On 2002-07-09 18:54, Jenny Genser wrote:

On 2002-07-09 15:16, justmom wrote:
Know what? I haven't read the 4T in about 5 years or so. And something was bothering me about the posts here. Specifically they all so liberal boarderline Socialist/Communist.

Just out of curiousity, I took the 25 most frequent posters and tried to identify where they are on the political spectrum. Your perception is correct, in that I counted more liberals than conservatives. However, its not overwhelming. Here is how I see everyone. Please feel free to correct me if I've misread your politics.

• Stonewall Jackson -- libertarian
• Madscientist (Robert Reed) -- economically left of center, but supports right to bear arms
• Marc Lamb -- Christian Conservative
• Virgil Saari -- very conservative
• Webmaster -- no politics that I can discern
• Hopefully Cynic -- conservative
• Brian Rush -- liberal
• Kiff '61 -- liberal, but not knee jerk
• Heliotrope aka Susan Brombacher -- liberal
• JayN -- moderate
• Tim Walker -- I think liberal, but unsure
• Barbara, '31 Silent from Pleasantville -- a Republican but in the mold of Olympia Snowe or Senator Chaffee, not conservative
• Jenny Genser -- liberal
• Eric Meece -- very liberal
• Justin '79 -- disaffected
• Neisha -- liberal
• Agentwhatever aka mmailliw (William Meyerson) -- liberal
• jds1958xg -- moderate
• Tristan Jones -- odd to place because he's Australian. Sides with American conservatives on international policy.
• Angeli -- liberal
• Mike Alexander -- economically liberal but culturally moderate
• Kevin Parker -- moderate, culturally conservative in many ways
• JCarson -- libertarian
  
  The count is 5 conservatives (including the libertarians), 5 moderates, 1 disaffected, 1 unknown (Webmaster), 1 hard to classify (Tristan), and 12 left of center but in a variety of flavors. that's among the top 25 posters.
  

_________________
Living begins not on the day you are born
but on the day you recognize your consciousness -- Prem Rawat

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jenny Genser on 2002-07-09 18:55 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jenny Genser on 2002-07-09 18:56 ]</font>

Sounds about right (you identified me correctly!) although I would NOT place libertarians in the same camp as conservatives (because I care more about social issues than economic ones)

#1 Liberal
#2 Radical
#3 Third Way
#4 Left-libertarian
#5 Centrist
#6 Neoconservative
#7 Libertarian
#8 Paleoconservative
#9 Conservative
#10 Paleo-libertarian

Funny... I would have guessed I was more libertarian or paleocon than neocon, but at least they got my top 2-3 right

That's a good idea listing all ten. It perhaps provides a better sense of what factions are capable of melding in the future.


#1 Paleo-libertarian
#2 Paleoconservative
#3 Libertarian
#4 Left-libertarian
#5 Radical
#6 Conservative
#7 Neoconservative
#8 Centrist
#9 Liberal
#10 Third Way


The interesting thing is that the ordering is consistent with increasing distance from #1, paleo-libertarian, which says a lot for the quiz. And each of the four quadrants of the political grid are hit in order:


Paleo-libertarian, Paleo-conservative, and Libertarian = Libertarian Right

Left-libertarian and Radical = Libertarian Left

Conservative and Neo-conservative = Authoritarian Right

Centrist = n/a

Liberal and Third Way = Authoritarian Left


This demonstrates how I in the Libertarian Right could more easily work with the Libertarian Left than the Authoritarian Right. Undoubtedly, some in the Libertarian Right would find themselves closer to the Authoritarian Right.

On the other hand I don't think of myself as politically correct. As I see it, this is a refusal to think for ones self, to embrace dogma. Like sheep. And I don't view human nature as perfectable, so I probably sound like that Lost politician (as quoted by S&H) who said that we are all cannibals under the skin. On some matters I'm inclined to say "whatever"-for example, the pledge of allegiance thing, I deem vague references to God ("In God We Trust") as harmless relics rather than an imposition.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tim Walker on 2002-07-11 06:50 ]</font>

Analysis for those who have already posted their full list:

Alex: Cleanly in Authoritarian Right with Libertarian Left cleanly last. As we go down his list, there is balance between the Authoritarian Left and Libertarian Right. However the Authoritarian Left precedes the Libertarian Right in each swing. Alex really is squarely in the Authoritarian Right quadrant however he is slightly more likely to work with the Authoritarian Left than the Libertarian Right.

Susan: All over the map. However her Authoritarian Left appears to outweigh her Libertarian Left and, consistently, her opposing Libertarian Right carries the least weight. She is perhaps a third of the way into the Authoritarian Left from the Libertarian Left and could more easily work with the Libertarian Left than the Authoritarian Right.

William: Something of a cusper between the Authoritarian Left and Libertarian Left. However the Authoritarian Left precedes the Libertarian Left in each swing and, consistently, his opposing Libertarian Right rates last. William falls on the Authoritarian Left side of the Authoritarian Left/Libertarian Left cusp and he could work easily with the Libertarian Left. He probably is not all that far removed from Eric Meece.

Somebody posted a comment that the economy must be regulated-in my view it is probably so complex that practicality requires this-but the question is whom should it be regulated on behalf of? I view government's role as that of an impartial, fair minded referee. The point is to keep everybody honest.

When Eric mentioned the less frequent posters, I thought - that might say a lot in itself. Is there a different balance among the "lurkers" than there is among the more active? So for reference, here is my profile:

#1 Liberal
#2 Third Way
#3 Radical
#4 Left-libertarian
#5 Centrist
#6 Neoconservative
#7 Libertarian
#8 Conservative
#9 Paleo-libertarian
#10 Paleoconservative

... which places me in the common (to this forum) Liberal/Radical/ThirdWay crowd.

"When Eric mentioned the less frequent posters, I thought - that might say a lot in itself. Is there a different balance among the "lurkers" than there is among the more active?"

Judging from the number of "views" compared to the number of posts on each thread (given that a typical post requires several views to edit and such), I have figured that about 20-25 people are either posting or just lurking at this site on a daily basis.

And I think I'm being generous on that.

My full scale:

1. Paleo-libertarian
2. Left-libertarian
3. Libertarian
4. Paleo-conservative
5. Radical
6. Conservative
7. Centrist
8. Third Way
9. Liberal
10. Neo-conservative



I think the IP question (punishing Napster) is the break point between libertarian and left-libertarian. I'm not sure how valid that is, but whatever....

Hi!

Unable to get results.

It looks like David is in the Authoritarian Left quadrant but favorably disposed toward the Libertarian Left. Justin is in the Libertarian Right quadrant but ever so close to the Libertarian Left border. He merges with the Libertarian Left with little difficulty. JDS looks to be squarely in the Authoritarian Left quadrant bur favors cooperation with the Libertarian Left slightly more than the Authoritarian Right.


Eric (and Kiff too, I think), you need to close out your browser, find your "hosts" file on your computer, rename it, then reopen your browser and take the test. Once finished, rename "hosts" back to its proper name and it will return to blocking whatever IP addresses as soon as you close out your browser again. This will probably solve your problem.

#1 Conservative

#2 Neoconservative

#3 Paleoconservative

#4 Centrist

#5 Paleo-libertarian

#6 Libertarian

#7 Third Way

#8 Liberal

#9 Radical

#10 Left-libertarian

Stonewall, your by-line, "anybody but Bush in '04" Bush seems to be somewhat of a military leader ( I didn't like how he told Israel to back down from agression against Arafat, but, as the show goes on, I like that the US has said, "No more dealings with Arafat".) But, I do like his stand, 'If you aren't with us your against us.' And, things seem to be moving along in our "war against terrorism" ( although I believe as much as we watched the whole war in Kwait sp? we are getting the equal and opposite of the war on terror in Afganistan. )
So my question.... "Stonewall Patton" 2 of Americas greatest generals, and VERY pro military agression, what's the beef with Bush?

Tim Walker,
Glad to hear of your ambivilance toward, "In God We Trust" or "One Nation Under God".

As a Christian who believes in those ideals, it's hard for me to understand what someone might find offensive about them. It in no way supports ANY specific religion. Even if you are a pure blood Atheist ( of which there are few ) It seems like a big "Whatever" to me.


In the intrest of hashing out ideas, I was wondering about (a moot point now because of vouchers?) God and schooling. I know there are many Christians who want to see prayer back in school. I would be happy to just have NO God in school. If we are going to swallow the line about 'separation of church and state'. Then lets go for it ALL way.
Schools should teach ONLY, Reading, Math, History, Science,Spelling, English and extra curricular Art and Music.

But, again, I am totally perplexed as to what offense the Golden Rule " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
causes anyone, especially in a class full of 7 year olds.
Or the 10 Commandments, the first 3 I get your point, but, the last 7? Don't Steal, Don't Murder, etc... If someone really has an intellectual problem with that I am curious to know why?

Stonewall, here's my Top 10:


#1 Libertarian

#2 Radical

#3 Paleoconservative

#4 Liberal

#5 Neoconservative

#6 Centrist

#7 Paleo-libertarian

#8 Left-libertarian

#9 Conservative

#10 Third Way

On 2002-07-11 10:48, justmom wrote:


...In the interest of hashing out ideas, I was wondering about (a moot point now because of vouchers?) God and schooling. I know there are many Christians who want to see prayer back in school. I would be happy to just have NO God in school. If we are going to swallow the line about 'separation of church and state'. Then lets go for it ALL way.

Schools should teach ONLY, Reading, Math, History, Science, Spelling, English and extra curricular Art and Music...

Do you think that there is some form of "God in school" that is contrary to your beliefs? And was the failure to include languages other than English intentional, or merely an oversight? I'm more than a little curious.

I switched over from Netscape to IE and it worked this time:

#1 Liberal
#2 Radical
#3 Third Way
#4 NeoCon
#5 Left Libertarian
#6 Centrist
#7 Conservative
#8 Libertarian
#9 Paleocon
#10 Paleolib

Very close to Susan's profile.

No surprises here:

1. Liberal
2. Third Way
3. Radical
4. Left Libertarian
5. Neo-con
6. Centrist
7. Conservative
8. Libertarian
9. Paleo-lib
10. Paleo-con

On 2002-07-11 10:33, justmom wrote:

So my question.... "Stonewall Patton" 2 of Americas greatest generals, and VERY pro military agression, what's the beef with Bush?

Where do I begin? In general, I stand for restoration of the constitutional republic or at least implementation of some form of constitutionally limited government (i.e. powers restricted to those specifically enumerated). This Bush crowd has done exactly what I knew they would as soon as this puppet was thrust forward back in 1999: consolidate federal power like never before. No surprise at all and nothing that I could even support on my deathbed.

I was a Reagan Republican 20 years ago and I still want government to do precisely the same thing today: DEVOLVE POWER. The only reason I have opposed the Democrats all these years is because they openly admitted that they wished to consolidate power. On the other hand, we were always led to believe that the Republicans stood for "less government" (i.e. DEVOLUTION OF POWER) However this Bush crowd, being corporatists as opposed to capitalists, has a vested interest in consolidating governmental power to their advantage every bit as much as the Democrats. At least the Democrats are honest about it. Therefore, in my estimation, this Bush crowd occupies an even lower rung of the human ladder than Clinton (who himself as a "New Democrat" was a corporatist funded by precisely the same people...meet the new boss, same as the old boss).

So George W. Bush has gotten through some pathetic joke of a tax cut designed to never take effect anyway. Fine, but did he DEVOLVE POWER? No? Then he can take that "theoretical" tax cut and shove it up his you-know-what! I would continue the list but I cannot think of anything else he has done which advances the alleged "conservative agenda" which we have heard so much about all these years. But any window dressing presented by Machiavellian scumbag Karl Rove, like this stupid tax cut, should be ignored. The only thing that matters at this point is whether Junior has DEVOLVED POWER in any way whatsoever. He hasn't? Then Junior can take himself and whatever crowd he fronts for and go to hell!

Stonewall: Look what I found.

"And the world is in a strange place." Mei-Ling said, interrupting. "and all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing. Yes, yes--I agree already. I'll help you, before you start talking about how the best lack all conviction and the worst are full of passionate intensity. Your 'Light' has already prepared me for this, I think. Now let's come in out of the rain a moment, shall we, and have some tea a the inn? Then maybe we can start making our plans as if we were rational people in a rational world."

Standing Wave, a novel by Howard V. Hendrix
( page 54)

By the way:

#1. Radical

#2. Liberal

#3. Left-Libertarian

Didn't think to write down all ten. Now they are gone. I can say that paleo or conservative anything will be at the bottom of the list.

On 2002-07-11 12:19, David '47 wrote:

On 2002-07-11 10:48, justmom wrote:


...In the interest of hashing out ideas, I was wondering about (a moot point now because of vouchers?) God and schooling. I know there are many Christians who want to see prayer back in school. I would be happy to just have NO God in school. If we are going to swallow the line about 'separation of church and state'. Then lets go for it ALL way.

Schools should teach ONLY, Reading, Math, History, Science, Spelling, English and extra curricular Art and Music...

Do you think that there is some form of "God in school" that is contrary to your beliefs? And was the failure to include languages other than English intentional, or merely an oversight? I'm more than a little curious.

English was more or less an oversight. Initially I ment it like sentence stucture, grammer that type of thing.
But, yes, a second language would be of great benefit. And I would prefer seeing the second language from very early grades, not starting in High School.

As to your question " Do you think that there is some form of "God in school" that is contrary to your beliefs? ".
Yes, if you are willing to agree with me on this point- Religion is a basis of beliefs and values which believers of said religion try to live their life accordingly.-

If that is true, than I would like to make the point that Moral Relativism, and/or Secular Humanism is a form of religion.

Moral Relativism teaches you can't judge anothers culture by your own. Or there is no right or wrong. This teaching is diametrically opposed to everything I believe. And it's being taught in school.
As is, meditating to find your spirit guide.
Which is introduced when children are taught about American Indians. My religion teaches that this is what you do if you want to open yourself up to demonic presence. So, you see how that can be a teaching opposing my beliefs. Also the California school system has a Social Studies book in the 7th grade curriculum which has 12 chapters. ( Keep in mind that the school year has 9 months) For 2 full months children are taught from 2 chapters on Islam. In these 2 months children memorize the Koran, take on a Islamic name, simulate Ramadan by fasting, memorize the 5 tennants of Islam, and more.

Also a bill that passed the CA assembly last year or perhaps the year before, mandated that children will be taught sexual tolerance starting with 1st. grade. ( When plain old sex ed isn't even introduced until 5th grade.)I know that one can certainly make the point this really doesn't have anything to do with God per se. What I am opposed to is that the schools are teaching about sex of any sort to children who are merely trying to figure out how to tie their shoe laces. Also the refusal to teach absinence alongside of safe sex. I think teens of that age are certainly in for a lot of sexual pressure, but, I don't like the assumption that 'well they are going to do it anyway'. I say give them some ammuntion to say, No. Since they are shown "the safe way" to say , Yes.


_________________
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." - J.F.K.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: justmom on 2002-07-11 14:46 ]</font>

On 2002-07-11 14:18, justmom wrote:
[Also the California school system has a Social Studies book in the 7th grade curriculum which has 12 chapters. ( Keep in mind that the school year has 9 months) For 2 full months children are taught from 2 chapters on Islam. <u>In these 2 months children memorize the Koran, take on a Islamic name, simulate Ramadan by fasting, memorize the 5 tennants of Islam, and more</u>.

(emphasis mine).

WOW!

Those Millies in Cally really do get pushed hard!

:grin:


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Justin '77 on 2002-07-11 14:30 ]</font>

Justmom is in the Authoritarian Right quadrant and has a much greater affinity for union with the the Libertarian Right than with the Authoritarian Left.


Chris Loyd has about the funkiest pattern imaginable. He is truly all over the map! How on earth did you get that, Chris? My guess is that Chris is not quite a centrist, but he is probably less ideological than most here. In fact he may be concerned with a few specific issues and not really care about others. Is this about right, Chris?

The only way I can interpret this is that he is marginally off the center in the Libertarian Right quadrant. And then he demonstrates a marginal preference for partnership with the Libertarian Left over the Authoritarian Right. Perhaps the best way to state it is that he is more concerned with freedom than with order but he is unusually pragmatic about it. I would simply call him a pragmatic libertarian which may in fact be more of a populist than anything else. Does that sound about right, Chris? If not, you might reevaluate your answers and see if you come up with a more consistent spread.


Kiff is in the Authoritarian Left quadrant. She is somewhat close to the Libertarian Left border but not quite the cusper that William is. If anything, she is close to Susan's position (if I remember Susan's position correctly). And she more easily melds with the Libertarian Left than with the Authoritarian Right.


Neisha is a trip (why doesn't this surprise me?)! She is clearly in the Authoritarian Left quadrant but her pattern is very similar to mine, however on a completely different axis. I picked up the Libertarian Right factions all in a row and then picked up the Libertarian Left factions, also in a row. Only then did I pick up anything at all in the Authoritarian half of the chart and it was the Authoritarian Right factions, again in a row, followed by the Authoritarian Left factions, yet again in a row. In other words, I went quadrant by quadrant, first taking the two Libertarian quadrants before taking the two Authoritarian quadrants.

Neisha ALSO went quadrant by quadrant. HOWEVER, she first took the Authoritarian Left quadrant followed by the Libertarian Left quadrant. Then she took the Authoritarian Right quadrant followed by the Libertarian Right quadrant. In other words, where I picked up all the Libertarian factions before moving onto the Authoritarian side of the board, Neisha picked up all the left-wing factions before moving onto the right side of the board. It is a 90 degree axis shift starting from opposite quadrants.

Neisha must be about as "bleeding heart" as they come. She is in the Authoritarian Left and she clearly melds with the Libertarian Left long before the Authoritarian Right. I would guess that Neisha is far more ideological than comes across in her posts.


There is possibly a pattern developing here among T4T posters. Thus far, I am not sure that anybody discussed has been in the Libertarian Left as their primary quadrant (although I know that some posters here are). However the vast majority of those considered show the Libertarian Left as their second (i.e. melding) quadrant, regardless of whether their primary quadrant is the Authoritarian Left or Libertarian Right.

I think of the Libertarian Left quadrant as a big Delta sign because it represents the catalyst for change, especially in 4Ts. The results suggest to me that each of us generally has a somewhat unique vision for the future, but most importantly that we are all enormously interested in finding ways to realize our dreams for this nation and/or the world. We are all looking for ways to "make it happen" rather than sitting back and watching the world go by. The commonality of the secondary Libertarian Left Delta is what enables those of us in opposing quadrants to get along despite our differences when the majority of people in the outside world who fall in those same quadrants can never see past those differences for the lack of a secondary Libertarian Left Delta. I'll bet that future posted results generally reinforce this secondary Libertarian Left Delta. It is pretty interesting really.

Fantastic analysis Stonewall. I would hold hands with a Libertarian anyday. I will NEVER see eye to eye with a far left Liberal.

BTW... Did *anybody* say "Yes, decriminalize cocaine?" And if you did say yes, have you ever lived with, or, been the victim of someone elses cocain use?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: justmom on 2002-07-11 15:04 ]</font>

A Mostly Lurker:

1. Liberal
2. Third Way
3. Radical
4. Centrist
5. Left-libertarian
6. Neoconservative
7. Paleoconservative
8. Paleo-libertarian
9. Conservative
10. Libertarian