Firemind, not to be critical but I think you should give Terminator X more credit than you are giving.

I think you would agree with him, as would I, about the problem of the US giving weaponry to Third World mercenaries who then become our enemies. I may disagree with some of my fellows on the left on the means towards dealing with the problem but I stand with them in acknowledging the problem. And many on the Right are starting to acknowledge this problem also.

Terminator, what did you mean when you said you were collateral damage your first twelve years? Are you referring to a typical Xer upbringing?

I was refering to the Cold War.
I was twelve years old in 1991 when the "iron curtain fell."
Before the glasnost and perestroika reforms I was made aware of the Soviet intentions to "wipe out America" by friends with preachier fathers.

Yes, but I'm tired of those who seem to believe that that argument is the be-all and end-all of the matter.

Do you suppose that just SOME of the responsibility for 9/11 could be attached to, oh, I don't know, perhaps THE TERRORISTS WHO DID IT?

Nahh, that would be to simplistic. It simply HAD to be America's fault. If America would just stop exporting fast food chains and supporting anti-Soviet insurgencies, all would be peace and light.

Aren't we all tired of that argument by now? Where has TerminatorX been the past seven months?

On 2002-04-26 13:56, Terminator X wrote:
I was refering to the Cold War.
I was twelve years old in 1991 when the "iron curtain fell."
Before the glasnost and perestroika reforms I was made aware of the Soviet intentions to "wipe out America" by friends with preachier fathers.

Oh, for shame. How you suffered! Being exposed to other people's opinions! And at the tender age of twelve!

Life is hard, kid.

On 2002-04-26 13:59, firemind wrote:
Yes, but I'm tired of those who seem to believe that that argument is the be-all and end-all of the matter.

Do you suppose that just SOME of the responsibility for 9/11 could be attached to, oh, I don't know, perhaps THE TERRORISTS WHO DID IT?

Nahh, that would be to simplistic. It simply HAD to be America's fault. If America would just stop exporting fast food chains and supporting anti-Soviet insurgencies, all would be peace and light.

Aren't we all tired of that argument by now? Where has TerminatorX been the past seven months?

I know I'm sick and tired of that argument, and any other that seeks to extract *some* smidgeon of blame to attach to America out of every situation, no matter how it has to be done. To those who play that game, I say, "Well, excuse me for existing!"

With all the flag waving super bowl bullshit we've had to deal with, another point of view has to be expressed somewhere.
This war on terror is just an extension of the same shit that led to 9-11.
We will never win a "war on terror" so long as conditions continue to provide a hospitable environment for terrorism to thrive.
Do you think you can kill all of them???
Silly Person.
This is just like the war on drugs.

On 2002-04-26 14:07, Terminator X wrote:
With all the flag waving super bowl bullshit we've had to deal with, another point of view has to be expressed somewhere.
This war on terror is just an extension of the same shit that led to 9-11.
We will never win a "war on terror" so long as conditions continue to provide a hospitable environment for terrorism to thrive.
Do you think you can kill all of them???
Silly Person.
This is just like the war on drugs.

Silly for not favoring my own destruction, as well as that of the rest of America? For, I learned a long time ago that the single worst act of American 'imperialism', the one from which all other evils flow, is our *existence*. Destroy America, including the American people, and all the world's problems would be solved, and the rest of the world could become a utopia. And yes, I do believe that the terrorists, and those who back them, fully intend to kill *all* of us.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jds1958xg on 2002-04-26 14:18 ]</font>

On 2002-04-26 14:07, Terminator X wrote:
With all the flag waving super bowl bullshit we've had to deal with, another point of view has to be expressed somewhere.
This war on terror is just an extension of the same shit that led to 9-11.
We will never win a "war on terror" so long as conditions continue to provide a hospitable environment for terrorism to thrive.
Do you think you can kill all of them???
Silly Person.
This is just like the war on drugs.

(This kid is still smarting from the smarmy Super Bowl sh*t! How long ago was that?)

Look, sometimes the smarmy stuff gets on my nerves as well, but don't imply you aren't free to express your opinion. People are freely expressing their opinion all over the place. The free expression of opinions and debate must go on now more than ever. That's how we discover the truth.

If there was more free expression of opinions and open debates in certain other societies on this planet, 9/11 would never have happened. How's THAT for a "root cause".

This is most certainly NOT like the war on drugs.

The use of drugs occurs in all societies. I agree with your implication that it will never be wiped out.

Terrorism is only prevalant in a relative few societies. If you look at the list of countries, clear patterns emerge. Tyranny, for one thing.

Change those countries, and you will have gone a long way to eliminating terrorism.

In RE: The blame America arguments.


There is a difference between looking at the many roots of a problems and assigning responsibility. I believe that the terrorists are responsible for their evil acts and I do think they are evil acts. They made a decision to murder innocent civilians from all over the world in order to make a statement about what they think about the United States. I believe that the root of their anger is that we are a liberal (in the classic sense)and capitalist society. The choice of targets was a symbol for them.
So the terrorists are responsible for their acts and the United States is not. It does not follow, however, that we should not look into all of the reasons that our enemies do not like us. It is important to learn as much as possible about them. It is not unpatriotic to do so.

Another thought: It is important to recognise the difference between "good" and "perfect." The United States is not perfect. We do wrong things, we make mistakes, we fail to live up to our good intentions. This is all true. However, it is important to recognize that the United States is a good place--we are tolerant of our neighbors and people have many opportunities to live a good life. This is not true everywhere. We should not let the better become the enemy of the good.

JDS writes...

Silly for not favoring my own destruction, as well as that of the rest of America? For, I learned a long time ago that the single worst act of American 'imperialism', the one from which all other evils flow, is our *existence*. Destroy America, including the American people, and all the world's problems would be solved, and the rest of the world could become a utopia. And yes, I do believe that the terrorists, and those who back them, fully intend to kill *all* of us.

Again, in any given Fourth Turning, the faction that benefits most from maintaining the status quo will find excuses to use violence to maintain the status quo. They generally lose. A downtrodden faction that is victim of injustice allied with factions seeking to integrate new technologies into the main stream culture triumph.

Or, at least this was true in crises of transition between agricultural and industrial age civilizations. Democracy, free market capitalism, human rights, and huge citizen armies are among the signature elements of Industrial Age societies that advanced at the expense of elitist landowners, slavery, privileged nobility and political police. During the Industrial Age, with benefit of 20 20 hindsight, it is fairly easy to see wealthy factions with profits from new industries created by new technologies, seeking political pull to match their wealth, allying with the common people through promises of democracy, human rights and equality. The sub-plot is that the wealthy industrialists maintained an excess of influence over the politicians. Thus, we have Marx screaming about evil capitalists, Eisenhower warning against the military industrial complex, hippies distrusting The Establishment, and McCain talking about campaign finance reform. These are just different perspectives on the same problem, a concentration of wealth and political power in the hands of a few who wish to continue and perpetuate the concentration of wealth and political power.

Which puts The People in a similar situation as when the noble land owners had all the wealth and political power. As we switch to transition between industrial and post-industrial civilizations, the natural alliance between the capitalists and the democracies seems questionable. There are very few tyrants left, attempting autocratic dictatorships. Thus, we might consider taking excess political power from the capitalists, as the currently greatest threat, rather than the tyrants.

Or maybe not. Class warfare certainly isn't the only perspective that might apply. Certainly, the US is spending zillions of bucks sustaining the Zionists. This does not win us friends in certain quarters. We also use military and political power to enhance our vital interests, the profits of US corporations abroad. There is a very real division of wealth between the West and other 'civilizations.' We shouldn't be faulted for being wealthy, but we can be disliked and distrusted for using strong arm hardball tactics to maintain and extend such a gap.

Anyway, in a world where minor nations have proxy use of weapons of mass destruction, should powerful nations continue to use hardball tactics to maintain a high standard of wealth?

As usual in a Fourth Turning, a considerable transformation seems necessary. Frankly, I think everyone would be best off starting from democracy, human rights and equality. The West is the best we have. It is not perfect. There are shadows of 19th Century imperialism still in place, old advantages, old ways of doing business. The West is no where near as arrogant and domineering as it once was. It is still well short of being a good neighbor.

Like Israel and Palestine, the West and the other civilizations ought to recognize that each other have a right to exist. Yes, the US has many reasons to be proud. Yes, we have every right to defend ourselves. No, we are not perfect. No, those who hate us are not irrational, are not insane, are not acting without cause.

No, we cannot stop the clock. Injustice cannot stand indefinitely. Brute force cannot maintain old 19th century patterns that would be best left behind. The solution, the proper and just solution, will involve moving on to something new. Moving on to something new is better done from a western perspective than by tyrannical fundamentalists clerics. Thus, it is very important the we look in the mirror, we be the ones to admit fault, we be the ones to build a vision of a new future, as those abroad are dwelling in the agricultural age past.

If the West is not ready to move on to a new high, who will be?

You know, when it comes down to love it or leave it, maybe I really should look into leaving.
This nation was founded by Puritans and Imperialists, and I feel those values continue to dominate.
A "good" nation with "good" intentions?
Please. How many babies did we napalm in the jungles of South East Asia? How many Iraqi children's deaths were worth the sanctions on Iraq? How many Afghani innocents were killed when we "brought justice" to Afghanistan.
And you'd rather rally behind George W Bush and Dick Cheney, two rich oil men who bought there way into the White House, and would exploit the deaths of 3000 American civilians to do something so remote and foolish as to invade Iraq and pick a fight with North Korea.
Nobody asked for that.
But they will exploit and dole out death to innocents in search of applying their universal values of goodness to the world.
That is disgusting.
Fellow schmucks of the world, rise up against the elite, the Bushes and bin Ladens.
They are our problems.
Unite.
............................................

FYI, we don't have free market capitalism. In free market capitalism the government doesn't go through such efforts to give businesses tax breaks, lift environmental standards, appoint them seats on important committees to represent the public's interest.
In a real free-market laissez faire system, businesses would get *zero handouts*

On 2002-04-26 15:15, Terminator X wrote:
How many Iraqi children's deaths were worth the sanctions on Iraq?

I presume, since you have raised this issue twice, that you must now be SEETHING with anger at Saddam Hussein.

After all, if our mere LIMITING of Iraq's oil exports was REALLY responsible for the deaths of Iraqi children, how many MORE children must be dying now that Saddam has stopped ALL oil exports???

Eh, Terminator X? You've got a plan to denounce this heinous act of Saddam's, don't you?

Don't you? Terminator? Hello?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: firemind on 2002-04-26 15:25 ]</font>

On 2002-04-26 15:21, Terminator X wrote:
FYI, we don't have free market capitalism.

True, But point to a country that is more capitalist that the US.

This is a very meager point you raise.

On 2002-04-26 15:15, Terminator X wrote:
How many Afghani innocents were killed when we "brought justice" to Afghanistan.

The best current estimates of the number of non-combantant Afghanis killed during our recent war there is about 1200, give or take a hundred.

To put this in perspective, when the Taliban captured Kabul alone, the non-combatant death toll was higher.

Due to our influence, more food and medical supplies are pouring into Afghanistan then ever in years and years.

Thus, a good argument can be made that we saved more lives then were lost.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: firemind on 2002-04-26 15:32 ]</font>

I want you to be my President.
I want you to bring justice to the whole world.
I want you to deliver the democracy Firemind, like we did in Vietnam, or in Nicaragua.
I will take my money and give it to you.
Go, build bombs and planes.
Bring the freedom.
Allow the indigenous peoples to drink from your mighty Coca Cola.
Someday they will be as free as us.
Free to have two parties that are almost identical.
Free to choose whatever product we desire, and be scorned by a society if we reject their consumer lifestyle.
I want you to lead us.
Hold the children's hands and walk into the new Millennium together, paving the way for a brighter future.
Together we can conquer the world with our lifestyle, or dress, our gender roles and fast food chains.
After all, we respect our women enough to allow them to vote and run for congress as long as they shave their legs :wink:
America is filled with bright happy shiny people that really want to make peace and love, not war.
Its not filled with brainwashed bible thumping religious zealots and greedy misogynistic capitalists who live off the work and sweat of children in third world countries where life is cheap.
Take the reins.
The world just adores America so much they will passively accept its way of life, for it is truly good and at one with the word of God.
Amen.

On 2002-04-26 15:15, Terminator X wrote:
You know, when it comes down to love it or leave it, maybe I really should look into leaving.

Have fun finding a country without a power elite. Say "hi" to Alec Baldwin. Do write and let us know how things are going.

I'll go back to Iceland--where nobody wants to kill you :smile: :smile: :smile:

Come on Firemind, a day without blood, is like a day without sunshine!

On 2002-04-26 15:44, Terminator X wrote:
Come on Firemind, a day without blood, is like a day without sunshine!

(Iceland? Blood? No sunshine?)

No, I will NOT come with you to Iceland and become a vampire. Stay away from me, you wierdo!

Evidence for 3T:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

In light of 9/11, Nevada is going ahead with these? Are they serious?

On 2002-04-26 15:39, Terminator X wrote:
I want you to be my President.
I want you to bring justice to the whole world.
I want you to deliver the democracy Firemind, like we did in Vietnam, or in Nicaragua.
I will take my money and give it to you.
Go, build bombs and planes.
Bring the freedom.
Allow the indigenous peoples to drink from your mighty Coca Cola.
Someday they will be as free as us.
Free to have two parties that are almost identical.
Free to choose whatever product we desire, and be scorned by a society if we reject their consumer lifestyle.
I want you to lead us.
Hold the children's hands and walk into the new Millennium together, paving the way for a brighter future.
Together we can conquer the world with our lifestyle, or dress, our gender roles and fast food chains.
After all, we respect our women enough to allow them to vote and run for congress as long as they shave their legs :wink:
America is filled with bright happy shiny people that really want to make peace and love, not war.
Its not filled with brainwashed bible thumping religious zealots and greedy misogynistic capitalists who live off the work and sweat of children in third world countries where life is cheap.
Take the reins.
The world just adores America so much they will passively accept its way of life, for it is truly good and at one with the word of God.
Amen.

That is great! :smile:

But what's with this obsession with Alec Baldwin? You have mentioned him in a lot of posts.


_________________
Scars are tattoos with better stories.
--Toyota ad

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Susan Brombacher on 2002-04-26 19:21 ]</font>

I think Alec Baldwin threatened to leave the United States if Bush was elected.

_________________
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure....You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world." -- Nelson Mandela

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kiff '61 on 2002-04-26 19:28 ]</font>

Very good Terminator :lol:

The fire is burning up his mind, I do believe.... :razz:

The real scandal about innocents killed by US bombs in Afghanistan is how the media refused to inquire or cover what is really the most important aspects of the story: how many DID we kill with our war that was supposed to be a liberation of the Afghan people, and directed at their rulers and Al Qaeda? I've heard something like 3500. But we don't really know because our corporate, un-free Soviet-like media is not allowed or refuses to cover the story.

Not a good sign for our 4T. Will it be New Deal America or Fascist Germany? The jury is out.