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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 138







Post#3426 at 07-22-2002 02:24 AM by takascar2 [at North Side, Chi-Town, 1962 joined Jan 2002 #posts 563]
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07-22-2002, 02:24 AM #3426
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I can't follow this thread at all. Are you complaining about something I said?







Post#3427 at 07-22-2002 02:57 AM by Number Two [at joined Jul 2002 #posts 446]
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On 2002-07-22 00:24, takascar2 wrote:
Regarding the USSS notification.

Sorry, but what I read sounded (really, felt) like a threat.

Also, this is a time of war.
This is news to me... when did we declare war again and on whom?
We need to work together as one nation. Dissent is not a luxury that we can afford during a time of war.
There has been domestic dissent in EVERY war that America has fought in... even Jeanette Rankin (sp?) voted against WWII
Also, sacrifice is also called for if we want to be victorious. People should be less worried about "rights" and more concerned about the good of The Nation.
sounds like fascism/'communism' to me :smile:
You liberals harm the cause when you stir up dissent when we need unity. The time for the Culture Wars are over. The conservative side has won because it is (and always has been) the correct side to take.
Even conservative Marc Lamb thinks that we are still in 3T (and therefore the culture wars are not over)
Even though this is true, you still have a right to stir up dissent, but you dont have the right to make threats of the nature that I felt you were making nor to incite other to join you in said conspiracy.
I can see how those who don't know the Stoner could see that as a threat... but next time just ask for an explanation :smile:; TFTers are generally more than happy to explain their reasoning
Bush WON in 2000. Get over it. Every recount shows that he did. I am not sorry that I reported what I felt was a threat.
Only the 'official recounts' (which did not count a number of legally valid votes, which were valid under Florida law ("clear intent of the voter"), a standard which Bush himself upheld in Texas; the full recounts (from the Miami Herald, for example) suggest that there is at least a possibility that more legal votes were cast in Florida for Gore than for Bush
I told the Secret Service guy that although the words could be construed as a person that just doesnt want Bush to be re-elected in 2004, there was something, something that did not feel right and I was sure that they would have the expertise to sort it out.

He thanked me for my report and assured me that they would look in to it. Its in their hands now, where it should be.
I still consider this to be seriously overreacting (here I think the best we can do is agree to disagree)
The President has asked that we all keep an eye out for "suspicious" activity and to report any that we see. I was just doing what I felt was right. If you want to criticize me for that, I'm willing to accept it.

Taka
I wonder if you would have done the same if there were a Democrat/liberal as president... if so then I can see your motivation; if not, it seems more like partisan (3T-style!) bickering







Post#3428 at 07-22-2002 06:23 AM by Chicken Little [at western NC joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,211]
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On 2002-07-22 00:24, takascar2 wrote:
Regarding the USSS notification.

Sorry, but what I read sounded (really, felt) like a threat.

Also, this is a time of war. We need to work together as one nation. Dissent is not a luxury that we can afford during a time of war.

Also, sacrifice is also called for if we want to be victorious. People should be less worried about "rights" and more concerned about the good of The Nation.

You liberals harm the cause when you stir up dissent when we need unity. The time for the Culture Wars are over. The conservative side has won because it is (and always has been) the correct side to take.

Even though this is true, you still have a right to stir up dissent, but you dont have the right to make threats of the nature that I felt you were making nor to incite other to join you in said conspiracy.

Bush WON in 2000. Get over it. Every recount shows that he did. I am not sorry that I reported what I felt was a threat.

I told the Secret Service guy that although the words could be construed as a person that just doesnt want Bush to be re-elected in 2004, there was something, something that did not feel right and I was sure that they would have the expertise to sort it out.

He thanked me for my report and assured me that they would look in to it. Its in their hands now, where it should be.

The President has asked that we all keep an eye out for "suspicious" activity and to report any that we see. I was just doing what I felt was right. If you want to criticize me for that, I'm willing to accept it.

Taka
Go take your Prozac and shut the hell up.







Post#3429 at 07-22-2002 07:13 AM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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Here is one of Bush Sr.'s Iran-Contra insiders painting an incredibly grim picture of what we might expect economically. Note that he anticipates the outright economic collapse of the US. He even tosses in the possibility that Bush and Cheney might eventually resign under pressure from foreign governments. Surely things will not deteriorate to that point but I would think that we hit 4T territory long before we get there.


http://www.almartinraw.com/column64.html

(For education and discussion purposes only)


BEHIND THE SCENES IN THE BELTWAY
by Al Martin

No Confidence; Bush Cabal Drives US to the Brink of Collapse



(July 22) Another week has passed, as we inch ever closer to the economic collapse of the United States. During this week we have reached several new important milestones. Another $750 billion of market capitalization has been lost, thus bringing the total loss in market capitalization (during the eighteen months of the George Bush II Regime) to $4.75 trillion.

In an effort to stave off an economic collapse of its own creation, the Bush Administration desperately continues to bang the drum on the so-called positive economic numbers. The gross domestic product of the United States is expected to grow between 3- 1/2 and 3-3/4 % for the entire year. Corporate profits are expected to pick up during the second half of this year. Yet these numbers continue to be ignored by the investing public. The reason it is being ignored is because the Bush Administration, with its incessant, waste, fraud, abuse, graft, corruption and malfeasance, isn't fooling anybody anymore.

For instance, we must remember that most of the government economic statistics that are released by various federal agencies are in fact all lies. That's why these numbers are endlessly revised after they are issued. In some cases, revisions are made up to six months later.

The way the government puts together these statistics is fundamentally flawed. When the Clinton Administration attempted to make a general overhaul of the way government agencies compiled statistics and data, the Republicans fought them tooth and nail. They knew that if the monthly government statistics were going to tell the truth, it would paint a very dire picture.

The White House has been putting on Republican market pundits on CNBC and FNN, virtually hour after hour, to try to pump up investor confidence. They say that the Dow Jones industrial average at its current levels has discounted all of the accounting scandals and Republican connected fraud yet to come.

Isn't it odd that the Bush Administration which professes to know nothing about this inherent accounting fraud and fraud connected to itself says that in six months time this will all be weeded out?

But if they don't know anything about it, how can they give a time frame?

The reason why is because they already know which corporations have accounting problems and which corporations have committed Republican-connected fraud which hasn't been revealed yet.

That's why they can give a time frame. That in itself implies that the White House must be controlling the agenda. They must be controlling the rate and pace of discovery of these frauds. They couldn't give a time frame otherwise.

In other words, if there are two hundred more major frauds to be revealed, then maybe the White House has a plan that will gradually reveal the frauds over six months time, so the market doesn't crash right away.

The market will then have time to absorb the bad news.

As we have discussed before, the next two shoes to drop (that will hit the capital marketplaces like a bombshell and dampen investor enthusiasm even further) is the corporate pension fraud. There is an aggregate of probably some number in the trillions of dollars that American corporations owe their own pension funds.

This was recently revealed when General Motors made the admission that it has a $3.6 billion deficit in its fixed pension fund. Ford, Chrysler, and General Electric-all have enormous multi-billion fixed deficits. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.

In the future, any corporations that have any shortfalls in their pension plans are going to have to make provisions to use corporate profits to replenish those funds.

The reason those pension frauds were allowed to exist is that both during the Reagan Bush I Regime, and now the Bush II Regime, they consistently weakened regulatory statutes regarding corporate pension funds. They gave corporations more leeway and more time to replenish the money. More tax write-off, more depreciation and so on. It has been the Bush Cabal, which has created this corporate pension problem. That's the first show to drop next.

The next one (which nobody is talking about, which Al Martin Raw.com is now revealing) is that this market slide and the corporate collapses of Enron, WorldCom, and Global Crossings etc. have created thus far (and the process isn't completed yet) $500 billion in bad loans for American banks.

Very little, if any, of this money will be recovered. The banks will simply have to write the money off. This is at a time when personal bankruptcies are at all time highs and continue to increase. This is a time when banks are already writing down record amounts of consumer debt. Now they're going to get hit with a double whammy of this newly created corporate bad debt.

Nobody has talked about what the impact of this to the marketplace and to our economy is going to be. Therefore, this is why the market continues to decline -- despite some seemingly bright spots.

(Parenthetically speaking, would Al Martin Raw readers be interested in a financial newsletter, or a course on what the so-called Smart Money Crowd is doing - shorting the market? Please email your response to virtualagency@yahoo.com)

You see all these Republican Cabalists -- George Bush, Dick Cheney and Jack Welch, the retired chairman of General Electric (who is now being investigated for problems at GE Capital Credit, overstating profits, etc) standing up on the podium telling us to keep waving the American flag, and don't worry about your IRA statements. You just keep on buying stock.

At the same time, these people (the Smart Money) are shorting the market and converting their trading profits into gold. That bespeaks volumes. It's one thing to tell the American people to go out and keep buying, while the Bush Cabalists are being short. Of course, there is nothing wrong with that. But it is very onerous when they start converting their profits into gold and start getting out of dollars.

The Smart Money has been shorting the market, converting their trading profits to gold through offshore gold accounts, principally held at the LME or in Zurich. There is a whole vast array of offshore accounts. People tend to think that offshore accounts are just used to hold money, for US dollars or whatever. But you can convert that to any form of currency, Euro-dollars at LIBOR rate (London Interbank Offshore Rate) or whatever. Or you can put your currency in offshore bullion accounts, where you can buy and hold bullion through a Swiss bank in an offshore account.

And how fast is the market being brought down? There are two schools of thought about that. Do you bring it down fast and hard and try to convince the American people that this is the bottom and now it's time to buy again? Or do you bring it down gradually?

Obviously you have to do it gradually. Since so much investor confidence has been lost, if the Bush Administration brought the market down fast and hard and said here's the bottom, nobody's going to believe them.

Therefore what you do (as the Bush Administration has done) is you put all your economic pundits on television and you resort to the classic strategy of letting the market drop slowly. Then you keep telling the American people to just keep putting your money into your IRA and 401(k) plan, and remember that every month as the market drops, you're averaging down. You're getting the benefit of being able to buy stocks at ever- cheaper prices. Then when the market does turn around, you'll be in the black again even more quickly.

That is the classic strategy. And the funny thing is that polls indicate that 80% of the American people swallow that stupid line. What they don't understand (these classically oriented investors with this idea of averaging down which has always been popular in this country -- and you can't expect them to understand because they're not being told) is that we have entered a whole new environment, that everything is falling apart, and that it isn't going to come back. And that's what I want the people to understand.

The reason that the market hasn't crashed already (and you hear this all the time; you hear it every hour on the hour on CNBC et al) is because there has not been a lot of retail selling - all through this decline. The people are so conditioned by the Bush Cabal into the concept of holding stocks to the bitter end -- and continuing to buy them all the way down.

It is laughable, but the Bush Administration in concert with their allies in the securities industry, the mutual fund industry and so on, has gotten the people snowed into thinking this. In the past this strategy has always worked.

When you've come into a bear market, you've averaged down. Then when the market turns around you've made money. But this time, what the people don't understand is that the fundamentals have all changed. And what do we mean when we say that? It's simple. Everything is falling apart. And this time it ain't coming back.

Why do you think the Smart Republican Money IS shorting the market and IS using that money to buy gold?

Why do you think records indicate that Smart Republicans have even begun selling their private homes-if they're worth two to five million dollars in this country? They're gradually and quietly moving everything out of the United States and putting everything into gold and getting themselves in the Cayman Islands where they can be completely isolated from the rest of the events in the world.

There are even whispers in Washington that the administration has secretly told the Treasury Department to begin to prepare for the Emergency Economic Collapse Protocols. This would entail a partial repudiation of US debt. After that, everything would then effectively collapse. This has always been a state secret unbeknownst to most people.

The United States holds approximately the same amount of gold bullion (and it tinkers very little with that amount) -- eleven billion ounces of gold. When you add that eleven billion of ounces which it has on hand and about a billion ounces of gold, which could be recovered from industrial uses, the United States would be able to print a limited series of US currency as gold-backed notes. This currency would circulate only in the United States. It would not circulate anywhere else. It would be an internal currency only. It would be meant to keep the nation operating in a post-economic collapse environment.

In other words, you would still need currency, a form of currency which people still had faith in, because faith in all Federal Reserve notes would be gone. That would be history. They wouldn't be worth anything.

This is part of the actual protocol. The United States would instantly demonetize US banknotes held outside of the United States, money held in physical form. The Treasury Department would certify these banknotes as demonetized and no longer of any value. As a matter of fact, at that time, they become even illegal to possess.

What would happen in an emergency collapse situation? The United States would simply demonetize all currency outside the United States - which is about two-thirds of all US currency outstanding. It is used in many third world nations as the currency of last resort.

We could effectively demonetize the currency without a lot of repercussions. Certainly -- in a post-collapse environment, where are the repercussions going to come from?

The administration may already be looking at post-collapse protocols. The first historical precedent would be the events of 1862, when the US Government first began issuing a "national" currency. There was an enormous debate at the time.

Lincoln, Seward and Chase (then Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase) had an interesting debate about it. Chase, the former Senator from Ohio, thought that the American people would actually accept the use of a non- species-backed national note - especially if you hit them from the angle of "patriotism."

If they said that we are entering into a War with the South, the North will need all of its gold reserves in order to fight this war because war's expensive and it drains gold. And therefore we are going to have to be patriotic, and we are going to need to use a new national currency, not as a substitution, but to augment the privately issued banknotes then in circulation.

It wasn't until 1865 that the US Government ordered all private banknotes withdrawn from circulation and demonetized. That was the first precedent for the acceptance of a de facto fiat-based currency.

The reverse of that came in 1933 when the United States was right on the edge of collapse, and Roosevelt instituted what Republicans called "the Raw Deal," (not to be confused with the "New Deal") when he forcibly recalled all gold coins from circulation.

Roosevelt duped the American people by a careful play on words that it was illegal to hold gold, when in fact it wasn't, he just made the people think it was.

The Roosevelt Administration also had a contingency plan that had the United States collapsed they would have had to go back to species.

After all, this will have been the first time that the thirty-somethings have been fleeced. The difference now is that Americans who have invested heavily in the stock market are not being fleeced anymore; they are being skinned. They are being boiled in oil.

There is no more shearing of the sheep. The wool is gone, and now it's time for the skinning.

This is directly related to the Wall Street Journal article about the growing number of people, who are becoming savvier and are beginning to short the market and to trade from the short side. There is a growing increase in retail short selling. This is a whole new phenomenon.

Short selling was always something that the American people were always told to stay away from. That's for professionals. That's for people who know what they're doing. The reason the government and its allies in the brokerage industry always told the American people that is they didn't want to let the cat out of the bag.

They wanted to reserve the big short selling for themselves. After all, most Republican Big Money was built on the short side. If you let all the peons into it, then you'd create an enormous amount of volatility.

If you're going to have everybody shorting, you have to have somebody on the other side of the market buying. The other side of the market has traditionally been the American People. It is the American People who always go long. In other words, buy stocks and stay in there. They are the ones who provide the liquidity for the marketplace, so the Smart Republican Money can always be on the other side.

After all, George Bush didn't call the American People "fodder units" for nothing. This is called "cracking the code" of the Bush Cabalists. When you see "OFU", what did that mean? It took a while, but we finally figured it out - "One Fodder Unit."

The latest development is that foreign leaders are quietly pressuring Bush and Cheney both to resign -- as a first step in restoring market confidence. Dennis Hastert has already publicly stated that he would recuse himself from the constitutional succession. And who could the next "president" be? It could be Colin Powell. People still have confidence in him. And it would go directly in the "Five Days in May" scenario.

Powell has already hinted in the past that although he did not seek the presidency, if he were to become president, he would follow the Clintonian policies of fiscal restraint.

Of course, this scenario is very unlikely, but it does make sense for them to resign as a first step in restoring market confidence. If Powell did ascend to the presidency, it would restore market confidence. People would think that since the Bush Cabal and the Bush- Cheney Republican oil-swindling crowd were out, and Colin Powell was in, who is really a Republican in name only, things would get better.

Of course the Bush Cabal would let everything collapse before they would resign. Collapse wouldn't affect George Bush or Dick Cheney. They'll still be having their filet mignon and lobster tail lunch the next day - even if everything collapsed.

If they did resign, it would be a good first step in restoring market confidence. Maybe it's time for a new campaign to start. You could call it ABB - Anybody But Bush.

(By the way, while the American people are seeing the value of their 401(k)/IRA accounts dropping at the rate of 5% a month, Congress has voted itself another $5000 pay raise for the fourth straight year (an aggregate increase of $20,000 in four years.) Just a little closing comment to brighten up the day of the average American investor?)

AL MARTIN is America's foremost whistleblower on government fraud and corruption. A retired US Navy Lt. Commander and former officer in the Office of Naval Intelligence, he has testified before Congress (the Kerry Committee and the Alexander Committee) regarding Iran-Contra. Al Martin is the author of "The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran Contra Insider" (2001, National Liberty Press, $19.95; Toll FREE order line: 1-866-317- 1390) He lives at an undisclosed location, since the criminals named in his book have been returned to national power and prominence. His column "Behind the Scenes in the Beltway" is published regularly on Al Martin Raw: Criminal Govt Conspiracy (http://www.almartinraw.com)








Post#3430 at 07-22-2002 09:20 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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The following is a lesson in preparing and presenting a strawman argument, by Marc Lamb:


First, the set-up ...


Treason is probably the most difficult crime in which to gain a conviction in a U.S. court of law. Think about it, folks: The very authors of the Constitution had been, at one time, guilty of this crime. They well understood the nature of this crime, and the critical relationship it has in defining the role of limited government over concentrated, centralized authority (ie., Monarchy).


Hence the First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Now in case you missed it, Marc has made an assertion that treason and the first amendment are linked.


Next, he ties it to his cause du jour: <u>Campaign Finanace Reform</u>:


That very Amendment makes treason nearly lawful, itself. But it is the First Amendment that was assaulted by Congress when they passed Campaign Finance Reform.

oThe strawman is now complete. Please note, the argument up to this point has been a series of uncotroversial and unsupported assertions, a mandatory requirment for any strawman. Marc now continues with the final stage - the kill!


But as addressed by nearly every liberal posting in these threads, the issue isn't about limiting free speech, but rather limiting money in elections. They place the two issues upon the scales... money trumps the First Amendment. Money keeps the little guy out of the process, they say. So if we have to limit the rich guy's First Amendment rights, so be it! We're for the little guy.

Makes em' feel real good, the liberals, to think like this...

But where's the clause in the Constitution that makes any such distinction between rich and poor? Was that something that the authors forgot to put in? How about the smart and the stupid? The ambitious and the lazy?

The point now made, Marc completes the move with a salt-in-the-wound reference to evil personified.


How come liberals can so easily ditch the First Amendment, the very source of our vitality as a nation, the very epitome of everything Osama bin Laden--and the rest of the world, that hate us--are not, in order to get one over the rich guy?

I just don't understand this.

Never mind that the entire argument fails to hold together with anything approaching enough coherency to permit rebuttal. But if you agree that treason = restriction of free speach = campaign spending restrictions = Osama bin Laden, you have no problem with any of this.

_________________
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together :wink:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David '47 on 2002-07-22 10:42 ]</font>







Post#3431 at 07-22-2002 09:49 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Along with much else I've chosen to ignore, Marc Lamb wrote:

... How's does awarding $3,000,000,000,000 to a tobacco addict sound? Is this your idea of the slavery of "one" to the "many" or vice versa? Is this Corporatism run amuck, or what?

First, I've never heard of a $3trillion award for anything, but allowing that it may occur, I'll merely smile and wait for the other shoe to drop.


Any amount can be awarded, but I'll wait to see what actually gets paid. Experience tells me that it's always better to pack the higher courts :grin:

_________________
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together :wink:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David '47 on 2002-07-22 10:43 ]</font>







Post#3432 at 07-22-2002 09:52 AM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
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I guess my bizzare attempt to get back on topic went unnoticed (above). Just more of this Secret Service warning discussion that should have wrapped up a few posts ago, and political rhetoric that should go in the "Politics and Economics" posts.







Post#3433 at 07-22-2002 10:05 AM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-07-22 07:52, AlexMnWi wrote:

I guess my bizzare attempt to get back on topic went unnoticed (above). Just more of this Secret Service warning discussion that should have wrapped up a few posts ago, and political rhetoric that should go in the "Politics and Economics" posts.
Don't be a pill.








Post#3434 at 07-22-2002 10:14 AM by monoghan [at Ohio joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,189]
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I just reread Only Yesterday. The statistic that jumped out was how economic activity dropped dramatically, and unemployment rose, after the October 1929 stock market crash. Today, so far, the economy is going OK but we have a stock market crash. The journalists who claim that the US economy is crashing because the Dow is down really demonstrate that they were journalism majors in college.

Japan's stock market has dropped for years but there are no breadlines. Same could happen here.

Back to Only Yesterday. I reread it to get a flavor of how Hoover handled the crash compared to the Bush administration. Hoover really lost credibility when he promised in early 1930 that unemployment would be ended "in 60 days". No such crazy promised so far (which is on par with "Read my lips") and no new millions of unemployed to remind of the broken promise.

I don't know why Bush keeps playing by Marquis of Queensbury rules and does not call this the "Clinton Bubble". The poll data is there to support it.

So from here it looks like the 2000 was the best thing that could have happened to the Democrats. Had Gore won, he clearly would have had to play the role of Hoover and taken the blame. As it is now, the Democrats have a chance to pin it on Bush (and the media is playing according to that playbook).







Post#3435 at 07-22-2002 10:15 AM by jds1958xg [at joined Jan 2002 #posts 1,002]
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On 2002-07-21 23:53, AlexMnWi wrote:
In some strangely bizarre, unheard of attempt to get back on topic, I am offering this post. Has anyone noticed the market slide this summer, especially over the last two weeks? The market was well above 9,000 a few weeks ago; now it is barely above 8,000. This is a difference over a couple of weeks of over 1,000. 1,000 is 10% of 10,000, so it is over 10% of 9,000. The 1987 crash was something around an 11% fall. I think that we have in fact had a stock market crash; it is just not a crash in the sense that it has happened (sic?) over a couple of weeks. And in the weeks preceding both of the previous major crashes, the market had been severly sliding for a little while. So next week worries me. Anyway, something like this is very 4T. Looking at some of the headlines, these seem very 4T as well. Here are some of them:
"WorldCom in Largest-Ever U.S. Bankruptcy"
"Ridge: Terror threat may force government to use military for domestic law enforcement"
"Turkey warns U.S. of lengthy Iraq war"
"Review: U.S. air strategy flawed, killed hundreds of innocent Afghan civilians"

Also, I have noticed that after looking at the dates at this website, and assuming that 9/11 was the catalyst after some convincing posts, 2002 would resemble 1930. And in many ways it does, seeing as how people tried to get back to normal.

So here now, after having been through 9/11, we are seeing war-related headlines all over, a very large stock market slump, and virtually no inflation (0.1% Last Month). In fact, some areas recieved deflation, a characteristic of the last great depression. If you ask me, this is all very, very 4T.
Not quite, Alex. I certainly noticed your post, which I quoted above, and find that I agree with your conclusion. Already, I have increasingly felt ever since April that the system (the Silent Generation?) has been waging an increasingly desperate campaign to stave off the ever-increasing signs that this is indeed the 4T. In fact, in reference to the stock market's behavior these last two weeks, I've reread S&H's words regarding 'The Great Devaluation' in T4T, and can't help if this may be the beginning of said event. And this is only the latest sign that the 4T is already in progress. All we can say now is 'stay tuned'.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jds1958xg on 2002-07-22 08:21 ]</font>







Post#3436 at 07-22-2002 10:21 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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On 2002-07-21 23:53, AlexMnWi wrote:
In some strangely bizarre, unheard of attempt to get back on topic, I am offering this post. Has anyone noticed the market slide this summer, especially over the last two weeks?

(snip)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AlexMnWi on 2002-07-21 23:55 ]</font>
The stock market slide has been discussed in other threads, most notably the financial crisis one. So yes, we've certainly noticed!







Post#3437 at 07-22-2002 11:05 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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"Never mind that the entire argument fails to hiold together with anything approaching enough coherency to permit rebuttal. But if you agree that treason = restriction of free speach = campaign spending restrictions = Osama bin Laden, you have no problem with any of this."

Response:
1. Thanks for reposting my brilliant argument. :smile:

2. The right to speak out against the government would surely be abridged were it not for the First Amendment. This would be consider treason.

3. Campaign Finance Reform restricts freedom of speech by making it illegal to speak out against imcumbent government officials within sixty days of an election.

4. As far as the jury awards go, you completely missed the point of my tyranny of one argument.

5. Which is not surprising, Dave. :smile:




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2002-07-22 09:11 ]</font>







Post#3438 at 07-22-2002 11:51 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Stonewall argued:


It was in no way necessary for the taxpayers to subsidize industry ...

to which Brian Rush responded:


It may not have been one hundred percent necessary, but it certainly helped and accelerated the transition. We might be industrialized now without it, but we certainly would not have progressed as far as we have.

I have to disagree with both of you, though less with Brian than you, Stonewall. We could NEVER have fully indutrialized without the active collaboration of government. Only governement has the power of eminent domain, which is absolutely essential to creating railroads, networks of highways, and electric power distribution systems. Absent those, you have a pre-industrialized cottage industry economy at most.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#3439 at 07-22-2002 12:21 PM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
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07-22-2002, 12:21 PM #3439
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On 2002-07-22 08:15, jds1958xg wrote:
On 2002-07-21 23:53, AlexMnWi wrote:
In some strangely bizarre, unheard of attempt to get back on topic, I am offering this post. Has anyone noticed the market slide this summer, especially over the last two weeks? The market was well above 9,000 a few weeks ago; now it is barely above 8,000. This is a difference over a couple of weeks of over 1,000. 1,000 is 10% of 10,000, so it is over 10% of 9,000. The 1987 crash was something around an 11% fall. I think that we have in fact had a stock market crash; it is just not a crash in the sense that it has happened (sic?) over a couple of weeks. And in the weeks preceding both of the previous major crashes, the market had been severly sliding for a little while. So next week worries me. Anyway, something like this is very 4T. Looking at some of the headlines, these seem very 4T as well. Here are some of them:
"WorldCom in Largest-Ever U.S. Bankruptcy"
"Ridge: Terror threat may force government to use military for domestic law enforcement"
"Turkey warns U.S. of lengthy Iraq war"
"Review: U.S. air strategy flawed, killed hundreds of innocent Afghan civilians"

Also, I have noticed that after looking at the dates at this website, and assuming that 9/11 was the catalyst after some convincing posts, 2002 would resemble 1930. And in many ways it does, seeing as how people tried to get back to normal.

So here now, after having been through 9/11, we are seeing war-related headlines all over, a very large stock market slump, and virtually no inflation (0.1% Last Month). In fact, some areas recieved deflation, a characteristic of the last great depression. If you ask me, this is all very, very 4T.
Not quite, Alex. I certainly noticed your post, which I quoted above, and find that I agree with your conclusion. Already, I have increasingly felt ever since April that the system (the Silent Generation?) has been waging an increasingly desperate campaign to stave off the ever-increasing signs that this is indeed the 4T. In fact, in reference to the stock market's behavior these last two weeks, I've reread S&H's words regarding 'The Great Devaluation' in T4T, and can't help if this may be the beginning of said event. And this is only the latest sign that the 4T is already in progress. All we can say now is 'stay tuned'.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jds1958xg on 2002-07-22 08:21 ]</font>
Did the progressives have any role during 1930? I have heard something about Progressives on the Supreme Court during the 1930's slowing things down a bit... is the Silent generation doing some of the same?

Also, how much of the Supreme Court is silent today? Is it 8 Silents and a boomer?







Post#3440 at 07-22-2002 12:30 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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07-22-2002, 12:30 PM #3440
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On 2002-07-22 04:23, Heliotrope wrote:
On 2002-07-22 00:24, takascar2 wrote:

<DRIVEL DELETED>
Go take your Prozac and shut the hell up.

The best recommendation on this issue so far!
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#3441 at 07-22-2002 12:31 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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07-22-2002, 12:31 PM #3441
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<MY DRIVEL DELETED>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David '47 on 2002-07-22 10:49 ]</font>







Post#3442 at 07-22-2002 01:32 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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07-22-2002, 01:32 PM #3442
Guest

Sign of a 3T or 4T? This article contests one indicator of change has not happened,
the expected mini-baby boom after Sep 11th.

http://msnbc.com/news/782053.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1#BODY







Post#3443 at 07-22-2002 02:43 PM by posy [at Brandon, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 62]
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07-22-2002, 02:43 PM #3443
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webmaster:"Please let me know if anyone hears from the Secret Service about this farce. I would hope the Secret Service has better things to do with their time, but if there is an actual investigation, I need to keep Bill and Neil informed"

posy: Now this is a hoot! After all the (it seems like years) that I have been coming to this site, it's the last one I would have imagined the secret service would come after. For one thing it, it used to be kind of... uh... obscure, obtuse,and academic. Long Long Long historical posts which could be interesting if you had about a month to read them.
After 911 things sort of perked up. New posters, more chatty and inane. My kinda place. However, I began to notice more fights flaring up. Not sure if it is because of the new posters or because people's fuses are getting shorter.
But as someone wrote earlier, apparently the 3T gets worse before it gets 4T. I thought nothing could get worse than the Clinton witch hunts... but at least then the right wingers were only after him. Now it looks like they are after us!! And they are getting their internal secret police set up for it.
Mamamia! And I was worried about the arabs!
PS I would post with my real name, but I don't think the secret police needs that to find me.







Post#3444 at 07-22-2002 02:50 PM by posy [at Brandon, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 62]
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"Serious, Ms. Susan? I don't take anyone very serious that posts using a unimagiative name they just made up (Like Chet from Weird Science ). "
____________________________________

You know things are getting grim when they start picking on your name. (I thought he called himself lamb cause was sweet and cuddly)







Post#3445 at 07-22-2002 03:00 PM by posy [at Brandon, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 62]
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"You liberals harm the cause when you stir up dissent when we need unity. The time for the Culture Wars are over. The conservative side has won because it is (and always has been) the correct side to take."

You right wing nuts are so funny. (But Heliotrope was wrong ... prozac won't do it for you. Try resperidol.







Post#3446 at 07-22-2002 03:02 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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07-22-2002, 03:02 PM #3446
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On 2002-07-22 10:21, AlexMnWi wrote:
Also, how much of the Supreme Court is silent today? Is it 8 Silents and a boomer?
From http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...iescurrent.pdf are these statistics:

Chief Justice Rehnquist 10/1/24
Justice Stevens 4/20/20

Justice O'Connor 3/26/30
Justice Ginsberg 3/15/33
Justice Scalia 3/11/36
Justice Kennedy 3/23/36
Justice Breyer 8/15/38
Justice Souter 11/17/39

Justice Thomas 6/23/48

Two GIs (both WWII vets), six Silents, and one Boomer.


_________________
Living begins not on the day you are born
but on the day you recognize your consciousness -- Prem Rawat

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jenny Genser on 2002-07-22 13:03 ]</font>







Post#3447 at 07-22-2002 03:13 PM by posy [at Brandon, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 62]
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David post:

"On 2002-07-22 04:23, Heliotrope wrote:
Quote: takascar2 wrote:

<DRIVEL DELETED>
_____________________

Go take your Prozac and shut the hell up.
_____________________________

The best recommendation on this issue so far!
__________________________

posy: this is the best post so far!







Post#3448 at 07-22-2002 03:23 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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07-22-2002, 03:23 PM #3448
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"Two GIs (both WWII vets), six Silents, and one Boomer."

One Boomer, eh? Since most are neo-Nazi fascists, and the fact that events trump generational governence anyway, why bother posting this kind of nonsense?









Post#3449 at 07-22-2002 04:05 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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On 2002-07-22 13:23, Marc Lamb wrote:


"Two GIs (both WWII vets), six Silents, and one Boomer."

One Boomer, eh? Since most are neo-Nazi fascists, and the fact that events trump generational governence anyway, why bother posting this kind of nonsense?



Good point! On to the next witch burning.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#3450 at 07-22-2002 04:30 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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07-22-2002, 04:30 PM #3450
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I not at all sure why folks bother to post anything about generations at this website. It's all worthless garbage. What really counts is whether the liberals are in charge or not. If their not, the world's going to hell very fast. If they are...


<FONT SIZE="+3"><center>We're saved!</FONT></center>




Screw this generations stuff. :smile:


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