Eric's scores:

#1 Liberal
#2 Radical
#3 Third Way
#4 Left-libertarian
#5 Centrist
#6 Neoconservative
#7 Libertarian
#8 Paleoconservative
#9 Paleo-libertarian
#10 Conservative

Eric is an Authoritarian Left/Libertarian Left cusper favoring the Authoritarian Left side of the cusp. And he shows a fairly uniform bounce back and forth across the horizontal certerline all the way across the board from Left to Right. He is Authoritarian Left with a Libertarian Left meld.

Ms. Genser enlightens us,
"So if you associate liberalism with your drunken orgies from your wild and wooly youth, you will hate it (and also hate Clinton). However, if your liberal role models are ... well, appropriate role models, even if you disagree on the issues, your disagreements will certainly be less vehement."

I think I now understand where you're coming from, Ms. Genser. And, quite frankly, I really wish you were right on with your vision of post-modern liberalism. But you're not. 9/11 may, or may not change that (I'm not hopeful), but you really do need to understand the actual truth about where liberalism stands today in relation to the past.

In other news... A clarification is in order here (brace yourself, this one is gonna be fun!):

Yesterday...

Mr. Meyerson wondered,
"hmm... Libertarian = #1, Radical = #2, and Left-libertarian = #3; all are either libertarian or left-libertarian; it seems like you're more left-libertarian than anything else, but I'm wondering how you got liberal in dead last! Maybe the test isn't *completely* accurate." :razz: ...

Marc Lamb responded,

Is the test accurate?

Pretty loaded questions, if you ask me.
Example:
15. Do you support taxpayer funded vouchers to help parents send their children to the public or private school of their choice?

Wouldn't a more neutral question read:
15. Do you support a method that would allow parents to send their children to the school of their choice?


Ms. Bailey pondered,
"If you are attempting to identify a political type...why would you want the questions neutral?"

Marc Lamb responded,

My point, precisely. :smile:

Ms. Bailey was :???:

A test? A poll?

Finally... :smile:

Marc Lamb clarifies,

Ever seen the movie Blade Runner?

"Your in a desert walking along the sand when all of a sudden you look down and you see a tortoise. The tortoise lays on its back, it's belly baking in the hot sun beating its legs trying to run itself over, but it can't, not without your help... But your not helping!"

"Is this to be an empathy test? Capillary dilation of the so-called blush response? Fluctuation of the pupil? Involuntary dilation of the iris?"

"We call it Voight-Kampff for short."

In the movie, the "Voight-Kampff machine" was a polygraph "Empathy Profile," devised to gauge involuntary reaction to certain stimuli. A noticeable lack of emotional response to questions dealing with the possibility of imminent harm or death coming to animals has in the past been a reliable barometer for a blade runner to decide whether his subject is human or replicant, and thus subject to retirement.

Well, it's the same thing with the heavily loaded "Select Smart" b.s. political profile test. Only it ain't about animals and you, it's about the role of authority and you. :smile:

Oh, 25 posts per page...*that* explains it!

I would like to come back on 3 conditions:

1. I dont neglect my kids with time spent here.

2. You all will graciously accept my appology for coming out as a ball busting you-know-what. For being hypocritical in my posts in accusing you all of things I am gulity of too.

and
3. You never let me swear again. YUCK, Sorry!

If you agree, in that case I would like to invite you, especially Jenny, to my new forum.

Here is, I believe, a prediction that 2004 will be the realignment election which would suggest that we are now in 4T. It is written by a former Bush network insider with continuing contacts on the "inside." However his information has been of mixed quality in the past. For example, much of what he stated in his "Nazi eagle" postage stamp column was proved wrong. But a number of other things he has stated regarding fraud at the Huntsville Arsenal and "homeland defense" developments were later proven true. Exercise caution and judge for yourself.

I will excerpt this column so as to capture the flavor and flow of it:


http://www.almartinraw.com/column63.html

(Excerpted. For educuation and discussion purposes only.)


BEHIND THE SCENES IN THE BELTWAY

by Al Martin

The Bush Cabal: Turning the USA into a Banana Republic


(July 15) George Bush Jr. has appointed Richard Breeden as special investigator to investigate the collapse of WorldCom. It was, of course, Richard Breeden, in his former capacity as SEC Commissioner, who directed the investigation of Harken Energy - three times no less. There were three separate SEC investigations into Harken Energy, and through the influence of George Bush Sr. (who put the arm on him), Breeden gave George Bush Jr. a Get Out Of Jail Free card. What do you think Breeden will discover in the WorldCom case?

The final SEC reports clearly stated that George Bush Jr. committed stock fraud. Bush didn't disclose his holdings. He sold the stock short before. He sold out his long positions after having pumped up the stock with a lot of deceptive and bullish hype. Then he would sell it short before news about the negative earnings came out. (See excerpt on Bush's Harken Stock Fraud from "The Conspirators" http://www.almartinraw.com/harken.html)

Harken Energy, after all, was a typical Bush pump-and-dump stock swindle. The Bushes had manipulated the stock consistently between about 1-1/4 and about 7-3/4 dollars a share. (Even I made money on it)

Harken was a stock that the Bushes gave tips around to pay off favors. In other words, you'd be told when to sell it or when to buy it. This was a stock, which had nothing to do with what the company actually did. The company's stock acted as an artifice to pay off favors. There were the useless Bahrainian oil leases, even though Harken Energy never even produced that much oil. It wasn't about the oil business. It was simply about manipulating the shares in order to generate profits on both the long and the short sides.

Putting Breeden in charge, then, is another case of putting the fox in charge of the henhouse - to find out where the missing chicken went.


[snip]


In the WorldCom Hearings in Congress, a lot of guys invoked their Fifth Amendment privilege, but there was this little short guy with dark hair who meekly says, Well, Senator, I'd love to talk, but the only reason I'm invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege is because I don't have all of my money moved out of the country yet." He actually said that. He should be given a gold star for speaking the truth.

Bush was caught playing along to the crowd again. He acted exasperated with all this talk of Generally Accepted Accounting Principles. He said if you were to ask Americans what Generally Accepted Accounting Principles are, nine out of ten wouldn't know. Then he throws his hands up in the air and says, "Hell, I don't even know what it means."

It should be added that perhaps that's why in George Bush's capacity as a private businessman during his life, the four businesses he ran - all failed.

Remember, all you aspiring Harvard MBA grads -- that's what an MBA from Harvard will get you. You can fail your way to the top. Especially if your last name is Bush.

Then Bush gave his big speech about unveiling a plan to fight corporate fraud and to rectify all these accounting problems. It was an extremely disappointing speech. The market immediately sold off afterwards. He said the SEC doesn't need more legislation. All he did was ask for more money for the SEC. It doesn't need more regulatory authority, he says. It simply needs a billion dollar increase in its budget to enforce the regulations already on the books.

This, they claim, is the consistent problem they've had. They just don't have the money to enforce the regulations. And under his breath, he said, "Thank God."

There was an excellent comment on his speech by William Niskanen, the head of the Cato Institute. He said that Bush specifically avoided the other half of the problem. Although he talked about the accounting problem, he deliberately sidestepped the problem of Republican connected fraud within corporations. He is not proposing any new regulations to curtail the actual fraud part of this problem. It is a two-part problem, 1. Accounting, and 2. The actual commission of fraud.

When Niskanen was asked on CNBC, do you think somebody will have to go to jail just to make a point to the American people that something is being done? Niskanen smiled and said, "I'm sure that the White House is busily looking through the short list of Democratic scamscateers to try to find someone to put into jail."

The problem is that there are so few Democrats connected to this fraud, so it is indeed a short list. He did mention however Global Crossing in which there were some Democrat scamscateers involved.

(Should we expect an indictment of DNC Chairman Terry McAuliffe in the near future? Niskanen said, if I were Terry McAuliffe I'd be looking at this with furrowed brows.)

Then on the Kudlow and Kramer Show (Larry Kudlow being the well known economist and Reagan-Bush apologist), their guest was one of the most prominent arch Right Wing Cabalists, namely C. Boyden Grey, former White House counsel under both Reagan and Bush Regimes, who was famous for forging the signature during the October Surprise Affair.

Grey was the one who signed his name as "Charles Smith" on the hotel register in Paris, when he went with Bush Sr. for the secret meeting with the Iranians.

The other guest was Arch-Bush Cabalist Bill Seidman, who was accused of fraud during his tenure as RTC Chairman. While he was at the Resolution Trust Corporation (RTC), he was accused of practicing the same type of Republican Cabalist real estate fraud that was previously practiced by the very same banks that he was overseeing in liquidation.

Seidman was actually selling the defaulted properties and mortgages back to his Cabalist friends at twenty cents on the dollar - after they had been previously sold for twenty cents on the dollar some fourteen times before.

C. Boyden Gray was very much in favor of President Bush's new plan to get tough with corporate Republican fraud. Larry Kudlow said this is very tough - preventing Republican cabalists from serving on boards of directors ever again. This was awful punishment, he said. (It's almost as bad as being a Republican cabalist in your multi-million dollar beach house at Cayman Brac and being told that there's no more cracked crab with lobster sauce for lunch.)

C. Boyden Grey, on the other hand, supported the new line that if you come clean and tell the truth, then you won't face any criminal sanctions and you will be allowed to quietly go to your Caribbean or Swiss retreats with your ill-gotten gains.

Kramer said that people should be allowed to only keep so much money and that they should have to forfeit a lot of the proceeds of fraud.

But Larry Kudlow said, "Obviously you haven't been to the Cayman Islands recently, and you don't realize that the cost of living has gone up. If you're a Republican Scamscateer in exile, with these low interest rates, you need to have at least $10 million to have even a reasonable standard of living in the Cayman Islands."


[snip]


Larry Klayman's group Judicial Watch filed suit against Vice President Dick Cheney alleging that in his capacity as CEO at Halliburton, he undertook a massive scheme to defraud Halliburton shareholders, including false accounting and stock manipulation, which was specifically designed to enrich Republican cabalists.

At the same time, the SEC announced that it has stepped up its investigation of Halliburton. They are investigating alleged accounting irregularities and certain offshore limited partnership deals which Cheney formed with other Bush Cabalists such as James Baker and Frank Carlucci of the Carlyle Group. Klayman claims that Cheney used Halliburton simply as an organization to enrich Republican interests.

Meanwhile the market has entered an odd type of decline, i.e., when monthly economic statistics issued by the US Government clearly indicate that the economy is beginning to grow again.

Most stock ratings services have announced that stock profits are going to be up. This is actually a time, when you'd think the market would begin to rally - but it doesn't.

A recent poll indicates that 78% of American investors have simply lost confidence in the Bush Administration and their ability to root out corporate fraud and their ability to soundly manage the economy.

In other words, relatively good economic news is not overcoming the loss of investor confidence-a dangerous sign. This is a sign that investors are no longer acting rationally and that there is an irrational fear in the market.

If the economy were growing stronger, the normal reaction would be for people to buy stocks. The fraud is only part of it. Stock prices are relatively cheap and probably already reflect the fraud to a great degree. So this is a dangerous cycle we have now entered, when there is an irrational fear. The market should be rallying, but it's not.

There is a new fear of collapse and the herd mentality of the market tends to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It may come to the point that in order for the US to be saved, both Bush and Cheney may have to resign to restore confidence.

You can't blame it on Greenspan. You can't blame it on the Treasury Secretary or the head of the SEC. It is George Bush himself and what he represents that is in itself the problem.

Now both President Bush and Vice President Cheney are under investigation for frauds - Bush and his Harken stock fraud and Cheney and his Halliburton scam. There's even a commercial about the fox in the henhouse. It shows a fox running in the field and then it mentions Bush's involvement in Harken Energy, Apache, Zapata and National Heritage Life - all the stock frauds that George Bush Jr. has been involved in. Then it talks about Cheney, and not only Halliburton, but also all the oil companies and all the stock frauds he's been involved in.

The Banana Republicans have taken over the country, and there's no way out. There continues to be a negative reaction to Bush's speech about cleaning up fraud. In fact, a recent poll claims that a majority of people don't believe that George Bush and Company has the political will to clean up corporate fraud because it is so heavily intertwined with Republican interests.

This is Crony Capitalism (so popular in third world countries) American Style. Finally, however, the Bush Cabal is becoming an understandable entity to the people. This is the good that has come out from all those people banging the drum out there and talking about the Bush Cabal. Public opinion polls are finally starting to fall.

And what's Bush's reaction to all this? He continues to leak out information about starting a New War in Iraq - in order to once again divert public attention.

Even mainstream media is having a harder and harder time defending this Bushonian policy of leaking out state secrets in an effort to divert public attention from the economy. This means that all of the plans that they leak out - they can't really use. Why? Because they've made them public knowledge. In other words, they got all the political juice out of them, but as war operations or planning go, they aren't any good anymore.

You're beginning to see people question this behavior even in mainstream media. A lot of the retired military officers that mainstream media uses as commentators, particularly guys like David Hackworth, are saying that the Administration is doing this on purpose - the constant leaking of secret information in an effort to divert public attention from the dire state of the economy.

The House overwhelmingly approved the new Guns in the Cockpit Law. There's a small provision in the bill, which the Office of Homeland Security snuck in the back door, which I consider very sinister.

Part of this bill extends the federal law enforcement shield of immunity to cockpit crewmembers. This is the first time that any law has been passed, which allows the federal government to extend law enforcement immunity to civilians. The Office of Homeland Security will use this as a test case.

In other words, this portion of the bill will almost certainly be legally challenged by somebody. The constitutionality will be challenged and the Supreme Court will naturally agree that it is constitutional. Of course.

Then the Office of Homeland Security will have a law, which has been declared constitutional and will have a legal precedent set to extend the federal law enforcement immunity laws to civilians.

The first people, who will have extended to them the federal law enforcement shield of immunity, will be the members of the Neighborhood Watch Association and members of the new Civilian Defense Force.

The government will want these civilians to have protection from lawsuits which will inevitably arise in the event that they shoot someone. Or accidentally beat someone up. Or whatever.

Imagine how this will expand the power of the Office of Homeland Security -- to extend the federal law enforcement shield of immunity to private groups of citizens who are essentially acting in a paramilitary capacity to support the State. You can imagine how this can be misused.

The government could literally turn them into paralegal paramilitary vigilante groups by extending federal immunity to them. These groups could then act with impunity.

In essence, you would have government- sanctioned right-wing militia groups running around the neighborhood doing what they will - enforcing the authority and the "security" of the State.

The Neighborhood Watch groups would then become a government-controlled militia group. They could then claim that the arming and paramilitarization of the Neighborhood Watch is tucked neatly into the Second Amendment, which gives the government the authority to establish such groups. The government would have the authority to arm them, train them and equip them - all under the guise of the Second Amendment.

The government could literally create a Para militarized force, which exists to enforce the will of the State.

If you as a citizen disagree with them, and they beat you up, or shoot you, or arrest you, or torture you, you have no relief under the law.

You have no recourse to sue them, and you can't sue the government directly because they are only paramilitarized.

When this takes place in Somalia, they're called "militias" or "warlords." It could then be called the Neighborhood Warlord Association instead of Neighborhood Watch.

In Serbia, they were called the "White Eagles." They act on behalf of government. Even in this country, as long as they are listed as paramilitary forces, there is a legal difference.


[snip]


Then there was testimony by Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, O'Neill and Powell on the new proposed Department of Homeland Security. Ashcroft, Rumsfeld said that we may have to ask the American people to give up still more of their rights and liberties. He added that, at the same time that we expect to save money through consolidation, we will temporarily need even more billions of taxpayers' money in order to put ourselves in a position to consolidate, in order to later save the people money?

Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill then admitted that Treasury doesn't have any money left. Dick Armey asked if there was any hope for a stock market recovery, and O'Neill replied, "Oh, I don't think any time soon."

That's why I thought that we should now call the Americans the Neo Sado-Masochists.

In the past, we have called the Canadians the Original Sado-Masochists - as in "Whip Me, Beat Me, Tax Me Some More."

But now Americans have become the Neo Sado-Masochists. Not only do we agree to have more of our civil rights and liberties taken from us, but we also agree to pay for it at the same time.

In other words, we as Americans are paying our own government to take away more of our civil rights and liberties.

At the same time, we support a regime, which through its fiscal imprudence and economic recklessness, continues to cause the value of our 401(k) and IRA accounts to diminish.

Thus, if you support the Bush Administration, you are saying, in effect, "Raise my taxes. Take away my rights. Make the value of my retirement plan go down." We the American People have therefore become the Neo Sado-Masochists.


[snip]


The federal sky marshals have warned the people that any citizen who attempts to moon anyone in an airport will be arrested for violation of State Security.

Mooning has now become a violation of State Security.

Al Martin Raw has been warning people for years not to vote for any more Bushes.

Anyone who has voted for Bushes has seen their IRA and 401(k) accounts wiped out. They have seen their taxes increased. They have seen their rights and liberties diminished.

Anyone who was stupid enough to vote for George Bush is now getting his or her comeuppance. That's why I believe he will be a one-term president. Unless we are totally out of our minds as a nation.

America is the Official Home of the Neo Sado-Masochists.

Everything is going to hell in a hand basket, and even mooning in the USA could get you sent to Guantanamo.

AL MARTIN is America's foremost whistleblower on government fraud and corruption. A retired US Navy Lt. Commander and former officer in the Office of Naval Intelligence, he has testified before Congress (the Kerry Committee and the Alexander Committee) regarding Iran-Contra. Al Martin is the author of "The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran Contra Insider" (2001, National Liberty Press, $19.95; Toll FREE order line: 1-866-317- 1390) He lives at an undisclosed location, since the criminals named in his book have been returned to national power and prominence. His column "Behind the Scenes in the Beltway" is published regularly on Al Martin Raw: Criminal Govt Conspiracy (http://www.almartinraw.com)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: firemind on 2002-07-15 05:38 ]</font>

Don't you see it chatsters? Are there too many right-brain distractions--Moonies, personality profiles, and all--to notice a 4T event when it really happenes? PLease don't mistake the "backroom" concoction of an synthetic polio virus with something as trivial as 9/11. I don't, and now I'm scared as hell.

This reminds me of the the 1930's when Einstein and others recognized that Germnany had closed its uranium mines in Yugoslavia for obvious reasons. Bingo! The Manhattan Project (how ironic!) was off and running. We all know what happened after that.

When the "evil doers" develop a virus as contagious as the measles and as devastating as ebola, there will be no need to worry about global warming or AIDS! I think eventually we will have to become "pod people," like ultra-Mormons, to survive.

Is civilization ready for this?

On 2002-07-15 07:01, Croaker'39 wrote:

Don't you see it chatsters? Are there too many right-brain distractions--Moonies, personality profiles, and all--to notice a 4T event when it really happenes? PLease don't mistake the "backroom" concoction of an synthetic polio virus with something as trivial as 9/11. I don't, and now I'm scared as hell.


Is civilization ready for this?

There should be nothing to worry about as these people are probably scientists of one sort or another and are just going to try an experiment. Can it be done over and over again with the same result? Will it evolve into something else. Read Ms. Mary Shelly's The Modern Prometheus and be at ease.

_________________
Do not be proud of the fact that your grandmother was shocked at
something which you are accustomed to seeing or hearing without being
shocked. It may be that your grandmother was an extremely
lively and vital animal, and that you are a paralytic. G.K. Chesterton

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Virgil K. Saari on 2002-07-15 07:20 ]</font>

Virgil--

I'm relieved by the fact that my grandmother was not a Bovine American. But I'm afraid you may be right about a globalized version of Transylvania.

Marc Lamb commented on the selector thusly:

Pretty loaded questions, if you ask me.
Example:
15. Do you support taxpayer funded vouchers to help parents send their children to the public or private school of their choice?

Wouldn't a more neutral question read:
15. Do you support a method that would allow parents to send their children to the school of their choice?




The reason for specifically asking the question they did is because it highlights the authoritarian/libertarian divide (at least on the 'right'). Fairly the entire right would be in accord with the second question (as would, I suspect, much of the libertarian left), rendering it useless for differentiating between political types.

On 2002-07-13 17:08, justmom wrote:

Kiff, I respect you above all the others. Your gentle rebuke on one of my
more hormonal days, was well founded and gave me a opportunity to
re-evaluate why I had come here in the first place. Even if I don?t agree with
you 100% it?s people like you who will lead us into and through the next
Turning.

Maxine, if you're still lurking, I thank you for your kind remarks. I believe that there is room for everyone here at T4T who wants to debate the issues in the spirit of respect and fair play.

I hope you stop by in the next several months and check us out again. In the meantime, enjoy your family and your life.

Peace,

Kiff

On 2002-07-13 16:23, Marc Lamb wrote:

Is the test accurate?

Pretty loaded questions, if you ask me.
Example:
15. Do you support taxpayer funded vouchers to help parents send their children to the public or private school of their choice?

Wouldn't a more neutral question read:
15. Do you support a method that would allow parents to send their children to the school of their choice?

To which Agent 24601984 replied:

For reasons already debated (that I'm too lazy to go into here), I doubt that vouchers are truly a method that "allow parents to send their children to the school of their choice" - I agree with you that the questions can be pretty loaded but the only loaded words I saw in the original were "taxpayer funded"

H-m-m. I thought those words were the whole point of the question. Reading between the lines, you get: Do you support spending taxpayer (communitarian) dollars on privately (libertarian) selected education options?

Sound like the queston I'd want answered!

House Minority Leader Gephart had some interesting comments on the loss of faith in American institutions this morning on NPR. Did anyone catch them? He was talking about the need to start the process to fix them. Fourth Turning talk?

On 2002-07-15 10:33, DOC 62 wrote:
House Minority Leader Gephart had some interesting comments on the loss of faith in American institutions this morning on NPR. Did anyone catch them? He was talking about the need to start the process to fix them. Fourth Turning talk?

God question Doc. Thanks for putting the thread back on track :P

Here's an article on Moster.com about leadership styles in business. Looks very group oriented and suggests the "lead by example" approach the GIs used a lot. It reads to me like a blend of Civic/Idealist philosophy.

http://editorial.careers.msn.com/articles/fivesteps/

On 2002-07-15 10:33, DOC 62 wrote:

House Minority Leader Gephart had some interesting comments on the loss of faith in American institutions this morning on NPR. Did anyone catch them? He was talking about the need to start the process to fix them. Fourth Turning talk?

<BLOVIATION>
I think it's less a 4T event than the first signs of gonad grafts for the left ... and I use the term 'left' strictly as a relative indicator. When the reality of 'class warfare' is the rich and powerful making war on the rest of us and there's no political response, there isn't much 'left' left!
</BLOVIATION>

Or if you are in the mood for some comic relief, you can try this political quiz instead:

http://www.georgiapolitics.com/quiz2.htm

Funny!
Using those criteria, I fit into none of the 3 groups!
:lol:

_________________
Keep the Spirit Alive,
Eric Meece

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eric A Meece on 2002-07-15 12:16 ]</font>

Oh my God.

I'd try to not let the above article (Al Martin "behind the Scenes In the Beltway....a Stonewall Post) upset me, but I've got MSNBC on and I'm listening to the unraveling of Wall Street.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: cbailey on 2002-07-15 12:19 ]</font>

On 2002-07-15 07:01, Croaker'39 wrote:

Don't you see it chatsters? Are there too many right-brain distractions--Moonies, personality profiles, and all--to notice a 4T event when it really happenes? PLease don't mistake the "backroom" concoction of an synthetic polio virus with something as trivial as 9/11. I don't, and now I'm scared as hell.

This reminds me of the the 1930's when Einstein and others recognized that Germnany had closed its uranium mines in Yugoslavia for obvious reasons. Bingo! The Manhattan Project (how ironic!) was off and running. We all know what happened after that.

When the "evil doers" develop a virus as contagious as the measles and as devastating as ebola, there will be no need to worry about global warming or AIDS! I think eventually we will have to become "pod people," like ultra-Mormons, to survive.

Is civilization ready for this?

Croaker...there's a generational split here regarding possible germ/viral epidemic attacks. Last night I listened to an interview with a woman who's a doctor, and she was claiming that vaccination was all a big scam by the government--that smallpox wasn't that particularly infectious or fatal, same thing for polio. Whatever her political agenda may be (I suspect that when she's among friends the conversation turns to U.N. plots and black helicopters) I was struck by the realization that there is a huge difference in attitude between people who are perhaps early baby boomers and older, and the younger people.
I believe that you're a Silent, so you recall the FEAR (capitalized on purpose) that the words smallpox and polio could inspire in earlier years, especially polio in pre-vaccine days. When I was little and they came out with polio vaccines, I was brought in to the hospital for my shot, and no questions about it from my folks.
HIV is the only epidemic of large proportions which we've suffered since the 1950's and that is basically perceived as an affliction of adults who have chosen risky behaviors.
So...what we have here is a couple of generations of people (Xers and Millies, and later boomers) to whom the idea of an epidemic or plague is something from fiction, an abstraction that may cause some intellectual distress in some people but not the physical, gut-level panic that an older person would feel if the news started to seriously talk about an actual epidemic underway.
BTW, all this plague stuff scares the hell out of me, too.

There was a movie made in 1985, starring Matthew Broderick, titled "1918", about the Flu Epidemic that killed thousands in the U.S. It could give those too young to remember, a feel for the fear.

On 2002-07-14 23:39, justmom wrote:
I would like to come back on 3 conditions:

1. I dont neglect my kids with time spent here.

2. You all will graciously accept my appology for coming out as a ball busting you-know-what. For being hypocritical in my posts in accusing you all of things I am gulity of too.

and
3. You never let me swear again. YUCK, Sorry!

If you agree, in that case I would like to invite you, especially Jenny, to my new forum.

I accept! I may have disagreed with a lot of what you said, but it's always nice to have as many different opinions here as possible

Welcome to the 'cult', justmom :wink:

More on 1918 film, here: http://us.imdb.com/Title?0088645

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 500,000 Americans died in this epidemic (many more than fought in WWI). And it was notorious, in that it claimed not the young and feeble, but the young and strong (between the ages of 20-30, the very heart of the "Lost" generation).

"The reason for specifically asking the question they did is because it highlights the authoritarian/libertarian divide (at least on the 'right'). Fairly the entire right would be in accord with the second question (as would, I suspect, much of the libertarian left), rendering it useless for differentiating between political types." --Mr. Justin


My point, precisely. :smile:

Like Croaker I am in awe of the destructive power of plagues, whether in the wild or synthetically created. My wife's grandfather, a railroad engineer, died of the flu in December 1918 in his early 30s. And my sister came down with Bulbar Polio in June 1954, after one shot of the Salk vaccine (which probably saved her life). In those days the only people opposed to vaccinations were chiropractors and Christian Scientists. And, as an historian, I have studied enough plagues in the past to understand their terrible consequences. For you younger generations, this is nothing to fool around with or to be in denial about.

P.S. Now that we have our own version of the Law of Suspects, can the guillotine be far behind?

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

alan & Dave--

It is no longer impossible to fashion genes in your garage for whatever evil purpose, so long as the knowledge and the resources can be obtained. And now they can. Indeed there will be the ultimate bug and the ulitmate vaccine, one alternating with the other, punctuated by a whole lost of misery in between. It could be more horrific than the Plague. These are possibilities now, clear ones that need some attention. A global nuclear war would be preferred over the ultimate pandemic. There would be survivors, probably, who would wish they were dead.

Oh, sorry for the gloom. Got carried away.

On 2002-07-15 15:35, Marc Lamb wrote:


More on 1918 film, here: http://us.imdb.com/Title?0088645

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 500,000 Americans died in this epidemic (many more than fought in WWI). And it was notorious, in that it claimed not the young and feeble, but the young and strong (between the ages of 20-30, the very heart of the "Lost" generation).

A disaster perhaps, however it did not destroy a generation. France in WW1 did far worse she lost in the range of 2 million men; France's birth rates were very low for the time. Many of these men lost were only sons, for years the image of black dressed widows filled the French population with a sense of dread. The French Lost generation had it's heart torn out.

Russia?s GI generation was very hard hit by the Famines and Purges of the Stalin years and WW2 which killed tens of millions of Russians and other nationalites of the Soviet Union.

Huge areas of Africa right now are experiencing AIDS infection rates of up to 40%, this is affecting people in the prime of their lives and it also is infecting children born of AIDS sufferers.