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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 147







Post#3651 at 08-07-2002 05:11 PM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
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On 2002-08-07 13:53, JustinLong wrote:
Here's something that has generations written all over it...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,436495,00.asp

Dvorak @ Pc Magazine



August 5, 2002

Where are the Summer Jobs?

By John C. Dvorak


Total posts: 76




Where are all the jobs that technology promised? And exactly why are there so many kids without summer jobs of any sort? It's out of control.

ADVERTISEMENT



Some of this may have to do with the economy in general, but I blame the loss of the manufacturing base. What happens to manufacturing has effects

beyond manufacturing itself. There are social implications. This was brought to my attention last week as I was roaming around the quaint Victorian town of Port Townsend, Washington. Everywhere I looked, there were groups of teenagers hanging out with apparently nothing better to do than smoke and chat with each other. Normally, you'd see a few kids during the summer, but it looked like the town was taken over by them. Many were sitting on the sidewalk making the place look like a country town in the deep South during the 1930s. Port Townsend is not a manufacturing town, but seeing what was happening there made me look around more. Everywhere I go, I see an excessive number of kids with absolutely nothing to do. A few exhibitionist kids seem to relish making out in public, but the rest just smoke and chat.

So where are all these jobs that the technology revolution was supposed to create? Over the years we were constantly told that for every X number of jobs that technology eliminated it would create X plus Y jobs. It seems to me that Y turned out to be a negative number.

The only summer jobs available to students nowadays seem to be in fast food restaurants at minimum wage or in retail at minimum wage. And retailers seem to be suffering, so there is little opportunity there. Office jobs for students are virtually nonexistent and most kids have to take internships?and internship is the biggest scam in the history of business. "Intern" usually means someone who gets coffee.

I hate to date myself, but when I was in high school I had no trouble finding a union job in a factory. The big auto plants run by companies like Ford and GM had programs to hire students for the summer. I worked variously at International Harvester, Trailmobile, Kaiser Aluminum, and elsewhere. I was paid a good wage and received good benefits. (Curiously, in all those companies I always gravitated toward the job of inspector. Once a critic, always a critic, no?)

Anyway, it was easy to finance college just working three months a year. Now you have to work part-time all year round and you still can't afford school. Does anyone see a problem here?

And if things weren't bad enough for the young people of America, I sense an anti-youth movement. An interesting article got my attention. Apparently Silicon Valley and the entrepreneurs have all changed their opinions about who to hire. They now prefer the "gray-hairs." This is probably because the old-timers, after being locked out of work for so long, will work cheaply now. But among the rationalizations, you find a subtle contempt for the younger employee. The young CEO's are now being blamed for the dot-com disaster despite the fact that all they did was what they were told to do by the "experts" in the investment community. It seems to me that this sudden anti-youth movement must have some effect on the student job market too.

Whatever the case, you get an overwhelming feeling that today's high-tech managers lack any sense of social responsibility. This is reflected in the ridiculous salaries they give themselves combined with the cavalier attitude they have toward workers. Very few companies are even attempting work-sharing or other techniques to keep people employed during the downturn. This is creating a deep resentment toward business in this country, and the resentment is worsening. My recent online columns on this topic, from the piece trashing MBA's to the China Syndrome column of last week, are relevant here. I've never seen as much piling on from obviously smart and savvy readers as I've seen from reactions to these recent columns.

stwb: I couldn't agree more, regarding the lack of a social conscious. Most companies, and not just the tech sector, have no regard for society, their employees, their global or local communities. Their only loyalty is to Wall Street and their investors, and most have a very short focus.

view full post



Methuss: Don't forget
that many, if not most, of these kids you are seeing hanging out wouldn't take a manufacturing job if offered to them. There is a definate contempt that most high-school kids have these days toward manual labor.

view full post



lgbowman: I am a
small employer with summer jobs to offer. Many of the kids that apply are not interested in removing their piercings or pulling up their pants.

view full post


Once a moniker is put on a profession, it's hard to remove. People think all politicians are crooks, for example. And lawyers have managed to get their profession derided and stereotyped with
jokes. But the CEOs have been unscathed. It's always been kind of cool to be a CEO. What happens if they are all stereotyped as unethical, crooked book-cookers who care about nobody but themselves? How does an executive walk away from a dead company with $750 million in his pocket? I'd recommend a rescreening of the rentable TV Movie Barbarians at the Gate in this new climate, and see what you think.

All I know is that I'm seeing a lot of kids who don't even try to get summer jobs, because there are no jobs to be had. These kids have lost hope. So they smoke and hang out. Tell me what you're seeing. Is there a solution to this dilemma? I don't think so.
Have they taken into account that some overprotective/paranoid parents (especially Xers like my mom) won't let their kids get jobs? And that they just need to unwind in the summer? A bunch of kids at my school don't have jobs either, and they don't stand on the corner and smoke and make out. Nor are they filled with piercings. What a nice, wonderful, bigoted article.
1987 INTP







Post#3652 at 08-07-2002 06:00 PM by alias [at joined Jul 2002 #posts 82]
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Looks like there may be a trend toward decriminalization of marijuana. Sign of 4T?

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...513814476.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/loca...06p-8168c.html








Post#3653 at 08-07-2002 06:25 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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This is a test. Other posters have told me that they are having trouble posting, so i am trying one myself to see if it shows up on this thread!







Post#3654 at 08-07-2002 06:27 PM by Chicken Little [at western NC joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,211]
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I can't log on. Kevin said he couldn't either but was still able to post...let me try this and see if it works.








Post#3655 at 08-07-2002 07:15 PM by Rain Man [at Bendigo, Australia joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,303]
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On 2002-08-07 16:00, alias wrote:
Looks like there may be a trend toward decriminalization of marijuana. Sign of 4T?
Frankly I see the opposite happening in the 4T, Drug users will get punished very severely indeed. I am an ultra-puritan when it comes to drugs, I would have caffeine, tobacco and alcohol banned as well as illicit drugs. More so I practice what I preacg.







Post#3656 at 08-07-2002 07:22 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-08-07 17:15, Tristan Jones wrote:

I would have caffeine, tobacco and alcohol banned as well as illicit drugs.
Why?








Post#3657 at 08-07-2002 07:23 PM by Rain Man [at Bendigo, Australia joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,303]
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Well Pat Robertson seems to think the end of time itself is very near now a 4T Sign?

Dear Friends and Co-Laborers,

Recently I was a guest on a well-known evening talk show. One of the hosts asked me,

?Are we near the apocalypse?
What signs are we to look for??

I believe millions of people are asking the same question, ?What does the future hold for me and my family? Are we in the time of the end of the age??

As the world is faced with a vicious war of terrorism?as Israel seems opposed by every nation on the face of the earth except the United States?as financial markets seem ready to plunge over a precipice?the stage seems set for those final events which will usher in the coming of the Lord.

I have written a novel titled The End of the Age. In it I offer some explanations to the many questions that have plagued us about the words of Jesus regarding the last days and the veiled references in the Book of Revelation.

In Revelation 8 we learn that an angel flies in the midst of heaven holding what looks like a blazing mountain, and then he casts it into the sea with catastrophic consequences. In my book I open with a blazing asteroid (about twice the size of the one that recently narrowly missed earth) plunging into the Pacific Ocean near Catalina Island. From there a gripping story in a fictional fashion shows one view of end time events.

In the midst of our gloomy world picture, keep in mind that Jesus gave us one sure sign of his coming, ?And this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world for a witness and then shall the end come.? I know you share my sense of urgency that we must act now while there is still time to fulfill our great commission. I don?t want to stand before Him empty-handed. Our goal is to preach the gospel to a regular audience of one billion people.

The time is short, but the doors are open. With God?s anointing and the
proper resources, together we can complete the task God has set before us.
As a special thank you for your generous gift I would like to send you a copy of The End of the Age. Please request your copy today. I believe you will find it fast-paced and insightful fiction, which in turn will give you a better understanding of the prophetic events that are foretold in God?s word.

God bless you for your help. I remain,

Sincerely,

Pat Robertson







Post#3658 at 08-07-2002 07:53 PM by Number Two [at joined Jul 2002 #posts 446]
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On 2002-08-07 17:15, Tristan Jones wrote:
On 2002-08-07 16:00, alias wrote:
Looks like there may be a trend toward decriminalization of marijuana. Sign of 4T?
Frankly I see the opposite happening in the 4T, Drug users will get punished very severely indeed. I am an ultra-puritan when it comes to drugs, I would have caffeine, tobacco and alcohol banned as well as illicit drugs. More so I practice what I preacg.
Including chocolate? Why not go all the way and ban "dihydrogen monoxide" as well? :wink:

But seriously, with people like you out there, I cannot imagine drugs NOT being a big 4T issue







Post#3659 at 08-07-2002 09:42 PM by R. Gregory '67 [at Arizona joined Sep 2001 #posts 114]
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Post#3660 at 08-07-2002 09:50 PM by R. Gregory '67 [at Arizona joined Sep 2001 #posts 114]
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Post#3661 at 08-07-2002 10:36 PM by Number Two [at joined Jul 2002 #posts 446]
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On 2002-08-07 19:50, R. Gregory '67 wrote:
With tongue firmly in cheek, I offer up the following as further evidence that we are in a Fourth Turning:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811830667/

Try not to laugh *too* hard when reading this book.

:grin:
I can see this as either
1) satire of the 50s/1T or
2) serious - intended to bring up the Millies as kids

but remember, the *MILLIES* are kids in the 3T - and 1) seems pretty obviously 3T; therefore I see this as 3T







Post#3662 at 08-07-2002 11:46 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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On 2002-08-07 17:53, Number Two wrote:
On 2002-08-07 17:15, Tristan Jones wrote:
Frankly I see the opposite happening in the 4T, Drug users will get punished very severely indeed. I am an ultra-puritan when it comes to drugs, I would have caffeine, tobacco and alcohol banned as well as illicit drugs. More so I practice what I preacg.
Including chocolate? Why not go all the way and ban "dihydrogen monoxide" as well? :wink:
Not a bad thought, that. After all, we're talking about a compound of an extremely inflammable and potentially explosive gas, which is also chemically poisonous, bonded at 120 degrees to another gas which can induce intense fire! :lol:

Rumor also has it that a diabolical industrial consortium exists to mine sodium chloride, a compound of a toxic and explosive metal with a dangerous gas from Column 7 of the periodic table (a very reactive group of elements!), and after mining this mineral, induce people to consume it! :lol:

It's amazing how often people fall for that sort of thing, though.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HopefulCynic68 on 2002-08-07 21:47 ]</font>







Post#3663 at 08-07-2002 11:49 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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On 2002-08-07 19:50, R. Gregory '67 wrote:
With tongue firmly in cheek, I offer up the following as further evidence that we are in a Fourth Turning:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811830667/

Try not to laugh *too* hard when reading this book.

:grin:
My favorite line from that book, the one that really sticks in my mind, is:

"A good citizen eats meat."







Post#3664 at 08-08-2002 08:18 AM by Jesse Manoogian [at The edge of the world in all of Western civilization joined Oct 2001 #posts 448]
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On 2002-08-07 19:50, R. Gregory '67 wrote:
With tongue firmly in cheek, I offer up the following as further evidence that we are in a Fourth Turning:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811830667/

Try not to laugh *too* hard when reading this book.
Well, it says it was published in March of 2001, so unless you are suggesting a catalyst prior to 9/11, it couldn't have been what made this book popular. Frankly I get a good laugh out of seeing the "A Good Citizen Eats Meat" section. At first that part shocked me. I couldn't IMAGINE that those things were actually printed in those days.


By the way, can you tell what generation each of the nine Amazon reviewers belongs to? What generations can you figure out?







Post#3665 at 08-08-2002 08:29 AM by Jesse Manoogian [at The edge of the world in all of Western civilization joined Oct 2001 #posts 448]
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On 2002-08-07 21:49, HopefulCynic68 wrote:

My favorite line from that book, the one that really sticks in my mind, is:

"A good citizen eats meat."
Oh my god! You paid particular attention to that part too? (Read the response I posted to a note just a few posts up.)







Post#3666 at 08-08-2002 08:54 AM by jds1958xg [at joined Jan 2002 #posts 1,002]
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Hi!







Post#3667 at 08-08-2002 09:21 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Prior to entering the land of Falwell, I dwelled even for a score of years in the land of Robertson. There, I met a righteous man, who scorned the Robertson, calling him the anti-Christ. "Robertson is only in it (religion) because it pays", said he. He is surely the chief God-Nazi.


Not being a religous person myself, I'm not sure what a God-Nazi is, but it doesn't sound good.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#3668 at 08-08-2002 09:35 AM by jds1958xg [at joined Jan 2002 #posts 1,002]
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Hi!







Post#3669 at 08-08-2002 09:59 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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jds:

My comment was hyperbole, but your point is still well taken.

I never had much truck with Jerry Falwell, but Pat Robertson was in a whole different league.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#3670 at 08-08-2002 11:05 AM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
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On 2002-08-07 21:46, HopefulCynic68 wrote:
On 2002-08-07 17:53, Number Two wrote:
On 2002-08-07 17:15, Tristan Jones wrote:
Frankly I see the opposite happening in the 4T, Drug users will get punished very severely indeed. I am an ultra-puritan when it comes to drugs, I would have caffeine, tobacco and alcohol banned as well as illicit drugs. More so I practice what I preacg.
Including chocolate? Why not go all the way and ban "dihydrogen monoxide" as well? :wink:
Not a bad thought, that. After all, we're talking about a compound of an extremely inflammable and potentially explosive gas, which is also chemically poisonous, bonded at 120 degrees to another gas which can induce intense fire! :lol:

Rumor also has it that a diabolical industrial consortium exists to mine sodium chloride, a compound of a toxic and explosive metal with a dangerous gas from Column 7 of the periodic table (a very reactive group of elements!), and after mining this mineral, induce people to consume it! :lol:

It's amazing how often people fall for that sort of thing, though.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HopefulCynic68 on 2002-08-07 21:47 ]</font>
Heck, would we end up with bathtub Dihydrogen Monoxide? Or would the cops have taken the tub from your house?
1987 INTP







Post#3671 at 08-08-2002 01:00 PM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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Don't forget dihydronium hydroxide. Too much of this stuff can be very hazardous.







Post#3672 at 08-08-2002 01:08 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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On the front page of The New York Times today...

<FONT SIZE="+2">Ex-Executives Say Sham Deal Helped Enron</FONT>
By DAVID BARBOZA

HOUSTON, Aug. 7 ? Desperate to meet a year-end profit target, the Enron Corporation struck a sham energy deal with Merrill Lynch that let Enron book a $60 million profit in the final days of December 1999, according to former Enron executives involved in the transaction.


Not on the front page of The New York Times today...

<FONT SIZE="+2">Clinton/Gore Cooked Books</FONT>
August 8, 2002
BY ROBERT NOVAK SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

The Commerce Department's painful report last week that the national economy is worse than anticipated obscured the document's startling revelation. Hidden in the morass of statistics, there is proof that the Clinton administration grossly overestimated the strength of the economy leading up to the 2000 election. Did the federal government join Enron and WorldCom in cooking the books?

Through all of President Bill Clinton's last two years in office, the announced level of before-tax profits was at least 10 percent too high--a discrepancy rising close to 30 percent during the last presidential campaign. Most startling, the Commerce Department in 2000 showed the economy on an upswing through most of the election year, while in fact it was declining.

The Commerce Department's Bureau of Economic Analysis estimates before-tax profits of domestic nonfinancial corporations quarterly. Revised figures last week showed profits were really lower by 10.7 percent, 12.2 percent, 15.2 percent and 18 percent for the four quarters of 1999. In 2000, this gap became a chasm. The revised quarterly profits for the election year are lower than the announced figures by 23.3 percent, 25.9 percent, 29.9 percent and 28.2 percent.

<center>____________________________</center>


Comment from the peanut gallery...

The liberal response to the first story, Those greedy, :evil: Republicans!

The liberal response to the second story, So what, everybody :razz: does it!




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc Lamb on 2002-08-08 14:07 ]</font>







Post#3673 at 08-08-2002 01:24 PM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
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...and so what's your point, Lambo?







Post#3674 at 08-08-2002 01:32 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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It would surprise only liberals to find out that a frog actually can't read, but I've known it all along.







Post#3675 at 08-08-2002 01:57 PM by bridgette [at joined Jul 2002 #posts 19]
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Well Croaky Toad. Even an foolish moron orge who writes bad poetry and puns can figure out what the point is, and it ain't yer head.
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