Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 182







Post#4526 at 11-14-2002 06:26 PM by alias [at joined Jul 2002 #posts 82]
---
11-14-2002, 06:26 PM #4526
Join Date
Jul 2002
Posts
82

Al Gore comes out in support of single-payer health care

Al Gore comes out in support of a single-payer health care system.


http://abcnews.go.com/sections/polit..._Special2.html







Post#4527 at 11-14-2002 08:13 PM by Katie '85 [at joined Sep 2002 #posts 306]
---
11-14-2002, 08:13 PM #4527
Join Date
Sep 2002
Posts
306

Quote Originally Posted by Croaker'39
I actually thought all young people today were about scared fudgeless.
Millies, scared of the future? Not the ones I know. Being "scared fudgeless" seems to me like a very un-Civic trait. :wink:
Much madness is divinest sense. -- Emily Dickinson







Post#4528 at 11-15-2002 12:22 AM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
---
11-15-2002, 12:22 AM #4528
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Minneapolis
Posts
1,622

Quote Originally Posted by Croaker'39

Don’t join the military just yet, Alex, unless you have all the vaccinations and a fresh supply of atrophine.

--your friend, Croaker
Ugh, I'm so uncoordinated that the only way I would ever join any of the Military branches is if I were drafted. And, if a draft lottery happens for people born in 1987, I will be praying that 4/8 gets 300 or higher (preferably 365). Even if I did get drafted, they'd probably kick me out for being so bad at everything. That or they'd put me somewhere where I use my brains and not my (lack of) muscles.
1987 INTP







Post#4529 at 11-15-2002 12:56 PM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
---
11-15-2002, 12:56 PM #4529
Join Date
Nov 2001
Location
The hazardous reefs of Silentium
Posts
2,426

Alex?

Don?t worry too much about that muscle, it?s only a perfunctory tissue. Brain power will serve you better in the long run. Anxiety, in your case, is like the necessary fluff of a dandelion seed. Be careful, though, they organize wonderful religions around it, to polarize their gods, and fight, and die. We?re about to see it all over again.

My last experience with a 4T ended at Nagasaki. Now, you don?t want to have one of those everyday. So here?s my recommended therapy, Alex: first watch the movie ?Fail Safe,? then watch ?Dr. Strangelove.? That will take your mind off any other trivial problems you may have.

--Croakin' or ya!







Post#4530 at 11-15-2002 01:17 PM by Mike Eagen [at Phoenix, AZ joined Oct 2001 #posts 941]
---
11-15-2002, 01:17 PM #4530
Join Date
Oct 2001
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Posts
941

Lack of Muscles

Quote Originally Posted by AlexMnWi
Quote Originally Posted by Croaker'39

Don?t join the military just yet, Alex, unless you have all the vaccinations and a fresh supply of atrophine.

--your friend, Croaker
Ugh, I'm so uncoordinated that the only way I would ever join any of the Military branches is if I were drafted. And, if a draft lottery happens for people born in 1987, I will be praying that 4/8 gets 300 or higher (preferably 365). Even if I did get drafted, they'd probably kick me out for being so bad at everything. That or they'd put me somewhere where I use my brains and not my (lack of) muscles.
Not to worry Alex, we have ways of building strong muscles and minds. :wink:







Post#4531 at 11-15-2002 03:37 PM by Chris Loyd '82 [at Land of no Zones joined Jul 2001 #posts 402]
---
11-15-2002, 03:37 PM #4531
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Land of no Zones
Posts
402

Is there a draft in here?

Ah, the draft. Alex, if the rules remain the same as they were in the Vietnam War, you shouldn't worry if you are (a) a college student (exemptions abound) and/or (b) have no brothers. As far as I know, only males do the SS(S) thing. However, for older Millies in general, many of them will be out of college by 2006. Also, the rule may change. If Bush decides to start drafting people in the colon--, er, conqu--, er, safekeeping of Iraq, that would be actual impetus for me to leave. Or, perhaps, join as an officer (with an architecture degree?) an see if I get my butt into space.

Earth is so small...with some money and fewer politics, we could leave the joint.







Post#4532 at 11-15-2002 03:46 PM by Max [at Left Coast joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,038]
---
11-15-2002, 03:46 PM #4532
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Left Coast
Posts
1,038

My head stays so clear and unmuddled when I don't visit this place. I guess I come for a shot of self inficted pain.

I really like Alex's posts, as I've often said before. Gives me hope for the future

My father and mother dob 1933, Lived through some of the things some of the older posters on these boards lived though too. Namely, The Great Depression, Polio, poverty, WWII, etc... etc... etc... ( in a Yule Brenner accent) They taught me not to cower under a rock, but, to pull yourself up
by your bootstraps, suck it up, life ain't for cowards, nobody's going to do it for you, there's no such thing as a free lunch, There's nothing certain in life but, death and taxes...

....makes me wonder how other people didn't learn those same lessons....

__________________________________________________ ___________







Post#4533 at 11-15-2002 05:14 PM by [at joined #posts ]
---
11-15-2002, 05:14 PM #4533
Guest

Quote Originally Posted by Katie '85
Quote Originally Posted by Croaker'39
I actually thought all young people today were about scared fudgeless.
Millies, scared of the future? Not the ones I know. Being "scared fudgeless" seems to me like a very un-Civic trait. :wink:
Not quite right, young Ms. Katie, on this "un-Civic trait" business. Suffice to say, those of the previous unCroaker-like generation just didn't have the immense luxuries those of the Silent generation would enjoy. Namely luxuries like elders who now "got it" with regards to evil men and the evil designs of such men. Or the luxuries of post graduate educational opportunities, vast entitlement resources, strong infustructure and civic institutions geared toward a generation of young Croakers coming of age.

Nah, the young GIs had none of the luxuries at all. So they had to sacrifice en masse, dream en masse, create en masseand build them, en masse, lest they, and the whole world with them, sank into a cesspool of serfdom and totalitarian hell.

But Croaker, I fear, leans more to the French model of civilisation. "Let us build for ourselves a Maginot line against the maggots like Saddam, Kim II Sung and Jiang Zemin." he demands. "Let us not bother them, so they won't bother us!" he opines. What wisdom, huh?

All the while, his generation retreats with all the entitlement goodies they can grab while the grabbing is still good. Then, ever so coyly, inquiring on the fears facing a new generation they all pretended as if would never see the light of day, or if that generation did come it would surely be into a world resembling that of Ridley Scott's Bladerunner.

Aren't you scared fudgeless, Alex, aren't you scared fudgeless?

What a pathetic question, Croaker!


p.s. Yeah, I probably was. Duly amended. Sorry about that.







Post#4534 at 11-15-2002 05:39 PM by Sanford [at joined Aug 2002 #posts 282]
---
11-15-2002, 05:39 PM #4534
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
282

Marc Lamb wrote:

(Something unduly harsh which he later amended, so I see no reason to preserve it for posterity.)

I think you are being unduly harsh here, Marc. You're reading a lot into what he says that I'm not getting. To be honest, half the time I can't quite figure him out. Still, show some respect.

(As for Blade Runner, dystopian issues aside, I'll take the flying cars.)







Post#4535 at 11-15-2002 06:35 PM by [at joined #posts ]
---
11-15-2002, 06:35 PM #4535
Guest

Quote Originally Posted by Sanford
(As for Blade Runner, dystopian issues aside, I'll take the flying cars.)
They are PVCs or "Personal Verticraft", and in the movie they were given the neat name of "Spinners".

They really do look like a lot of fun, and they are coming to a town near you, in the not too distant future. But it won't be in a world envisioned by the doom and gloomers.

A recent nationwide survey, sponsored by the Pew Charitable Trusts and carried out by Berkeley's Survey Research Center has revealed The new generation gap. And Croaker ain't gonna like hearing this!

"It is fair to say, however, that these results describe the development of a new generation gap, one that is the reverse of the much-discussed gap of the 60's. In that earlier day, the liberal kids were impatient with the conservative traditions of their elders."


But I'll take it. :wink:







Post#4536 at 11-15-2002 06:56 PM by Max [at Left Coast joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,038]
---
11-15-2002, 06:56 PM #4536
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Left Coast
Posts
1,038

just like S&H said it would happen.

I suppose all the liberal posters here missed that part. :o







Post#4537 at 11-15-2002 07:11 PM by TrollKing [at Portland, OR -- b. 1968 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,257]
---
11-15-2002, 07:11 PM #4537
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Portland, OR -- b. 1968
Posts
1,257

Quote Originally Posted by justmom
just like S&H said it would happen.

I suppose all the liberal posters here missed that part. :o
before you go getting all smarmy, mom, you may want to re-read both S&H and that article. notice that, along with the turn toward conservatism was this paragraph:

"There were some mixed results in the survey. Young people felt that sexual content and violence on television were less serious problems than did their elders. And the younger generation was more concerned about discrimination and the environment. "

i would posit that it's more that the young folks are bristling against the radicalism of both sides. a return to the middle, not the right.


TK







Post#4538 at 11-15-2002 08:24 PM by Mike Eagen [at Phoenix, AZ joined Oct 2001 #posts 941]
---
11-15-2002, 08:24 PM #4538
Join Date
Oct 2001
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Posts
941

Re: Is there a draft in here?

Quote Originally Posted by Chris Loyd '82
Ah, the draft. Alex, if the rules remain the same as they were in the Vietnam War, you shouldn't worry if you are (a) a college student (exemptions abound) and/or (b) have no brothers. As far as I know, only males do the SS(S) thing. However, for older Millies in general, many of them will be out of college by 2006. Also, the rule may change. If Bush decides to start drafting people in the colon--, er, conqu--, er, safekeeping of Iraq, that would be actual impetus for me to leave. Or, perhaps, join as an officer (with an architecture degree?) an see if I get my butt into space.

Earth is so small...with some money and fewer politics, we could leave the joint.
http://www.sss.gov answers all for you.







Post#4539 at 11-15-2002 09:15 PM by [at joined #posts ]
---
11-15-2002, 09:15 PM #4539
Guest

THE TROLLKING!

Quote Originally Posted by TrollKing
Quote Originally Posted by justmom
just like S&H said it would happen.

I suppose all the liberal posters here missed that part. :o
before you go getting all smarmy, mom, you may want to re-read both S&H and that article. notice that, along with the turn toward conservatism was this paragraph:
"Young people held more conservative views about religion. For example, 40 percent of adults favored federal aid to religious charities, but 59 percent of college-age young people supported the concept, and 67 percent of teenagers were in favor. Young people had a more favorable view of Christian fundamentalists than their seniors, 33 percent compared with 26 percent."

That one will warm Croaker's froggy heart!


Gosh, you folks from the Northwest Straits really hang together, huh? Funny, I recall another poster using this "smarmy" term in describing us conservative GOPers. Yeah, that frog from "Puget Puddle".

Main Entry: smarmy
Pronunciation: 'sm?r-mE
Function: adjective
Etymology: smarm to gush, slobber
Date: 1924
1 : revealing or marked by a smug, ingratiating, or false earnestness <a tone of smarmy self-satisfaction -- New Yorker>
2 : of low sleazy taste or quality <smarmy eroticism>


Hummm, back on page 178 of this thread, I also recall an interesting rebuttal by said "Trollking" on the mystical power of generational effects of "flowers":

Quote Originally Posted by TrollKing
Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
flower children's children (like you)
wrong.... my parents were anything but.

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
it tends to dissuade those with a dislike for logic, principle, truth, traditions, enduring foundations, respect for law and the like from ever even considering said notions.
though you may not care to ever admit it, sometimes the application of logic, principle, and truth demands that traditions, enduring foundations, and respect for law be relegated to the proverbial back burner or cast aside entirely. only when looking through a tainted lens are they always mutually inclusive (or, for that matter, exclusive). TK
What I care to "admit" has to take a backseat to the fact that your post simply confirmed Strauss and Howe's theory about generations. That noted, I do find this "smarmy" thing very interesting. I am tempted to discount it entirely based solely on the fact that both you, and the frog, hail from that piece of American turf that, while very liberal indeed, just obliterated that Socialized health-care initiative on the ballot by a tune of about 8-2 (against).

Still, it is the GOP that are "smarmy"? Hummm, got think on that. :-?







Post#4540 at 11-15-2002 10:36 PM by Max [at Left Coast joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,038]
---
11-15-2002, 10:36 PM #4540
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Left Coast
Posts
1,038

Quote Originally Posted by TrollKing
Quote Originally Posted by justmom
just like S&H said it would happen.

I suppose all the liberal posters here missed that part. :o
before you go getting all smarmy, mom, you may want to re-read both S&H and that article. notice that, along with the turn toward conservatism was this paragraph:

"There were some mixed results in the survey. Young people felt that sexual content and violence on television were less serious problems than did their elders. And the younger generation was more concerned about discrimination and the environment. "

i would posit that it's more that the young folks are bristling against the radicalism of both sides. a return to the middle, not the right.


TK
Yeah, I noticed that paragraph....."There were some mixed results in the survey. Young people felt that sexual content and violence on television were less serious problems than did their elders. ...."

Did you notice this ? "This is confirmed by ........ significant increases in teen virginity. "

"You are what you do" -Kuato
That doesn't sound middle-ish to me. Perhaps it's because I myself am not so much to the Right as the middle? :wink:




And finally the whole article is summed up with : Perhaps middle-aged and older Americans who are often dismayed about the generation behind can take some encouragement from this latest report from Berkeley ? unless, of course, the older folks are some of those liberal baby boomers!


So once again, I can only conclude the liberal posters missed that part.

I'm sure there is a psycological term for 'seletive reading'.







Post#4541 at 11-15-2002 11:43 PM by [at joined #posts ]
---
11-15-2002, 11:43 PM #4541
Guest

A thought came to me while sitting in traffic tonight, about why we are still in the 3T. The indicator I was thinking about was that we current nomads haven't settled in yet. Our oldest cohort should be just under 40 now, and society seems to be chugging along as the same sort of "Devil May Care/Stupid B*llshit" machine it has been since the 80s. In contrast, the oldest of Lost cohorts was closer to 50 than 40 when the Crash of 29 hit. The Liberty generation was likewise "40ish" when the American Revolution hit.

September 11th was a Crisis of sorts, and we could have an early "winter" here, but I am no longer so sure. Does anyone know any of the Lost still alive and lucid? I would like to ask one of them if things feel more like after WW1 or The Great Crash to them. Asking a GI would not be the same, since they would remember WW1 without the feel of direct personal danger and involvement the Lost did.







Post#4542 at 11-16-2002 12:04 AM by Max [at Left Coast joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,038]
---
11-16-2002, 12:04 AM #4542
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Left Coast
Posts
1,038

Nah, it's not winter yet. 85 degrees in the shade for me today. :wink:

But seriously, Earthshine, that's what Marc's been saying. ....the boomers are too young, they don't control congress completely......







Post#4543 at 11-16-2002 12:05 AM by Max [at Left Coast joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,038]
---
11-16-2002, 12:05 AM #4543
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Left Coast
Posts
1,038

Nah, it's not winter yet. 85 degrees in the shade for me today. :wink:

But seriously, Earthshine, that's what Marc's been saying. ....the boomers are too young, they don't control congress completely......

You'll have to read his posts, He waxes more eloquent than I.







Post#4544 at 11-16-2002 12:06 AM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
---
11-16-2002, 12:06 AM #4544
Join Date
Nov 2001
Location
The hazardous reefs of Silentium
Posts
2,426

So I repeat the question: " WHY are Republicans so sucka-sucka smarmy?

justmom, this is YOUR specialty, isn't it?







Post#4545 at 11-16-2002 12:15 AM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
---
11-16-2002, 12:15 AM #4545
Join Date
Nov 2001
Location
The hazardous reefs of Silentium
Posts
2,426

Quote Originally Posted by Xer of Evil
Frogman, YOU seem to be the only one running scared around here. Frankly, I don't get it. Anyone who understands evolution knows that death is just a part of life. Or are you hoping to be cloned and live forever?

XoE
No XoE, you miss the point. I'm just trying to be clear like Jean-Paul Sartre.







Post#4546 at 11-16-2002 12:31 AM by [at joined #posts ]
---
11-16-2002, 12:31 AM #4546
Guest

Funny, I've always thought of you as a cheap imitation of Benny Hill, Croak. :wink:







Post#4547 at 11-16-2002 12:37 AM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
---
11-16-2002, 12:37 AM #4547
Join Date
Nov 2001
Location
The hazardous reefs of Silentium
Posts
2,426

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
Funny, I've always thought of you as a cheap imitation of Benny Hill, Croak. :wink:
So how are things in Chillicothe, where the children are crying because you let the children cry?







Post#4548 at 11-16-2002 12:52 AM by [at joined #posts ]
---
11-16-2002, 12:52 AM #4548
Guest

It's a taxing, er, money, uh, er, kulteral "trust" issue, here in Chillyland, Croak. The kind of things, namely the buck$, unknown in Lake Wobegon land.

But then again, we, here in Chillicothe, tend to frown upon Karl Marx. :wink:







Post#4549 at 11-16-2002 02:13 AM by Max [at Left Coast joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,038]
---
11-16-2002, 02:13 AM #4549
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Left Coast
Posts
1,038

Do frogs crap in the same water they live in?







Post#4550 at 11-16-2002 02:27 AM by TrollKing [at Portland, OR -- b. 1968 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,257]
---
11-16-2002, 02:27 AM #4550
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Portland, OR -- b. 1968
Posts
1,257

Re: THE TROLLKING!

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
"Young people held more conservative views about religion. For example, 40 percent of adults favored federal aid to religious charities, but 59 percent of college-age young people supported the concept, and 67 percent of teenagers were in favor. Young people had a more favorable view of Christian fundamentalists than their seniors, 33 percent compared with 26 percent."
that quote had nothing to do with what i posted. i was pointing out that millies have not gone "right", but rather away from radicalism in general. thus, they are open-minded about such things.

besides, that second part doesn't tell us much. having worked in the field of market and opinion research for years, i can tell you that questions about favorable views toward anything almost always take the form of "how do you feel about XXXXX-- would you say you have a very favorable, somewhat favorable, neutral, somewhat unfavorable, or very unfavorable opinion of it/them?". when the results are discussed, "favorable" always is the lumping of "very favorable" and "somewhat favorable" together. thus a 33 percent favorable rating could be any breakdown of "very" and "somewhat", and also indicates that 67 percent said "neutral" or worse.

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
Gosh, you folks from the Northwest Straits really hang together, huh? Funny, I recall another poster using this "smarmy" term in describing us conservative GOPers. Yeah, that frog from "Puget Puddle".
hang together? not at all. i wasn't even aware the croakster was a northwesterner. and i said "smarmy" because that was exactly the tone mom was using.

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
Main Entry: smarmy
1 : revealing or marked by a smug, ingratiating, or false earnestness <a tone of smarmy self-satisfaction -- New Yorker>
that's funny-- "smarmy self-satisfaction" describes mom's tone in that post, and your tone in general. thanks for clearing it up for those who were unfamiliar with the term.

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
I also recall an interesting rebuttal by said "Trollking" on the mystical power of generational effects of "flowers":

Quote Originally Posted by TrollKing
Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
flower children's children (like you)
wrong.... my parents were anything but.

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
it tends to dissuade those with a dislike for logic, principle, truth, traditions, enduring foundations, respect for law and the like from ever even considering said notions.
though you may not care to ever admit it, sometimes the application of logic, principle, and truth demands that traditions, enduring foundations, and respect for law be relegated to the proverbial back burner or cast aside entirely. only when looking through a tainted lens are they always mutually inclusive (or, for that matter, exclusive). TK
What I care to "admit" has to take a backseat to the fact that your post simply confirmed Strauss and Howe's theory about generations.
and how did it do that? i'm as far from a flower child as my parents were, just differently. it really is all black and white to you, isn't it?

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
That noted, I do find this "smarmy" thing very interesting. I am tempted to discount it entirely based solely on the fact that both you, and the frog, hail from that piece of American turf that, while very liberal indeed, just obliterated that Socialized health-care initiative on the ballot by a tune of about 8-2 (against).
and i voted against that very measure. so, um, what's your point again?

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
Still, it is the GOP that are "smarmy"? Hummm, got think on that. :-?
no, marc, it's not the GOP. it's you. and in that post, it was mom.


TK
-----------------------------------------