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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 117







Post#2901 at 07-09-2002 11:33 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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07-09-2002, 11:33 PM #2901
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On 2002-07-09 18:28, Jenny Genser wrote:
On 2002-07-09 15:16, justmom wrote:
Liberals hate sovernty and love mass illegal immigration.
Actually, liberals are undecided about immigration.

There is one camp that supports it because of diversity, multiculturalism, and the like. Also some liberals that I know personally have done studies claiming that immigrants create more economic growth and income than they cost in social services.

The other camp believes that large numbers of unskilled immigrants (both legal and illegal) have depressed wages and made it harder for native born Americans (particularly African Americans) to find work. There are also environmentalists who feel that immigration causes excessive population growth, which is bad, and that immigration should be restricted on those grounds.

Conservatives are just as split. One camp dislikes them because they dilute American culture, require social services at higher rates than the native-born, and cost the tax payers dollars.

On the other hand, others like them because they provide a steady supply of low-wage workers. Our President falls into this camp.


Interesting point to bring up. Libertarian-types also are split on the immigration question.


On the one hand, the 'closed-borders' camp considers unauthorized immigration a form of trespass against the property owners in a country.


On the other hand, the 'open-borders' camp considers that, since so-called public lands are not, in fact, owned by anybody, there is no one against whom trespass is necessarily commited, and that the immigrants' rights to live their lives as they see fit do not preclude them from moving to such an unowned piece of land -- regardless of which country claims it.



Immigration seems to be one of those issues that crosses ideological lines pretty thoroughly.







Post#2902 at 07-10-2002 01:55 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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On 2002-07-09 11:42, Jenny Genser wrote:
On 2002-07-09 11:07, Tim Walker wrote:
Why do liberals hate America? What they really hate is the idea of the nation-state-because this conflicts with their one-world fantasy. In the case of Eric Meese this fantasy is so strong that he will gloss over cultural differences-even when the members of a foreign culture have values that are diametrically opposed to his.

Of course, people are bad guys if they aren't one big happy family-with people they have nothing in common with.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tim Walker on 2002-07-09 11:11 ]</font>
P L E A S E!

I'm a liberal and I don't hate America! Get it? I hate it when people make the equation LIBERAL = HATES AMERICA.

I'm also leary of a world government as long as we have thugocracies and whatnot scum in control of countries. But maybe a couple of saeculi down the road, the one-world fantasy may be more realistic.
I don't doubt you for a moment, Jenny. But the leadership of the Democratic Party (at least some of its factions), and a disproportionate number of the most influential liberals, do fit Tim's description.

Hate is probably the wrong word. Frustration would come closer, they are deeply frustrated at their own perceived lack of progress, and they tend to wonder what's wrong with America that their ideas don't resonate more.







Post#2903 at 07-10-2002 05:15 AM by Rain Man [at Bendigo, Australia joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,303]
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On 2002-07-09 18:54, Jenny Genser wrote:
[*]Tristan Jones -- odd to place because he's Australian. Sides with American conservatives on international policy.[/list]
Australia's political culture is different from America?s fewer libertarians and less religious. Issues which seem leftist in the USA are mainstream here, by Australian standards I am centre-right, however not firmly in the Right (like the socially conservative Tony Abbott and John Howard).

I consider myself a Hewson/Greinder Liberal party person, economically conservative and socially liberal. Although I tend to be conservative on some social issues like reconiliation (I opposed an apology to the Aborigines). Also on immigration I favor a assimlationist policy, instead of multiculturalism (i.e all immigrants coming into this country should be taught English and respect our laws and customs).

I am pretty 'conservative' on foregin policy that is true, because I bevelie the western liberal democracy society is the best form of society in the world.







Post#2904 at 07-10-2002 08:50 AM by jds1958xg [at joined Jan 2002 #posts 1,002]
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On 2002-07-09 18:54, Jenny Genser wrote:
[*]jds1958xg -- moderate
Actually, I would class as a downright purblind neanderthal on international issues. (Just ask Eric.) On the domestic front, I tend to be moderate to just ever so slightly left of center on cultural issues, a little more to the left on economic ones, though not exactly a socialist. So, overall, I guess I could still be called a moderate.







Post#2905 at 07-10-2002 09:19 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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On 2002-07-09 20:11, justmom wrote:

I think you may have hit on something Kiff. What if we start a new forum on solving some of these problems? ( Someone else will have to do that, I am not sure how. )What if we took an issue and discussed it, tried to hammer it out and 'solve' it? Not the way the senate or House of Reps. is doing, but, the way that makes the most sense to us. After all, the powers that be, won't "be" in a decade or two. Hopefully sooner. Let's not look at Bush, or Gore, but, the cause and effect and solution. How does that sound?
Here's an example of how this group debated the abortion issue recently. It took off on some tangents, but some good ideas were exchanged, and all in all, it was a pretty civil conversation.

It would be interesting to do some more serious debating here. However, I think we'd need someone to serve as a moderator to keep the thread on topic, as the tendency here is to be free-wheeling. It could be tricky to find someone who would be more or less neutral on some of these issues. But someone might be willing to step forward.









Post#2906 at 07-10-2002 09:20 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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Wow! Do a Google search on "worldcom" + "clinton" and see how many hits ya get.


Pretty funny. :smile:




<FONT SIZE="-10">I hear tell that WorldCom is a "Clinton-based" corporation.</FONT>







Post#2907 at 07-10-2002 10:01 AM by Starkk [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 61]
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That was interesting, Marc.

I got 16,100 hits when searching on Clinton and worldcom.

Then I tried Clinton and beer, and got 141,000 hits.

Then I tried Clinton and Elvis, and got 66,300 hits.

Then I tried Clinton and opera, and got 107,000 hits.

I'm not sure what the moral of the story is, though, perhaps you should explain.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Starkk on 2002-07-10 08:02 ]</font>







Post#2908 at 07-10-2002 10:20 AM by cbailey [at B. 1950 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,559]
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:smile:







Post#2909 at 07-10-2002 10:35 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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Look at the bottom of my post... Worldcom in based in Clinton, Miss. My post was intended as a joke. :smile:







<FONT SIZE="-10">Yeah, but wasn't Clinton "the man from Hope"?</FONT>







Post#2910 at 07-10-2002 12:50 PM by Chris Loyd '82 [at Land of no Zones joined Jul 2001 #posts 402]
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Sounds like an opportunity to bust out the political selector.

My top three:

Libertarian

Radical

Paleoconservative







Post#2911 at 07-10-2002 04:05 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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1 Paleo-conservative
2 Paleolibertarian
3 Conservative
4 Libertarian
5 Radical
6 Left Libertarian
7 Neo Conservative
8 Liberal
9 Centrist
10 Third Way

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Virgil K. Saari on 2002-07-11 12:49 ]</font>







Post#2912 at 07-10-2002 04:24 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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And I:

Paleo-lib

Left lib

Lib (unmodified, I guess)

Not terribly entertaining, though the questions seemed fairly diverse.


"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#2913 at 07-10-2002 04:58 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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An inverse Saari:

Paleo-libertarian

Paleo-conservative

Libertarian



Say, Justin, when you say "Lib," you do mean Libertarian, right? She's gonna think you mean Liberal.










Post#2914 at 07-10-2002 05:24 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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My three are:
Liberal
Third Way
Radical

"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#2915 at 07-10-2002 05:43 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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My top three...

1.
2.
3.

:smile:







Post#2916 at 07-10-2002 05:44 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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I can't get SelectSmart.com to work for me today. Figures.







Post#2917 at 07-10-2002 06:09 PM by Max [at Left Coast joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,038]
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As if you didn't know mine are:
1.Conservative
2. Neoconservative
3. Paleoconservative







Post#2918 at 07-10-2002 06:09 PM by Max [at Left Coast joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,038]
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As if you didn't know mine are:
1.Conservative
2. Neoconservative
3. Paleoconservative







Post#2919 at 07-10-2002 06:21 PM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
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As if you didn't know, mine are:
1. Neo-Conservative
2. Conservative
3. Centrist
4. Third Way
5. Paleo-Conservative
6. Liberal
7. Libertarian
8. Paleo-Libertarian
9. Radical
10. Left-Libertarian







Post#2920 at 07-10-2002 06:27 PM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
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justmom, you posted yours twice.







Post#2921 at 07-10-2002 06:27 PM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
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justmom, you posted yours twice.







Post#2922 at 07-10-2002 06:50 PM by Chicken Little [at western NC joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,211]
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Here's my results.

Liberal
Radical
Third Way
NeoCon
Left-Libertarian
Centrist
Libertarian
Paleoconservative
Conservative
Paleolibertarian

Last time I took this I was 1. Radical; 2. Liberal

It's like a bug high on the wall. You wait for it to come to you. When it gets close enough you reach out, slap out and kill it. Or if you like its looks, you make a pet out of it.
- Charles Bukowski







Post#2923 at 07-10-2002 07:13 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-07-10 16:50, Heliotrope wrote:

Here's my results.

Liberal
Teddy Kennedy or Thomas le Sieur d'Assh?le

Radical
Abbie Hoffman

Third Way
Bill Clinton

NeoCon
Bill (buuurrp) Bennett or David Horowitz

Left-Libertarian
Emma friggin' Goldman or Noam Chomsky

Centrist
Jim Jeffords

Libertarian
Harry Browne

Paleoconservative
Pat Buchanan

Conservative
Bush, Sr. or Jr. (associating conservatism with mercantilism or corporatism where paleo-conservatism is associated with capitalism)

Paleolibertarian
Thomas Jefferson


Last time I took this I was 1. Radical; 2. Liberal
Take radical. It sounds cooler.








Post#2924 at 07-10-2002 08:27 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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On 2002-07-10 14:58, Stonewall Patton wrote:
Say, Justin, when you say "Lib," you do mean Libertarian, right? She's gonna think you mean Liberal.
Yes, of course. I mean 'libertarian'. I'm a lazy, lazy man. :wink:







Post#2925 at 07-11-2002 12:11 AM by Tim Walker '56 [at joined Jun 2001 #posts 24]
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I will clarify my political views. What reforms would I like to see during the Crisis era? Socialized health care for children. I would seriously consider a social tariff. Some provision to make folks' retirement portable, not tied to a single job. What about the environment? Tax rebates for corporations that adopt Green practices. Opening up the electoral system by using multimember districts. Opposing attempts to abrogate civil liberties and the traditional distinction between church and state.
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