<table width="125" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" bgcolor="#536BB0" align=center> <tr> <td align="center"> <p style="color: #ffffff;">Question of the Week</p> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <table width="121" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td align="center"> <font color='#000066'></font> </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top"> <TABLE width="121" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr rowspan="2"> <TD colspan="3" align="left"> <Font face="Arial" size="1" color="#000000"> Should Ariel Sharon be tried for war crimes? <hr color="#000000"> </FONT> </TD> </TR> <tr> <td colspan="3" valign="bottom"> <Font face="Arial" size="1" color="#000000"> Yes </font> </TD> </TR> <tr> <td colspan=3> <table border=0 cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr height=10px> <td width="5%" bgcolor=#000066>?</font></td> <td width="95%">?</td> <td><Font face="Arial" size="1" color="#000000">5%</FONT></td> </tr> </table> </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="3" valign="bottom"> <Font face="Arial" size="1" color="#000000"> No </font> </TD> </TR> <tr> <td colspan=3> <table border=0 cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr height=10px> <td width="95%" bgcolor=#000066>?</font></td> <td width="5%">?</td> <td><Font face="Arial" size="1" color="#000000">95%</FONT></td> </tr> </table> </td> </tr> </TABLE> </td> </tr> </table> </td> </tr> </table>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Wayne on 2002-04-16 16:24 ]</font>

Those polls are unscientific and are probably swamped by the most extreme fascistic supporters of Ariel Sharon.

At any rate, this is a real act of hate worthy of being condemned as much as the killing of Palestinians.

Islamic Group Claims Tunisia Synagogue Attack
Tue Apr 16,10:03 AM ET

CAIRO (Reuters) - London-based Arabic newspapers said on Tuesday a group possibly linked to Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s al Qaeda network had claimed responsibility for an explosion last week outside a Tunisian synagogue that killed 16 people.


German authorities said they had arrested a man for alleged involvement in the explosion, which they believe was a deliberate attack rather than an accident as Tunisian authorities had insisted initially.

Tunisian authorities said on Tuesday that the driver of the tanker truck, who died in the explosion of his vehicle, was a suspect, suggesting they were leaning toward the belief the blast could be a suicide bombing.

French daily newspaper Liberation reported that Tunisian President Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali had admitted to the French and German governments the blast, in Djerba, may have been a bomb.

The Arabic daily al-Hayat said it had received a statement from a group called the Islamic Army for the Liberation of Holy Sites, which said it had assigned a man named Nizar bin Mohamed Nawwar, alias Seif al-Din al-Tunisi, to stage the suicide attack in support of the Palestinians.

Al-Hayat said the group claiming responsibility for the blast was close to al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden's network blamed for the September 11 attacks on the United States.

There was no independent confirmation of the claim, and Islamist figures based in London with links to Tunisian and other Islamist groups said they doubted the authenticity of the statement issued in the group's name.

The London-based al-Quds al-Arabi also printed what appeared to be the same statement on Tuesday.

Israel began a military offensive on the West Bank on March 29 after a series of suicide bombings in the Jewish state. The offensive has sparked outrage in the Arab world and demonstrations in Europe.

Ten Germans, five Tunisians and a Frenchman were killed in the explosion of the tanker truck filled with cooking gas.

"The martyr Nizar prepared this operation on his own to present...a unique example by one youth who carried it out outside the Palestinian territories and against the Jews," the statement said, according to al-Hayat.

The statement, received by al-Hayat's offices in Islamabad, was sent on paper bearing the name "al Qaeda al Jihad," the newspaper said. It made no other reference to al Qaeda.

Saudi Islamist opposition figure Saad al-Faqih said it was unlikely al Qaeda carried out the attack.

"From my understanding of the way al Qaeda works, I can say the statement is fabricated. Al Qaeda does not aim at religious sites," he told Reuters.

"It's either the work of an individual, who became upset by the Israeli offensive, or an intelligence body, to blame Islamic groups," he added.

On 2002-04-16 16:18, John Wayne wrote:
<table width="125" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" bgcolor="#536BB0" align=center> <tr> <td align="center"> <p style="color: #ffffff;">Question of the Week</p> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <table width="121" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td align="center"> <font color='#000066'></font> </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top"> <TABLE width="121" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr rowspan="2"> <TD colspan="3" align="left"> <Font face="Arial" size="1" color="#000000"> Should Ariel Sharon be tried for war crimes? <hr color="#000000"> </FONT> </TD> </TR> <tr> <td colspan="3" valign="bottom"> <Font face="Arial" size="1" color="#000000"> Yes </font> </TD> </TR> <tr> <td colspan=3> <table border=0 cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr height=10px> <td width="5%" bgcolor=#000066>?</font></td> <td width="95%">?</td> <td><Font face="Arial" size="1" color="#000000">5%</FONT></td> </tr> </table> </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="3" valign="bottom"> <Font face="Arial" size="1" color="#000000"> No </font> </TD> </TR> <tr> <td colspan=3> <table border=0 cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr height=10px> <td width="95%" bgcolor=#000066>?</font></td> <td width="5%">?</td> <td><Font face="Arial" size="1" color="#000000">95%</FONT></td> </tr> </table> </td> </tr> </TABLE> </td> </tr> </table> </td> </tr> </table>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Wayne on 2002-04-16 16:24 ]</font>

Whatever... it's just a web poll (I have to agree w/Sbarro for the reasons such a ratio would be invalid); in light of all the news I still feel that both sides are guilty of an insane amount of injustice, etc and although the israelis seem to be more interested in peace than the palestinians, neither will allow anything CLOSE to peace in the foreseeable future.

At the moment, a Gallup poll (NOT a sleazy webpoll) from http://www.gallup.com shows that the majority of Americans no longer believe we're in a recession.

3T or 4T?

On 2002-04-16 09:01, jds1958xg wrote:

Looks to me like a *great* idea, except that there's no way the Islamic World would *ever* accept it. Of course, that's their problem, and their shortsightedness. On the other hand, I would not be surprised if Israel would at least be willing to consider the idea of building the Temple alongside the Dome of the Rock mosque (hopefully with a nice, thick reinforced concrete wall between them, topped with concertina wire!).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jds1958xg on 2002-04-16 09:08 ]</font>

Hmmm--actually, only a very few extremely Haredi Jews would be willing to rebuild the Temple at all. Temple cult and sacrifice are not part of Rabbinic Judaism--which is the Jewish religion that was invented after the destruction of the Temple by Vespasian and Titus in the year 70 of the Common Era.

The Rambam (Moses Maimonides)explained the lack of desire by the Jews of his era (Spain and Egypt in the 11th Century) for a return to the Temple cult by saying that the Eternal established the temple cult because the people of those times needed something that physical in order to be brought near to the Eternal. However, Jews since the destruction of the second temple have found a different way to be brought near (prayer and study) and no longer need sacrifice.

It is interesting, because many fundamentalist and/or premillenialist Christians believe that all Jews want the restoration of the temple. Actually, most of us do not want restoration of the temple cult.

The Western Wall holds for us a connection with the past and is a physical expression of the longing for our land that we carried through the centuries of expulsions and wanderings. We pray there to connect with that--not because G-d is more present to us there than anywhere else.

Hurrah!
The Recessions over.
Here in Utah however, even though the Recession is over, local Food Banks in the metro areas are seeing a 115% increase in families. Seems they can't afford the morgage payments on their homes and their car payments AND buy food.

I think this country is going to have a hard time buying its' way back to the prosperity we experienced in the 90's.

On 2002-04-16 18:10, cbailey wrote:
Hurrah!
The Recessions over.
Here in Utah however, even though the Recession is over, local Food Banks in the metro areas are seeing a 115% increase in families. Seems they can't afford the morgage payments on their homes and their car payments AND buy food.

I think this country is going to have a hard time buying its' way back to the prosperity we experienced in the 90's.

Welcome to the "Roaring Twenty" Hundreds.

A comment on the Israeli offensive in the West Bank with respect to the moral arguments that make Israeli action equivalent to terrorist homicide bombings:

Disclaimer: I do not agree with many of Sharon's policies and I would not have voted for him,

However, the IDF's offensive in the West Bank was designed as a response to the homicide bombings that in March alone killed 130 Israeli citizens and wounded many more. (Because of Israel's small population this is more per capita than the United States lost in 9/11 terrorist murders). The IDF decision to go house to house, thus putting IDF soldiers at great risk, was a decision made in order to limit civilian casualties precisely because Ramallah and Jennin are densely populated.
It is a double standard to excuse Arafat his Fatah movement, Hammas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Terrorist Brigade etc. for using Palestinian civilians as human shields and condemn Israeli forces for unavoidable civilain casualties. It is also a double standard to excuse the middle-east potentates for their support of terrorism against Israel and condemn Israel for defending citizens against attack in their own lands.

The government of Israel is doing what any government is supposed to do--defend citizens against attack. The IDF has done this with the most concern about civilain casualties that any army can. It would have been far easier to safeguard the lives of IDF soldiers and simply bomb Ramallah and Jenin back to the stone age. The IDF chose to do it the hard way. It would have been easier for the IDF to give Arafat his wish to be a martyr. Again, the IDF chose to do it the hard way. In the process much evidence has been uncovered that Arafat has been saying one thing and doing another. He has said he condemns the homicide bombings but has supported the rewarding of their families with money. Who is the terrorist here? There is a difference between the regreted and accidental killing of civilians in war and the targeting of civilians.

Israel will withdraw from the West Bank cities. They will pull out of the settlements as they have in other places. But they will not do so when their citizens within their own borders are not secure.
The Israelis understand that the survival of their nation is at stake. Much of the Arab world--leader and civilian alike--have as their goal the destruction of the state of Israel. If you want to see for yourself, you need not even read Arabic--simple log onto the web sites of the Organizations. It is all there in plain English.

Israel will not leave its citizens undefended. If there is to be peace that much must be understood.

Elisheva LEvin

Xer of Evil wrote:

in response a little baiting by firemind:

XOE: Hint: "FANTASY"... "REALITY"...

Not sure if this refers to my nudity or Freddy Kruger...


Now if you were talking about nudity, then I will admit that fantasy is often better than reality, and I will leave the details to the imagination. :smile:


XoE

... and just when the plot thickens ...


:grin:

Eli:

Israel will withdraw from the West Bank cities. They will pull out of the settlements as they have in other places. But they will not do so when their citizens within their own borders are not secure.

You're mixing two separate issues here. One is the recent action of the IDF. The other is the long-term process of Jewish settlement of the West Bank. While the army may indeed withdraw from West Bank cities, the settlements will likely continue. Since it is the presence and behavior of the settlers that is being protested by Palestinian terrorists, in that they are being driven from their homes and land by civilians encouraged by the government and backed by the IDF (NOT by this invasion), their continued presence is counterproductive to Israeli security within Israeli borders, which, please note, do not encompass the West Bank.

This is evidence for 3T. Are we serious about getting this guy or not? :???:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/739760.asp?0bl=-0

On 2002-04-17 13:25, Kiff '61 wrote:
This is evidence for 3T. Are we serious about getting this guy or not? :???:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/739760.asp?0bl=-0

I think that we better get serious. I would just love to see OBL turned into shish-kabob (sp?).

Oh, and just because I am not refuting anything in your last post, Eric, does not mean that it was not riddled with factual errors. It was, as are most of your posts on this issue.

You are just giving up because you know you have nothing valid to say in response to my arguments, firemind. :razz:

Get back to me when you are ready to take a more rational stand on this issue. Hint: allness is an illness.

On 2001-09-23 18:54, William Strauss wrote:
Let's use this topic to identify specific elements of American society--politics, economics, culture, religion, family life, and more--that suggest (1) we may still be in a Third Turning, or, alternatively (2) the Fourth Turning has started. These can be items in the news, large and small--or aspects of your own daily lives that offer useful pieces of evidence of either a Third or Fourth Turning.

Please, let's keep all posts on this topic on this point only.

From the Pizza dude! I agree!

Dr. Laura Supports Dr. Dobson:
"Take Your Kids Out Of (California) Public Schools"
Parents Flock To Support Separation Of SCHOOL And State
http://www.sepschool.org/press_relea...002_04_15.html

Definite 4th Turning

More on our Global Imperator for the 21st century, William J. (buuurrrppp) Bennett. (Kool-Aid and ham sandwiches will be dispensed at the Imperial Granaries):

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/bottoms3.html

(For info and discussion)

All God?s Chil'un Got Agendas

by John Bottoms

<http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/image002.jpg> In his recent article for ?Laissez Faire Books,? David Brown accuses Burt Blumert and the writers at Lew Rockwell of sacrificing truth to ideology regarding the War on Terrorism, and falsely accusing Bill Bennett?s AVOT of seeking to stamp out free speech. Brown previously admonished Blumert and Justin Raimondo of antiwar.com of using hyperbole to the same ends. I?ve read AVOT?s websites, and it?s true that nowhere do they suggest that anti-war types be rounded up, imprisoned, or otherwise violated. Brown even found an innocent Bennett quote that war critics ?are exercising a Constitutional right and that is fine.? My own search came up with this more ominous Bennett quote: ?It?s your constitutional right to criticize. But when you criticize, you take the consequences for your words. Your words may be responded to and your words can be interpreted in such ways that they hurt the national resolve.? One shudders at exactly what these ?consequences? might be.

But the map is not the territory, and what Bill Bennett says is a long way from what he does. As drug czar under Bush I, Bennett gave countless speeches supporting his drug war, but his actions have left thousands rotting in prison because of America?s failed drug war, militarized the police and their jackbooted antics, incarcerated a large percentage of young black males for victimless crimes, abolished financial privacy, and generally moved America toward a police state. Make no mistake, these are criminal acts, and the kingpins of these activities are criminals, especially Bill Bennett. And he wasn?t just following orders. Am I using hyperbole here or just calling a spade a spade? You decide.

<http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/image004.jpg> In contrast, whatever you think of the intellectual honesty of Burt Blumert and the other writers at LewRockwell.com or Justin Raimondo, they don?t kill innocents (though Justin?s picture might leave some doubt), they don?t imprison drug users, and they don?t sponsor midnight raids at people?s homes. If they have hidden agendas, or if they engage in hyperbole, their readers are free to figure that out for themselves and judge things accordingly. Personally, I?ll take Rockwell-writer Jeff Elkins? ?Thank You, William J. Bennett? agenda over that of Bill Bennett any day.

Bennett says he?s going to ?educate the public? but his history is one of incarcerating it. So when Bennett?s AVOT threatens to ?wage holy war against those who would weaken America?s resolve to fight terrorism,? we?re right to be scared. Bennett?s tool is violence, indirectly at the taxpayer-supported, centralizing, anti-parent Education Department, or more directly as drug czar. Rockwell?s tool is persuasion. You choose whose ?agenda? is preferable.

This is not an ad hominem attack on Bill Bennett. I?m not saying that Bennett?s opinions about the War on Terrorism are wrong because he?s a bad guy, only that he may someday give the order to have you thrown into the gulag, because that?s his modus operandi. Or, as de facto propaganda czar, he?s helping to create an environment in which some other thug might give the order. Some might accuse me of pursuing my anarchist anti-drug-war agenda at Bill Bennett?s expense. Fine, let them explain how the drug war has made America a better place, and provide a moral defense for imprisoning drug users and those who sell to them. As Dave Barry says, I?m not making this up.

Bennett?s (and Brown?s) main point is that anti-war writers such as Justin Raimondo, Lew Rockwell and Burt Blumert may weaken America?s resolve to fight terrorism, and the western world is pitted in a struggle for survival against the forces of radical Islam. The anti-war writers see terrorism as a criminal conspiracy which should be dealt with by international policing and an engaged public, and when they question attacking Iraq and other countries, they?re only trying to weaken America?s resolve to create a global empire. Whichever world view one accepts, Bill Bennett is grievously ?damaged goods? and a poor choice for advocate.

John Bottoms is a consulting engineer and writer in Phoenix, Arizona

Author?s note: Unfortunately, AVOI and emperor.org don?t really exist. They?re just my spoof on AVOT and empower.org. But authors are encouraged to ?join? and write articles under the AVOI header. Just right-click on the graphic and ?copy? the GIF file for later use. And any ambitious people out there have my full blessing in creating a real ?Americans for Victory over Intimidation.?

April 18, 2002

The above post definitely sounds 4t.
On the other hand Bennet has always been vigirous in support of censorship on TV and movies and music. So he may just be repeating his typical 3t pattern.

If you are going to post something, please indicate whether 3t or 4t. It would be good to keep the discussion on topic.

Sbarro wrote:

Dr. Laura Supports Dr. Dobson:
"Take Your Kids Out Of (California) Public Schools"
Parents Flock To Support Separation Of SCHOOL And State


Definite 4th Turning

I would put this firmly in 3T. It's the culture wars on steroids.

• Upside: At least they'll be doing it on their own nickel.
• Downside: We're rushing headlong into elective segregation.

Obviously, the hyper-religous have decided the rest of us are not worth saving. I wish them well, and bon voyage ... and please relocate to the Red Zone. Further instructions will be forthcoming. :grin:


_________________
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together :wink:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David '47 on 2002-04-18 06:30 ]</font>

Last night, I finally got a look at the Wednesday edition of 'USA Today'. There were several editorials that all pointed squarely towards us still being in late 3T. One, in fact, said that all it would take to restart the Culture Wars *full blast* at this point would be for one of the three oldest members of the Supreme Court (2 GI's, 1 Silent in that group) to retire this summer. Another spoke of how thoroughly we've 'gotten back to (3T) normal'. Much more such evidence, and 9/11 will start looking less like the Stock Market Crash and more like Harper's Ferry, at least to me. After all, the immediate aftermath of Harper's Ferry did give the country a brief foretaste of the 4T to come, before America reverted back to 3T for a short while longer.

On 2002-04-18 06:28, David '47 wrote:



Obviously, the hyper-religous have decided the rest of us are not worth saving. I wish them well, and bon voyage ... and please relocate to the Red Zone.

Here in the Blue Zone Minnesota the hyper-progressive are also setting up their own schools; but as Minnesota has a history of "charter schools", they often do it with the taxpayer's dime. Some have had great success serving the Spanish speaking Minnesotans; others serving the "greener" sort have failed at education of any sort and were disbanded, and some have turned out to be Enrons of Education with Arthur Andersen accounting.

The private schools and home schoolers are now taking more and more of the top places in State-wide academic and athletic contests...public schools find it "unfair" that this children are able to focus and actually be above average in Lake Woebegone Country. I say good luck to them and may many more abandon the industrial model of public education with its "plants" and "unions", et al. be it at home, in private school, in a charter school or a magnet.

On 2002-04-18 00:54, Stonewall Patton wrote:
More on our Global Imperator for the 21st century, William J. (buuurrrppp) Bennett. (Kool-Aid and ham sandwiches will be dispensed at the Imperial Granaries):

Dangit, Stonewall, I will never be able to eat ham sandwiches and drink Kool-Aid with the kiddies anymore and still have a clean conscience. :wink:

Oh, and to stay on-topic, I guess that means we be 4T. :wink:



_________________
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure....You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world." -- Nelson Mandela

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kiff '61 on 2002-04-18 07:08 ]</font>

On 2002-04-18 06:28, David '47 wrote:
"Obviously, the hyper-religous have decided the rest of us are not worth saving. I wish them well, and bon voyage ... and please relocate to the Red Zone."

This Red Zone/Blue Zone thing, insofar as education is concerned, reminds a lot of a government sponsored television ad campaign that ran not too long ago.

Here is where I went to school previous to all the desegration nonsense that ripped young kids away from their nieghborhoods and friends (reminded me of the Pol Pot idiocy without the bloodshed), previous to all the Barneyization and Political Correctness junk, and previous to the mass exodus of sensible folks who just wanted Johnny to learn to read, for crying out loud.

Current Performance:
Rating: Academic Emergency
Number of Performance Standards Met: 5 of 27


Here, on the other hand, is the gawd-forsaken "Red Zone" where my kids are going to school.

Current Performance:
Rating: Continuous Improvement
Number of Performance Standards Met: 17 of 27


And according the Ohio Department of Education Blue Zone taxpayers spend $6,954 per student for this wonderful "Academic Emergency," while we podunks, out in the Red Zone, shell out a mere $5,249/student for "Continuous Improvement."

Oh yes, you all remember the ad campaign... This is your brain, and this is your brain in Blue Zone schools! Sizzle, sizzle... :lol:


p.s. And don't give me this crap about "rest of us are not worth saving," where in the hell did Clinton/Gore send their kids to school, huh? And just about every other hypocrite liberal Democrat in Congress?





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2002-04-18 07:53 ]</font>

On 2002-04-18 05:32, Sbarro wrote:

The above post definitely sounds 4t.
On the other hand Bennet has always been vigirous in support of censorship on TV and movies and music. So he may just be repeating his typical 3t pattern.

If you are going to post something, please indicate whether 3t or 4t. It would be good to keep the discussion on topic.

Uh, Pizza Hut...we have had vigorous discussion about Bill Bennett on this thread and that post was a continuation. And do you have any further instructions for me, sir? Shall I bring your (pizza delivery) car around?

Mr. Lamb, would not the 'Generations' or 'Society, Family and You' Forums have been a better place for this post than the 'Evidence That We're in a 3 or 4T' thread? We need to at least try to stay on topic here, as others have said.

"Mr. Lamb, would not the 'Generations' or 'Society, Family and You' Forums have been a better place for this post than the 'Evidence That We're in a 3 or 4T' thread? We need to at least try to stay on topic here, as others have said."

Seeing how a certain challenge (or in other cases, just plain innuendo) is place upon the table in this thread, how do you realistically expect that it could be challenged or refuted by going to another thread? And just how could I (or anyone else) reasonable do this technically?

And furthermore, I did not bring the subject matter up (as I haven't posted in this thread for some time now), I only responded to it (as did Mr. Saari), so why do you call me on this "stay on topic" nonsense?

In conclusion, I find your requsest questionable at best, and at worst, totally unrealistic and quite possibly a little self-serving given that you might not have liked what I posted!

So there. :razz:




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2002-04-18 08:20 ]</font>