Interesting proposition Robert and Mr Walker.

Would AIDS be enough to shake Africa out of its troubles?

On 2002-03-28 16:20, Stonewall Patton wrote:

On 2002-03-28 14:59, Tristan Jones wrote:

I got Fox News on my cable and I was watching the O?Reilly Factor, this guy is so right wing he makes me look like a statist!

Now on a recent commentary about the Middle Eastern conflict, Bill O'Reilly said something unusual. He said that the USA was too dependent on Middle Eastern Oil and the Bush administration was not doing enough to encourage people to conserve oil. Also he said that the USA must achieve energy independence.

Sign of a 3T or 4T?

O'Reilly is actually pretty populist, Tristan. He takes a bit from both left and right and is more of an agitated moderate.

This is a good example of how the English-speaking nations (I call them collectively the Anglic Nations) differ between each other. By American standards, O'Reilly is a populist center-right sort of guy.

By Australian standards he would be middle right.

By the standards of many Europeans, he'd be considered a borderline raving right-wing lunatic. It's instructive to recall that in Europe, Bill Clinton was considered center-right.

On 2002-03-29 13:17, Virgil K. Saari wrote:
Dubya wanted to send Ms. Oprah Winfrey to Afghanistan for <S>spin</S>, <S>propaganda</S>, <S>public relational</S> for some reason or other. We be 3T. HTH

As you have said it, so it must be! I agree completely.

On 2002-03-29 21:39, HopefulCynic68 wrote:
This is a good example of how the English-speaking nations (I call them collectively the Anglic Nations) differ between each other. By American standards, O'Reilly is a populist center-right sort of guy.

By Australian standards he would be middle right.

Interesting stuff,

By Australian standards Bill O'Reilly would be pretty right wing, about as right wing as the so-called Catholic Right.

Our Protestants are actually more liberal than the Catholics. O'Reilly reminds me of these people I regard as right wing nuts. Like that homophobe Senator Bill Heffernan and the 'mad monk' Tony Abbott.

By Australian standards I am centre-right. I am generally a strong supporter of the Liberal party. However by American standards I am centre-left. I do regard the Republican Party to be somewhat whacko; some elements remind me of Far Right One Nation mob. Especially their oppostition to gun control measures.

By the standards of many Europeans, he'd be considered a borderline raving right-wing lunatic. It's instructive to recall that in Europe, Bill Clinton was considered center-right.

Actually judging by his deeds and his views, Bill Clinton would be considered centre-right in Australia. Actually by Euro-Standards Clinton was well on the right, that is to say something

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tristan Jones on 2002-03-29 22:21 ]</font>

We may very well still be in a 3T, however, we really will not know until we can look back at 2001 after a few years and say to ourselves "Yeah, 911 is when all the trouble started". Until we can do that we'll just have to wait and see.

I think that 911 will be seen as the Crisis catalyst unless the following two scenarios both occur:

1. The current War on Terrorism continues to drag on and on for at least another year or two, continuing to come up empty handed while failing to either solve the problem or significantly escalate the terror. This would feed the still-present societal cynicism typical of an Unravelling, and cast us back into a full-fledged 3T mindset until the real Catalyst occurs.

2. In 2004 or later, a massive terrorist attack-- involving weapons of mass destruction-- occurs on American soil. This attack would make 911 look like a walk in Central Park, and involve the deaths of not thousands, but millions or even tens of millions of Americans. Whether this new attack is seen as the true Catalyst of the Millennial Crisis would largely depend on whether enough time has elapsed since the WTC attack for American society to slip back into a full-Unravelling mindset. My guess is if such an attack were to occur before the Twenty-Oh-Four Election, 911 will still be remembered as the Catalyst that started the Crisis. Afterwards, the new attack would be considered the Catalyst and 911 a mere warning shot-- like John Brown's Raid.

In the Stockholm shops, there are a fair amount of red, white, and blue fashions (displays and shirts and the like) and some stores sell American flags.

I have no idea whether this stuff was in the shops before 911 or whether it sells.

3T or 4T? As I've posted earlier, 911 hasn't appeared to affect Swedish society much. My sister was in tears when it happened, but that was because she was afraid WWIII was about to begin! Since then, its back to business.

On 2002-03-30 08:50, Jenny Genser wrote:
In the Stockholm shops, there are a fair amount of red, white, and blue fashions (displays and shirts and the like)....

Are you sure this is not due to the loss of Norway? A residual pain such as an amputee's itch?

On 2002-03-29 21:44, HopefulCynic68 wrote:

On 2002-03-29 13:17, Virgil K. Saari wrote:
Dubya wanted to send Ms. Oprah Winfrey to Afghanistan for <S>spin</S>, <S>propaganda</S>, <S>public relational</S> for some reason or other. We be 3T. HTH

As you have said it, so it must be! I agree completely.

Ms. Oprah Winfrey has told the Bush people she is too busy to go on their trip to Afghanistan. The junket has been call off for now.

3T or 4T?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tim Walker on 2002-03-31 18:15 ]</font>

On 2002-03-30 21:30, Tim Walker wrote:
Steve Ryan posted that during the Potato Famine Nomad kids were pushed down/smothered in an attempt to keep them alive. They morphed into Artists. Their next elders, who had been Prophets, were so traumatized as to morph into anomalous, risk adverse Nomads. Could something similar have happened during the Black Death? Parents smothering their kids in an attempt to keep them alive, but the kids morphing into Nomads as their parents died off? At the end of the Crisis the survivors would include Nomad adults and kid Artists. This would be somewhat similar to the Gilded-Nomad/Progressive-Artist pattern in the aftermath of the Civil War.

IMHO, we just don't have sufficient data to make meaningful judgements about the Generational Cycle this far back (though ironically, we might be able to do better with even older times, such as the Roman Republic).

I'm not even sure the Cycle was recognizably operating during this period.

On 2002-03-30 15:09, cbailey wrote:

On 2002-03-29 21:44, HopefulCynic68 wrote:

On 2002-03-29 13:17, Virgil K. Saari wrote:
Dubya wanted to send Ms. Oprah Winfrey to Afghanistan for <S>spin</S>, <S>propaganda</S>, <S>public relational</S> for some reason or other. We be 3T. HTH

As you have said it, so it must be! I agree completely.

Ms. Oprah Winfrey has told the Bush people she is too busy to go on their trip to Afghanistan. The junket has been call off for now.

3T or 4T?

It might just be that Oprah leans liberal and isn't really crazy about the Bush Administration. Sometimes individual preferences and foibles are more relevant than the Turnings.

There was a daunting 3T indicator this Sunday morning: Jesus saw his shaddow, so we're in for six more weeks of winter.

[Hopefuf Cynic:] IMHO, we just don't have sufficient data to make meaningful judgements about the Generational Cycle this far back (though ironically, we might be able to do better with even older times, such as the Roman Republic).

[Mike:] Why do you think this? There is a fair amount of data on the 14th century, especially when compared to Roman times for which there is just about zip.

Sign of Fourth Turning.

Attempts by Doris Kearns Goodwin, a Silent historian, to use process to defend her reputation has hurt her reputation amongst the public viewers of the PBS Newshour and fellow historians. This is notable because PBS Newshour is viewed primarily by Silent. Kearns has turned to Ted Kennedy and Bob Dole to defend her reputation but younger think negatively of her attempts to defend her 1995 Pulitzer-prize winning book about the Kennedys. Younger historians on a committee looking into the charges of plagiamrism are none too pleased.


March 31, 2002

Historian's Fight for Her Reputation May
Be Damaging It

By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

he historian Doris Kearns Goodwin,
who is under criticism for copying
passages she used in a book about the
Kennedys, has undertaken an energetic
effort to salvage her reputation, including
appearing on television with David
Letterman, speaking about plagiarism and
working with Robert Shrum, a political
consultant. She also is getting some help
from Senator Edward M. Kennedy.

But her efforts may be backfiring with some
fellow historians, who object to her recent
appeals that "it is time to move on" even
before she has disclosed the full extent of
her errors.

Her public appearances also come at a
delicate time. Ms. Goodwin, who won a
Pulitzer Prize for an earlier book, is a
member of the Pulitzer board, which selects
the winners, and the board plans to discuss
her continued membership when it meets this
week.

Robert C. Darnton, a professor at Princeton
and the former president of the American
Historical Association, said, "If she is
organizing a P.R. campaign to exculpate
herself, that strikes me as unprofessional
conduct."

Ms. Goodwin did not return calls seeking comment. Instead, Michael
Nussbaum, a lawyer in Washington, responded for her, saying she was
keeping previous commitments.

"She is going to continue to keep speaking engagements," Mr. Nussbaum
said, "and the host organizations have indicated that it would be appropriate
for her to address what is happening and how she is dealing with it."

In January, Ms. Goodwin acknowledged that in 1987 her publisher, Simon
& Schuster, paid another author to settle accusations of plagiarism in her
book "The Fitzgeralds and the Kennedys." Then, acting to pre-empt new
accusations by Philip Nobile, a journalist, Ms. Goodwin admitted in an
interview in February that she had failed to adequately attribute dozens of
passages in the book.

At the same time, she revised earlier explanations of her mistakes, saying the
problem was not a one-time confusion about her handwritten notes but
reflected a more pervasive sloppiness. She declined to specify the sources of
the copied material or the exact number of passages, saying that her team of
four research assistants had not finished unearthing all her errors.

After her fuller disclosures, the Dole Institute at the University of Kansas
canceled an engagement for her to speak. Ms. Goodwin sought to dissuade
the institute, people involved said. Later, Senator Kennedy, a friend of hers,
called former Senator Bob Dole on her behalf, a spokesman for Mr. Dole
said. (The engagement was not renewed.) Mr. Nussbaum said Ms. Goodwin
did not ask Senator Kennedy to call.

Ms. Goodwin was also asked to take a leave of absence from "The
NewsHour," the public television program, on which she was a regular
commentator. Dan Werner, president of "The NewsHour," said some people
with the program suspected an organized e-mail campaign on her behalf was
under way.

Mr. Nussbaum said Ms. Goodwin did not know of such a campaign. Mr.
Shrum, the political consultant, did not return calls, referring them to Mr.
Nussbaum, who said only that Mr. Shrum was an old friend of Ms.
Goodwin's.

People involved with the Pulitzer Prize Board said Ms. Goodwin at first
opposed the board's suggestion that she sit out its April meeting. She later
agreed and released a letter saying that she was sitting out because the media
attention was too distracting.

Three members of the board have formed a committee to evaluate Ms.
Goodwin's case, including the accusations of plagiarism and her responses.
The committee is seeking a researcher to examine Ms. Goodwin's
scholarship, people close to the process said.

Mr. Nussbaum is dealing with the board on her behalf. He staunchly
defended Ms. Goodwin's methods of research for the book that won her a
Pulitzer Prize in 1995, "No Ordinary Time," about Franklin and Eleanor
Roosevelt.

"Under the auspices of the law firm of Ropes & Gray, `No Ordinary Time'
has been reviewed and checked," Mr. Nussbaum said. "Everything is fully
credited and attributed."

As for "The Fitzgeralds and the Kennedys," Mr. Nussbaum said Ms.
Goodwin planned to issue a corrected edition. He declined to say when it
would appear.


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I wrote Kennedys and meant Roosevelts. She wrote another book about Kennedys and had to settle plagiarism charges about them in 1987.

Detailed article on that ultimate in merging of the public and private sectors, the Carlyle Group:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i...401&s=shorrock

This group's actions (and inactions) may be the single biggest indicator of where we are headed with respect to foreign policy.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stonewall Patton on 2002-03-31 23:35 ]</font>

Sign of 4T
WTC flag raised over City Hall.

04/01/2002 09:30:32 EST
WTC Flag Raised Over N.Y. City Hall
By MICHAEL WEISSENSTEIN
Associated Press Writer

The American flag that was lifted above the wreckage of the World
Trade Center and then flew aboard Navy ships deployed in the war
against terror was raised above City Hall on Monday.

City officials and Navy officers stood at attention in a solemn,
wordless ceremony as an honor guard of police officers and
firefighters lifted the flag and bagpipers played "America the
Beautiful."

On Sept. 11, firefighters Dan McWilliams, George Johnson and Billy
Eisengrein were photographed as they raised the flag above the
smoldering rubble.

"The flag has special meaning," Fire Commissioner Nicholas
Scoppetta said before the ceremony. "It seemed to represent an
indomitable spirit, a coming back from those attacks."

The flag was sent to the USS Theodore Roosevelt in October as it
sailed toward Afghanistan. It has since flown on six other Navy
ships.

It was returned to New York last week after a ceremony aboard the
Roosevelt as it ended its six-month mission and returned to Norfolk,
Va.

At Monday's ceremony, Mayor Michael Bloomberg and other city
officials were joined by McWilliams, Johnson and Eisengrein.

Afterward, Eisengrein had little to say about his role.

"It was just three New York City firefighters who raised the flag," he
said.

The flag will fly over City Hall for one week, and then will likely
circulate among city police stations and firehouses in a case crafted
by the Navy, said Michael Handy, director of the mayor's Office of
Veterans Affairs.



Copyright 2002 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be
published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Rumor has it that the president has oral herpes.

3T or 4T?

Of course, that will depend on our reaction to this. The issue could quickly die down, which could indicate 4T. It can raise awareness of health concerns, which could also indicate 4T.

If it blows up into another "Monicagate", then it might be 3T.

My prediction is that the left will not make a big deal of this, but definitely WILL publically joke about it, as they did "pretzelgate", and it will probably be used as a banner by the left for the support of a comprehensive national health care system, and the usage of dental dams and condoms.

If the president does have oral herpes then our president seems to love the activity of muff diving. Either he cheated on his wife by performing the act on another woman, or his wife cheated on him and contracted herpes, and transmitted it to her husband.

If Bush does have oral herpes, how would this come across to Millies? Bill Clinton receiving head made people both love him and hate him. Bush GIVING head would do the same, but in a different way. Many guys might lose respect for him...while Bush's popularity among females surge. :lol:

Wait a minute...today's April Fool's Day.

Oh well. It was a funny article, though. :lol:

Hopefully, this is not an April Fool's Joke. http://www.msnbc.com/news/732351.asp?0dm=C11JT

Sign of 4T

Wallmart is now the biggest company by sales. People are getting back to basics.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...fortune_500_16

On 2002-04-01 11:20, JayN wrote:
Sign of 4T

Wallmart is now the biggest company by sales. People are getting back to basics.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...fortune_500_16

Walmart is not the salvation of the western world. Walmart's exploitation of the worker is a crime. Small businesses that have to compete head to head lose out initially. After ellimination of the competition prices are equal if not higher at the Walmart than at the stores they replace. Wages are minimal and workers are paid next to nothing while Walmart's profits go through the roof. Bigger is better until they replace all the competition then let the fun begin.

Are the Academy Awards indicative of 4T?

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/op...ists/44413.htm

On 2002-04-01 21:05, nd boom '59 wrote:

On 2002-04-01 11:20, JayN wrote:
Sign of 4T

Wallmart is now the biggest company by sales. People are getting back to basics.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...fortune_500_16

Walmart is not the salvation of the western world. Walmart's exploitation of the worker is a crime. Small businesses that have to compete head to head lose out initially. After ellimination of the competition prices are equal if not higher at the Walmart than at the stores they replace. Wages are minimal and workers are paid next to nothing while Walmart's profits go through the roof. Bigger is better until they replace all the competition then let the fun begin.

Whoa, dude! I might agree with most of what you have to say above but I wasn't talking politics or promoting Walmart as the place people should buy things. I was only noting that after several years in which technology companies have risen in value (something that indicates Third Turning economic confidence) a less economically confident public is choosing to focus on more "traditional" types of shopping more indicative of a Fourth Turning mood. That's all. Nothing sinful about highlighting that in your book, I hope. And, yes, I do have Fourth Turning concerns about the manner Walmart squeezes out competition and uses cheap Third World labor. I wouldn't mind government stepping into those areas as part of a Fourth Turning "Next New Deal" agenda.