Yesterday, after watching our pious president mumble through another news conference, I was reminded of what James Garfield said just after he was shot: "Agghhhh!" And that's more eloquent than anything George W. ever said in his life.

If that clown is elected for a second term, then I'll pack my 4T duffle bag and hop on up to Canada.

On 2002-07-09 06:14, Croaker'39 wrote:

If that clown is elected for a second term, then I'll pack my 4T duffle bag and hop on up to Canada.

I hope you will have better luck with the voluble Mr. Chretien who speaks badly in two languages.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Virgil K. Saari on 2002-07-09 06:20 ]</font>

You've been fibbing to us, Croaker! You're really part of the Hollywood millionaire club (Rosie O'Donnell, Cher, Phil Donahue, David Geffen, Barbara Streisand, Pierre Salinger, Martin Sheen, Susan Sarandon, Whoopie Goldberg, and Alec Baldwin et al) who "swore" they'd leave the country if George W. Bush was elected President the first time around. (Think VH1 will do a Where are they now? show?)

Shallow, Croaker, very shallow. What, you miss all those tricks Clinton used to play with his cigars? :lol:






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2002-07-09 06:27 ]</font>

Every literary muscle in my brain turns into toad warts when I hear this fool speak. Ralph Nader is a lousy speaker, too, BUT HE SAYS SOMETHING.

Don't talk to me about Hollywood, Lambster. George W. clearly is NOT ready for prime time. He's a B movie. Worse!

If he were a proctologist, would you trust him where the sun don't shine?

On 2002-07-08 15:12, Eric A Meece wrote:

OK Earthshine; but I haven't been talking much about world government. On the new survey thread (I forgot the name), I mentioned some of the parameters I would like to see. But first, please be clear. You don't have to be under a world government, or even advocate one, to recognize that you are a citizen of the world. How does that follow? It is a matter of recognizing one's true identity as a child and expression of God and Planet Earth and as a member of Humanity.

How exactly in your opinion would such an entity govern? Would Nukes then belong to all people everywhere?

That makes sense. It's what was already proposed and scuttled by the Cold War back in 1945.

Scary thought. You couldn't see the Arabic nations then claiming they needed to be handed nukes since they were "everyone's property"? Perhaps you would trust Saddam with nukes, but I wouldn't. He has been all too happy to whack his own people when it suited his purposes, do you think he wouldn't happily do the same to us?

Would we all "vote" with each former country getting a vote? If not then how do you balance the needs of one group of people over another? Does each country become a state in the world government?

That would be pretty much like the UN is now. That might work.

The UN is pretty screwed up right now. The idea of the UN great, but in practice it hasn't really lived up to the plan. Again, I wouldn't want them telling us how to live.

How do you then merge economic systems? Who's system of laws do we use? Who's methods of determining guilt? Which methods of enforcement do we use? With all the "cultural relativism" out there, how do we work out who's right in these and other ethical issues?

There's a lot of common opinion. There are fewer and fewer states out there who don't believe in basic human rights. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights already exists and is decades old.

I am not sure when you last took an Ethics class. The last one I took was 1995, so if yours was since then, you may have had newer theories than I have. watching the news and keeping up with whatever thoughts in that field that I can, it still looks as if the multicultural phenomenon that says not only is every cultures Arts and language valid (I agree) but that you cannot judge one culture on another cultures values. The Taliban made women stay inside and away from society, even highly trained women like doctors were told to stay in the home and not practice their professions. By our culture that is wrong, and I believe personally that subjugation of women is a universal wrong. By the cultural relativism standpoint, we have no right to judge another culture no matter what it does to it's people. If we are all children of God and citizens of the world as you suggest, then yes, we do have the right to judge, and possibly a responsibility to help, our brothers and sisters being oppressed. Do you disagree?

I think the world government will be an extension and revision of those institutions that already exist. Most affairs and powers would still be at the local level, but world bodies can act as a check on conflicts and ambitions that get out of hand.

Again, I agree in theory, I just don't think humanity is ready yet to handle this without corruption setting in. Then you get BIG BROTHER for real, and on a global scale.

The world economy is pretty well blended already. Perhaps too much so. Capitalists need to realize the limits of their system. Events like Enron/Worldcom bring us a bit closer to this realization. A corporate economy will need to learn some things from socialism and Green ideas, and meanwhile the remaining Communist systems are opening up to trade. We would do well not to believe (as the freemarketeers in the media do) that the socialists need to adopt Western corporate ways entirely. A more mixed system needs to evolve.

Good point. No argument with that one.

We are farther along than provincial and imperialistic, fearful Americans "worried about their treasure" think. The Europeans are already doing it. Other regions are pooling their energies and powers too. Eventually (and sooner rather than later) we'll all pool (pull) together. The more we venture into space, outer and inner, the more we will realize that we are citizens of one planet among many others. We will then have our interests as planet Earth to maintain, as we deal with other races and beings out there.

The world government would be a splendid way of keeping rogue idiots like Saddam and OBL in their place. The world has already proven it will back us up in this when we are correct.

Very Star Trek of you :smile: - someday, maybe, within the next few Turnings? Not a chance.

I'm not worried about nations getting what they want from us. Perhaps you can enlighten me or refresh my memory what you are worried about. It seems to me that our trade policies are created by American corporations and their political apologists who are as eager as punch to JUST GIVE AWAY all our living standards and quality of life protections as fast as they can.

can you explain that one further? I don't see corporations giving away the store. I see them getting whatever they can for themselves.

I AM worried about globalism becoming corporate dominated; it will be a struggle to make the world society as fair as possible for everyone, and not a platform for an elite to dominate and exploit people and the environment and make everything in all cultures uniformly commercial like the USA is. THAT is the danger I see, not that other nations will steal from America. But perhaps I'm wrong; make me see.

This is the point ironically that we agree on. Corporations shouldn't rule the world. Neither should petty dictators or special interest groups either.

I don't think we are "uniformly commercial" yet. We could go that way if we are not careful. Watch how we deal with the Enron/Martha/CEO scandal of the week issues to see the direction we are going in.

_________________
"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
- Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Earthshine on 2002-07-09 09:55 ]</font>

Why do liberals hate America? What they really hate is the idea of the nation-state-because this conflicts with their one-world fantasy. In the case of Eric Meese this fantasy is so strong that he will gloss over cultural differences-even when the members of a foreign culture have values that are diametrically opposed to his.

Of course, people are bad guys if they aren't one big happy family-with people they have nothing in common with.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tim Walker on 2002-07-09 11:11 ]</font>

On 2002-07-09 11:07, Tim Walker wrote:
Why do liberals hate America? What they really hate is the idea of the nation-state-because this conflicts with their one-world fantasy. In the case of Eric Meese this fantasy is so strong that he will gloss over cultural differences-even when the members of a foreign culture have values that are diametrically opposed to his.

Of course, people are bad guys if they aren't one big happy family-with people they have nothing in common with.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tim Walker on 2002-07-09 11:11 ]</font>

P L E A S E!

I'm a liberal and I don't hate America! Get it? I hate it when people make the equation LIBERAL = HATES AMERICA.

I'm also leary of a world government as long as we have thugocracies and whatnot scum in control of countries. But maybe a couple of saeculi down the road, the one-world fantasy may be more realistic.

Oh, Croaker if you and people like you would ONLY live up to your promises. ..sigh... one can dream...

Know what? I haven't read the 4T in about 5 years or so. And something was bothering me about the posts here. Specifically they all so liberal boarderline Socialist/Communist.
So, I pulled out my book, and there it is in black and white. Page 238 pp3. and 242 pp1 and pp 4 and continuing to 243 pp1.( X'rs return to 'traditional values'.)

If S&H are God and the 4T is your gospel, the liberals are setting themselves up for obsolesence. As the'gods' say, X'rs will become more conservative. OH how sweet it is!

I started thinking back to my early 20's. Which some of you are, some are older and haven't found your 'ground' yet. I remember thinking there was this ominous presence 'out there' somewhere, some thing 'big' was going to happen, it was going to be very very bad. This bad thing what ever it was has the 'presence and feeling' of government, but, there was no proof. You just 'knew' it anyhow. This thing whatever it was, was a dark foreboding that came at times when you were lonely, at night on your bed alone, or on a downer high with friends. Then one day, a friend, or while browsing through the book store, your eyes fell upon the new gospel of your innermost Angst. THE FOURTH TURNING.
And it verified everything you thought you knew, and it made it real. We *are* in for something 'very, very, bad'. And it's all the Governments fault. So whomever is in charge is, by definition, the bad guy.

Well, I am here to tell you the good news!
This is just a stage you are going through, it's just crappy '20 something' angst.
And those of you who think more than you bleed will grow out of it. It's a positively wonderful feeling. I love it. It's so free.

And know what else? I am looking forward to the 4T with antisipation and excitement. Because I know my kids will be in a better place when they are my age. They won't have to deal with the "red and blue zones". I say bring it on the sooner the better. I know my
self, I know what I am capable of. Yes, and I know my God too, and what He is capable of. Thats why I am 100% confident that every thing will turn out GOOD. Things don't end at the 4T ,THEY GET BETTER.

But,if you wish to be punished for your blood guilt (for the sins of your ancestors.) Go right ahead, hell, why not start today? Every black person you see, pull out your wallet and give them half of what you got. It's only *FAIR* isn't it? And if you live in CA, AZ, TX, or NM. and you own property, go sign it over to the next Mexican you see. If you live in the South, Louisiana, Florida, Gorgia, and you own property there, sign it away to the French Government.
Or if you live anywhere on the Mississippi River, give all you own to the next American Indian you meet. That's fair right?
If you live in a dwelling made of wood, it is your moral duty to go plant 50 trees today. If you are in anyway of German descent, give 3/4 of what you possess to Adam Sandler, because he's Jewish *and* cute.

But, as for me the laws of my land are CLEAR,
according to the Constitution we cannot be tried/held gulity for 'blood guilt' or tried for a crime (ie:slavery) that although today is illeagal was perfectly leagal at the time it was practised.

So, go cry in your birkenstocks or run away to Canada, I'll stay here defending my part of the Blue zone, with my guns, {Because *of course* I am a Nazi} then when we prevail, you can slink back to the US and say you really did believe in our cause, but......

Thomas Jefferson, " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrannts."

On 2002-07-09 11:42, Jenny Genser wrote:
I'm also leary of a world government as long as we have thugocracies and whatnot scum in control of countries. But maybe a couple of saeculi down the road, the one-world fantasy may be more realistic.

Thugocracies? NICE word :grin: I like!

What Jenny said.

On 2002-07-09 11:54, justmom wrote:
Oh, Croaker if you and people like you would ONLY live up to your promises. ..sigh... one can dream...

Know what? I haven't read the 4T in about 5 years or so. And something was bothering me about the posts here. Specifically they all so liberal boarderline Socialist/Communist.

No, they aren't. There are plenty of posters here who are moderate, conservative, libertarian, and shades in between. That's the beauty of this community. We can have a healthy debate, shake up our thinking, challenge other posters, get our own opinions challenged, and have a little fun while doing it. If everyone here thought the same way, I'd have left a long time ago out of boredom.

So, I pulled out my book, and there it is in black and white. Page 238 pp3. and 242 pp1 and pp 4 and continuing to 243 pp1.( X'rs return to 'traditional values'.)

If S&H are God and the 4T is your gospel, the liberals are setting themselves up for obsolesence. As the'gods' say, X'rs will become more conservative. OH how sweet it is!

Well, that's the trouble with taking anything in print so literally, isn't it?

I suppose it's how you define "conservative." I look at it in this context: Xers will bust their individual and collective butts for the survival of this country and its future. We will hold back the Boomers from doing something really stupid, and we will shepherd the Millennials and New Artists successfully into the next saeculum. We will continue to respect individual rights and work for pragmatic solutions to our problems.

Well, I am here to tell you the good news!
This is just a stage you are going through, it's just crappy '20 something' angst.
And those of you who think more than you bleed will grow out of it. It's a positively wonderful feeling. I love it. It's so free.

"Think" more than you "bleed?" I don't get that phrase.

And know what else? I am looking forward to the 4T with antisipation and excitement. Because I know my kids will be in a better place when they are my age. They won't have to deal with the "red and blue zones". I say bring it on the sooner the better.

Well, I'd like to deal with the 4T as soon as possible and get it over with. It is time to sweep away the trash and rebuild.

I know my
self, I know what I am capable of. Yes, and I know my God too, and what He is capable of. Thats why I am 100% confident that every thing will turn out GOOD. Things don't end at the 4T ,THEY GET BETTER.

Well, let's hope so. :smile:

But,if you wish to be punished for your blood guilt (for the sins of your ancestors.) Go right ahead, hell, why not start today?

[snip]

You know what, justmom, I actually agree with you about the whole reparations business. How about that? :smile:

Ms. Genser implodes,
P L E A S E!

I'm a liberal and I don't hate America! Get it? I hate it when people make the equation LIBERAL = HATES AMERICA.

Yes, Ms. Genser, I do get it. And you are right, it is your left flank the truly hates America. My problem is that you're one of the very few that realise that... but even you will still vote for a radical lefty that even despises Israel, too. Why, coz voting for a conservative or a Republican is worse than death.

The problem remains. Your loud, obnoxious, America hating left flank is calling the "liberal" shots because liberals let them. You won't distance yourselves from them, thus you remain "painted with the same brush."




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2002-07-09 12:42 ]</font>

No, Liberals don't hate America... as a *group*. Certain individual liberals such as Europeans, Croaker, Hollywood, etc. hate America. Come on, croaker, even I can understand what he says and half the time I don't understand what people around me are saying.

Sure, croaker, go to Canada. One less of your votes.

On 2002-07-09 12:41, Marc Lamb wrote:

The problem remains. Your loud, obnoxious, America hating left flank is calling the "liberal" shots because liberals let them. You won't distance yourselves from them, thus you remain "painted with the same brush."

Marc, I believe Jenny just did distance herself from them.

Here's my message to Tom Cruise and Alec Baldwin: If you want to leave this country, fine. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

On 2002-07-09 12:56, Kiff '61 wrote:

Here's my message to Tom Cruise and Alec Baldwin: If you want to leave this country, fine. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Yeah! :lol:

On 2002-07-09 12:41, Marc Lamb wrote:
but even you will still vote for a radical lefty that even despises Israel, too. Why, coz voting for a conservative or a Republican is worse than death.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2002-07-09 12:42 ]</font>

My choice in November is between voting for a standard-issue liberal (not a far leftie) who tilts towards the Palestinians in the Middle East but strongly supports Federal workers, and his opponent (to be determined) who probably will strongly support Israel but belongs to a party that wins over voters by denigrating the Federal Government and the folks who work for it.

As a USDA employee, I'll end up voting my pocketbook, for a Congressman who respects the work that civil servants do, and overlook the fact that we don't see eye to eye on Israel. After all, I don't see eye-to-eye with Ariel Sharon either.

On 2002-07-09 11:54, justmom wrote:
Oh, Croaker if you and people like you would ONLY live up to your promises. ..sigh... one can dream...

...So, go cry in your birkenstocks or run away to Canada, I'll stay here defending my part of the Blue zone, with my guns, {Because *of course* I am a Nazi} then when we prevail, you can slink back to the US and say you really did believe in our cause, but......

Hey, I'm on to you, justmom. You're Dr. Laura, aren't you? There's a Lambchop guy in southern Ohio who would like to date you, 'cause he digs those pistol-packin' mammas.

Ms. Genser responds,
"My choice in November is between voting for a standard-issue liberal (not a far leftie) who tilts towards the Palestinians in the Middle East but strongly supports Federal workers..."

Tilts toward a people who encourage their children to wrap bombs around themselves and kill innocent women and children... And that ain't radical, Ms. Genser? Well yeah, but he supports Federal workers!

Two Americas... blah, blah, blah.

Know what? I haven't read the 4T in about 5 years or so. And something was bothering me about the posts here. Specifically they all so liberal boarderline Socialist/Communist.


No, they aren't. There are plenty of posters here who are moderate, conservative, libertarian, and shades in between. That's the beauty of this community. We can have a healthy debate, shake up our thinking, challenge other posters, get our own opinions challenged, and have a little fun while doing it. If everyone here thought the same way, I'd have left a long time ago out of boredom.

_____________________

Perhaps I stand corrected, I haven't been here too long. I does however seem the majority of the posts are indeed liberal.
_______________________
And those of you who think more than you bleed will grow out of it. It's a positively wonderful feeling. I love it. It's so free.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"Think" more than you "bleed?" I don't get that phrase.

It refers to "bleeding heart liberal".

________________________________

I suppose it's how you define "conservative." I look at it in this context: Xers will bust their individual and collective butts for the survival of this country and its future.

I am with you on that.
______________________

We will hold back the Boomers from doing something really stupid, and we will shepherd the Millennials and New Artists successfully into the next saeculum. We will continue to respect individual rights and work for pragmatic solutions to our problems.

I suppose it's how you define "really stupid"
I am of the opinion they've been doing so for a long time.
__________________________

P L E A S E!

I'm a liberal and I don't hate America! Get it? I hate it when people make the equation LIBERAL = HATES AMERICA.


Let's see....If you mean the dirt you stand on, I can agree with that. If you mean the principles upon which America was founded and makes us so unique, yes, liberals Hate America. Liberals hate free speach and love to empose hate crime legislation. Liberals hate guns and love criminals. Liberals hate 'religion' and love personal expression.
Liberals hate fatherhood.Liberals hate farmers and love field mice.Liberals hate sovernty and love mass illegal immigration. Liberals hate
SUV's and love to burn weed.

What will prevent the ICC from turning into a kangaroo court? Where is the accountability?

justmom,

You can use the Quote option to easily quote another's post. Just click the Quote button on their post that you wish to quote.

The button is located in the line of buttons, just beneath "sacrifice" in your quote "consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." -"

[quote]
On 2002-07-09 15:16, justmom wrote:
[quote]
As a liberal I agree with most of what you said except for that last part:
[quote]
Liberals hate free speach

Actually I prefer the marketplace of ideas that comes with free speech and the ensuing diversity of expression

and love to empose hate crime legislation.

I'm fairly undecided on that issue... while I feel that the motivation of the crime is nearly as important as the crime itself (should a guy who lost control while driving be considered the same as a cold-blooded murderer?) I think that race does not necessarily equal motivation

Liberals hate guns and love criminals.

I'm for responsible gun control (think Sweden or Switzerland); if someone can't hit 7 out of 10 targets they shouldn't be trusted with a gun (maybe that counts as 'hating guns' to some conservatives...) - and I don't exactly 'love' criminals more than anyone else; they should be punished to the extent that they're criminal but also rehabilitated to the extent that they're human

(Liberals hate 'religion' and love personal expression.

I agree with Thomas Jefferson on religion (that it's a personal matter between man and God) but I DO admit to loving personal expression - what's so unamerican about that?

Liberals hate fatherhood.

I love and respect my father; while I don't believe a mom-dad parenting is necessary, it IS important to grow up with a parent/parents who love you and allow you to grow into a responsible, mature adult

Liberals hate farmers and love field mice.

Huh?

Liberals hate sovernty and love mass illegal immigration.

Not really... I prefer immigration laws to be loosened but to have more careful screenings (for obvious reasons)

Liberals hate SUV's and love to burn weed.

I'm not the biggest SUV fan but if there was a petition for marijuana legalization I'd likely be the first to sign :smile:

On 2002-07-09 06:14, Croaker'39 wrote:

Yesterday, after watching our pious president mumble through another news conference, I was reminded of what James Garfield said just after he was shot: "Agghhhh!" And that's more eloquent than anything George W. ever said in his life

Today's Bush eloquence:

Bin Laden, the mastermind behind the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, "may be alive. If he is we'll get him. If he's not alive we got him," Bush said. But the issue is bigger than one person."

Sheeeesh. Is he talking up or down to THE PEOPLE? Surely, regardless of how you view his politics, this bothers some of you.

On 2002-07-09 16:05, cbailey wrote:

On 2002-07-09 06:14, Croaker'39 wrote:

Yesterday, after watching our pious president mumble through another news conference, I was reminded of what James Garfield said just after he was shot: "Agghhhh!" And that's more eloquent than anything George W. ever said in his life

Today's Bush eloquence:

Bin Laden, the mastermind behind the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, "may be alive. If he is we'll get him. If he's not alive we got him," Bush said. But the issue is bigger than one person."

Sheeeesh. Is he talking up or down to THE PEOPLE? Surely, regardless of how you view his politics, this bothers some of you.

:lol: I love the sound of a good Bushism in the evening

On 2002-07-09 11:42, Jenny Genser wrote:

P L E A S E!

I'm a liberal and I don't hate America! Get it? I hate it when people make the equation LIBERAL = HATES AMERICA.

I suspect that the equation holds better for the sort of extreme 'politically correct' leftists who can most easily be found on college and university campuses.

I'm also leary of a world government as long as we have thugocracies and whatnot scum in control of countries. But maybe a couple of saeculi down the road, the one-world fantasy may be more realistic.

I like 'thugocracies', too. As for 'a couple of saeculi', I don't think Brian Rush will wait that long. :lol:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jds1958xg on 2002-07-09 16:22 ]</font>