On 2002-07-09 18:28, Jenny Genser wrote:

On 2002-07-09 15:16, justmom wrote:
Liberals hate sovernty and love mass illegal immigration.

Actually, liberals are undecided about immigration.

There is one camp that supports it because of diversity, multiculturalism, and the like. Also some liberals that I know personally have done studies claiming that immigrants create more economic growth and income than they cost in social services.

The other camp believes that large numbers of unskilled immigrants (both legal and illegal) have depressed wages and made it harder for native born Americans (particularly African Americans) to find work. There are also environmentalists who feel that immigration causes excessive population growth, which is bad, and that immigration should be restricted on those grounds.

Conservatives are just as split. One camp dislikes them because they dilute American culture, require social services at higher rates than the native-born, and cost the tax payers dollars.

On the other hand, others like them because they provide a steady supply of low-wage workers. Our President falls into this camp.

Interesting point to bring up. Libertarian-types also are split on the immigration question.


On the one hand, the 'closed-borders' camp considers unauthorized immigration a form of trespass against the property owners in a country.


On the other hand, the 'open-borders' camp considers that, since so-called public lands are not, in fact, owned by anybody, there is no one against whom trespass is necessarily commited, and that the immigrants' rights to live their lives as they see fit do not preclude them from moving to such an unowned piece of land -- regardless of which country claims it.



Immigration seems to be one of those issues that crosses ideological lines pretty thoroughly.

On 2002-07-09 11:42, Jenny Genser wrote:

On 2002-07-09 11:07, Tim Walker wrote:
Why do liberals hate America? What they really hate is the idea of the nation-state-because this conflicts with their one-world fantasy. In the case of Eric Meese this fantasy is so strong that he will gloss over cultural differences-even when the members of a foreign culture have values that are diametrically opposed to his.

Of course, people are bad guys if they aren't one big happy family-with people they have nothing in common with.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tim Walker on 2002-07-09 11:11 ]</font>

P L E A S E!

I'm a liberal and I don't hate America! Get it? I hate it when people make the equation LIBERAL = HATES AMERICA.

I'm also leary of a world government as long as we have thugocracies and whatnot scum in control of countries. But maybe a couple of saeculi down the road, the one-world fantasy may be more realistic.

I don't doubt you for a moment, Jenny. But the leadership of the Democratic Party (at least some of its factions), and a disproportionate number of the most influential liberals, do fit Tim's description.

Hate is probably the wrong word. Frustration would come closer, they are deeply frustrated at their own perceived lack of progress, and they tend to wonder what's wrong with America that their ideas don't resonate more.

On 2002-07-09 18:54, Jenny Genser wrote:
[*]Tristan Jones -- odd to place because he's Australian. Sides with American conservatives on international policy.[/list]

Australia's political culture is different from America?s fewer libertarians and less religious. Issues which seem leftist in the USA are mainstream here, by Australian standards I am centre-right, however not firmly in the Right (like the socially conservative Tony Abbott and John Howard).

I consider myself a Hewson/Greinder Liberal party person, economically conservative and socially liberal. Although I tend to be conservative on some social issues like reconiliation (I opposed an apology to the Aborigines). Also on immigration I favor a assimlationist policy, instead of multiculturalism (i.e all immigrants coming into this country should be taught English and respect our laws and customs).

I am pretty 'conservative' on foregin policy that is true, because I bevelie the western liberal democracy society is the best form of society in the world.

On 2002-07-09 18:54, Jenny Genser wrote:
[*]jds1958xg -- moderate

Actually, I would class as a downright purblind neanderthal on international issues. (Just ask Eric.) On the domestic front, I tend to be moderate to just ever so slightly left of center on cultural issues, a little more to the left on economic ones, though not exactly a socialist. So, overall, I guess I could still be called a moderate.

On 2002-07-09 20:11, justmom wrote:

I think you may have hit on something Kiff. What if we start a new forum on solving some of these problems? ( Someone else will have to do that, I am not sure how. )What if we took an issue and discussed it, tried to hammer it out and 'solve' it? Not the way the senate or House of Reps. is doing, but, the way that makes the most sense to us. After all, the powers that be, won't "be" in a decade or two. Hopefully sooner. Let's not look at Bush, or Gore, but, the cause and effect and solution. How does that sound?

Here's an example of how this group debated the abortion issue recently. It took off on some tangents, but some good ideas were exchanged, and all in all, it was a pretty civil conversation.

It would be interesting to do some more serious debating here. However, I think we'd need someone to serve as a moderator to keep the thread on topic, as the tendency here is to be free-wheeling. It could be tricky to find someone who would be more or less neutral on some of these issues. But someone might be willing to step forward.

Wow! Do a Google search on "worldcom" + "clinton" and see how many hits ya get.


Pretty funny. :smile:




<FONT SIZE="-10">I hear tell that WorldCom is a "Clinton-based" corporation.</FONT>

That was interesting, Marc.

I got 16,100 hits when searching on Clinton and worldcom.

Then I tried Clinton and beer, and got 141,000 hits.

Then I tried Clinton and Elvis, and got 66,300 hits.

Then I tried Clinton and opera, and got 107,000 hits.

I'm not sure what the moral of the story is, though, perhaps you should explain.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Starkk on 2002-07-10 08:02 ]</font>

:smile:

Look at the bottom of my post... Worldcom in based in Clinton, Miss. My post was intended as a joke. :smile:







<FONT SIZE="-10">Yeah, but wasn't Clinton "the man from Hope"?</FONT>

Sounds like an opportunity to bust out the political selector.

My top three:

Libertarian

Radical

Paleoconservative

1 Paleo-conservative
2 Paleolibertarian
3 Conservative
4 Libertarian
5 Radical
6 Left Libertarian
7 Neo Conservative
8 Liberal
9 Centrist
10 Third Way

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Virgil K. Saari on 2002-07-11 12:49 ]</font>

And I:

Paleo-lib

Left lib

Lib (unmodified, I guess)

Not terribly entertaining, though the questions seemed fairly diverse.

An inverse Saari:

Paleo-libertarian

Paleo-conservative

Libertarian



Say, Justin, when you say "Lib," you do mean Libertarian, right? She's gonna think you mean Liberal.

My three are:
Liberal
Third Way
Radical

My top three...

1.
2.
3.

:smile:

I can't get SelectSmart.com to work for me today. Figures.

As if you didn't know mine are:
1.Conservative
2. Neoconservative
3. Paleoconservative

As if you didn't know mine are:
1.Conservative
2. Neoconservative
3. Paleoconservative

As if you didn't know, mine are:
1. Neo-Conservative
2. Conservative
3. Centrist
4. Third Way
5. Paleo-Conservative
6. Liberal
7. Libertarian
8. Paleo-Libertarian
9. Radical
10. Left-Libertarian

justmom, you posted yours twice.

justmom, you posted yours twice.

Here's my results.

Liberal
Radical
Third Way
NeoCon
Left-Libertarian
Centrist
Libertarian
Paleoconservative
Conservative
Paleolibertarian

Last time I took this I was 1. Radical; 2. Liberal

On 2002-07-10 16:50, Heliotrope wrote:

Here's my results.

Liberal

Teddy Kennedy or Thomas le Sieur d'Assh?le

Radical

Abbie Hoffman

Third Way

Bill Clinton

NeoCon

Bill (buuurrp) Bennett or David Horowitz

Left-Libertarian

Emma friggin' Goldman or Noam Chomsky

Centrist

Jim Jeffords

Libertarian

Harry Browne

Paleoconservative

Pat Buchanan

Conservative

Bush, Sr. or Jr. (associating conservatism with mercantilism or corporatism where paleo-conservatism is associated with capitalism)

Paleolibertarian

Thomas Jefferson

Last time I took this I was 1. Radical; 2. Liberal

Take radical. It sounds cooler.

On 2002-07-10 14:58, Stonewall Patton wrote:
Say, Justin, when you say "Lib," you do mean Libertarian, right? She's gonna think you mean Liberal.

Yes, of course. I mean 'libertarian'. I'm a lazy, lazy man. :wink:

I will clarify my political views. What reforms would I like to see during the Crisis era? Socialized health care for children. I would seriously consider a social tariff. Some provision to make folks' retirement portable, not tied to a single job. What about the environment? Tax rebates for corporations that adopt Green practices. Opening up the electoral system by using multimember districts. Opposing attempts to abrogate civil liberties and the traditional distinction between church and state.