On 2002-03-14 15:21, Marc Lamb wrote:



Che Guevara... Looked like Jesus.

Rich, American college-age lefty gals loved this guy in the late sixties.

Quickest way f
or a rich, American college-age, lefty guy to get laid in the late sixties: Know how to talk like, and about, Che Gueara with rich, American college-age gals.

Mission accomplished. :smile:


p.s. Does this hold true in Australia, Tristan?

Yes Che was popular with radical university students in the 1960's, still is.

In the USA the change of generations in universities from Boomer to X'er brought in a Libertarian element. It did not in Australia, that radical leftist (i.e Marxist) element remains (although they are X'ers instead of Boomers)

In Americia in the Unravelling a lot of political idealistic people became libertarians. However in Australia nearly all of the political idealsitic people became Marxists or radical environmentalists.

I do get annoyed when people I see put up posters and wear t-shirts of Che. I live in this country's version of Berkeley politically.

"This article seems to show a change in military thinking from the so-called Powell Doctrine, which reflects Artist leadership in the Military. Towards a military doctrine which reflects Prophet leadership of the armed forces. The article seems to show senior military officers much more cautious than their juniors." --Tristan Jones


Be very careful about this, Mr. Jones...


Quote from article:
"During the first months of the war, instances of excessive caution like these regularly became the centerpiece of twice-daily telephone conversations between Rumsfeld, Myers, and Franks--during which Rumsfeld often had to prod Franks to be more aggressive."


Rumsfeld in an Artist too.

On 2002-03-14 17:16, alan wrote
If anyone is interested in a fictional account of the last years of Mr. Guevara's revolutionary career, at least from the point of view of his foes, there's a novel out now called "Special Ops" by W.E.B. Griffin.

In the novel the decision is made by LBJ and the CIA deliberately to not assassinate Guevara, but instead to undermine his efforts to overthrow African governments. They felt that it was preferable to humiliate him instead of turn him into a Socialist martyr.
Although this is a work of fiction, I have a strong hunch that there is a lot of truth in the story. It also is definitely not a flattering portrayal of "Che".

Bad luck is that Che became a socialist martyr. Che in real life was a quite brutal guy, goes with the revolutionary spirit I guess, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Allende, Castro and Che. Seem to be murderors or potential murderers and pretty nasty guys, yet they could be charming and on the outside be civilised.

Che once shot a kid during the Cuban revoultion for eating more than the daily ration. That would get you a image of how brutal the guy was.

Isn't the new color-coded "alert" system certain evidence that we are now in 4T? (For comparative purposes, FDR declared a "limited national emergency" on September 8, 1939, then upgraded it to "unlimited" on May 27, 1941). Of course they got it wrong, because green should be between blue and yellow, and not the other way around. Another way to get it right would be to replace the blue "guarded" alert with white; after all, the "Walk" lights at traffic intersections are now white in most places (they used to be green).

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/03/14/St...te_raise.shtml

Quote:

"The DMV appears to be succumbing to the 'religious hysteria that prevails after Sept. 11,' Tzanetakos said Wednesday."

4T?

I submit this as evidence of this 4T.

Hanson rocks.

On 2002-03-15 15:39, Chris Loyd '82 wrote:
I submit this as evidence of this 4T.

Dang, Chris, interesting article. Does it (and others like it) portend a resolution to the Culture Wars?

Although I'm not sure that I like the bloodthirsty way that the West is portrayed . . .

How old is the author? He sounds Gen X.

On 2002-03-15 16:03, TraceyX wrote:
Hanson rocks.

Hanson: "Our salvation depends on our leaders? knowing history."

Then, Good Lord, please save us from ourselves!

On 2002-03-15 09:06, Kiff '61 wrote:
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/03/14/St...te_raise.shtml

Quote:

"The DMV appears to be succumbing to the 'religious hysteria that prevails after Sept. 11,' Tzanetakos said Wednesday."

4T?

Yes, it seems 4T. At my college, the Campus Freethought Alliance is just starting a chapter. :grin:

On 2002-03-15 02:04, Anthony '58 wrote:
Isn't the new color-coded "alert" system certain evidence that we are now in 4T? (For comparative purposes, FDR declared a "limited national emergency" on September 8, 1939, then upgraded it to "unlimited" on May 27, 1941). Of course they got it wrong, because green should be between blue and yellow, and not the other way around. Another way to get it right would be to replace the blue "guarded" alert with white; after all, the "Walk" lights at traffic intersections are now white in most places (they used to be green).

You know, Anthony, this reminds me of my husband's take on how all the recent 911 Bush reactions are compared to the last Crisis war entry. He is convinced that alot of it is simply a case of reading history and copying it to help create a desired effect. Not that he is repulsed by that. He considers it a valid asset in a political bag of tricks. Me, I consider it abhorent, if that's what has been done.

But, when looking at this particular creation as being a "sign" of 4T, my husband's idea should be be considered. You wouldn't want to be manipulated, right? I know I don't.

:smile:


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Barbara on 2002-03-16 16:53 ]</font>

Chris Loyd posts...
"I submit this as evidence of this 4T."

Pull quote:
"About as many americans were killed in the terrorist attacks of September 11 as at Lexington and Concord, at the Alamo, at Fort Sumter, on the Lusitania, and at Pearl Harbor combined..." --Victor Davis Hanson

I like and respect Hanson alot, but this kind of comparison, ala Third and Fourth turning business, is just absurd. The Alamo and the Lusitania, do not belong in the same league with Lexington and Concord, Fort Sumter, and Pearl Harbor! So why attempt it? Sells books I guess.

Please allow me to dissent here. On April 15, 2001, this story ran on page one of the Boston Globe: Inside The Empire

A few quotes...
"Richly detailed, first-person reports that had been classified for 60 years cover the arc of the war, from the shock of invasion to the days when the tide turned in favor of the Allies. They reflect with a rare immediacy the scene in places other than Pearl Harbor."

"Although 2,000 people died at Pearl Harbor - an event that has been retold in hundreds of books and movies and is the subject of a big-budget film that premiers next month - tens of thousands were killed by the Japanese within 24 hours throughout the Pacific theater. In a week, Japan sat astride an Eastern empire as fearsomely as Hitler reigned over Europe."

That's the stuff of a fourth turn, folks! Not some damn rich-boy, renegade hotshot like Osama bin Laden and his merry band of rogue idiots.

Back to Hanson...
<FONT SIZE="+2"><center>"We are told we have entered a ?new? age of terror."</FONT></center>

True enough. While I don't know how old Hanson is, I wonder what his take on the 1962 Cuban missile crisis is, because that was real fear!

It's no secret, we post-war boom babies think we're the first generation God ever really created. Well, we ain't. :smile:


"Secretary of State Colin Powell's first reaction to the day of infamy was to pledge to "bring those responsible to justice." This is exactly wrong. Franklin Roosevelt did not respond to Pearl Harbor by pledging to bring the commander of Japanese naval aviation to justice. He pledged to bring Japan to its knees." --Charles Krauthammer (September 13, 2001)

a lot is two words, not one.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Thanks, Dave. :smile:

Thanks, Marc. I've complained about this tendency abunch of times in my life, but I've usually met with adearth of concern, so I normally meet it with aplethora of indifference (although educated people who use it irritate me alot).

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

My efforts to find the birthdate of Mr Hanson have failed. I can only guess he is a Boomer. Feel the passion, not the macho-ness, of his writing.

I, too, Mr. Loyd, have not been able, via the internet, to ascertain the age of Mr. Hanson. Kinda weird, if you ask me.

Speaking of a... how come awhile is cool, but alot is not?

Ask the man, James J. Kilpatrick, father of THE WRITER'S ART


But then again, is this chewing over the bone, missing all the fat? Or, did Marc Lamb really have anything to say... or was it just hot gas? :smile:


p.s. hope i got my commas right. :smile:




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2002-03-16 20:54 ]</font>

On 2002-03-16 20:52, Marc Lamb wrote:

p.s. hope i got my commas right. :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2002-03-16 20:54 ]</font>

If you didn't, Marc, you can be sure I noticed (I'm an editor). :wink:

I have never read anywhere that six months after Pearl Harbor, in June 1942, that the American people held a six month commemoration and asked each other "Did the world really change for you on December 7th or have things gone back to normal?"
Nor was there a special rebroadcast of the news of Dec 7th on a Sunday evening for the purpose of refreshing people's memories and strengthening their resolve.
Whatever this current period of time may end up being called in the 4T lexicon, it isn't the fourth turning yet.

On 2002-03-16 22:48, alan wrote:
I have never read anywhere that six months after Pearl Harbor, in June 1942, that the American people held a six month commemoration and asked each other "Did the world really change for you on December 7th or have things gone back to normal?"
Nor was there a special rebroadcast of the news of Dec 7th on a Sunday evening for the purpose of refreshing people's memories and strengthening their resolve.
Whatever this current period of time may end up being called in the 4T lexicon, it isn't the fourth turning yet.

You are right, alan, none of that happened then. Interesting way of looking at it...

The last 4t began in 1929 not 1942.

On 2002-03-16 20:06, Chris Loyd '82 wrote:
My efforts to find the birthdate of Mr Hanson have failed. I can only guess he is a Boomer. Feel the passion, not the macho-ness, of his writing.

Although I also have been unable to find his birthdate or age listed anywhere, I have discovered from this page:

http://www.ucsc.edu/news_events/pres...alumaward.html

that he graduated from college in 1975.

I think we can be 99% sure that he is a boomer. I mean, look at him:

The arrival of a 4T should be noted by a dramatic turn in direction and mass mobilization going FORWARD into new ground and willing to confront and overcome an undetermined future without guarantee or reimbursement. IOW a pioneering event accompanied by great risk.

That is a hallmark sign of the beginning of a turning cycle.

The 911 reaction is quite dissimilar. It lavishly rewards victims, bails out whole cities and industries while telegraphing the perps and forging alliances with enemy hotbeds. All of this is done with the intent of getting BACK to normal as soon as possible. No new ground or mass mobilization.

Even the speeches by FDR http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Da...extbooks.html#)
and GW differs substantially.

The FDR speech was direct and to the point and precipitated a direct target, action and result without need for politically correct approval. The GW speech was a choreographed touchy-feely politically correct victim parade searching for approval. FDR sought to focus mass emotion. GW sought to diffuse it.

1723, 1788, 1860, 1932 were all pivotal periods and they all appeared when the mass psychology decided to take itself to new ground. These pivotal years also witnessed a climate of extreme economic and political severity. Choices largely and previously unknown had to be made by the public and a pioneering mass psychology rose up to pave the way. The rest is history.

911 has been primarily a media event with very little mass participation beyond TV or the socially acceptable charity check. The markets are near all time highs except the NASDAQ but it is nicely up from its 1998 lows and the government who created the problem is calling all the shots.

NO mass movement is evident.

NO economic or political severity is present.

NO mass psychological movement is evident.

Everyone just wants to go BACK to their old routine.

Mass denial is a movement without direction, pioneering is its opposite.

Perhaps a 4T by 2005 but certainly not now.

Mr. Victor Davis Hanson was born in 1953. I just read his latest Culture and Carnage and found my self sadly unconvinced. As he is an agraian and a grape grower of long tradition, his book seemed an exercise in "cherry picking" which may be fruitful in the orchard but is a bit dubious when contemplating the Muse Clio.


He has written very well on farming and on Greek ways. Imperial overreach comes to mind when looking at his last volume. HTH

On 2002-03-17 06:52, Jack wrote:
The arrival of a 4T should be noted by a dramatic turn in direction and mass mobilization going FORWARD into new ground and willing to confront and overcome an undetermined future without guarantee or reimbursement. IOW a pioneering event accompanied by great risk.

Actually, 4Ts don't always begin with immediate dramatic turns in national mood. If you were back in 1930, it likely would not be evident that society entered 4T. As far as whether we are in it, we are still at the very beginning; only 6 months have passed since the event.

http://www.historyplace.com/specials/kingphilip.htm
In the first 6 months of the Glorious Revolution 4T, there was no large scale movement. The only feature of this catalyst was a major war. Months after the initial catalyst, was Bacon's Rebellion. This was the first real movement.

In the Revolution, this is only equivalent to the summer of 1774, which was also largely non-eventful in the colonies. The idea of separation didn't even enter most people's minds. Only Massachusetts took a radical turn in the late summer of 1774. Other than that peculiar event in MA, the other colonies did not really begin to move forward until 1775.

The Civil War was anomalous, but even after the election of Lincoln, any movement was on the part of the Southerners instead of the Northerners.

The previous 4T began the same way. The Stock Market Crash did not start any mass movement. In fact, there were no mass movements until 1931, when the US was hit with record numbers of strikes.

Or, when looking back at the previous 2T, we would be at the equivalent of Spring of 1964. And even then, the 2T didn't totally change society. People continued living 1T lives until 1967.

That is a hallmark sign of the beginning of a turning cycle.

Actually, as mentioned above, the catalyst does not always cause a mass movement, and the mass movement might not even come until more than a year after the catalyst. Rather the catalyst marks a point in which the mood merely changes. People ALWAYS want to go to normalcy.

The 911 reaction is quite dissimilar. It lavishly rewards victims, bails out whole cities and industries while telegraphing the perps and forging alliances with enemy hotbeds. All of this is done with the intent of getting BACK to normal as soon as possible. No new ground or mass mobilization.

Of course we want to get back to normal. The question is, can we get back to normal? That will be the major deciding factor. There was no mass mobilization because we are so early in it (assuming we are in 4T).

Even the speeches by FDR http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Da...extbooks.html#)
and GW differs substantially.

The FDR speech was direct and to the point and precipitated a direct target, action and result without need for politically correct approval. The GW speech was a choreographed touchy-feely politically correct victim parade searching for approval. FDR sought to focus mass emotion. GW sought to diffuse it.

True, but remember that FDR became president in the March of 1933, not in early spring of 1930. In the spring of 1930, Herbert Hoover was president. At that time, no one still believed that the nation was in depression, and were expecting a very quick recovery, and a resumption of life as it has been in the 1920s.

1723, 1788, 1860, 1932 were all pivotal periods and they all appeared when the mass psychology decided to take itself to new ground. These pivotal years also witnessed a climate of extreme economic and political severity. Choices largely and previously unknown had to be made by the public and a pioneering mass psychology rose up to pave the way. The rest is history.

The Awakening 2T didn't begin until 1727, not 1723. The Revolution 4T ended in 1794, not 1788. And the previous 4T began in 1929, not 1932. If we use the past 4T as a guide, then we should expect mass movements to begin no earlier than 2003. The "pivotal" period would not happen until 2004. The GC wouldn't appear until 2005.

911 has been primarily a media event with very little mass participation beyond TV or the socially acceptable charity check. The markets are near all time highs except the NASDAQ but it is nicely up from its 1998 lows and the government who created the problem is calling all the shots.

9/11 was a media event, but the ramifications are massive. This includes a sudden trust in government, a sudden rise in the importance of religion, a rise in people signing up for the military, etc. Besides, remember that the book itself says that the problems of the initial catalyst will eventually be averted, and put under control. What changes is the case of national nerves. The reaction to subsequent events decides whether or not we are in 4T.

NO mass movement is evident.

I beg to differ. The formation of AVOT, and the fast grass-roots organization of the left are examples of mass movements at their start.

NO economic or political severity is present.

We've deferred the large economic problems for now, and am betting that we are not out of the water yet. But as for politically, I also have a different opinion. Many states are facing budget crises. The immediate formation of several organizations designed to fight terror are examples of the severity of the situation.

NO mass psychological movement is evident.

I would have to say that this is very false. The terrorist attacks have caused a sea change in the psyche of Americans. In fact, I would bet that the rest of the world is confused at what is going on in America. If I was living in Europe, and took the pulse of Americans between August 2001 and today, I would've definitely seen a difference. Public opinion has become polarized. People are genuinely interested in the state of society. After the terrorist attacks, the Right Wing has taken total control of the nation. In response to this has been a grass-roots opposition that is growing VERY rapidly. The mood of the nation has definitely changed, dramatically.

Mass denial is a movement without direction, pioneering is its opposite.

Recall the mass denials in 1930.