

Costs. The taller you go, the more money you have to spend on steel, building a deeper foundation, insurance, fire standards...building costs explode the higher you go up. There is no need to build anything taller than 28 stories for that amount of people if almost all of that space is non-residential. If you want a total of 50,000 people living AND working AND shopping AND using public services, you see this:

1,000 sq ft per person minimum. 50,000(1,000) = 500,000,000 sq ft. Since we have 696,960 sq ft which to work, we have a FAR of 500,000,000/696,960 = 717.4. We're already talking buildings nearly two miles high. I doubt one could design an elevator system to handle that. Fifty-thousand people living and working and playing on 16 acres is around 50,000/2.64 people per family = 18,940 families. One family needs a place to live, so 18,940/16 = 1,184 residential unites per acre. That is obscene. Not even Hong Kong is that dense. NYC's Greenwich Village is only around 200 units per acre, in some areas at that.

Are we afraid that they/it will be hit again?

I'm not particuraly concerned. Hi-rises are simply very, very expensive to build AND maintain. Wanna re-wire a house? OK. Re-wire the WTC (if it were still standing)? Dear God...

Using that rationale we might as well dismantle the Empire State Building, the Chrysler Building, Rockefeller Center and anything else that could be possibly hit by an aircraft.

You said it, not me. I think that those building will eventually need to be replaced or overhauled. Skyscrapers cost millions to maintain anyway, but when the walls need to be replaced, and the floors, and the ceilings, the AC is leaking not-freon, and there is a leak somewhere, you're talking major headaches. The WTC would have lasted well into the 21st century before major problems would have needed to be faced. The Empire? Major problems already exist. I have no problem with Empire and Rockefeller still standing, but I'm not paying for them.

Maybe we could just burrow into the bedrock of Manhattan.....seven, ten, fifteen stories? Gee, everyone would be "safe" then wouldn't they? That is, of course, until someone sets off a Sarin gas device or a biological wepon of some sort. What a bunch of Luddites!

Again, you said it, not me. I think it is absolutely irresponsible to accuse anyone of being Luddites, as no one is preventing the use of hi-technology. Hi-tech and hi-rise aren't synomynous. Depending on your definition of hi-rise, the technology for them is over 100 years old. Hi-rises are old-hat. ZZZZZZZZZ. Build more? Sure, whatever. Don't come to me for financing nor insurance.

They can build anything they want on those 16 acres. The Port Authority still owns it, I think.

If I were in charge, I'd have to go to the site myself and see what the place is like. I can't design from San Antonio. I can only tell you how many stories are needed to house x people for y purposes.

Rules of thumb I might follow would be, say, visual defenition from the exterior of what's inside. I.e., have the interior rooms be defined by different windows, different materials, something, that says "This room is not like the adjacent rooms". I would also average out the heights of the surrounding buildings, and build up to that height plus-or-minus one floor. Also, parking would be very, very limited. I can't give a specific amount, but I guarantee that the vast majority of people there would have to walk or ride the subway.

_________________
All things are fleeting in this transitory world; let me escape its illusions and vanities. (I know it sounds Boomerish, so there.)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chris Loyd '82 on 2002-01-09 21:22 ]</font>







Post#856 at 01-10-2002 12:36 AM by BoomXer [at Columbus, OH d.o.b...5.9.59 joined Sep 2001 #posts 55]
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I liked the last paragraph of your post, except I would add ten stories - it HAS to dominate.







Post#857 at 01-10-2002 12:46 AM by Chris Loyd '82 [at Land of no Zones joined Jul 2001 #posts 402]
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You can buy anything you want.
America is wonderful because you can get anything on a drive-through basis.
-- Neal Stephenson / Snow Crash







Post#858 at 01-10-2002 04:20 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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The skyscraper isn't dead, and I fail to see how they can be construed as somehow inherently "wrong". They are wonderful expressions of the American spirit of enterprise and optimism. Monumental architechture is as old as mankind. The current generation may not have the balls to undertake such a project, but there will in time, come a generation that will.
Skyscrapers are what they are. They are expensive, as Chris said. I think we can do better for all that expense. Monumental architecture can be wonderful. But most other monumental architecture expresses more than "enterprise," and is far more artistic; even the skyscrapers of earlier generations like the Chrysler and the Empire State. The WTC and most of the rest of the GI Generation buildings are not imaginative; just monotonous towers of glass and steel. Though admirable for what they are, they are also overpowering and dehumanizing, expressing the values (or lack of them) of the 1950s. The area needs to be redesigned according to the visions and values of OUR time, if possible. It may not happen, but it would be a great thing if it did, to show what may be possible in the coming Crisis and High: not to just repeat the same mistakes, but benefit from the awakenings and concerns of the last 40 years, such as those the previous poster (JayN I believe) quoted, and rebuild from the destruction of the coming Crisis in a way that will be a new transformation and a new beginning.

We need to recognize that America needs to change, and that some Americans have been changing over the last 40 years, to reflect higher values than "optimism and enterprise;" and we need to reflect that new awakening of values in our architecture, to some extent at least. Those new values include the importance of the person (that people are not commodities or numbers or cogs in a machine or an anonymous mass), spirituality, sensitivity rather than domination, organic and holistic rather than mechanistic or atomistic worldviews, recognition of the Earth and its limits, and yes, world peace, and the recognition of the integrity and value of all cultures and peoples. I think the WTC was built in honor of World Trade, not World Peace; we need to take it to the next step; just as "world trade" needs to be taken out of the control of the IMF, the World Bank, the WTO, GATT, etc., which promote corporate "enterprise" domination rather than the new values. Is the "American Spirit of Enterprise" synonymous with the current domination of our lives by a few corporate Boards and rich Big Shots?

The Houston Center you described, Mr. BoomXer sounds like it would be better than what was there, as far as I can tell from what people here have described of both places. At least that would be an improvement. I'm no expert though!
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#859 at 01-10-2002 04:29 PM by Tim Walker '56 [at joined Jun 2001 #posts 24]
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Lets turn ground zero into a park; and honor the dead with a statue of firemen raising the flag.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tim Walker on 2002-01-10 13:31 ]</font>







Post#860 at 01-10-2002 05:52 PM by Chris Loyd '82 [at Land of no Zones joined Jul 2001 #posts 402]
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I would reccomend Jane Jacob's The Death and Life of Great American Cities. Not all, nor do most parks do what they intend to do.

In fact, most parks never attracted anyone; they just occupied the people that would be there anyway. As for a statue...I see it being covered in graffiti 50 years from now.







Post#861 at 01-10-2002 06:24 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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On 2002-01-10 13:29, Tim Walker wrote:
Lets turn ground zero into a park; and honor the dead with a statue of firemen raising the flag.
Let us make a really large hole in the ground and then make a memorial such as that to the Veterans of Viet-Nam. It could be 100+ stories deep. An Un-Twin Towers!







Post#862 at 01-10-2002 08:38 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Evidence for 3T:

CNN showing live coverage of the "rink rage" trial. Sheesh. :razz:

Kiff '61







Post#863 at 01-11-2002 01:25 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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On 2002-01-10 14:52, Chris Loyd '82 wrote:
I would reccomend Jane Jacob's The Death and Life of Great American Cities. Not all, nor do most parks do what they intend to do.

In fact, most parks never attracted anyone; they just occupied the people that would be there anyway. As for a statue...I see it being covered in graffiti 50 years from now.
What approach to city planning and design (if any) do you advocate?







Post#864 at 01-11-2002 10:51 AM by Lis '54 [at Texas joined Jul 2001 #posts 127]
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My favorite design for a WTC memorial is the Xer designed "Towers of Light." http://www.creativetime.org/towers/










Post#865 at 01-11-2002 12:15 PM by takascar2 [at North Side, Chi-Town, 1962 joined Jan 2002 #posts 563]
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I am sick of all of you liberals here. You crawl over the dead bodies of the 9/11 vicims to shove your hug-a-tree, anti-free market, anti-American agenda on people. Please move to Afghanistan if you don't like America.

Any, ANY buildings not exactly the same size (or bigger) than the originals is a slap in the face to all of the victims as well as handing of victory to Osama. The original developer/architect of the WTC thinks that they should be replaced EXACTLY as they were. He is right.

There is not global warming problem that is caused by man. There is no credible evidence that there is.

We WILL NOT take the terrorist attacks as an opportunity to beat ourselves up over what some acid-laden hippies think is the "great evil America".

The 1960's are over - they have been for a long time. America will not stay great by whimpering and whining and beating itself up. People need to grow up and move on.

As an X'er, I know it will be my job to temper the Prophets and keep them from ruining everything. I begin to see now that they are planning to sell us (America) to the UN and other organizations. We (Xers) have our work cut out for us. We will stop you from ruining America.

We are the GREATEST nation on earth, and we didn't get there by living a 1960's philosophy. We are dominant and will be for a long time to come. Remember that great empires implode from within, and this is exactly where these liberals are leading us. Over my dead body!

God Bless America!
Rebuild Them Just as Tall!!
Taka










Post#866 at 01-11-2002 12:33 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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On 2002-01-11 09:15, takascar2 wrote:
I am sick of all of you liberals here. You crawl over the dead bodies of the 9/11 vicims to shove your hug-a-tree, anti-free market, anti-American agenda on people. Please move to Afghanistan if you don't like America.

Any, ANY buildings not exactly the same size (or bigger) than the originals is a slap in the face to all of the victims as well as handing of victory to Osama. The original developer/architect of the WTC thinks that they should be replaced EXACTLY as they were. He is right.

There is not global warming problem that is caused by man. There is no credible evidence that there is.

We WILL NOT take the terrorist attacks as an opportunity to beat ourselves up over what some acid-laden hippies think is the "great evil America".

The 1960's are over - they have been for a long time. America will not stay great by whimpering and whining and beating itself up. People need to grow up and move on.

As an X'er, I know it will be my job to temper the Prophets and keep them from ruining everything. I begin to see now that they are planning to sell us (America) to the UN and other organizations. We (Xers) have our work cut out for us. We will stop you from ruining America.

We are the GREATEST nation on earth, and we didn't get there by living a 1960's philosophy. We are dominant and will be for a long time to come. Remember that great empires implode from within, and this is exactly where these liberals are leading us. Over my dead body!

God Bless America!
Rebuild Them Just as Tall!!
Taka
Yawn....

Does the word cliche mean anything to you?

And besides, who ever made you the judge of what's American and what's not?

_________________
Robert Reed III (1982)
---------------------------------------------
"Life is not a cancer of matter; it is matter's transcendence of itself." - John S. Lewis
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Einstein

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: madscientist on 2002-01-11 09:36 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: madscientist on 2002-01-11 09:39 ]</font>







Post#867 at 01-11-2002 01:27 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-01-11 09:15, takascar2 wrote:

I am sick of all of you liberals here. You crawl over the dead bodies of the 9/11 vicims to shove your hug-a-tree, anti-free market, anti-American agenda on people. Please move to Afghanistan if you don't like America.

Any, ANY buildings not exactly the same size (or bigger) than the originals is a slap in the face to all of the victims as well as handing of victory to Osama. The original developer/architect of the WTC thinks that they should be replaced EXACTLY as they were. He is right.

There is not global warming problem that is caused by man. There is no credible evidence that there is.

We WILL NOT take the terrorist attacks as an opportunity to beat ourselves up over what some acid-laden hippies think is the "great evil America".

The 1960's are over - they have been for a long time. America will not stay great by whimpering and whining and beating itself up. People need to grow up and move on.

As an X'er, I know it will be my job to temper the Prophets and keep them from ruining everything. I begin to see now that they are planning to sell us (America) to the UN and other organizations. We (Xers) have our work cut out for us. We will stop you from ruining America.

We are the GREATEST nation on earth, and we didn't get there by living a 1960's philosophy. We are dominant and will be for a long time to come. Remember that great empires implode from within, and this is exactly where these liberals are leading us. Over my dead body!

God Bless America!
Rebuild Them Just as Tall!!
Taka
...snoooooooooooooorrrrre....snooooooorrre....

Wake me up when the Republicans put a conservative in the White House. The current resident is doing everything you correctly demonize liberals for desiring. Eeny, meeny, miney, mo....







Post#868 at 01-11-2002 01:31 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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My god.

Is there some sort of bulletin board where they put up the "Kool-Aid Drinker Phrase of the month"? (Thanks for the term, SP)

Lets see, we've had:

"God Bless America" (September?)
"United We Stand" (October?)
"Either With Us Or Against Us" (November?)
"Let's Roll" (December?)

now, for the month of January, we have:

"Over My Dead Body"

I can see it now,

Remember, you get extra Patriot Points each time you use the Phrase of the Month!

or we could go the Pee-Wee Herman route when someone else uses it and simply "SCREAM REAL LOUD!!!!"




Anyway...
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#869 at 01-11-2002 01:37 PM by TrollKing [at Portland, OR -- b. 1968 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,257]
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On 2002-01-11 09:15, takascar2 wrote:
I am sick of all of you liberals here.
ppppfffffftttt!

You crawl over the dead bodies of the 9/11 vicims to shove your hug-a-tree, anti-free market, anti-American agenda on people.
lol! are you for real?

Please move to Afghanistan if you don't like America.
*guffaw*

Any, ANY buildings not exactly the same size (or bigger) than the originals is a slap in the face to all of the victims as well as handing of victory to Osama. The original developer/architect of the WTC thinks that they should be replaced EXACTLY as they were. He is right.
oh, wait, you actually have a point? i thought you were just spewing canned rhetoric.

There is not global warming problem that is caused by man. There is no credible evidence that there is.

We WILL NOT take the terrorist attacks as an opportunity to beat ourselves up over what some acid-laden hippies think is the "great evil America".
oh, goodie, you're back to the rhetoric.

The 1960's are over - they have been for a long time. America will not stay great by whimpering and whining and beating itself up. People need to grow up and move on.
well, thanks for clearing THAT up.

As an X'er, I know it will be my job to temper the Prophets and keep them from ruining everything.
i feel safer already.

I begin to see now that they are planning to sell us (America) to the UN and other organizations. We (Xers) have our work cut out for us. We will stop you from ruining America.
yeah yeah yeah

We are the GREATEST nation on earth, and we didn't get there by living a 1960's philosophy. We are dominant and will be for a long time to come. Remember that great empires implode from within, and this is exactly where these liberals are leading us. Over my dead body!
thanks-- this is exactly what i needed this morning.


TK







Post#870 at 01-11-2002 01:53 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-01-11 10:31, Justin '77 wrote:

My god.

Is there some sort of bulletin board where they put up the "Kool-Aid Drinker Phrase of the month"? (Thanks for the term, SP)

Lets see, we've had:

"God Bless America" (September?)
"United We Stand" (October?)
"Either With Us Or Against Us" (November?)
"Let's Roll" (December?)

now, for the month of January, we have:

"Over My Dead Body"

I can see it now,

Remember, you get extra Patriot Points each time you use the Phrase of the Month!

or we could go the Pee-Wee Herman route when someone else uses it and simply "SCREAM REAL LOUD!!!!"

Anyway...
Justin, can I get my fries "super-sized" if I toss in a Leave No Child Behind?








Post#871 at 01-11-2002 03:58 PM by cbailey [at B. 1950 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,559]
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And least we forget, President Bush exclaimed,"NOT over my dead body!"







Post#872 at 01-11-2002 03:58 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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On 2002-01-11 07:51, Lis '54 wrote:
My favorite design for a WTC memorial is the Xer designed "Towers of Light." http://www.creativetime.org/towers/



Ms. Libengood, I think that is a great idea, and during the day we could have 100+ story wells of neon (R,W &B)to peer into!







Post#873 at 01-11-2002 04:02 PM by Chris Loyd '82 [at Land of no Zones joined Jul 2001 #posts 402]
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I favor the ideas of Jane Jacobs and Chris Alexander. Both are rather libertarian/anarchist in their views. My personal experience with cities leads me to believe that a slow and steady process works best. People need time to really "finish" their homes and workplaces, and even though the process of building, fixing, tearing down, etc, never ends, the initial build-up should be gradual.

I don't favor the dogmatic New Urbanist tone that is often expressed, as it seems just as totalitarian as the rules that guide current building.

As such, I don't favor city-wide zoning, but rather ordinances preventing toxic uses from having an impact on other people. I'd have no problem living with a nuclear power station on the lot adjacent to me, as long as that station didn't practice techniques that would harm me or my property.

I think the city should be self-supporting in that it should receive little to no state funds and probably never recieve federal funds. I do think that there should be a county or state policy prohibiting developments of most kinds along 500-year flood plains (including roads), but that's coming from someone who lives in San Antonio. At the very least, any and all government-managed power, water, insurance, and transportation projects should not be such that develop occurs in these flood plains. Any flood damage that occurs in these 500-year flood plains would not be covered under government policies.

I favor the ending of most all subsidies, with exception of intracity auto routes. Even those should be limited only to grade-separated highways and the roads that access them (Those roads that are in those signs that say "1/2 MILE TO HUEBNER RD EXIT"). If almost all transit subsidies were removed, the suburban sprawl problem would almost cease to exist, as roads and sewers would have to be paid by the people who actually use them, not by everyone. Up-front driving costs would go up, mostly because road funds would have to come from tolls, but since ideally taxes would be slashed since taxes aren't paying for them, one would have more money to pay for tolls.

Zoning, setbacks, etc, should be the jurisidiction of the various city districts, of which there should be much, much more than currently exist in San Antonio. I personally favor a whatever-goes approach to zoning, as long as uses don't cause harm to people and property. A building should only be set back from the street when it is of such scale and grandeur that it could only be fully appreciated when viewed farther than the street width allows.

City services are a thorny issue. The police, fire, hospital, transport, and schools should function as usual, unless otherwise noted. I think that most traffic violations on city roads should be monitored by video camera such as those in Germany. Red-light cameras, speed cameras where speed limits exist, and so on. I don't favor speed limits, as driving should be more up-frontly expensive, and mass transit options should exist in that kind of economic environment. An "autobahn" system is very useful for population control.

I think that if many districts are formed, the city could send the bill for that district's policing, fire-putting-out, health, and education demands. Each district should have its own city police station, fire station, hospital (much smaller than the mega buildings), and education facilities. Expensive health and education services, requiring large building, can remain and be built in the current "Health" or "College" zones that already exist. A district has the option of not paying for a certain portion of the bill (like, say, trash pick-up), and use the money to run its own service (in this case, trash pick-up).

In any case, the first paragraph is the over-riding philosophy, with the subsequent ones the details, which will vary from city to city. I also note that cities are different from towns, which are different from villages, and houses out in the middle of nowhere. San Antonio functions like a town, but has enough people to become a city. What prevents it from being a city, is that it isn't very urban, nor does it have a critical economic mass that is necessary to export...something, anything. Not necessarily manufactured goods, but culture, services, even money. The major attraction to San Antonio should be the potential to make money, and join the urban culture, not because the cost of living is low and some think the climate is nicer.







Post#874 at 01-11-2002 04:28 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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01-11-2002, 04:28 PM #874
Guest

Speaking of the original topic.

A new sign of the fourth turning.

See what's going on in Asia (outside of China).

Japanese banking system is on the verge of collapse. The system has a net liquidity of a negative trillion and a half yen. This could bring down the global economy.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click...26233&set_id=1







Post#875 at 01-11-2002 04:50 PM by Richard Turnock [at Oregon joined Nov 2001 #posts 28]
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01-11-2002, 04:50 PM #875
Join Date
Nov 2001
Location
Oregon
Posts
28

On 2002-01-11 13:28, JayN wrote:
Speaking of the original topic.

A new sign of the fourth turning.

See what's going on in Asia (outside of China).

Japanese banking system is on the verge of collapse. The system has a net liquidity of a negative trillion and a half yen. This could bring down the global economy.
Thank you for getting things back on topic.

Interesting idea that the catalyst for 4T in USA comes from outside. Is that because our economy is now linked to the global economy? And in 1929, we didn't have the same level of international trade?

Richard
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