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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 110







Post#2726 at 06-27-2002 10:48 AM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Here is something that sounds 3T:

http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56328,00.html

Ann Coulter versus Katie Couric? Now that's a brawl I would pay to see.

_________________
Robert Reed III (1982)
"Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings." -- Heinrich Heine
"The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren and to do good is my religion."-Thomas Paine

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: madscientist on 2002-06-27 08:49 ]</font>







Post#2727 at 06-27-2002 10:42 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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I will submit this article from the Washington Post as a sign of 4T.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Jun24.html

<font color="blue">
We The Peeps

By Teresa Wiltz
NEW YORK

Outside City Hall, around the sidewalk stage, things get crazy very
early on. Like right after school lets out. Kids cram the streets, tens
of thousands crowding every inch of pavement for blocks. Onstage, there
is Big Tigger, from BET's "Tha Bassment," pleading, "PLEASE DO NOT
PUSH. You've got to take a baby step back. Please help us help y'all." Not
that the pleading does any good.

There are gaggles of girls, drunk on heat and hormones and the
prospect of seeing a favorite rap star: Jay-Z. P. Diddy. LL Cool J. Common.
Noreaga. RZA, from Wu-Tang Clan. And so they shove and push, and heave
and squeeze, until the barricades come crashing down.

Sure, they're here to protest school budget cuts, but on this first
Tuesday in June, at least, the vibe is more rap concert than City Hall
demonstration.

Big Cap is on the turntable. Tigger's on the mic. A hundred or so of
New York's finest are on alert. Jumbotrons dot the street. "Backstage"
-- a squared-off cordon of concrete -- hip-hop's hottest, from Rah
Digga to Alicia Keys and Foxy Brown, to Chuck D and Erykah Badu, to Rev.
Run and Raekwon, are snaking through the crush of fans, teachers, City
Council members, union reps, activists and wannabes hellbent on snaring
a record deal. They're here, as Noreaga puts it, "to support the
cause." And because rap mogul Russell Simmons of Def Jam Records, the rally
organizer, asked them to be here.

"If you want education!

Put your hands up!

Put your hands up!

Lemme hear you say YEAAAAAAAAH!!!!"

This is what hip-hop, approaching its 30th year, looks like as it
comes of age politically. Flush with cash and the power of rap's
international appeal to young people, some in the hip-hop community are starting
to imagine the possibilities inherent in lassoing the energy of
millions of record-buying fans.

Of course, activism and hip-hop -- the culture that sprang out of rap
music -- have always danced together. They've been partners ever since
rap's earliest beginnings in the Bronx, when Afrika Bambaataa and his
Universal Zulu Nation abandoned gangbanging for rapping and grass-roots
organizing in the 1970s. But Simmons's rally in Manhattan earlier this
month reflects a ratcheting-up of an investment in the three Ps:
politics, philanthropy and protest. It's even got a nickname -- raptivism.

On the electoral front, spoken-word artist and school administrator
Ras Baraka just completed his third run for office in Newark; City
Council contender George Martinez, aka Rithm says he's the first MC to run
for elected office in New York; and self-proclaimed "hip-hop minister"
Conrad Muhammad, formerly of the Nation of Islam, is mulling over
challenging Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.) -- on the Republican ticket.

On the philanthropy side, there is Simmons, whose newly formed
Hip-Hop Summit Action Network funds literacy programs, arts education and
political candidates. And then there are Mos Def and Talib Kweli,
outspoken artist-activists who organized other rappers to produce "Hip-Hop for
Respect," a maxi-single decrying police brutality; proceeds benefited a
nonprofit organization that encourages entertainers to play leadership
roles.

P. Diddy founded Daddy's House, a charity that provides money to
underprivileged children in Harlem for computer camps and trips to Africa.
In Los Angeles last month, Boots Riley of the Coup, Blackilicious,
Dilated Peoples, Mystic, spoken-word artist Saul Williams and Ozomatli
performed for free in "Not in Our Name," the first large-scale benefit
concert to protest the Bush administration's war on terrorism.

Not the hip-hop you usually see bouncing around on your TV screen.
Where's the bling-bling, the music that embraces the glamorous life, the
live-now-I-got-mine attitude found in countless hits, and in flashy
videos where hootchy mamas bounce their backsides and Busta Rhymes
exhorts, "Pass the Courvoisier"? Therein are the two faces of hip-hop. While
Busta extols a brand of cognac, Nas is declining a lucrative deal with
Coors beer because he says he doesn't want to peddle alcohol to African
Americans. The "conscious" side of hip-hop is what prompted Public
Enemy frontman Chuck D to dub rap the "CNN of the ghetto" in the late '80s,
the side where political, social and cultural issues are hashed out in
verse.

Some see it as a war for the soul of hip-hop.

One small battle in this war has been playing out between Old School
and New School heads. MC battles are nothing new; millions are made
with warring rappers trading disses on digital. And maybe the latest one
between Nelly and KRS-One is just more big publicity stunt. Still, the
symbolism is hard to miss. Nelly denounced KRS-One on a remix as a
has-been, the "first old man to get a rapper's pension." KRS-One, who sees
rap as "edutainment," responded by comparing Nelly's music to an " 'N
Sync commercial," and calling for fans of "real hip-hop" to boycott
Nelly's new album.

Even those who proclaim their "raptivist" credibility also realize
their commercial appeal. They know the power of hype.

The City Hall protest, for example, was part theater, part marketing
op, part grass-roots organizing that produced a rare coalition of labor
and hip-hop. Kids, teachers, rappers and labor activists came to
protest Mayor Michael Bloomberg's proposed $358 million cut in funding for
public schools, in part of a week-long series of demonstrations.
(Cynthia Nixon, star of HBO's "Sex and the City," was the first celebrity
arrested that week.) But the hip-hop rally was the biggest yet, a huge
celeb fest organized by Simmons, a yoga devotee who these days says he's
gotten more serious about political activity. This much he knows: If you
pick up the phone, they will come.

"Hip-hop has always had bravado and style," says political
commentator Farai Chideya, author of "The Color of Our Future," a book about the
future of race relations through the eyes of young Americans. "Now it
has money and power and access. Hip-hop people don't have to beg for a
seat at the table. They can make the table happen."

Being performers, they come to the table with a flair for the
dramatic. Rapper and singer Wyclef Jean will arrive late to the rally, and
when police refuse to let him onstage, he will lie facedown in the street
in a theatrical gesture, and the cops will cart him away. The kids will
watch his arrest, and they will not like it. Some will run after the
cops, screaming "Free Wyclef!" and they will throw things. Still, those
who participate will see possibilities in a growing sense of hip-hop
political power.

Says New York City Council member Charles Barron, backstage at the
rally: "This is an awesome, awesome revolutionary moment. [Hip-hop] can
indeed transform a nation."

"This reminds me of how hip-hop started," says rap veteran Fab Five
Freddy as he surveys the crowd. "We're using entertainment as a way to
focus on the political issues. That's where hip-hop came from. It
started as an adolescent activity and now it's the most dominant form of
youth culture in the world."
A Little Help From 'Rush'
We are the senators and the congressmen of our communities. We come
from communities that don't have nobody to speak for them. . . . We
represent them. And they need to know that we really represent them. Not
when it's just a romantic notion or a paycheck attached to it.

-- Mos Def



In the parking lot of a weary Newark strip mall, the "Baraka car" sits
idly. Its sides are emblazoned with election slogans, its seats stuffed
to the windows with box upon box of election fliers and posters. The
Baraka-mobile is, to put it bluntly, a "hoopty," a raggedy affair you
don't dare drive more than a block. The irony of its origins is not lost
on its owner, Ras Baraka, who is running for an at-large position on
the Newark City Council: In another life, the Baraka car was a cop car;
now it belongs to a candidate who challenges police brutality.

Outside his exceedingly battered election headquarters, a large
poster is plastered to the window: In it, Russell Simmons and Baraka sit
together under a banner headline that proclaims, "Rush Is Rolling With Ras
for Councilman-at-Large in 2002."

It helps, Baraka says, to have a hip-hop kingmaker like Simmons throw
his support behind him. A young voter might not have heard of him, but
more than likely, he says, that voter will know "Rush."

Baraka says Simmons's Hip-Hop Summit Action Network contributed
$1,000 to his campaign. He is grateful, he says, "but I wish he'd thrown me
a fundraiser," like he did for Hillary." (According to Benjamin Chavis
Muhammad, it was Simmons's political action committee, the
NUAmericaPAC, that contributed to Baraka's campaign. The committee has also
contributed to Maryland Del. Mark K. Shriver's campaign for Congress.)

At 33, Baraka, the son of famed poet, playwright and activist Amiri
Baraka, considers himself both an activist and a member of the hip-hop
community: A published poet who co-edited "In the Tradition: An
Anthology of Young Black Writers," the vice principal of a Newark public school
appears on Lauryn Hill's CD "The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill."

Baraka is one of the earliest electoral candidates to identify with
the hip-hop generation, and sees hip-hop as a tool to galvanize youth.
His words tumble out, a rush of politics and passion, liberally peppered
with quotes from his dad as well as Malcolm X, Frantz Fanon and Mos
Def. He is running for office, he says, because his generation has to
step up. As he sees it, the black political establishment isn't interested
in welcoming young folks into the fold.

"It's like young people are the enemy," he says.

This isn't his first time on the election ballot: In 1994, at 24,
Baraka ran for mayor of Newark. In '98, he ran for councilman-at-large,
losing in the runoff. The same thing will happen this time around; he
will lose the June 11 runoff by a handful of votes.

But today, at least, in the campaign office, spirits are optimistic.
His campaign crew is, like him, young: teachers and activists, most
under 35. Rap is the soundtrack to their lives.

Observes Baraka's campaign manager, Dave Muhammad, 35: "When you see
a community dying, you have to open your eyes to that. . . . Hip-hop is
the sleeping giant. Imagine if Jay-Z had a concert in Madison Square
Garden. And if on every seat he had a voter registration card. Now that
would be some serious political leverage."

Other candidates have not shied from trying to use hip-hop's leverage
to garner votes. In his failed bid for mayor of Newark, Cory Booker, a
32-year-old Rhodes scholar, drew the support of hip-hop luminary Queen
Latifah in his attempt to unseat incumbent Sharpe James.

Conrad Muhammad, formerly of the Nation of Islam and founder and
director of A Movement for Conscious Hip-Hop Activism Necessary for Global
Empowerment (CHHANGE), has taken hip-hop to task for its commercialism,
misogyny and glorification of the gangsta life. Now the Harvard
Divinity student (he's currently on leave) is considering taking on veteran
Rep. Rangel, the Harlem politico who in 1970 was the young upstart who
unseated the ailing Adam Clayton Powell Jr.

Muhammad figures that if rappers can sell a million records, then
they have the wherewithal to snare the votes needed to become a city
council member. But electoral success, he argues, will also require thinking
outside the box: Forget about a single-minded embrace of the Democratic
Party. Ergo Muhammad, a registered Democrat, is negotiating with the
Republican Party to run on the GOP ticket.

"There's an unprecedented role for the youth and brilliance to have
an active role in politics," says Muhammad, 37.

Does that mean that he thinks he is young and brilliant?

Pause.

"If I do say so myself."

Hip-hop, after all, is all about bravado.
The Two Faces of Rap
Rap has always been two things: party music and party music. Rap
music is rebel music, whether its adherents are rebelling against the
system like the Coup's Boots Riley and his "Ghetto Manifesto," or rebelling
against the notion that it's not their God-given right to pump up the
volume.

From the very beginning, hip-hop was different. The beat dominated
everything, obliterating melody, eviscerating eardrums, propelling rumps
to shake and heads to nod. As with other youth-driven forms of music
before it, some heard it and heard danger.

The rhythms of rap sprang up out of the harsh environs of the Bronx
River housing project where the streets were indeed mean and the
Notorious Black Spades ran things. But somewhere around the early to mid-'70s,
a Jamaican named Kool DJ Herc, the father of hip-hop, started mixing
improvised raps to reggae beats, and the focus on gangbanging shifted.
Instead of gang wars, some folks started having MC battles, rhyming
contests where rappers got to show off their verbal prowess.

Always, the two faces of rap were present: like the "hotel, motel,
Holiday Inn" playfulness of the first crossover rap hit, "Rappers
Delight," and a nascent political pulse hovering underneath the beat, like the
1982 hit "The Message," an unsparing look at ghetto life, where
Grandmaster Flash intoned again and again, "Don't push me / 'Cause I'm close
to the edge."

Hip-hop, the culture that includes rapping, DJ-ing, graffiti art and
breakdancing, provided a forum for African American and Latino kids who
felt they had no voice.

Rap has long since been embraced by young people everywhere, becoming
part of the ghetto romanticizations and rebellion of young whites and a
powerful form of expression worldwide.

But as hip-hop godfather Afrika Bambaataa said, "When we made
hip-hop, we made it hoping it would be about peace, love, unity and having fun
so that people could get away from the negativity that was plaguing our
streets."

Now it is those roots that activists of color cling to as they try
to turn words into social consciousness and action.
Organizers vs. Entertainers
I'll take a slug for the cause like Huey P

while all you fake niggas try to copy Master P . . .

-- Dead Prez, "Police State"

There is a romanticism of movements past, a glancing backward at the
successes of the black-power and civil rights movements, even while
acknowledging that those movements fail to speak to today's youth.

Still, the problems facing members of the hip-hop generation -- brown
and black 18-to-40-year-olds -- are no less pressing, activists will
tell you: high incarceration rates, unemployment and underemployment,
deteriorating schools,, police brutality and racism that has mutated but
not disappeared.

"The hip-hop generation is in a unique position to create a mass
political movement in our lifetime," says Bakari Kitwana, author of "The
Hip Hop Generation: Young Blacks and the Crisis in African-American
Culture." "We stand on the success of the civil rights movement. . . . I
think we can create a movement as successful as the civil rights movement.
We can surpass it."

At the moment, however, without a single clear issue on which to
focus, such as voting rights or Jim Crow, activism is to be found in
pockets around the country. There is the District of Columbia's Local
Initiative, Support, Training and Education Network (LISTEN), founded by the
late Lisa Sullivan, who saw hip-hop as having untapped potential for
grass-roots organizing. LISTEN describes itself as a "youth leadership
incubator" and works with other grass-roots groups to identify and nurture
young activists.

In San Francisco, Van Jones runs the Ella Baker Center for Human
Rights, taking on police brutality and prison reform. The group lobbied
hard against California's Proposition 21, which would, among other things,
have made it easier for prosecutors to try juveniles as adults.
Activists staged guerrilla hip-hop shows, the beat booming as rappers on
flatbed trucks rhymed against Prop 21. Though the measure won statewide, it
was defeated in the Bay Area.

It is these members of the hip-hop generation -- not entertainers --
whom Yvonne Bynoe, founder of the New York-based Urban Think Tank,
argues should be front and center. Community organizing, she says, should
be left in the hands of people who know how to do it.

"I don't need to know what Puffy thinks on certain issues," says
Bynoe of Simmons's rally. "It is the chic thing to do, a PR stunt, 'I have
a record coming out, let me show my face.' "

Hip-hop journalist and historian Davey D sees it differently.

"Russell is reaching out to Pookie and Sha-Sha, high school dropouts.
Russell is reaching the 'hood," he says. "There's no denying Russell
has firepower because people know who he is. You can't have just one
approach. You've got to have a multitude of approaches."

Both agree that the old models of black political empowerment don't
work. This generation is more individualistic, she says, less prone to
jump on a single-party bandwagon and disaffected by the older
generation's politics. Today's youth are pragmatists, not so concerned about
seeking redress from the government, but looking to themselves and family
as vehicles for advancement. Money, not legislation, is seen as the way
out.

Not that there isn't room for radical politics, the romanticization
of the past, or the germination of something new.

Rappers like Riley, and Ozomatli's Raul Pacheco, who see themselves
as both artists and activists, often form alliances with Old School
activists, like the former Black Panthers, particularly in the Bay Area.
Former Panthers David Hilliard and Elaine Brown have both worked with
Riley, himself the son of a '70s activist. Fred Hampton Jr., the son of
the slain Chicago Panther, is organizing his own political group, of
which the rappers Dead Prez are members. Hampton, freshly released from
prison on an arson conviction, shows up at hip-hop conferences dressed in
camouflage and spouting rhetoric.

"I think voting is the lowest form of political action that you can
do," Riley says. "A lot of times it keeps people from doing stronger
things. We're told, 'If you want to change the world, vote.' And really,
if you want to change the world, there's a lot more things that you can
do."

Riley and Ozomatli were among those performing at the "Not in Our
Name" concert last month. Who knows where a peace movement in a
post-Sept. 11 world might lead?
Money Men
Russell Simmons, he's a billionaire. If he's a billionaire, he should
donate some of what he's got to the schools.

-- Sameyah Mitchell,

New York City public school student

You can debate about rap and politics, but rap's selling power is a
given. Corporations use it to sell sneakers and soda. And moguls like
Simmons and Master P have amassed great fortunes on the backs of
hip-hoppers. Some like Bynoe and Kitwana wonder if Simmons's interest in
politics is nothing more than self-interest, particularly when he testified
before a Senate committee about free speech and offered to put a parental
advisory label on CDs containing offensive lyrics.

As Donald Trump, Barry Diller, David Geffen and others have shown, a
millionaire's fancy often can turn to politics.

Simmons has poured more than $100,000 into his year-old
organization (several record labels, along with the Recording Industry Association
of America, have contributed to the group as well), which shares office
space with Source magazine and is run by civil rights era warhorse Ben
Chavis Muhammad, who left his leadership post at the NAACP in the wake
of a sexual harassment scandal and has since worked for the Nation of
Islam.

Since the demonstrations, Mayor Bloomberg has reinstated $298 million
of the proposed school budget cuts and signed a new contract for New
York teachers.

"The restoration of that big a figure back into the budget was a
result of our mobilization," Benjamin Muhammad says.

Next month, the Hip-Hop Summit Action Network will launch a literacy
program as part of a joint effort between the HHSAN, Def Jam Records
and the Urban League. The group will also work with the NAACP to
relaunch Rap the Vote. Mary J. Blige, P. Diddy and LL Cool J have already
taped public service announcements encouraging young people to register to
vote.

Simmons decribes himself as "very, very committed. We did the Hip-Hop
Summit and made a lot of promises, we are mentoring kids, we do have a
think tank, we do have a Def Jam literacy program, and it's not easy."

"We are committed to forming an alliance with those organizations
that young people felt connected with. . . . People have been disconnected
from the civil rights movement and we're working really hard to connect
those dots."

As others already know and Simmons seems to be learning, connecting
the dots is not an easy task. Though there were probably historic
alliances outside City Hall that day -- hip-hop and organized labor -- not
even all the troops seemed clear about the mission.

Just before the rally, Jay-Z took to the airwaves, urging kids to
participate. But when asked what role he saw entertainers like himself
playing in politics, he shrugged and threw up his hands.

"I'm just Jay-Z," he drawled.

Does that mean he doesn't think rappers should play politics?

"I didn't say that," he sputtered. "Don't start something."

Right now, raptivism may be more the promise of something new rather
than its fulfillment.</font>

"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#2728 at 06-27-2002 10:46 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Here is another sign of 4T:

http://www.wiretapmag.org/story.html?StoryID=13457

Quoting Kevin Parker, "...sounds like an old GI socialist organization."
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#2729 at 06-28-2002 03:21 AM by chandalar [at Monroe, WA joined Jun 2002 #posts 25]
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The framework of the 90s is rapidly crumbling.

XoE
Watching from Alaska (where infrastructure is spotty at best) I was amazed how tightly the infrastructure stateside was linked.

I am not truly convinced that we have hit the 4th turning yet. 9/11 definitely brought a new focus and feeling to America, but it was pretty short lived. I think there is still momentum to the weltenshaung (sp?) of the 90's and that we will continue to hear similiar dialogue for awhile.

One of the things that convinced me that we hadn't hit the real crisis yet is when there was such a public outcry against the speech of Pat Robertson saying that with all our sin, we *deserved* 9/11. The condemnation of this statement was immediate, severe and pretty much universal. One would think that if it was the boomer/millenial mix, there might have been less outcry.







Post#2730 at 06-28-2002 06:44 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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On 2002-06-28 01:21, chandalar wrote:


Watching from Alaska (where infrastructure is spotty at best) I was amazed how tightly the infrastructure stateside was linked.

I am not truly convinced that we have hit the 4th turning yet. 9/11 definitely brought a new focus and feeling to America, but it was pretty short lived. I think there is still momentum to the weltenshaung (sp?) of the 90's and that we will continue to hear similiar dialogue for awhile.
Is there still resentment of the Federal government's control of much of Alaska's land and other resources? Or, did every thing change (or at least much change) with 911? What are the fevers of the day?







Post#2731 at 06-28-2002 09:06 AM by jds1958xg [at joined Jan 2002 #posts 1,002]
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More evidence of either tail-end 3T, or beginning 4T: The percentage of employees who put their families at top priority has jumped from 54% to 68% in just two years. People are getting back to basics, as I see it.







Post#2732 at 06-28-2002 10:58 AM by chandalar [at Monroe, WA joined Jun 2002 #posts 25]
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Is there still resentment of the Federal government's control of much of Alaska's land and other resources? Or, did every thing change (or at least much change) with 911? What are the fevers of the day?
The fevers of the day are still entitlement, resentment, greed and division. As a child, I would have never believed in an *increase* of overt racism against the native people who live here, but I saw it.

There is pretty desperate need to balance the state budget and this year it was even more obvious that the legislature and the bureacracy are gridlocked. Winter road maintenance to 2 villages was cancelled after some 20 years of it being there. And yet, people still feel entitled to their pfd checks. Definitely 3rd truning mentality.

The resentment towards the fed is still here, but right now were basking in all the fed funding of the missile project.







Post#2733 at 06-28-2002 02:03 PM by takascar2 [at North Side, Chi-Town, 1962 joined Jan 2002 #posts 563]
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Yes - Its things like this that make me think that we aren't there yet. Also, the generations aren't quite aligned yet.

When you combine the early age of things as well as a lot of returning to 3T behaviour, rather quickly, I might add, and I think we are in the late stages of the 3T still.

I'm guessing 2005-2007. The catalyst event does not matter as much as the mood.

What would have happened if it was 9/11/1994 instead of 9/11/2001? It was very possible - if they had thought of it sooner, got their people into place sooner.

Again, its not the event, its the timing - and folks just aren't "old enough" yet.







Post#2734 at 06-28-2002 09:58 PM by chandalar [at Monroe, WA joined Jun 2002 #posts 25]
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On 2002-06-28 12:03, takascar2 wrote:
Yes - Its things like this that make me think that we aren't there yet. Also, the generations aren't quite aligned yet.

When you combine the early age of things as well as a lot of returning to 3T behaviour, rather quickly, I might add, and I think we are in the late stages of the 3T still.

I'm guessing 2005-2007. The catalyst event does not matter as much as the mood.

What would have happened if it was 9/11/1994 instead of 9/11/2001? It was very possible - if they had thought of it sooner, got their people into place sooner.

Again, its not the event, its the timing - and folks just aren't "old enough" yet.
An issue I haven't explored yet is the relationship between countries and turnings. It is an unfortunate truth that I don't have all the time I like to read and explore. One thing that I suspect is that nations proximities accelerate or decelerate turnings. I also suspect that it is analogous to a tea kettle, i.e. pressure building until an event (however minor) catalyzes the turn. I agree; it is not the event itself, but the mood and reaction of the people.

I'm not confident enough to pick a time yet. There seems to be a lot of 3T momentum. I haven't pegged Bush yet as Silent or Boomer; he seems to have attributes of both. Also, there are a lot of smart things being done; that gives me hope that the turning will be both delayed and less severe. If people are well fed and not afraid, they tend to engage in less heinous behavior.







Post#2735 at 06-29-2002 12:24 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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On 2002-06-27 08:48, madscientist wrote:
Here is something that sounds 3T:

http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56328,00.html

Ann Coulter versus Katie Couric? Now that's a brawl I would pay to see.

_________________
If NBC supplied the mud, it would do wonders for the ratings! :lol:








Post#2736 at 06-29-2002 12:07 PM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
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Here?s a theory: The Scopes Trial was in 1925. The God-in-the-Pledge Decision was in 2002. That?s a 77-year separation. If they are perhaps archetypal of any saeculum, then we are in a 4T. This is supported by the magnitude of flap over two little words: ?under God?--just as it was, but in reverse, over two other words: ?Darwinian evolution.?

WHEREAS: ?Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof?? because it predisposed to neutrality on all matters of religion.

WHEREAS: Nature shall make no law respective an establishment of spirituality, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, because she is predisposed to neutrality on all matters of metaphysics.

THEREFORE: The magnitude of flap over this Pledge issue is a 4T tip-off (I am afraid to say).

We are an arbitrary society of fools. The God-in-the-Pledge decision should be a slam-dunk in any court of law!

The wheels are coming off.







Post#2737 at 06-29-2002 04:53 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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On 2002-06-29 10:07, Croaker'39 wrote:


THEREFORE: The magnitude of flap over this Pledge issue is a 4T tip-off (I am afraid to say).

We are an arbitrary society of fools.

The wheels are coming off.
This flap is a minor spasm...just another 3T OJ, Monica, etc. As to the nature of our society...was it ever thus. If your are going to settle down in your several trailer parks, you don't need them there wheels...make some swings for the urchins. HTH







Post#2738 at 06-29-2002 05:00 PM by Seminomad [at LA joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,379]
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On 2002-06-29 10:07, Croaker'39 wrote:

Here?s a theory: The Scopes Trial was in 1925. The God-in-the-Pledge Decision was in 2002. That?s a 77-year separation. If they are perhaps archetypal of any saeculum, then we are in a 4T. This is supported by the magnitude of flap over two little words: ?under God?--just as it was, but in reverse, over two other words: ?Darwinian evolution.?
uhh... I thought 1925 was still 3T (all the way up to 1929)







Post#2739 at 06-29-2002 06:45 PM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
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The first Silents were born in 1925. According to S&H, that was the beginning of the last 4T.







Post#2740 at 06-30-2002 12:58 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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On 2002-06-29 16:45, Croaker'39 wrote:

The first Silents were born in 1925. According to S&H, that was the beginning of the last 4T.
No, S&H put the last 4T in 1929, with the stock market crash of that year and the beginning of the Great Depression. The start of a Generation does not necessarily line up with the start of a new Turning.
For example, 1943 is the first Boomer birthyear, according to S&H, even though the last 4T is classed to have ended ~1945. The first Xers seem to have been born ~1960-61, but the 2T was still a few years away.

The definition of an Adaptive/Artist is that he/she was a child during the 4T, not yet old enough to engage in whatever is going on.

Thus, the last few annual cohorts of the 3T are almost always Adaptive, even though they are born before the 4T starts. If the 4T ends when you are a year too young to take part, S&H classify you as an Adaptive, even if you were in your late teens.







Post#2741 at 06-30-2002 10:32 AM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
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HC--

Thanks for that clarification. You're right. Those cusp years need some flexibility, which is reasonable. Still, removing God from public schools seems to me almost the inverse of removing Darwin from public schools. The significantly divisive effects come either way.

BTW: Prohibition ended in 1933. Would you suppose the War on Drugs will end sometime this decade?







Post#2742 at 06-30-2002 10:52 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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On 2002-06-30 08:32, Croaker'39 wrote:

HC--

Thanks for that clarification. You're right. Those cusp years need some flexibility, which is reasonable. Still, removing God from public schools seems to me almost the inverse of removing Darwin from public schools. The significantly divisive effects come either way.

BTW: Prohibition ended in 1933. Would you suppose the War on Drugs will end sometime this decade?
I wouldn't doubt it. In fact, it would appear that it is already winding down. The Feds have bigger, more dangerous fish to fry.







Post#2743 at 06-30-2002 11:57 AM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
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I wonder how soon the states will see revenue in pot legalization. Over half the states are dripping red in their budgets. If it's California's leading cash crop, as they say, then the taxes on it would add up to a huge number, and without enforcement costs.

In Washington state, pedophiles are given "home detention," while pot growers lose their homes altogether. The 4T will come with a different attitude about this; it may get worse before it gets better.







Post#2744 at 06-30-2002 02:36 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Epic struggles return, according to this article.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#2745 at 06-30-2002 02:45 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Will Generations reader Al Gore run a 4T-seque campaign?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0630-08.htm
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#2746 at 06-30-2002 07:09 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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On 2002-06-30 12:45, madscientist wrote:
Will Generations reader Al Gore run a 4T-seque campaign?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0630-08.htm
If he had done this last time, he'd have Walked into the office.







Post#2747 at 07-01-2002 12:28 AM by Rain Man [at Bendigo, Australia joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,303]
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On 2002-06-30 17:09, Earthshine wrote:
If he had done this last time, he'd have Walked into the office.
Prehaps, however Gore might be smarter enough to know that in 2000 the 4T was some time off. Gore has the potential to be a next Lincoln (both men have a similar personality type), if he has knowledge of the generational cycle, he can captialise on it big time.







Post#2748 at 07-01-2002 12:40 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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On 2002-06-30 08:32, Croaker'39 wrote:

HC--

Thanks for that clarification. You're right. Those cusp years need some flexibility, which is reasonable. Still, removing God from public schools seems to me almost the inverse of removing Darwin from public schools. The significantly divisive effects come either way.
You're assuming that Christianity and evolution are eternal enemies. They aren't, or don't have to be. But the effects on the schools simply reflect a basic divide within the American population.


BTW: Prohibition ended in 1933. Would you suppose the War on Drugs will end sometime this decade?
Yes and no. I suspect pot will end up legal, I don't think heroin and cocaine will in the foreseeable future. There isn't any single War on Drugs, there are several, each operating in different ways, some more succesful, some less.

Recall that Prohibition never totally lifted, some counties remain 'dry' to this day, and violation in a 'dry' county is still a Federal offense, IIRC.







Post#2749 at 07-01-2002 12:44 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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On 2002-06-30 22:28, Tristan Jones wrote:
On 2002-06-30 17:09, Earthshine wrote:
If he had done this last time, he'd have Walked into the office.
Prehaps, however Gore might be smarter enough to know that in 2000 the 4T was some time off. Gore has the potential to be a next Lincoln (both men have a similar personality type), if he has knowledge of the generational cycle, he can captialise on it big time.
Odds are the 4T won't be on us quite yet in 2004, either, unless something radical happens. 911 wasn't radical enough.

A lot depends, for Gore, on where the internal division in the American population has gone in two more years. If it remains fairly static, everything he does that fires up one faction (either one) alienates equal numbers of the other (Bush could have the same problem).







Post#2750 at 07-01-2002 02:41 AM by Max [at Left Coast joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,038]
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I don't post on these forums but, I am intrested deeply about the 4th turning et. al.

It's very intresting that the Al Gor article has been brought up. I mostly inhabit conservative talk news sites. I saw that article too.

Please tell me in a nut shell if you can, what is the mix of posters religious and non religious, and conservative and progressive.

What is the prevailing thought on the 1st Turning (the next one) will it be a more liberal ie: "one" earth, or earth first or;
a more like the 50's with return to traditional values.

Does the religious beliefs of posters sway their opinions as to how they forsee the 1st. Turning?
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