http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992200

Fourth Turning sign-

China may soon leapfrog US in Internet users.
That will allow more people to access outside world for information. They can get access to "forbidden" information and avoid "firewalls" through "innocent" servers.

Democracy- maybe or maybe not. But it will definitely bring a revolution to 4th Turning China..when it enters the 4th.

Stonewall...what you say seems to have some truth to it. I encourage you not to give up in your search for it. We may never know the whole thing but that doesn't mean it won't come out in drips every here and then . It just means being alert to developments in these areas instead of zzzzzz all the time with our news. That requires going to alternative news sites-even extreme sites like communist, socialist, or "patriot" sites. The usefulness of the extremes is that sometimes the "vigorous center" which believes in liberty can decay into the
stagnant "center" of tyranny- the usefulness of extremist political ideologies are that they are the alarm button for those who are otherwise "centrist" politically like myself.

Iran and China form Bilateral relations.

The new Axis confronting the US may be China-North Korea-Iran-Iraq. That's why the US has to go after Iraq as fast as possible. Before the new "allies " of China have nuclear weapons and the ability to blackmail the US and its allies in the Middle East.

Our real allies like Jordan, Turkey, and Israel. Not the pretend ones like Saudi or Egypt.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp.../asia_101159_1

On 2002-04-23 21:25, JayN wrote:

Stonewall...what you say seems to have some truth to it. I encourage you not to give up in your search for it. We may never know the whole thing but that doesn't mean it won't come out in drips every here and then . It just means being alert to developments in these areas instead of zzzzzz all the time with our news. That requires going to alternative news sites-even extreme sites like communist, socialist, or "patriot" sites. The usefulness of the extremes is that sometimes the "vigorous center" which believes in liberty can decay into the
stagnant "center" of tyranny- the usefulness of extremist political ideologies are that they are the alarm button for those who are otherwise "centrist" politically like myself.

Iran and China form Bilateral relations.

The new Axis confronting the US may be China-North Korea-Iran-Iraq. That's why the US has to go after Iraq as fast as possible. Before the new "allies " of China have nuclear weapons and the ability to blackmail the US and its allies in the Middle East.

Our real allies like Jordan, Turkey, and Israel. Not the pretend ones like Saudi or Egypt.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp.../asia_101159_1

Huh? That's all well and good, Jay, but that's not even what I am talking about. I am talking about a documented instance where our governmental servants deliberately lied in a court room throwing the fate of an American citizen in jeopardy. It is certainly not the first time that this has happened but a people who gave a damn about their liberty would ensure that it is the last. Public service is supposed to be an honor and, when questioned, our servants are to provide the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. They are to make like robots and spit out the information without filtering it in any way, much less altering it. Once they commence to filter and alter, they cease to be our servants and we the rulers become the ruled. And this is totally unsatisfactory. Yes, I am aware that most Americans do not give a damn that they are ruled but I am simply citing the latest example of the arrogance or our rulers for the benefit of posterity whom, I hope, will once again be self-governing and sovereign.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stonewall Patton on 2002-04-23 21:44 ]</font>

<table class='Wf' border=0 align='center' width='100%' cellspacing=0 cellpadding=3 nowrap> <tr><td><pre>
Western Union Telegram

TO: STONEWALL PATTON stop
FROM: CyKc HEADQUARTERS

Stoney: stop
JAYN stop BUSH OPERATIVE stop SENT AS DECOY stop

"Jordan, Turkey, and Israel Saudi Egypt" stop
ALL PART OF BUSH PLAN TO DESTROY AMERIKA stop

BUSH WANTS ALL OIL FOR LEGACY AND stop...

SMALL TRILATERALIST ISLAND IN PACIFIC stop

JAYN IS BUSH OPERATIVE DISENGAGE AT ONCE stop

signed:
Cynthia KcKinney STOP

</pre></td></tr></table>

Hi

It's my understanding, from the way I studied the circumstances, that the most likely ultimate cause of the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks was none other than the cause of Upperclass Self-Interest. The CIA created Mr. Bean-Bag Laden and funded him through US government payoffs, Saudi oil money, and the poppy trade. Is more really needed for being said on this?

Did the US government know about September 11 in advance? Not if Donald Rumsfeld was sitting in the Pentagon when the plane came in. But was is clear is that the US government may have known something was going to happen. And they may have had some detailed information.

The Russians (If I believed in God I would say may thier souls be blessed)warned the US about a plot to use 25 Arab suicide-hijackers to fly US airlines into different targets. What did the government do with the information? The denial of Marc Lamb and others with thier "nah, nyah,nah, nyah, nah" thumbing thier noses instead of adressing specific questions shows the idiocy of thier attitude. Stonewall and Jayn, you are both right to some extent. To what only time will time.

And for those who can't stand it:
Go eat pizza. Scientific studies reveal Pizza is good food for thought.

Michael "Sbarro" Epstien

PS: Yasir Arafat is a leader of a great revolution against the capitalist-supported "Israel". Here's hoping the intifatah goes global.

On 2002-04-23 22:08, Marc Lamb wrote:
<table class='Wf' border=0 align='center' width='100%' cellspacing=0 cellpadding=3 nowrap> <tr><td><pre>
Western Union Telegram

TO: STONEWALL PATTON stop
FROM: CyKc HEADQUARTERS

Stoney: stop
JAYN stop BUSH OPERATIVE stop SENT AS DECOY stop

"Jordan, Turkey, and Israel Saudi Egypt" stop
ALL PART OF BUSH PLAN TO DESTROY AMERIKA stop

BUSH WANTS ALL OIL FOR LEGACY AND stop...

SMALL TRILATERALIST ISLAND IN PACIFIC stop

JAYN IS BUSH OPERATIVE DISENGAGE AT ONCE stop

signed:
Cynthia KcKinney STOP

</pre></td></tr></table>

:lol:

Another piece of evidence for 4T:

Today I opened my newspaper to two articles on the same page. One headline was: Right Wing Movements on the Rise In Europe. This article was discussing the La Pen candidacy in France. It also discussed similar and less publicized right wing movements in Belgium and the Netherlands (of all places!).

The second article was about the increasing number of attacks on Jews in Europe--especially in France and Belgium.

My comment: It looks like Europe is going crazy again. THe interesting thing is that it is the same kind of "France for the French" type of xenophobia that happened in Europe in the '30s.

4T?

Re: Le Pen

The European societies some in this forum are so enamoured with are seriously sick and flawed.

The really wierd thing about the coverage of the events of France's recent election is that the (admittedly shrinking and collapsing) "anti-globalist" Left does not seem to recognize that Le Pen is their natural ally.

The following is from http://damianpenny.blogspot.com/2002....html#75761879 :

<font color=navy>...there's a connection between the anti-globalization movement and the remarkable success of Jean-Marie Le Pen...

...Le Pen's economic policies are actually not that far removed from those supported by [anti-globalist] "activists" - his policy platform proposes that every French person be "given a job" and that France should refuse to bow to 'American dominance' in international affairs. A couple of years ago, Le Pen's speech to the annual FN conference deemed globalization "enemy No. 1", and in this year's campaign, Le Pen played down his xenophobic immigration and cultural policies and concentrated mainly on his opposition to economic globalization.

Full employment? Opposition to American hegemony? Economic nationalism? Most of the people found banging drums outside WTO meetings would probably support these. Le Pen and his radical-right supporters have built their political support on fear - fear of globalization, fear of change, fear of the future... They may not be exactly alike, but they certainly have much more in common than they're willing to admit.</font>

And now the "anti-globalization" "movement" (so-called) has transmogrified itself yet again (presto! chango!) into a pro-Palestinian movement. I'm sure Le Pen would approve.

On 2002-04-24 15:37, firemind wrote:
Re: Le Pen

The European societies some in this forum are so enamoured with are seriously sick and flawed.

The really wierd thing about the coverage of the events of France's recent election is that the (admittedly shrinking and collapsing) "anti-globalist" Left does not seem to recognize that Le Pen is their natural ally.

The following is from http://damianpenny.blogspot.com/2002....html#75761879 :

<font color=navy>...there's a connection between the anti-globalization movement and the remarkable success of Jean-Marie Le Pen...

...Le Pen's economic policies are actually not that far removed from those supported by [anti-globalist] "activists" - his policy platform proposes that every French person be "given a job" and that France should refuse to bow to 'American dominance' in international affairs. A couple of years ago, Le Pen's speech to the annual FN conference deemed globalization "enemy No. 1", and in this year's campaign, Le Pen played down his xenophobic immigration and cultural policies and concentrated mainly on his opposition to economic globalization.

Full employment? Opposition to American hegemony? Economic nationalism? Most of the people found banging drums outside WTO meetings would probably support these. Le Pen and his radical-right supporters have built their political support on fear - fear of globalization, fear of change, fear of the future... They may not be exactly alike, but they certainly have much more in common than they're willing to admit.</font>

And now the "anti-globalization" "movement" (so-called) has transmogrified itself yet again (presto! chango!) into a pro-Palestinian movement. I'm sure Le Pen would approve.

Actually Le Pen has supported Israel's right to defend herself, Le Pen has always been a oppuntorist. For a while in the 1980's he was a free market captialist person, aiming to reform France into a free market captialist economy. French politics is somewhat different to the rest of Europe.

On 2002-04-24 15:37, firemind wrote:
Re: Le Pen


And now the "anti-globalization" "movement" (so-called) has transmogrified itself yet again (presto! chango!) into a pro-Palestinian movement. I'm sure Le Pen would approve.

Le Pen Ultimate by Adar Primor from the 13 Iyyan 5761 number of [/I]Ha'aretz[/I]. HTH

This guy in a lot of ways reminds me of the Christian Coalition. I said before that he is an anti-Semite but it might be more accurate to describe him as prejudgemental than anti-Semitic.
He is definitely not a fascist. I'm not endorsing any of his ideas. But he is a staunch nationalist who believes in France for Frenchmen. He never suggested, near as I can tell, revoking the rights or citizenship of Jews and Moslem in France.

I think that should settle the matter.
And he supports Israel :smile:

Firemind:

Full employment? Opposition to American hegemony? Economic nationalism? Most of the people found banging drums outside WTO meetings would probably support these.

The first two, yes. The last one, no. There were some points of similarity between the New Deal and the Nazis, as well.

And now the "anti-globalization" "movement" (so-called) has transmogrified itself yet again (presto! chango!) into a pro-Palestinian movement.

None of the alleged transmogrifications in the misnamed anti-globalization movement has been one. Nor is this. The core of the protest, which would resolve all of the contradictions you apparently perceive if you would take it seriously, is this: the emerging global order is overly subordinate to corporate interests and too callous towards the needs of people and the planet. We are emerging into a global plutocracy, not a global democracy. That must be fought.


That the Palestinians' plight is a product of the global plutocracy is obvious. The West's insatiable hunger for oil keeps Arab tyrants in place; meanwhile, America supports and underwrites the activities of Israel. The Palestinians are squeezed between the two.

I'm sure Le Pen would approve.

If he can get political mileage out of it, I'm sure Le Pen would approve of anything.


JayN:

He is definitely not a fascist. I'm not endorsing any of his ideas. But he is a staunch nationalist who believes in France for Frenchmen.

He is definitely not a Nazi. But if his first and primary value is nationalism, overriding all others, then he most definitely is a fascist.


As to whether this situation is 4T or 3T, you could make a case for both. If it is 3T, then it is very late 3T, when, last time around, the fascist movements were developing surprising strength but had not yet taken power. Le Pen is about where the Nazis were in the years between the "Beer Hall Putsche" and Hitler's becoming Chancellor. The latter occurred in 1933, but the former was during the Unraveling.


If Le Pen actually wins the presidency of France, which does not look likely, then we have a clear 4T indicator. Otherwise it's ambiguous.

Nationalism is nationalism.
Don't buy the anti-semitic hype.
Le pen and Sharon are two in the same vein, those who gain power of the fear of the people and then will make things only worse.
Bigotry is so ugly.

Why is nationalism bigotry, Terminator X?

Was the waving of flags after September 11 bigotry also because we didn't wave the flags of every other nation?

Or is patriotism only acceptable when expressed by those on the left (which I am, incidentally)?

And, for the record, neither Le Pen or Sharon has proposed revoking either citizenship or the rights of anyone in thier countries. They are committed to the status quo. 1.2 million Arabs are still full citizens of Israel under Sharon and 6 million Jews and Muslims are still full citizens of France.

I know this has already been discussed at various times in this forum, but (that song must be in my head) it bears repeating now:

The "left-right" political spectrum we have inherited from the 20th century is a hodge-podge of unclear associations and meanings.

For example, if (and this is just an example) a "centrist" favors keeping the minimum wage roughly the same (adjusting for inflation), and a "leftist" favors raising it, and a "rightist" favors lowering it (or just leaving it alone, and letting inflation do its work), should not someone on the "far right" favor abolishing it altogether?

But Le Pen is usually called "far right", and he favors RAISING the minimum wage.

This is just one example among many. I'm sure that practically all of us would agree with what I've written so far, and could provide other examples.

The problem is, if you were to group all of the major public issues into as few major groups as possible, you'd still be left with at least a half dozen major groups (it seems to me), and it is difficult to draw a six-dimensional map.

I am (vaguely) aware that other scales have been suggested, and tend to think that any other scale would be an improvement, but would still fall short, of course.

The reason Le Pen is called a "far rightist" is because of his association, fair or unfair (and I think it's largely fair), with "racist" issues. For whatever historical reasons, the "racism" issue trumps the "laizzez faire economics" issue when it comes to determining whether a person is "left" or "right". If a person advocates, or seems to advocate, ethnic purity, he is usually considered a far-rightist regardless of almost anything else.

I don't have any solutions for this today. All of the above is just by way of introducing an amusing paragraph in Mark Steyn's latest column, which addresses these very matters:

http://www.nationalpost.com/commenta...425/27918.html

<font color=navy>Still, despite the racism and bigotry, I resent the characterization of M. Le Pen as "extreme right." I'm an extreme right-wing madman myself, and it takes one to know one. M. Le Pen is an economic protectionist in favour of the minimum wage, lavish subsidies for France's incompetent industries and inefficient agriculture; he's anti-American and fiercely opposed to globalization. In other words, he's got far more in common with Naomi Klein than with me. He would fit right in as a guest host on the CBC's CounterSpin. Even the antipathy toward Jews is more of a left-wing thing these days -- see the EU, UN, Svend and Mary Robinson, etc. Insofar as anyone speaks up for Jews in the West, it's only a few right-wing columnists, Newt Gingrich, Christian conservatives and Mrs. Thatcher -- or, as a reader e-mailed the other day, "all you Hebraic assholes on the right." M. Le Pen is a nationalist and a socialist -- or, if you prefer, a nationalist socialist. Hmm. A bit long but, if you lost a syllable, you might be in business.</font>

It should be nice having the French preoccupied internally for a couple of weeks...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: firemind on 2002-04-26 11:56 ]</font>

Jay,

All the flag waving makes me want to vomit. It is these nationalist associations that make some dude in Afghanistan want to blow me up simple because I happen to be an American citizen. I am an individual, i don't want to get killed for some schmuck's policies in the Middle East.
If I could not have a citizenship that would be cool. But you must choose. you must choose boundaries for yourself, people to represent you and put your life on the line while they are wisked away to a safe army base because they are so important.
Its trash.
Your mentioning of the 1.2 million arabs that are Israeli citizens is important.
All of these newspapers that call a critique of Israeli policy "anti-semitic" and "hatred towards Jews" forget that the actions of Israel don't represent "Jews"; they represent "Israelis" primarily an old lame one named Ariel Sharon.
It needs to be cleared up before it turns into a whole battle of name calling.
By the way, Palestinians are also a semitic people. So I guess some Israelis are anti-semitic.
(laughs)
Terminator

3T or 4T?

Liberal Government in Canada drops anti-terrorism bill after protests from civil liberties advocates
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/nat...425/27474.html
Are those on the Left the only ones still fighting for civil liberties? Are there any on the right fighting for them as well? I'm not trying to sound partisan. Just worried about civil liberties.

On 2002-04-26 12:24, Terminator X wrote:
If I could not have a citizenship that would be cool. But you must choose. you must choose boundaries for yourself, people to represent you and put your life on the line while they are wisked away to a safe army base because they are so important.

Um, not to belabor the point, but by choosing a citizenship you are not only (in a sense) choosing leaders to be wisked away to safety while you "put your life on the line", as you say, by staying home or whatever.

By choosing a citizenship you are ALSO choosing organizations of trained professionals prepared to wisk themselves TOWARDS danger to protect YOU.

Compared to which, the degree to which you "put your life on the line" seems to be not such a big deal.

Furthermore, if you did a statistical analysis of the prevalance of attempts on the lives of average citizens versus the attempts on the lives of, say, Presidents of the United States, I think you'd find that being President is a more dangerous job than most.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: firemind on 2002-04-26 12:38 ]</font>

Sorry, but for the first 12 years of my life I was "collateral damage."
I feel bad for the men and women who "serve and protect," because they too are getting the booty end of the stick, dying for a power elite that wants to safe guard its interests.

Be the first one on your block to have your boy sent home in a box

I am not trying to disrespect these people. But I feel like alot of the things that have left us liable for being attacked have been set in motion by our own government acting irresponsibly without the support of its people who are largely left in the dark about its true ambitions.
Its not like 9-11 happened because the "evil-doers" "abhor freedom."
They had reasons to hate America. They looked to US sanctions in Iraq, the blind support of the Israeli government, and had ammunition to take the anger from their poor existence and channel it towards an internationally reknowned arrogant nation.
Now did we have anything to do with coups in Iran, or sanctions on Iraq?
I live on the East Coast of North America, separated from the other hemisphere by a BIG ocean.
If it wasnt for this governemnt I wouldnt give to craps about Kandahar or Jenin. They live there, its their struggle. We are involved because we sold them ammo and gave them $$$$$$$$$$
Ugh. To think my tax money went to pay for some shit that may come back to kill me.

On 2002-04-26 12:38, Terminator X wrote:
Sorry, but for the first 12 years of my life I was "collateral damage."
I feel bad for the men and women who "serve and protect," because they too are getting the booty end of the stick, dying for a power elite that wants to safe guard its interests.

Be the first one on your block to have your boy sent home in a box

It is always a fair point that power elites safeguard their interests. That's a given.

The trick is to get a power elite that tends to safeguard your interests as well. The means of accomplishing this are open to debate.

Never mind. I'm done with idiotic arguments.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: firemind on 2002-04-26 12:55 ]</font>

Terminator
YOur post was insightful and interesting.
I never suggested that critics of Israeli policy are all anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish.

But there are definitely some, like Hamas or Hezbollah or Al Qaeda, who want to see Israel destroyed. THAT is anti-Jewish. And many in the West are unable to see that plain and simple fact when they criticize Israeli policy without understanding the motivations of Israeli leaders.

NO, not all Jews or Israelis agree with Sharon's battle tactics aginst Palestinian civilians. I actually do not. But all would agree that any threat to innocent civilians like suicide bombers and nuclear-tipped missiles need to be fought. Arafat failed to stop suicide bombers despite his repeated promises to do so. That's the issue.

As for nationalism, I suppose I can understand and share your frustration about leadership who like to run away from terrorist threats while the rest of us are left vulnerable on account of our leaders' policies. But there is another aspect I think, with all due respect, you overlook.
Even if we were to give in to all the demands of the terrorist it would not be the end of the threat to us. In fact it would strengthen the convictions of terrorists who would see that the best way to get their way is to inflict as many casualties on the enemy as possible.

18 years ago some Hizballuh suicide bombers blew themselves up and killed over 200 Marines and French troops stationed as peacekeepers in Lebanon. Whether you agree with our being in Lebanon or not there is no doubt that someone who is committed enough to blow himself up is beyond the point of any reason and is full of hatred for what the enemy is, not just what he does. This is different than a regular soldier who picks up guns or rifles to defend his beliefs until he gets his way.

And the leaders who send out the suicide bombers like Osama bin Laden are themselves cowardly because they sit back while they pursuade some impressionable young person to blow themselves up. I guess it shows that the type of leaders you like to deride do exist on the other side as well.

If you don't like our policy in the Middle East I do encourage you to protest it. I may not agree but I would have to respect a display of fresh young blood against our policies. And it would help to keep the idea of democracy, however weak it may presently be, alive in our country. That is the more difficult but also more rewarding path than moving away from citizenship since you have to be a citizen somewhere.

That's me.
Stupid.
Educated? No.
Stupid? Yep.

When I said impressionable young peope I don't mean you or American kids. I meant the terrorists. And, come to think of it, many of them are not so you young. Many are in thier late twenties or early thirties. More like the age of "the Shaq" or Tim McVeigh.