Originally Posted by cbailey

"Ever heard of JFK?"


Yes, and call me crazy (and maybe I am, because I've actually read and re-read, the Warren Report), but it's always been hard to believe that Oswald acted alone.. :o

This is something entirely different. Take the cartoon above and go back in time through the 3T. Substitute Reagan and Bush. No, we never would have seen it. Bush and Quayle. No, it would not have occurred to anybody to make such a cartoon. Clinton and Gore. I don't see it. People said all kinds of things about Clinton but it just does not seem to me that we would have seen such a cartoon with Clinton and Gore.

We have these cartoons, these articles, columns, etc. Democrats are going crazy at various websites. People in real life are even wondering. This really is different from what we knew in the 3T. The distrust seems to be going mainstream.

"People in real life are even wondering. This really is different from what we knew in the 3T. The distrust seems to be going mainstream."

Uh, societal "distrust" going "mainstream" is about as 3T as one can possibly get 3T. That's why libertarians tend to go underground in a 4T.

At least get the "theory", and the associated terminology right, Mr. Patton, or outline your "new and improved" theory, so that we all can understand how you use such terms as "3T".

Or, :wink: you can find some other website to weave your far-flung conspiracies.

Stonewall - you've finally convinced me - we still be 3rd Turning.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Originally Posted by justmom

O.K,
3T or 4T?
OR
the stupidest crap you've ever read:


UT frat suspended over incident
Complaints about blackface episode bring action

By J.J. Stambaugh, News-Sentinel staff writer
October 31, 2002

A University of Tennessee fraternity has been suspended because of an incident last week in which white members painted their faces to look like the black pop group The Jackson Five.

The national office of Kappa Sigma has suspended its UT chapter, which means the fraternity "no longer has standing as a registered student organization and is suspended from participating in university activities, such as Homecoming," according to a statement issued Wednesday by UT Vice President and Provost Loren Crabtree.

I might as well disappoint even more of my fellow T4T-ers of the Progressive sort. I too performed minstrel songs in blackface some forty years ago... and attained county-wide success but not getting to State in "Share-the Fun" talent shows. I was not suspended but given ribbons of Merit. It must have been the High times. HTH

People can fein distaste for it all they want. The fact is there is a HUGE market for black-face and all things related. Don't believe me?
Try doing a search on ebay for "nigger" and " black americana".
Those items fetch a rather remarkable sum.
I've even sold some myself.

Originally Posted by David Krein

Stonewall - you've finally convinced me - we still be 3rd Turning.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Fascinating... here is a leading university educator, a man devoted to the development of expanding young minds, a man who claims to know "banal, simplistic, and sophomoric" when he sees it, and to have the ability to analyze said "banal, simplistic, and sophomoric" junk when he sees it and to then "flunk" it.

But after a year of my reading my analysis of a "theory", it is not my logic that convinces this educator, but rather a kook that convinces this educator that "we still be 3rd Turning."

There's a lesson in there, somewhere, boys and girls. Somewhere.

Originally Posted by Marc Lamb

after a year of my reading my analysis of a "theory", it is not my logic that convinces this educator, but rather a kook that convinces this educator that "we still be 3rd Turning."

There's a lesson in there, somewhere, boys and girls. Somewhere.

hmmm.... and apparently that lesson is "pomposity convinces no one, but zealotry seems to work (albeit in the opposite direction)". :wink:


TK

Originally Posted by TrollKing

Originally Posted by Marc Lamb

after a year of my reading my analysis of a "theory", it is not my logic that convinces this educator, but rather a kook that convinces this educator that "we still be 3rd Turning."

There's a lesson in there, somewhere, boys and girls. Somewhere.

hmmm.... and apparently that lesson is "pomposity convinces no one, but zealotry seems to work (albeit in the opposite direction)". :wink:


TK

Pretty obvious to me :-) - with some of the Stoner stuff I almost thought HE thought we were in a 3T

Originally Posted by TrollKing

hmmm.... and apparently that lesson is "pomposity convinces no one, but zealotry seems to work (albeit in the opposite direction)". :wink: TK

Pomposity intended, my dear Trollking. Not only is it fun to engage in, it also a great tactic to use with flower children (like Buzzard), and flower children's children (like you), as it tends to dissuade those with a dislike for logic, principle, truth, traditions, enduring foundations, respect for law and the like from ever even considering said notions.

It's a conspiracy, you know, this "pomposity" thing. It's run by a Goldwater syndicate. :wink:

Brace for blowback. This article details what should be obvious:



November 1, 2002

Into the Dark
The Pentagon Plan to Provoke Terrorist Attacks

by CHRIS FLOYD

This age: layers of lime harden in the sick son's blood... There's nowhere to run from the tyrant- epoch... Who else will you kill? Who else glorify? What other lies will you invent?

Osip Mandelshtam,
"1 January 1924"

This column stands foursquare with the Honorable Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, when he warns that there will be more terrorist attacks against the American people and civilization at large. We know, as does the Honorable Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, that this statement is an incontrovertible fact, a matter of scientific certainty. And how can we and the Honorable Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, be so sure that there will be more terrorist attacks against the American people and civilization at large?

Because these attacks will be instigated at the order of the Honorable Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense.

This astonishing admission was buried deep in a story which was itself submerged by mounds of gray newsprint and glossy underwear ads in last Sunday's Los Angeles Times. There--in an article by military analyst William Arkin, detailing the vast expansion of the secret armies being massed by the former Nixon bureaucrat now lording it over the Pentagon--came the revelation of Rumsfeld's plan to create "a super- Intelligence Support Activity" that will "bring together CIA and military covert action, information warfare, intelligence, and cover and deception."

According to a classified document prepared for Rumsfeld by his Defense Science Board, the new organization--the "Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group (P2OG)"--will carry out secret missions designed to "stimulate reactions" among terrorist groups, provoking them into committing violent acts which would then expose them to "counterattack" by U.S. forces.

In other words--and let's say this plainly, clearly and soberly, so that no one can mistake the intention of Rumsfeld's plan--the United States government is planning to use "cover and deception" and secret military operations to provoke murderous terrorist attacks on innocent people. Let's say it again: Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the other members of the unelected regime in Washington plan to deliberately foment the murder of innocent people--your family, your friends, your lovers, you--in order to further their geopolitical ambitions [emphasis mine].

(Continued at link)

http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd1101.html

Originally Posted by Marc Lamb

flower children's children (like you)

wrong.... my parents were anything but.

Originally Posted by Marc Lamb

it tends to dissuade those with a dislike for logic, principle, truth, traditions, enduring foundations, respect for law and the like from ever even considering said notions.

though you may not care to ever admit it, sometimes the application of logic, principle, and truth demands that traditions, enduring foundations, and respect for law be relegated to the proverbial back burner or cast aside entirely. only when looking through a tainted lens are they always mutually inclusive (or, for that matter, exclusive).


TK

Marc - a small corrective. I am not (thankfully) a University educator. The denizens of American universities are largely reflexive, benighted America-bashing socialists, dominated by sexually androgynous devot?es of half-baked, second-rate French philosophers. They are places where theory substitutes for fact, where obfuscation trumps clarity, where political passion transcends reason, and where obtuseness passes for wisdom. I am proudly a Community College teacher where we really do care about teaching and learning. With us tnere is none of the hypocritic lip-service Universities pay to undergraduates where, perforce, the students are dumped into the intellectually cramped world of political correctness.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Great big happy Duh? You conservatives are so shocked that Democrats jump to the worst conclusions about the Republican party????

Anybody remember E2K? How soon we forget. It was in all the papers, remember?

It doesn't make the papers these days, but a lot of people still believe the presidential election was, at best, decided by chicanary and nepotism that doesn't bear close inspection. 911 only masked that. I believe myself to be a rather level headed person and it crossed even *my* mind that Wellstone's death seemed terribly convienient ...

Except for the tiny fact that his anti-war stance made it look like he could lose even a Democratic stronghold like Minnesota. Mondale has a better chance of holding that seat than he did.

So if anyone killed Wellstone, maybe it was the Democrats ...



(Not, you understand, that I'd put it past some Republicans either ... )

(ahh, the truth really is out there ... :lol

Originally Posted by angeli

Except for the tiny fact that his anti-war stance made it look like he could lose even a Democratic stronghold like Minnesota.

Actually, you have that backwards. Wellstone jumped out firmly in the lead as soon as he voted against the Iraq war resolution. There is a lesson there for Democrats if they would get the hell out of 3T mode and ignore the so-called polls.

Mondale has a better chance of holding that seat than he did.

Unfortunately, Mondale has all of Wellstone's vices and none of his virtues. Don't look for Mondale to take a principled stand on anything. In substance, it will be just as if Coleman had won. Mondale may be the Democrat, but no one has replaced Wellstone.

Why oh why, Didn't the Bush team target Grey (out) Davis?

Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton

...that a weather radar map from the hour that the plane went down shows no precipitation anywhere in northern Minnesota, and the on-the-scene reporter said there was no indication that weather was a factor, which was confirmed by officials the day of the crash. But two days later Robert Benzon, the NTSB official in charge of the investigation describes temperatures near freezing with icy and snowy conditions at the time of the crash, and is searching for “valves and cockpit switches that could indicate whether the plane's de-icing equipment was functioning.” The story takes shape.

Is he kidding? On the 5 PM news in the Twin Cities, they showed a radar map from about 10:30 AM on the day he died. There was light precipitation in the Iron Range, which is where the plane went down. "No precipitation" is a bold-faced lie.

...that Wellstone avoided an apparent assassination attempt in Colombia (where there’s an active CIA presence) less than two years ago.

Come on, he was 20 miles from the incident. I remember that incident clearly. He wasn't close to the incident at all, but he acted like he was right near it and could have died. Yeah right.

Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton

Here is a cartoon. I don't recall seeing anything this bold and direct with Bush I, and not even with Clinton despite all the plots and schemes attributed to him by many on the right. Until very recently, this would have been regarded as beyond the pale and authors/artists would have drawn back. Now there no longer appears to be any pale left. Can we really become any more unraveled? I don't think so. Surely this is an indication that we are in pre-regeneracy 4T:

The thing is, cartoons aren't real, and therefore lack all credibility.

A new poll on the Minnesota Senate Race has been conducted by Mason-Dixon, the Saint Paul Pioneer Press, and Minnesota Public radio, from October 30 to November 1.

OVERALL
Coleman: 47%
Mondale: 41%
Others: 2%
Undecided 10%

MEN
Coleman: 54%
Mondale: 36%
Others: 2%
Undecided: 8%

WOMEN
Coleman: 41%
Mondale: 45%
Others: 2%
Undecided: 8%

UNDER 50
Coleman: 53%
Mondale: 37%
Others: 2%
Undecided: 8%

OVER 50
Coleman: 41%
Mondale: 45%
Others: 2%
Undecided: 12%

IN FAVOR OF FIGHTING IRAQ (60% OF RESPONDENTS)
Coleman: 67%
Mondale: 21%
Others: 2%
Undecided: 10%

AGAINST FIGHTING IRAQ (40% OF RESPONDENTS)
Coleman: 17%
Mondale: 71%
Others: 2%
Undecided: 10%

PEOPLE WHO PLANNED TO VOTE FOR WELLSTONE (46%)
Coleman: 6%
Mondale: 86%
Others: 1%
Undecided: 7%

PEOPLE WHO DID NOT PLAN TO VOTE FOR WELLSTONE, PLUS UNDECIDED PEOPLE (54%)
Coleman: 81%
Mondale: 3%
Others: 2%
Undecided: 14%

DO YOU THINK MONDALE IS THE BEST REPLACEMENT FOR WELLSTONE?
Yes: 55%
No: 17%
Not Sure: 28%

PREVIOUS QUESTION AMONG MONDALE SUPPORTERS ONLY
Yes: 81%
No: 3%
Not Sure: 16%

WAS YOUR SENATE CHOICE INFLUENCED BY THE MEMORIAL SERVICE?
Yes: 17%
No: 81%
Not Sure: 2%

PREVIOUS QUESTION AMONG COLEMAN SUPPORTERS ONLY
Yes: 31%
No: 68%
Not Sure: 1%

PREVIOUS QUESTION AMONG MONDALE SUPPORTERS ONLY
Yes: 3%
No: 94%
Not Sure: 3%

MARGIN OF ERROR: 4%

That 31% two questions ago seems to indicate that the memorial service may have greatly affected the Senate race, and possibly the balance of power of the Senate in favor of the Republicans.

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

The thing is, cartoons aren't real, and therefore lack all credibility.

Yes, of course, but that is not the point. The point is that the possible reality represented by the cartoon has entered into the mainstream consciousness. We saw all kinds of dastardly deeds assigned to Clinton during his tenure, but they never entered into (or were accepted in) the mainstream consciousness. This is fundamentally different.

Due to various parallels and patterns, millions and millions of mainstream Americans, even many conservative Republicans, actually stopped and entertained the notion that Wellstone's death may not have been an accident. Regardless of whether they caught themselves and said, "No, that cannot be," they still stopped and actually considered it as a very real possibility. That is a distinct change from what we have known in the past. Such thoughts never would have crossed anybody's minds prior to 10 years ago and, over the past decade, such thoughts were confined to the minds of an ideological minority. There was no "mainstream" penetration any more than there had been prior to 10 years ago. The cartoon represents a radical change in mainstream perceptions from even 1-3 years ago and it has very ominous implications. Public distrust can increase no further and, thus, we have reached rock-bottom. This is the beginning of the problem recognition phase of the early 4T and it is downright creepy.

Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

The thing is, cartoons aren't real, and therefore lack all credibility.

Yes, of course, but that is not the point. The point is that the possible reality represented by the cartoon has entered into the mainstream consciousness. We saw all kinds of dastardly deeds assigned to Clinton during his tenure, but they never entered into (or were accepted in) the mainstream consciousness. This is fundamentally different.

Due to various parallels and patterns, millions and millions of mainstream Americans, even many conservative Republicans, actually stopped and entertained the notion that Wellstone's death may not have been an accident. Regardless of whether they caught themselves and said, "No, that cannot be," they still stopped and actually considered it as a very real possibility. That is a distinct change from what we have known in the past. Such thoughts never would have crossed anybody's minds prior to 10 years ago and, over the past decade, such thoughts were confined to the minds of an ideological minority. There was no "mainstream" penetration any more than there had been prior to 10 years ago. The cartoon represents a radical change in mainstream perceptions from even 1-3 years ago and it has very ominous implications. Public distrust can increase no further and, thus, we have reached rock-bottom. This is the beginning of the problem recognition phase of the early 4T and it is downright creepy.

"Millions and Millions"? Prove it. I dare you. Go right ahead and show me anything at all that proves that "Millions and Millions" of Americans even remotely considered that he was murdered.

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

That 31% two questions ago seems to indicate that the memorial service may have greatly affected the Senate race, and possibly the balance of power of the Senate in favor of the Republicans.

Oh, BS. The only people who have batted an eye at this thing are partisan Republicans who will politicize anything. It is no more their business how the Wellstone family conducts its memorial service than it is the Wellstone family's business how they might conduct their own family's memorial service. They realize this, of course, but they have willingly forfeited their moral authority in giving their souls to this Bush crowd. That 31% strictly represents the approximately 31% of the electorate who is actually registed Republican. Honest people recognize that it is none of their affair how the Wellstone family conducts its memorial service and do not care a whit.

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

"Millions and Millions"? Prove it. I dare you. Go right ahead and show me anything at all that proves that "Millions and Millions" of Americans even remotely considered that he was murdered.

Give me a break. I know plenty of people in real life who stopped and asked themselves this, many of them conservative Republicans. Many others are reporting the same thing. It is only natural considering Carnahan and everything else that has been going on. I have never seen anything like this in my life.

Has anyone watched "That's My Bush!" on Comedy Central?
I caught 5 episodes in a row last night. (Friday night programing aimed at xers, I guess. South Park followed ....)
I have NEVER seen anything like that before, even during Clinton's Monica Days.

My husband said it reminded him of the burlesque routines making fun of Hitler, pre-WWII.

:o

Agreed, muchos y muchas. It is as I stated in an earlier post. I see a new aura (or nimbus) glowing around reality which definately was not there before. Entering this new phase of the crisis tells me that we are in the Fourth Turning.

I might as well also say that I have had this feeling of immance of premonition like it is right in front of my face for some days now. Election? Disaster? Stock Market crash? I don't know. But, I feel that it is soon. :o

Agreed, muchos y muchas. It is as I stated in an earlier post. I see a new aura (or nimbus) glowing around reality which definately was not there before. Entering this new phase of the crisis tells me that we are in the Fourth Turning.

I might as well also say that I have had this feeling of immance of premonition like it is right in front of my face for some days now. Election? Disaster? Stock Market crash? I don't know. But, I feel that it is soon.

Earthquakes. Has anyone noticed the number of earthquakes around the world in the past week and their severity? Thats what's scaring me. I have the same feeling, been having nightmares the last few nights as well. I can't remember details, but they were apocalyptic. Sorry to scare everyone.