On 2002-04-18 08:19, Marc Lamb wrote:

"Mr. Lamb, would not the 'Generations' or 'Society, Family and You' Forums have been a better place for this post than the 'Evidence That We're in a 3 or 4T' thread? We need to at least try to stay on topic here, as others have said."

Seeing how a certain challenge (or in other cases, just plain innuendo) is place upon the table in this thread, how do you realistically expect that it could be challenged or refuted?

And furthermore, I did not bring the subject matter up (as I haven't posted in this thread for some time now), I only responded to it (as did Mr. Saari), so why do you call me on this "stay on topic" nonsense?

In conclusion, I find your requsest questionable at best, and at worst, totally unrealistic and quite possibly a little self-serving given that you might not have liked what I posted!

So there. :razz:

I am going to rise in Mr. Lamb's defense here. I do not know where else he could have responded to David's topical post such that it would have been understood. And what is it with you guys this morning? Buy looser jockey shorts, will you? Or does this have something to do with Mr. Meece's five planet conjunction? I will ask him about it...on another thread of course -- don't worry!
Oh, keep my post on topic? This tight-assed behavior is definitely 4T. So there!

Here is proof of 4T: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Apr17.html

Since when does instituting a "command charged with defending the continental United States," mean we've moved into a fourth turn, Mr. Reed. As I recall, the first thing FDR did was ship General Douglas MacArthur off to the Phillipines, and then slash the military buget in half, in 1933.

Nah, I think I'll stay with your opinion that since our military starated "targeting" innocent women and children for "murder" in Afghanistan, a real sign of the fourth turn will be when we decide to get rid of Rumsfeld, Sharon and all those "war criminals." Then we be 4T! :smile:

On 2002-04-18 10:09, Marc Lamb wrote:

Nah, I think I'll stay with your opinion that since our military starated "targeting" innocent women and children for "murder" in Afghanistan, a real sign of the fourth turn will be when we decide to get rid of Rumsfeld, Sharon and all those "war criminals." Then we be 4T! :smile:

Marc, I was only stating a possible scenario.

On 2002-04-18 10:09, Marc Lamb wrote:

Since when does instituting a "command charged with defending the continental United States," mean we've moved into a fourth turn, Mr. Reed. As I recall, the first thing FDR did was ship General Douglas MacArthur off to the Phillipines, and then slash the military buget in half, in 1933.

First of all, it is 1930, not 1933. But anyways, the reason why I stated this as a possible sign of a 4T is that this is the largest military overhaul in the past 50 years. But anyways, I'm all for a homeland D.

On 2002-04-18 10:18, madscientist wrote:

On 2002-04-18 10:09, Marc Lamb wrote:

Nah, I think I'll stay with your opinion that since our military starated "targeting" innocent women and children for "murder" in Afghanistan, a real sign of the fourth turn will be when we decide to get rid of Rumsfeld, Sharon and all those "war criminals." Then we be 4T! :smile:

Marc, I was only stating a possible scenario.

On 2002-04-18 10:24, madscientist wrote:

On 2002-04-18 10:09, Marc Lamb wrote:

Since when does instituting a "command charged with defending the continental United States," mean we've moved into a fourth turn, Mr. Reed. As I recall, the first thing FDR did was ship General Douglas MacArthur off to the Phillipines, and then slash the military buget in half, in 1933.

First of all, it is 1930, not 1933. But anyways, the reason why I stated this as a possible sign of a 4T is that this is the largest military overhaul in the past 50 years. But anyways, I'm all for a homeland D.

Doesn't it occur to you that maybe you should've included this post in your last one?

Does the term "post-inflation" mean anything to you? :wink:

On 2002-04-18 11:04, Marc Lamb wrote:


Doesn't it occur to you that maybe you should've included this post in your last one?

Does the term "post-inflation" mean anything to you? :wink:

Alright, you got me there. :razz:

An article from TooGoodReports.com that I agree with? I never imagined that this would be possible.

http://toogoodreports.com/column/gen...w/20020417.htm

On 2002-04-18 10:24, madscientist wrote:

On 2002-04-18 10:09, Marc Lamb wrote:

Since when does instituting a "command charged with defending the continental United States," mean we've moved into a fourth turn, Mr. Reed. As I recall, the first thing FDR did was ship General Douglas MacArthur off to the Phillipines, and then slash the military buget in half, in 1933.

First of all, it is 1930, not 1933. But anyways, the reason why I stated this as a possible sign of a 4T is that this is the largest military overhaul in the past 50 years. But anyways, I'm all for a homeland D.

So is it merely a 'possible sign' (which i can accept) or conclusive 'proof' as you said earlier (which i find hard to believe)?

It is a possible sign of 4T.

On 2002-04-18 12:05, madscientist wrote:
An article from TooGoodReports.com that I agree with? I never imagined that this would be possible.

http://toogoodreports.com/column/gen...w/20020417.htm

That article is one of the most paranoia I have seen, I am not going to comment further on it.

Enforced conformity on T4T discussion boards to stay on topic? I would say that is definitely 4T, except such advice has been thrown around since the forum started in 1997.

I prefer to respond to Marc's challenge. You forget to take into account Marc that many blue zone schools are not in poor urban areas and red zone ones are not. In fact, that is one reason they are blue zone, because poor people vote Democratic.

Show me how "political correctness" is responsible for poor school performance. It seems a stretch to me. what studies did you read that show that school bussing is now causing school performance to decline? I thought bussing was over.

And if you want to direct me to another thread, please do :smile:. I don't want to interfere with the emerging 4T mindset to keep everything in functional order.

"I prefer to respond to Marc's challenge," says Mr. Meece. So he writes, "You forget to take into account Marc that many blue zone schools are not in poor urban areas and red zone ones are not. In fact, that is one reason they are blue zone, because poor people vote Democratic."

I really haven't a clue what your driving at here, but two things are at work in the dismal failure of most "Red Zone" school districts: 1. Entrenched "union" interests that could care a less about performance and, 2. The demand and/or belief of the left that only money can solve the educational "performance" issue. To wit, the Kansas City, Missouri, School District disaster that is only now meekly resolving itself.

I will add a caveat here on the politics of the educational issue: Conservatives, I believe, have not really come forward with a solution to this part of the issue at all.

"Show me how "political correctness" is responsible for poor school performance. It seems a stretch to me."

It's called "outcome-based education" for one. And "multicultural cirriculum" for another. Both of which I would think you would cheer greatly. But I call them PC run amuck idiocy.

"[W]hat studies did you read that show that school bussing is now causing school performance to decline? I thought bussing was over."

Yeah, and Pol Pot's relocation program is over too. Only Columbus, Ohio remains as backward as Cambodia in the same relative way; Except for the fact that Columbus was once a really great place to live and go to school. As far as articles go, I read the Columbus Dispatch every day, in addition to having actually seen the results first hand since the mid-seventies and seeing the current performance results. :smile:

My state is probably the Reddest Zone in the U.S. It is the most Republican (70% of the voters call themselves Repubs), and we're talking CONSERVATIVE Republican. Whites and Religious Conservatives make up the vast majority of the population.

Quality Counts 2001
/Education Week

Utah Report Card:
4th graders "proficient" in reading....28%
8th graders "proficient" in reading....31%
8th graders "proficient" in writing....21%
4th graders "proficient" in math.......23%
8th graders "proficient" in math.......24%
8th graders "proficient" in science....32%

Do Red Zones have the better schools?
Nothing here to make you believe that.

cbailey says,
"Do Red Zones have the better schools?
Nothing here to make you believe that."

Dave '47 says,
"Obviously, the hyper-religous have decided the rest of us are not worth saving. I wish them well, and bon voyage ... and please relocate to the Red Zone. Further instructions will be forthcoming."

Marc says,
Maybe you should wait for further instructions from Dave! :smile:

We have enough Hyper-religious who have decided the rest of us are not worth saving in Red Zone Utah. Thanks, but no thanks :smile:.

Oh Boy.
Another 3T L.A. Murder Trial
Robert Blake, "Baretta" (for those of you old enough to remember, or "In Cold Blood."
The O.J. talking heads are lining up tonight.

The teacher shortage is so severe that teacher's unions efforts to keep out people from other professions are being overcome, and people from other professions are becoming teachers.

I have a friend, who we can call Connie, who has, for personal reasons, left the IT industry to become a high school math teacher. She has just finished her "student teacher" stint, and has kept me up-to-date on her experiences so far.

While trying to be polite to and supportive of the other teachers, she has been amazed at the low expectations, lack of enthusiasm and downright unprofessionalism of her new peers. Connie has tried to get along with the teacher she has been a student teacher with, but he has gradually come to hate her, as she keeps accidently making him look bad by her ingrained work habits and enthusiasm.

It matters to Connie that the students actually understand the math that is being taught, and she tries hard to get all of the students to understand the concepts. The regular teacher, on the other hand, does not put much effort into teaching the kids who are struggling.

The students have noticed the difference, and have grown to like Connie better, prefering to come to her with questions rather than their teacher.

A couple of weeks ago, the regular teacher wound up on jury duty and was out for two weeks, allowing Connie to run the classes as she wanted. She used the opportunity to make a lot of progress with the kids, who openly told her that they did not want their old teacher back. Kids who were close to failing started getting good grades on quizes.

When the teacher got back, he was upset that the grades had shifted upwards. He did not believe that so many students understood the concepts, and spent an entire class verbally questioning students. Connie kept her head down and pretended to be focused on grading papers, but she was secretly cheering as student after student answered the questions correctly.

Even before talking to Connie, I have been convinced (from my own experiences in public schools) that the quality of our schools is not what we should demand. I had to put up with math teachers who didn't know the material.

Just one of many examples I could give: a junior high math teacher taught us the number 1487 rounded to the nearest thousand is 2000. Her rounding method involved first rounding the number to the nearest ten (1490), then rounding THAT number to the nearest hundred (1500), then rounding THAT number to the nearest thousand (2000). I tried to explain to her that she was wrong, and she belittled me.

For a math teacher to be this ignorant of the subject she is teaching SHOULD be unacceptable. This kind of incompetence would be quickly exposed in other professions.

I have many other examples from my own experience in public schools of poor teachers, like the social studies teacher who thought the word "satellite" had no meaning outside the phrase "satellite nation", and refused to let me show him a dictionary, encouraging the other students to laugh at my declaration that the moon was a satellite of the Earth. I had a science teacher once who, on a day that a solar eclipse happened, asked me "How do you know?" when I informed people that the eclipse would end at a certain precise minute. It was news to him that the start and end times of eclipses could be predicted accurately thousands of years in advance.

All of this happened in the public school system of a well-to-do, very "Blue Zone" suburb. I can only imagine what schools in poorer districts are like.

Eric can toe the teachers union's party line all he wants, but I know from experience that public teaching could DEFINITELY use competition to weed out the bad apples and encourage teachers to do their best. I know it is a very hard job, and I'd love to see teachers paid salaries similar to the private sector, but I don't see that happening if we continue with the same model that we have now.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: firemind on 2002-04-19 06:26 ]</font>

firemind's dissertaion on the quality of teachers ignored one simple point: burn-out. I agree that too many teachers are less than ept, maybe even inept, but many others have just been beaten into the ground. They can't quit - yet, because they haven't achieved the time required for retirement. And they shouldn't continue, because they hate their jobs. Catch 22 in action.


A lot of the hate and discontent comes from the continuous micromanagement offered by members of a generous public, who all seem to know how to do it so much better. Why are only public employees are subjected to this level of continuous scutiny? Are there no inept IT managers, or grocery clerks? Ask yourself whether you would be willing to live your life in a bubble, being criticized for every mistake, but never getting much in the way of support for the things you do right. If so, teaching may be for you.


BTW, I tried it and moved on.

While I sympathize with much of what David says, I would pick nits with the following:

On 2002-04-19 08:29, David '47 wrote:
Why are only public employees are subjected to this level of continuous scutiny?

Huhh? This is a very broad statement, especially since David has expanded the subject from teachers only to all public employees. It is easy to find counterexamples.

Is the INS as inept as it is due to "continuous scutiny"? I don't think so. Just the opposite, in actuality; since the general voting population never has to deal with the INS, but generally only powerless immigrants have to deal with it, it has been out of the spotlight and has been allowed to become a mess.

Many realms of the public sector, likewise, have no "continuous scutiny" worth mentioning, being immune from both market pressures and public attention.

David is right that teaching is not like this, because, of course, the general public has frequent dealings with the public education system, and so, while it largely lacks market mechanisms, it at least has public attention.

Also, his very example of "burn out" is well known in the private sector as well.

Institutions that discourage people from moving on to new things when they get really burned out are bad, in general.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: firemind on 2002-04-19 09:08 ]</font>

David '47 claims,
"They [teachers] can't quit - yet, because they haven't achieved the time required for retirement. And they shouldn't continue, because they hate their jobs. Catch 22 in action."

First of all, according to the left, unions, and Brian Rush et al, only EVIL CORPORATIONS enslave human beings this way. Government, accordingly, sets them free. What seems to be the problem here?

Secondly, don't teachers get three months of paid leave each year (that's summertime, folks), in which to recharge those children-enduring batteries? Should we give them, say, six months on the dole to achieve this?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2002-04-19 09:26 ]</font>

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=27290

. Iraq link to OKC,
Sept. 11 attacks?
Attorney will discuss 'mountain' of evidence against Baghdad

This really feels like a transmogrification from 3rd Turning "isolated event" thinking to 4th Turning "Get all our enemies" thinking .




Posted

"Iraq link to OKC"

Prior to reading the link, I could hardly be more skeptical of that than I am. Why would McVeigh, who served against Iraq in the Gulf War, ever work for Iraq? He certainly wouldn't have needed Iraq's help to do what he did. This whole notion is just wierd.

Now, I'll read it. It's gonna take a lot to convince me, though.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: firemind on 2002-04-19 10:24 ]</font>

Firemind, please note that I am not endorsing this theory.

I'm only using it as an example of how what becomes unthinkable in an Unraveling is entertained with relatively little skepticism in the Fourth. People are more likely to connect events to each other than in the Third.