Originally Posted by justmom

Did you notice this ? "This is confirmed by ........ significant increases in teen virginity. "

"You are what you do" -Kuato

That doesn't sound middle-ish to me. Perhaps it's because I myself am not so much to the Right as the middle? :wink:

but it is middle-ish. it's only teen virginity, not celibacy until marriage, which i wouldn't even consider all that conservative either. i bet "teen monogamy" is up as well.

Originally Posted by justmom

And finally the whole article is summed up with : Perhaps middle-aged and older Americans who are often dismayed about the generation behind can take some encouragement from this latest report from Berkeley ? unless, of course, the older folks are some of those liberal baby boomers!

somehow, i doubt that older folks, even the liberal ones, are dismayed by a rise in teen virginity.


TK

Originally Posted by TrollKing

Originally Posted by justmom

Did you notice this ? "This is confirmed by ........ significant increases in teen virginity. "

"You are what you do" -Kuato

That doesn't sound middle-ish to me. Perhaps it's because I myself am not so much to the Right as the middle? :wink:

but it is middle-ish. it's only teen virginity, not celibacy until marriage, which i wouldn't even consider all that conservative either. i bet "teen monogamy" is up as well.

what's the average age people lose their virginity at these days? 16? 17? I know at Jarvard it's 18...

Originally Posted by justmom

And finally the whole article is summed up with : Perhaps middle-aged and older Americans who are often dismayed about the generation behind can take some encouragement from this latest report from Berkeley ? unless, of course, the older folks are some of those liberal baby boomers!

somehow, i doubt that older folks, even the liberal ones, are dismayed by a rise in teen virginity.


TK

Except, of course, for the ones who desire the teenagers :-)

Originally Posted by Marc Lamb

I also recall an interesting rebuttal by said "Trollking" on the mystical power of generational effects of "flowers":

Originally Posted by TrollKing

wrong.... my parents were anything but.

Originally Posted by Marc Lamb

it tends to dissuade those with a dislike for logic, principle, truth, traditions, enduring foundations, respect for law and the like from ever even considering said notions.

though you may not care to ever admit it, sometimes the application of logic, principle, and truth demands that traditions, enduring foundations, and respect for law be relegated to the proverbial back burner or cast aside entirely. only when looking through a tainted lens are they always mutually inclusive (or, for that matter, exclusive). TK

What I care to "admit" has to take a backseat to the fact that your post simply confirmed Strauss and Howe's theory about generations.

"and how did it do that? i'm as far from a flower child as my parents were, just differently. it really is all black and white to you, isn't it?" TK


I wasn't talking about your parents per se. But rather the times you were born and nurtured in.


Imagine by John Lennon
Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
Living for today...
Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...
Imagine no possessions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say Im a dreamer,
But Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.


And yes, birth and death tend to be very "black and white" issues for me. They are absolute and no imagining can alter their reality.

Originally Posted by TrollKing

Originally Posted by justmom

And finally the whole article is summed up with : Perhaps middle-aged and older Americans who are often dismayed about the generation behind can take some encouragement from this latest report from Berkeley ? unless, of course, the older folks are some of those liberal baby boomers!

somehow, i doubt that older folks, even the liberal ones, are dismayed by a rise in teen virginity.


TK

We are miscommunicating on this TK, The summation of the whole article says Liberal Baby Boomers are the ones to be dismayed by this news.
The news in question isn't teen virginity, the whole of the news is the younger generation is getting more conservative as stated in the 2nd. paragraph of the article. To wit, "But now surprising news comes from this unexpected source. A recent nationwide survey released from the Berkeley campus reports that, on a broad array of topics, the values of today's younger people are more conservative than those of their elders. As one of the Berkeley researchers admitted, "It surprised us." "

I might add as a side note, that Berkely students are notoriously the most liberal students in the nation.

Since reading S&H I have been waiting with great anticipation the fall of modern day liberalism. Which was my understanding of the cycles of history. When I first came here, I thought I would find many people of the same mind. I, obviously, was quite wrong.
Still this does not dissuade my belief that it (modern day liberalism) will fail.

Many of the liberal posters here refuse to acknowlege that part of the theory. They continue to hold fast to the belief that Conservatives are evil, want to destroy the world, etc, etc. ... ad infinitum....
And to be sure the Conservatives aren't budging either, however, since the pendulum is swinging in their direction, so there is no reason for them to.

What you percieved as "smarmy" was due to the self satisfaction one finds in being correct.

Originally Posted by justmom

Nah, it's not winter yet. 85 degrees in the shade for me today. :wink:

Glad you had good weather. It was snowing here today! My new job makes me travel some too... :-?

But seriously, Earthshine, that's what Marc's been saying. ....the boomers are too young, they don't control congress completely......

There is one Xer now in Congress if I am remembering right. There are a lot of Silent, but the boomers are moving in. When there are only a couple of Silent, as there are now(or recently were) a couple of GIs, and some more Xers in the mix, we'll have a Crisis Congress.

Still, Congress isn't the only indicator of who's in power. Look at business and money and see where that power is too. When we have a few Xer Generals, that would be another sign.

The office of President is an interesting point to ponder. No Silent has held that office, yet many have made comparisons of Jimmy Carter's term as being very Adaptive-like. Bush Sr. was also known the world over as a master diplomat...a Silent like aspect to his more GI type leadership style.
When he forged the international coalition that allowed the Gulf War to go as quick as it did, he was doing what an Adaptive president would have been expected to do, yet would a Silent have pushed for the war in the first place? When our current President Bush started making his case against So-Damn, many called for him to build a similar international consensus. Was this an indication of a 3T like seeking of the status quo, or just a political tactic from those who would oppose him anyway?

You'll have to read his posts, He waxes more eloquent than I.

I think you do just fine. Even when I have not agreed with you, there has never been a problem understanding you.

Okay. This ISTJ is out in full force tonight. Here are some nits with your post, which was overall quite interesting.

Originally Posted by Earthshine

There is one Xer now in Congress if I am remembering right. There are a lot of Silent, but the boomers are moving in. When there are only a couple of Silent, as there are now(or recently were) a couple of GIs, and some more Xers in the mix, we'll have a Crisis Congress.

There are a fair number of Xers in Congress now, and some even in the Senate. An Xer was recently elected in the Senate -- the son of Senator Pryor (D-KY).

Still, Congress isn't the only indicator of who's in power. Look at business and money and see where that power is too. When we have a few Xer Generals, that would be another sign.

The office of President is an interesting point to ponder. No Silent has held that office, yet many have made comparisons of Jimmy Carter's term as being very Adaptive-like.
Bush Sr. was also known the world over as a master diplomat...a Silent like aspect to his more GI type leadership style. When he forged the international coalition that allowed the Gulf War to go as quick as it did, he was doing what an Adaptive president would have been expected to do, yet would a Silent have pushed for the war in the first place?

I dunno, some of these Silents in the Bush Administration are pretty hawkish. Rumsfeld comes to mind.

By the way, an Assistant Secretary of the Army is someone I knew well during my ashram days. He wasn't actually in the ashram himself because he was a number of years older than most of us and was married with (at the time) two teenage kids. However, because of his background as a retired military official, West Point Graduate, yada yada yada, he was frequently given the role of spokesman at DC events. Flash forward about 20-25 years and he's serving under Rumsfeld as a high-ranking political appointee. Anyway, I asked a mutual friend how this person was dealing with his role during all this upheaval (he was sworn in about two months before 911). My friend said that he (the Assistant Secretary of the Army) wants to essentially nuke Iraq. So much for peaceable Silents!

Originally Posted by Jenny Genser

Anyway, I asked a mutual friend how this person was dealing with his role during all this upheaval (he was sworn in about two months before 911). My friend said that he (the Assistant Secretary of the Army) wants to essentially nuke Iraq. So much for peaceable Silents!

I always said don't put a Silent in charge of an anything but mayhem. Look at what Allen Ginsberg got started. Marilyn Monroe and so on. It all was enough to make you want bare-breasted women by candle light. Neither poetry nor pop culture has been the same since. That's all we are anyway. Please read "Howl" and tell me it doesn't apply to our times.

Silents will get you in trouble worse than swamp rats! I don't trust 'em.

Originally Posted by justmom

Since reading S&H I have been waiting with great anticipation the fall of modern day liberalism. Which was my understanding of the cycles of history. When I first came here, I thought I would find many people of the same mind. I, obviously, was quite wrong.
Still this does not dissuade my belief that it (modern day liberalism) will fail.

Many of the liberal posters here refuse to acknowlege that part of the theory. They continue to hold fast to the belief that Conservatives are evil, want to destroy the world, etc, etc. ... ad infinitum....
And to be sure the Conservatives aren't budging either, however, since the pendulum is swinging in their direction, so there is no reason for them to.

What you percieved as "smarmy" was due to the self satisfaction one finds in being correct.

i suppose the middle is more conservative than liberals. is that what you're getting at? because if so, then yes, i agree. but it's not in and of itself conservative.

after all, i wouldn't say that the GIs were particularly conservative for their time. nor were the progressives nor the repubs. instead, they took the workable parts of the "liberal" awakening that preceded them and institutionalized them, while throwing out the proverbial bathwater.

so yeah, expect to see rising teen virginity and declining drug abuse, a turn away from "me" to "we", while a more "can-do" attitude resolves issues around such things as the environment, health care, and education. the end result will be far less "radical" than the awakening, but hardly more "conservative".

the culture will move to the middle, and while that is more conservative than the left, it will be a new middle, a bit to the left of where it was in the last high.


TK

Originally Posted by Jenny Genser

Okay. This ISTJ is out in full force tonight. Here are some nits with your post, which was overall quite interesting.

Thank you

There are a fair number of Xers in Congress now, and some even in the Senate. An Xer was recently elected in the Senate -- the son of Senator Pryor (D-KY).

Right. I was thinking of the Senate when I spoke of Congress. That's what a 12 hour day will do to you. - There is also the Senator from NH John Sununu, on our list of Xers.

By the way, an Assistant Secretary of the Army is someone I knew well during my ashram days. He wasn't actually in the ashram himself because he was a number of years older than most of us and was married with (at the time) two teenage kids. However, because of his background as a retired military official, West Point Graduate, yada yada yada, he was frequently given the role of spokesman at DC events. Flash forward about 20-25 years and he's serving under Rumsfeld as a high-ranking political appointee. Anyway, I asked a mutual friend how this person was dealing with his role during all this upheaval (he was sworn in about two months before 911). My friend said that he (the Assistant Secretary of the Army) wants to essentially nuke Iraq. So much for peaceable Silents!

This is a good point too.

In response to Froggy: Can you think of a time when you wouldn't want "bare-breasted women in candle light"? A beautiful form in romantic lighting? It doesn't get much better than that! :wink:

Be careful Earthshine, Croaker doesn't like talk of . :lol: make Croaker nervous. :P by candlelite are smutty.

Originally Posted by justmom

Be careful Earthshine, Croaker doesn't like talk of . :lol: make Croaker nervous. :P by candlelite are smutty.

Um, You have just confused me :lol:

We shall see how the Frog Ribbets

WorldNetDaily conducted a poll on the Homeland Security Act. It is an online poll so it is unscientific. But you still have to figure that there is a great deal of opposition out there. I culled some poll-takers' comments below, much of it colorful. But it is certainly 4T type of talk. We certainly never saw anything like this in the 3T. And it is good to know that there actually are Americans with pulses out there.



What do you think of the Homeland Security Act?

If the U.S. becomes a police state then the terrorists win
26.63% (1199)



Welcome to 1984
24.48% (1102)



It's only as good as the people in charge of it
9.84% (443)



Civil liberties issues outweigh the benefits
9.26% (417)



It's a tough balance between security and civil liberties
8.37% (377)



It's long overdue
6.40% (288)



It's necessary but the implications are troubling
4.98% (224)



It's the right thing to do to increase security
4.69% (211)



It's necessary but problematic
3.95% (178)



Other
1.40% (63)




TOTAL VOTES: 4502





Message No.: 74076
A bad piece of legislation, ill-conceived that should have never by Mat

got out of the "tossing around" stage. Now that it's passed it should never be enforced. It has the potential to singlehandedly turn the country into a police state - especially with the rider that failed individually but which was tacked on. The rider is a provision granting the Pentagon to snoop into everything that has happened in any citizen's life and the person won't know it. Everything from your first dirty diaper to the last site you visited on the Internet or the last e-mail or even the last reply to WND posts is subjectt to being stored away in a central snooper database for future reference. In the hands of the wrong people, that is as dangerous as the KGB during the Soviet era in Russia and the Gestapo during the Nazi era in Germany.






Message No.: 74086
Homeland Insecurity Police State by James Doggett

Why in God's name do the little princes and princesses in D.C. think that the average American citizen is so helpless and brainless that we wouldn't voluntarily get vaccinated against smallpox. The entire Congress, in my opinion, has gone from laughable to ludicrous over the last few years. If a citizen ("comrade") doesn't want the vaccine, even if it would possible save their life, then I say let them go without it. It may be God's way of thinning out the gene pool anyway. But the vaccine is only the tip of the iceberg. What's next? What is Big Brother going to do for/to you next? We'd better get up on our hind legs and be "we the people" instead of "we the sheeple."






Message No.: 74107
It is the new nazi secret police GESTAPO,right out of Hitler's by Dooger

playbook!Next will be dungeons and torture,(for the security of our homeland of course)to get information on every family member and your neighbors! Just pull on America's heartstrings, and they will give you anything(for the security of our home land of course!)People, if you give away your (RIGHTS), you'll never get them back!Remember,all methods are are ok,if you achieve security for our homeland, RIGHT? Next will come martial law.






Message No.: 74113
Why don't you ak me how by wildey-senate.com

Would of like to be a Jew living in Nazi Germany in the 30's and, if I made it, the 40's or a Ukranian farmer during Stalin's reign.
Going into Iraq is going to give our would be emperor reason to declare marshall law. It's going to increase terrorism to his and his comrades advantage. Then you will know how secure your gun rights really are under this administration.
As they say; There are four boxes of freedom. The soap box.The Ballot box. The Jury box. And the Bullet box. We have ignored those crying out from the soap box. We have not taken advantage of the ballot box in A Constitutional manner. The gov't you serve is now judge, jury and executioner. So where do we go from here?
Your living a lie people and you damn well better realize it quick.






Message No.: 74135
What's the problem? You all cheered the Republican by Ben Military

sweep of Congress because those evil Democrats were in the way. You're just getting the reward you earned.

You saw what the Republicans were up to when they urged the Patriot Act be shot through Congress without them even reading it. You maintained absolute loyalty even after you heard Bush call for this very thing, the Homeland Security Act--you KNEW it was coming, but you cheered anyway. You cheered on the "war" on terror and you're still cheering every time the Republicans slide in a new low for us to live up to, like assassinations.

Nobody questioned why such a pro-American bunch of politicians went on to demand more and more legislation instead of moving to remove unconstitutional laws, like the hundreds on gun control.

Don't stop cheering now. There's still lots they're going to do to keep us safe. They need your undying loyalty not more than ever. Well, maybe not quite that much, not with Homeland Security in place. Still, they do want you to keep on with all your goofy cheering and support. They're Republicans, so they're on your side and they only want what's good for you.

As long as you believe that and keep on cheering every atrocity they come up with, they're going to do everything they can to you, too. You can COUNT on it.







Message No.: 74137
With the Colons latest hate speach directed against Christians, I by minuteman

came to attention. I wonder if it was timed to be said after the vote? For anybody that was riding the fence on this issue this should be a wake up call. In the first place, for the umpteenthed time, we are in this mess because the Laws we already had were not enforced. Our Border Laws, Our immigration Laws, Our Criminal Laws, Our PC Court System has to shoulder a huge block of blame. We have thousands of Laws that would deal with every aspect of our so called Homeland Security. If it is not apparent by now that something is ammiss then the sudo christian community will just have to grovel themselves underground. Maybe we will see some wake up. What do you think?







Message No.: 74139
Heimatsicherheitsdienst sounds better in its native language by Heavy Metal Object

Nothing less than the Nazification Of the United States of America and its western hemisphere. Hitler would be jealous that all this fascism was accomplished with majority votes in both the house and the senate. The Nazi traitors who voted yes on this abomination signed away their rights to be Americans. They are next on the Furher's list. This Gestapo operation is a spooks dream come true plus many extras to enslave every citizen in a CIA/NSA/DOD virtual central database that monitors and grants permission to everything you need and do. It will force new vaccinations on the civilians and it will confiscate every firearm in existence. However it will also make some people Fight that normally might just stand on the sidelines. Why ?, because some NAZI will be denying them food that's WHY ? ! Some NAZI will be force injecting cancer viruses into children in front of their parents, it will force some to fight out of shear despair and torment. Many of you will now be forced to FIGHT, whether you want to or not. Your on your Own and GOD is only a spirit. Many of you will goosestep right along with the NAZI's and make fun of those who don't comply. Many of you are already part of this NAZI nightmare and your spying on this messageboard, I say WATCH your BACKS you Damn Traitors, We know who you are SCUM ! We can SEE YOU and HEAR you TOO . You think you can hide in your plush offices and drive around in fancy Hummer Surveillance SUV's, think again NAZI LOSERS ! You stick out like DUCKS in a pond. Get IT !







Message No.: 74141
The President has misread the recent election

The mandate was not so that he could move quickly to abrogate our freedoms and turn this into a new soviet union. Conservatives supported him so that partial birth abortion could be abolished, and to send a message to anyone, either foreign or domestic, who thinks this country lacks resolve against terrorists and terrorist states.

Instead we have a bill for homeland "security"??? that will FORCE vaccinations? Instead we have the White House (according to Rush Limbaugh) telling Trent Lott NOT to bring the partial abortion ban item to the floor of the Senate?

If you had told me before the mid-term election that this administration would squander the gift given to it by conservatives in two weeks flat, I would not have believed it.

This is a golden opportunity for the democrats, and I suggest they jump on it. Conservatives have been betrayed and because of this homeland gestapo bill and the partial birth abortion betrayal, a month or two from now, conservatives will likely turn their backs on this administration. Just my opinion.






Message No.: 74155
this country is slipping fast by kevin

as each new piece of legislation is passed, we lose more and more liberties. this is the best country in the world to live in but, i think it is slipping fast.
i am actively looking into going somewhere else.






Message No.: 74158
Don't Forget To Write Your Jackboots by Rapscallion

Write your senators! Call them! TO ARMS! TO ARMS! This is as serious as it gets! You are about to watch the 5th and 6th Amendments disappear come Monday. FLOOD YOUR SENATOR'S OFFICE. FLOOD YOUR NEWSPAPERS! The time is short, and the cause may be in vain, but let us not do nothing!

If you need to find out how to get in tough with your senator: http://www.trimonline.org/congress/links/







Message No.: 74175
Your papers please by thinkitthrough

It stinks. The ineptitude from all the other agencies will just be moved into the new one. The end result will be a national police force with qualified immunity, which is to say that they will not be held accountable for their actions when they violate our constitutional rights or at least what is left of our rights. Antiterrorism is the excuse for creating this monster,not the reason. If the people who hold power in this land wanted to stop these common criminals we call terrorist, they would go on the offense now and attack every country who supports this nasty bunch of criminals. Dont't worry about the slime countries who support terror, let them worry about us! HSA CAN and WILL be used against citizens of our nation you can bank on it. HSA is nothing more than elected despotism







Message No.: 74179
Have You Noticed....... by Shadow Walker

..... the change in attitude? It seems that almost EVERYONE on this MB is suddenly very seriously minded.

Has the wake up call sounded loud enough THIS TIME?

Are people finally beginning to understand that the party is nearly over?

I believe some are stirring. I believe some are beginning to open their eyes.

When they line us up and force vaccinations into our babies bodies... When mass relocations take place,... when guns are no longer available.... when you no longer have the right to make your own decisions.....
Perhaps THEN the rest will understand what all the ranting and shouting has been about.

Perhaps then, we won't seem like fanatics and loons. Perhaps then they will want to hear. Perhaps then, they will say you were right all along...

But Perhaps then it will be too late...

We need to start ranting and shouting like never before. We need to shake some people up so they can wake up enough to hear the alarm...

Take a look at HMO's post... to some it seems like a wild- eyed crazy turned loose... but folks, do not mistake PASSION for loonacy... that's what has been happening for way too long....





Message No.: 74229
Welcome, KGB, or King George Bush???? by JQP

The Republicans and Dubya are going to BLOW IT AGAIN.
Once the stupid sheople figure out what they surrendered, it will be too late to leave the country. The former Soviet Union and Europe seem to be moving toward more freedoms (except for the high taxes), while Amerika (with the help of Republicans) are moving toward a Marxist-Stalinist system. It should be stopped NOW. Ditch this idiotic "Homeland Security" initiative!






Message No.: 74232
Homeland Security in the hands of Hillary??? by Don C

If you are having difficulty wondering what all the fuss is about just think of these new anti-privacy power in the hands of Hillary Clinton!






Message No.: 74243
The blood gushes from the throat.............. by billybob

of YOUR Constitution, YOUR BILL OF RIGHTS, her throat slit by TRAITORS in high places. HOW MUCH MORE? Where are the Americans? Have all the men been turned into eunichs? I am sick and tired of "apologists" for these traitors justifying the rape of MY rights and my children's future. You are pathetic. Let's recap this "christian" president and his "christian" attorney general:
Sold computer technology to the communist chinese that will enable them to fire nuclear missles at US.
Keeps the borders wide open.
Invites the satanic religions to the white house to celebrate Ramaden--the same people YOU want to go to war with. Passes the patriot act which destroys the first, fourth and firth amendment. Has allowed over 75,000 LEGAL immigrants from Islamic countries--since 9-11--but tells us we need more laws to stop terrorists. 15 of 19 hijackers were Saudi's--no invasion of Saudi Arabia though. Ashcroft siezed the first church in the history of the US--siezed by government. Stole the property, auctioned it off and gave the proceeds to the ATF agents who did the raid. Blocked investigations into Clinton's treason. Wants Homeland Security and TIPS--exact carbon copy legislation of that used in Nazi Germany. Says not ONE WORD about American christian missionaries being murdered and tortured by muslims in Africa and Asia. Says not one word about those being killed in S. Africa by communists. Wants YOU to rah-rah a war on Saddam Hussein--even though NO hijackers were Iraqi's. yeah, this is a real "christian" group. Tell me BUSCH supporters--which of the above are YOU most proud of? I am getting weary of treason in my country. You better wake your dumb assses up....soon. Or maybe you want to wait till you get your "free" "forced" vaccination--you know-- like our troops from desert storm.....they are crippled now, dying now, but go ahead TRUST these TRAITORS WITH YOUR LIFE. Just don't try to force me to be as stupid as you are--I will bite back.






Message No.: 74249
Twenty-First Century Conservatism by Centurion

Read no more than the title of this legislation to
discern that it's unconstitutional, no less so than
its predecessor, the Patriot Act -- sovietspeak on every page.

Regarding the perps: We vote for them, we pay them, and most who of us who do so have no clue of their perfidy.

And another Veterans' Day has passed -- And we continue
to reject the Author of our liberty and those who gave
so much to protect it.

We deserve the consequences of our neglect.






Message No.: 74255

Without FREEDOM, Life is not worth living..... by viking

US Government, Keep screwing around with out freedom, and you are going to think Arab Rag head terrorists
are nice little angels, compared to what is going
happen if YOU government garbage attempt to remove
the current and recent past freedoms that we cherrish
and live under.
Germany under Hitler heard the same crap from the
Nazi government, The Russians under Stalin, heard
the same garbage from the commies, and if you think
that we the people are just going to roll over and
play dead cause a bunch of rag heads commited an
attrocity against the American people, YOU have another think coming..
Your homeland security and current activities to
protect the American people reak of an attempt to
place the American people under police state type
of government, while the real threat goes unattended.
What you politicians and EX - perts forget, is that
there are a whole lot of us out here that have extensive training and experience in handeling mid
eastern terrorists, and insurgents in general, along
with how to secure an area and its contents.
Politically correct activities don't cut the mustard,
sorry about that... but when you are dealing with
people who have only one reason for living, and that
is to die killing infidels for alhah or whatever they believe in, then the only methode of dealing with them is to assist them in quickly attaining room temperature and meeting alhah personally....closing the borders with the military and treating those who attempt to illegally enter our country as a threat to our security, and issuing a shoot on sight order will sure slow down illegal entry...
trash all supervisory personnal in the INS and border
patrol, and put folks in these positions that are not bought and paid for, or just political lackies, and give them the responsibility to secure the borders by what ever means necessary. Force INS and all law enforcment agencies to enforce the law and round up all illegals and send the back to wherever






Message No.: 74263

Where is all that "election euphoria" now? We told you by wetoldyou

you would be sold out--by BOTH parties. Dumpkofs!





Message No.: 74292

Are we really letting this happen.... by Tom

Most of what everyone has already said needs not to be repeted by me.
It is sad that we (me too) have been asleep and duped into believing that those who are elected truly are looking out for what's best.
Meanwhile,we are being sold down the primrose path.
They,(federal Gov) probably monitor this website and consider any of us making these comments subversive and that we are being marked for Re-education.
All under the guise of Homeland Security.
In another article I found today,a think tank in Florida that advises the feds are talking about making implants mandatory. See Drudge-11-16-02. Another article is about the Health and Human Director having the authority to make all of us get smallpox shots. This is in the proposed bill before the senate that the House just passed.

May God help us to have the courage to stand up under the darkening skies upon our horizion.

Trollking:

the culture will move to the middle, and while that is more conservative than the left, it will be a new middle, a bit to the left of where it was in the last high.

Correct. Or, to put it another way: in the next High, we will have a conservative (in the classic sense of holding steady and resisting change) culture, but that culture will include the concepts of racial equality, gender equality, a revised and less puritanical sexual morality, environmentalist ethic, and a broader, less exclusive spirituality (if doubtless rather stale and uncreative in typical High-era fashion) than prevailed last time around. The culture will not need to be "liberal" in order to have these features, because they will have become the status quo -- indeed, to a large degree have already done so. Just the same, new problems and inequities will arise and be deferred, to be answered in the next Awakening.

Also, we should recognize that at the same time the culture is normalizing and stabilizing during this Crisis, our institutions will be in flux, and will be dominated by a new progressivism. In that sense, our politics is moving left, not right. Only if you look at things through the filter of the Culture War might it seem otherwise. But in terms of culture, too, we aren't moving to the right; we're just ceasing to move at all. There are more urgent matters on our plate. The Time of the Prophet is ending, and the Time of the Hero begins, when politics and institutions fix our vision and culture and values move to the back burner, still present, still informing us, but no longer matters of burning contention.

justmom wrote:

And finally the whole article is summed up with : Perhaps middle-aged and older Americans who are often dismayed about the generation behind can take some encouragement from this latest report from Berkeley ? unless, of course, the older folks are some of those liberal baby boomers!


TK replied:
somehow, i doubt that older folks, even the liberal ones, are dismayed by a rise in teen virginity.


I add:

(As a middle-aged "Liberal" Baby Boomer...... with two daughters (19 and 25))

Both girls were encouraged to be liberated females and to abstain through their teen years. They chose to do just that. Their self-esteem was very connected to being empowered by knowledge of sexuality..and that meant being in control of who they were and what they wanted to be. It isn't an easy stand to take, and I'm proud of both of them.

I recollect that the many times the pressure to give in came from more Conservative cohorts. :wink:

Yesterday, The New Yorks Times ran an op=ed piece by John Miller called A Third Party on the Right in which the writer noted that E2002 "marks the third consecutive election in which a Libertarian has cost the Republican Party a Senate seat. If there had been no Libertarian Senate candidates in recent years, Republicans would not have lost control of the chamber in 2001, and a filibuster-proof, 60-seat majority would likely be within reach."

For numerous reasons, even as a conservative, that article got me all jazzed up. One reason is that if we are in the fourth turn, as so many of the libs believe, it sure as heck is a kinda funny and very uncollective one.

Last week I started running into a rather strange phenom on the internet, namely the sudden resurgence of interest in one Henry Louis Mencken. I first saw him in an article posted at LewRockwell.com, that article originally appeared in the New Individualist Review, vol. 2, no. 2, Summer 1962, called H. L. Mencken: The Joyous Libertarian by Murray N. Rothbard. A couple of days later, at TheAtlantic.com, I ran into Henry again in a piece called Mencken: America's Critic. And this weekend, NationalReview.com features not one, but two Mencken articles: Bitter Sage by Richard Brookhiser and Writing Mencken A Q&A by Kathryn Jean Lopez.


Another reason I got so jazzed is outlined in the following tribute to the "great libertarian" I wrote not long ago, here at www.fourthturning.com

Originally Posted by Marc Lamb

A Saeculum for the New Left
By Marc S. Lamb

"In the flaring parks, in the taverns, in the hushed academies, your murmur will applaud the wisdom of a thousand quacks. For theirs is the kingdom." --Kenneth Fearing, poet

SETTING THE STAGE

In his biography of H.L. Mencken, Mencken A Life, Fred Hobson observed, "If Mencken had achieved a rather substantial fame by 1920, by the mid-twenties he had become, Walter Lippmann wrote, the most powerful influence on a whole generation of educated Americans."

And H.L. Mencken was, among many things, a most splendid libertarian. In the ballyhoo of the '20s, Mencken's magazine, American Mercury, was the most widely discussed in America, and on campuses the green-backed Mercury was carried as a mark of liberation. He was "the Genghis Kahn of the American campus," and arguably the "most hated man in America."

Yet, by the thirties everything had changed for Mencken. Mired in the Great Depression, and with FDR "that Man in the White House," libertarian Mencken had lost his luster among the young. And Mencken loathed everything about the New Deal, New Dealers, and of course, FDR.

But as Hobson so keenly points out, "the New Deal was not the primary reason Mencken hated Roosevelt." No, any honest study of the man clearly reveals that there was... something else that caused Mencken to revile FDR so.

Thus Hobson concludes, "It is possible, finally, that his attitude toward Roosevelt can be explained to some extent, by envy--a feeling of which, Mencken insisted time and again, he was incapable. At the same time, he could not help but notice, as he himself put in his memoirs, that the mounting woes and insoluable problems of the depression threw the college boys and gals into the arms of Roosevelt II."

This, of course, in it's own little way was the end of the culture war that was fought in the twenties. In short, Hobson notes, "the twenties were Mencken's decade, the thirties was FDR's."

And this is the ultimate hope of the New Left, born-again in the sixties. And this is why they prevail so within these threads at T4T.

THE NEW LEFT

While their elders never lacked fot the "vision thing," the New Left has a rather bad case of what Dr. Thomas Sowell calls the "anointing" thing. It plagues their ranks from top to bottom; "[T]hese elites--the anointed--often consider themselves 'thinking people,' but much of what they call thinking turns out, on examination, to be rhetorical assertion, followed by evasions of mounting evidence against these assertions."

In otherwords, the New Left is a religion. And some of their most wildest "fundamentalists" are to be found within these 4T threads. First and foremost among them is Mr. Brian Rush.

As to the abovementioned shoot-out between libertarian Mencken and the collectivist FDR, Mr. Rush understands all too well what is happening here: He writes, "I am, of course, not unfamiliar with the libertarian view of government as an all-gobbling amoeba that expands without limit unless carefully checked."

And to wit, Mr. Rush claims, "However, there is little evidence for this historically, unless one is reluctant to concede that the expansion of government over the past few centuries has been required by increased complexity of society."

Of course this is flatly false. And today, Mr. Rush spoke of a time not too long ago, and gave us a great example, wherein based on notions of "moral principle," the said "expansion of government" was justly checked, and put in it's place (a least for a time, as we'll see).

Now we all know what that time was, right? In and around 1968, I think. Just about that time when, sociologist Robert S. Ellwood said "represented the apex of post-war America's power and glory."(The 60s Spiritual Awakening, Rutgers University Press. 1994.) And that time when it became hip to chant "Hell no, we won't go!" Yes, a rather blatant middle-finger approach to "expansion of government" and "America's power and glory", one might say.

Of course this was a time when the "expansion of government" included an "industrial military complex," of which was dedicated to, and quite good at, "killing people and breaking things." And this was not good (or at least they said so at the time) in the mind of the New Left. Hence, in Mr. Rush's worldview, to stand against such an outrageous "expansion of government" was a "principled denial of civic duty in favor of moral responsibility."

Thus was the Left born-again in complete "civic duty." And such was the end of LBJ's war along with "America's power and glory."

STAGE TWO?

Now it wasn't long after these "days of rage," that the New Left, now a firmly "principled denial of civic duty in favor of moral responsibility" kinda group, caught wind of somethin' a brewin' out in California; a geuine "principled denial of civic duty in favor of moral responsibility," in the face of continued "expansion of government" (called the "War on Poverty, or The Great Society by the self-same LBJ)

Yes, out in California, this ""principled denial of civic duty in favor of moral responsibility" kinda group, called it Proposition 13, a "political earthquake whose jolt was felt not just in Sacramento but all across the nation, including Washington, D.C." As Cato guy, Stephen Moore writes, "by 1978 raging inflation had sent property tax bills in the Golden State soaring so high that many families had to sell their homes because they couldn't afford to pay their taxes."

Hummm, so how did Mr. Rush, and the New Left feel about this little public display of "principled denial of civic duty in favor of moral responsibility"? Not too good, frankly. As Mr. Rush notes, "But in the 2T, such a blatantly selfish denial of civic duty as characterized the tax revolt isn't possible."

Isn't "possible"? My, oh my, a frontal assault on the "expansion of government" wherein the military is concerned is good and indeed a "principled denial of civic duty in favor of moral responsibility."

But a frontal assault on the "expansion of government" wherein socialism is concerned is bad and indeed a "blatantly selfish denial of civic duty."

A rather odd balance of the American citizen's freedom and liberty one might say. And a rather hypocritical take on freedom and liberty, one might say.

Military... bad.
Socialism... good.

Funny thing too. As I read the U.S. Constitution, I see government entrusted with the "Power To Raise and Maintain Armed Forces," but I see nothing that would justify an everlasting "expansion of government" via socialism, or anything that would empower such a "torrent of horror stories from teachers' unions, politicians, newspapers and corporate lobbyists" in the face of Propositon 13.

Sadly, it even gets worse from our New Left friends here at T4T.

A SAECULUM FOR THE NEW LEFT

Now, Mr. Rush had two reasons for saying all those things about "expansion of government" and "principled denial of civic duty in favor of moral responsibility."

The first reason was to justify that, in Mr Rush's own words, "Ronald Reagan was the anti-Awakening president."

And the second reason is to justify, in Mr. Rush's own words again, "I think that a more proper date [to begin the unraveling] would be 1982."

Now these two reasons fit extremely well together for the aims of the New Left. And that aim is the Crisis that always seems to follow an Unraveling, according to Messrs Strauss and Howe.

If nothing else, the New Left are fear and crisis mongers. They have to be. How else to justify the need to always be raising taxes and never cutting taxes. And that means always creating a problem, thus a reason to increase the size and scope for the "expansion of government" that Mr. Rush and the New Left loves so well.

Just as Mr. Rush says, "Every expansion of government has been demanded to meet a particular need that did not exist before."

Voila, government, according to history and the religion of the New Left, must keep expanding. Except, of course, in the Constitutional role of the "Power To Raise and Maintain Armed Forces," that protect our freedom and liberty in this country.

So when the twenty-first century shoot-out between libertarian Mencken-like era, and the collectivist FDR-like era is settled, guess what?

It's The Second Coming for the New Left!

And they just can't wait! Our Gray Champion is coming, coming to set us free from evil libertarians. And he will come with all great power and glory so we, the anointed ones can claim our rightful inheritence born in the Great Awakening!

So the sooner the Crisis arrives, the sooner the Gray Champion arrives to empower "the wisdom of a thousand quacks. For theirs is the kingdom."

Looks pretty 3T to me. :wink:

Originally Posted by Croaker'39

Originally Posted by Jenny Genser

Anyway, I asked a mutual friend how this person was dealing with his role during all this upheaval (he was sworn in about two months before 911). My friend said that he (the Assistant Secretary of the Army) wants to essentially nuke Iraq. So much for peaceable Silents!

I always said don't put a Silent in charge of an anything but mayhem. Look at what Allen Ginsberg got started. Marilyn Monroe and so on. It all was enough to make you want bare-breasted women by candle light. Neither poetry nor pop culture has been the same since. That's all we are anyway. Please read "Howl" and tell me it doesn't apply to our times.

Silents will get you in trouble worse than swamp rats! I don't trust 'em.

________________________

That's what I've been saying for months!
Most of the posters here are too young to have had Silents for friends, or brothers or sisters.
Many of my friends when I was young....starting in teens and 20's..were Silents.

"Silents will get you in trouble worse than swamp rats!"

Right on Froggy. But I have to add...they showed me the truth about the world.
And always in a very interesting way.

Originally Posted by Marc Lamb

If there had been no Libertarian Senate candidates in recent years, Republicans would not have lost control of the chamber in 2001, and a filibuster-proof, 60-seat majority would likely be within reach.[/i]"

This POV never ceases to entertain me. What business to Repub's have assuming that those votes which went ot a LP candidate would have gone to them? Most Libertarian voters are diametrically opposed to the GOP platform on a number of issues (just as much as they oppose the Dems on other issues). When they say that they see "not a dime of difference" between the two parties, do you assume that is just posturing? Is it inconceivable to the Repubs that more than one type of opposition to themselves can be articulated?

Arg.

:-?

Originally Posted by justmom

Nah, it's not winter yet. 85 degrees in the shade for me today. :wink:

But seriously, Earthshine, that's what Marc's been saying. ....the boomers are too young, they don't control congress completely......

You'll have to read his posts, He waxes more eloquent than I.

That's eloquent-ly

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by justmom

Nah, it's not winter yet. 85 degrees in the shade for me today. :wink:

But seriously, Earthshine, that's what Marc's been saying. ....the boomers are too young, they don't control congress completely......

You'll have to read his posts, He waxes more eloquent than I.

That's eloquent-ly

Yeah, but she don't know the difference, and I ain't seen here write eloquent in any language--'cept gibberish.

Since when has an eloquently written, spoken, sung, chirped, croaked, and/or otherwise, uttered word ever fed a hungry child? After all, it's all about the children, and the "village" it takes to raise them. Right, Croak?

Speaking of children, would you care to see the actual federal dollars spent on the elderly vs. the young, Croaker? There's a reason why there are no "tears" in their eyes.

They can't afford them. :wink:

Originally Posted by Croaker'39

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by justmom

Nah, it's not winter yet. 85 degrees in the shade for me today. :wink:

But seriously, Earthshine, that's what Marc's been saying. ....the boomers are too young, they don't control congress completely......

You'll have to read his posts, He waxes more eloquent than I.

That's eloquent-ly

Yeah, but she don't know the difference, and I ain't seen here write eloquent in any language--'cept gibberish.

"Yeah" "she don't know" " I ain't seen" " I ain't seen here"
"'cept"

And that's exactly my point Kevin. Thanks for clearing it up.

Originally Posted by Croaker'39

Yeah, but she don't know the difference, and I ain't seen here write eloquent in any language--'cept gibberish.

i believe the proper word is 'cept'n


TK

A bit more on "spoiling", since I just ran into it:

http://www.webleyweb.com/tle/libe199-20021118-02.html

I quote in part:

[T]he Republican Party has, time after time, promised to support individual liberty, and promptly betrayed it. There wouldn't be a Libertarian Party if that wasn't true. On that account, if no other, we're not buddies, friends, allies, or fellow travelers. We're enemies, as surely as we're enemies to Democrats. We've always been enemies, but it was on an almost friendly basis until ...

on a 'back-on-topic' note, I point out the tone of El Neil's commentary. Clear lines are being drawn, and irreconcilable differences voiced.

Sorry, back off-topic again...

AARP STUDY:
TRACING BABY BOOMER
ATTITUDES THEN AND NOW
A Comparative Look at the Attitudes of
Baby Boomers in the 1970s and 2002

Conclusions
"Perhaps the most startling finding from our comparison of boomer attitudes across 30 years is the fact that many very important social indicators have NOT changed. With the exception of greater confidence in the Executive Branch, boomer impressions of government and business were mostly negative in the 1970s and remain so today. And although international circumstances have changed in the past 30 years, boomers still have doubts about the role and power of the U.S. on the global stage.

"As boomers continue to be the lead generation in business and government, it remains to be seen if their skepticism about these institutions will result in real changes. As a generation, boomers have been characterized as impatient. If this impatience is combined with a lack of faith in the abilities of government and business to make need changes, then the boomer generation could very well achieve the goals of the social movement it started in the late 60s and early 70s. Stay tuned. There are 76 million boomers out there
and almost the same number of the boomers? children waiting their turn to lead."


We now return you to your regular scheduled program... :wink:

Oops... that should have read:

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program...


i woodnt wont anebuddy to nit pik me on that 1 :wink: