Originally Posted by Steve61

I think this illustrates how a dictionary definition can differ from the real world application! It would be great if the dictionary definitions of these two concepts held true - just as it would be great if signing a treaty could outlaw and prevent war. (can you say Nevil Chamberlin or Kellogg-Briand) Maybe thinking good things would make good things happen in Xanadu, or Eldorado, or Oz... but, unfortunately, it doesn't work here on earth!

Steve,

Cheer up, man. Dissent still does not equal treason in the United States and in many other places in the world. There has been much dissent publically expressed about the Bush administration's approach to almost everything. There have been massive rallies all over the western world against the possible war in Iraq. These rallies have been publicized in the media so that even I, here in provincial New Mexico, know that they are happening.

I have been reading a lot of posts that indicate a certain despair about our situation in the United States on this list lately, I think it stems from a kind of perfectionism which reasons thus: If something is not perfect then it is completely bad and beyond repair. This is a false dichotomy that creates despair and causes people to sit back and do nothing about the problems we do have.

Yes, there are people who accuse dissenters of lack of patriotism. It is our job as citizens not to allow this kind of statement to go unchallenged!
No, we in the United States have not achieved a perfect and ideal society. We never will. It is, rather, our job to keep striving toward our ideals. We will encounter challenges on the road. So what! Nothing worth doing comes easy! As my Bubbe used to say: "Life is not meant to be easy-- life is meant to be life."

Or to put it in the words of someone who faced an even darker time than we do now: "The work is great and the hour is getting on toward evening. The taskmaster's hand is heavy. But it is not upon us to complete the task and neither are we free to desist from it."
Pirke Avot

Originally Posted by elilevin

As my Bubbe used to say:

your what? 8)


TK

Originally Posted by elilevin

As my Bubbe used to say:

your what? 8)


TK

Originally Posted by elilevin

As my Bubbe used to say:

your what? 8)


TK

Originally Posted by TrollKing

Originally Posted by elilevin

As my Bubbe used to say:

your what? 8)


TK

My grandmother.
:wink:

Originally Posted by TrollKing

Originally Posted by elilevin

As my Bubbe used to say:

your what? 8)


TK

My grandmother.
:wink:

Originally Posted by TrollKing

Originally Posted by elilevin

As my Bubbe used to say:

your what? 8)


TK

My grandmother.
:wink:

Originally Posted by elilevin

[My grandmother.
:wink:

ah.... i figured it was something like that.

i like grandmas. they rock.

or at least mine did. not so sure about my daughters'. ;-)


TK

Originally Posted by elilevin

[My grandmother.
:wink:

ah.... i figured it was something like that.

i like grandmas. they rock.

or at least mine did. not so sure about my daughters'. ;-)


TK

Originally Posted by elilevin

[My grandmother.
:wink:

ah.... i figured it was something like that.

i like grandmas. they rock.

or at least mine did. not so sure about my daughters'. ;-)


TK

Originally Posted by TrollKing

i like grandmas. they rock.

or at least mine did. not so sure about my daughters'. ;-)


TK

They also cook! I am using Bubbe's recipe for mushrooms for our dinner tommorrow.

We must count our blessings. We are faced with challenges yes! This 4T will not be easy--they never are. But here we are ready to sit down and eat our Turkey in a free country with wealth our European grandparents only dreamed of! Not bad. And of course, as Bubbe would say, we have to share our blessings as well.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Originally Posted by TrollKing

i like grandmas. they rock.

or at least mine did. not so sure about my daughters'. ;-)


TK

They also cook! I am using Bubbe's recipe for mushrooms for our dinner tommorrow.

We must count our blessings. We are faced with challenges yes! This 4T will not be easy--they never are. But here we are ready to sit down and eat our Turkey in a free country with wealth our European grandparents only dreamed of! Not bad. And of course, as Bubbe would say, we have to share our blessings as well.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Originally Posted by TrollKing

i like grandmas. they rock.

or at least mine did. not so sure about my daughters'. ;-)


TK

They also cook! I am using Bubbe's recipe for mushrooms for our dinner tommorrow.

We must count our blessings. We are faced with challenges yes! This 4T will not be easy--they never are. But here we are ready to sit down and eat our Turkey in a free country with wealth our European grandparents only dreamed of! Not bad. And of course, as Bubbe would say, we have to share our blessings as well.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Or as I quoted to much greater length over in the Military topic,

What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one's unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defense. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted, and anyone who objected to them became a suspect.

That from Thucydides, writing 2,400 years ago.

Or as I quoted to much greater length over in the Military topic,

What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one's unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defense. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted, and anyone who objected to them became a suspect.

That from Thucydides, writing 2,400 years ago.

Or as I quoted to much greater length over in the Military topic,

What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one's unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defense. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted, and anyone who objected to them became a suspect.

That from Thucydides, writing 2,400 years ago.

Originally Posted by PaulD'50

Or as I quoted to much greater length over in the Military topic,

What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one's unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defense. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted, and anyone who objected to them became a suspect.

That from Thucydides, writing 2,400 years ago.

And a 4T is a hothouse environment for such a mentality to thrive in.

Originally Posted by PaulD'50

Or as I quoted to much greater length over in the Military topic,

What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one's unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defense. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted, and anyone who objected to them became a suspect.

That from Thucydides, writing 2,400 years ago.

And a 4T is a hothouse environment for such a mentality to thrive in.

Originally Posted by PaulD'50

Or as I quoted to much greater length over in the Military topic,

What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one's unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defense. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted, and anyone who objected to them became a suspect.

That from Thucydides, writing 2,400 years ago.

And a 4T is a hothouse environment for such a mentality to thrive in.

AWESOME! So old it's new again.

Okay, finally we've come across the full arc I've been hoping we'd travel in this thread. You're right jds1958xg, this is exactly how we're supposed to act in a 4T. IMHO, it also debunks the claims of some that the coming Crisis will thankfully (for them) solidify every lame utopian concept of the Consciousness Revolution. These people are are trying hard to convince us to fight these tendancies. The question is: Do we embrace our destiny as described by Thucydides, do we accept our positions in the saeculum and try and alter the more unpalatable aspects of that desitny to steer the 4T to a better present and future, or do we fight it tooth and nail while holding the peace sign in the air and pleading for humanity to "Save The Earth" from ourselves?

AWESOME! So old it's new again.

Okay, finally we've come across the full arc I've been hoping we'd travel in this thread. You're right jds1958xg, this is exactly how we're supposed to act in a 4T. IMHO, it also debunks the claims of some that the coming Crisis will thankfully (for them) solidify every lame utopian concept of the Consciousness Revolution. These people are are trying hard to convince us to fight these tendancies. The question is: Do we embrace our destiny as described by Thucydides, do we accept our positions in the saeculum and try and alter the more unpalatable aspects of that desitny to steer the 4T to a better present and future, or do we fight it tooth and nail while holding the peace sign in the air and pleading for humanity to "Save The Earth" from ourselves?

AWESOME! So old it's new again.

Okay, finally we've come across the full arc I've been hoping we'd travel in this thread. You're right jds1958xg, this is exactly how we're supposed to act in a 4T. IMHO, it also debunks the claims of some that the coming Crisis will thankfully (for them) solidify every lame utopian concept of the Consciousness Revolution. These people are are trying hard to convince us to fight these tendancies. The question is: Do we embrace our destiny as described by Thucydides, do we accept our positions in the saeculum and try and alter the more unpalatable aspects of that desitny to steer the 4T to a better present and future, or do we fight it tooth and nail while holding the peace sign in the air and pleading for humanity to "Save The Earth" from ourselves?

Originally Posted by Chris '68

do we accept our positions in the saeculum and try and alter the more unpalatable aspects of that desitny to steer the 4T to a better present and future, or do we fight it tooth and nail while holding the peace sign in the air and pleading for humanity to "Save The Earth" from ourselves?

can we not do the former without (childishly) branding those who do the latter as traitors? does it not suffice to say "they're wrong"?


TK

Originally Posted by Chris '68

do we accept our positions in the saeculum and try and alter the more unpalatable aspects of that desitny to steer the 4T to a better present and future, or do we fight it tooth and nail while holding the peace sign in the air and pleading for humanity to "Save The Earth" from ourselves?

can we not do the former without (childishly) branding those who do the latter as traitors? does it not suffice to say "they're wrong"?


TK

Originally Posted by Chris '68

do we accept our positions in the saeculum and try and alter the more unpalatable aspects of that desitny to steer the 4T to a better present and future, or do we fight it tooth and nail while holding the peace sign in the air and pleading for humanity to "Save The Earth" from ourselves?

can we not do the former without (childishly) branding those who do the latter as traitors? does it not suffice to say "they're wrong"?


TK