Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 188







Post#4676 at 11-27-2002 03:25 PM by Evan Anderson [at joined Mar 2002 #posts 400]
---
11-27-2002, 03:25 PM #4676
Join Date
Mar 2002
Posts
400

Heh, heh...

The last two posts (before TrollKing) are funny, in the sense that the excellent Thucydides quote was originally brought up as a counterpoint to the more hawkish thoughts, only to be adopted as a rallying cry...

Oh, well...

------------------------------------------------------------

The Battle Hymn of the Republic
--------------------------------------

(Julia Ward Howe)

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored,
He has loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword
His truth is marching on.

Refrain:
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps
l can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps
His day is marching on.

(Refrain)

I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnish`d rows of steel,
"As ye deal with my contemners, So with you my grace shall deal;"
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel
Since God is marching on.

(Refrain)

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

(Refrain)

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

(Refrain)







Post#4677 at 11-27-2002 03:25 PM by Evan Anderson [at joined Mar 2002 #posts 400]
---
11-27-2002, 03:25 PM #4677
Join Date
Mar 2002
Posts
400

Heh, heh...

The last two posts (before TrollKing) are funny, in the sense that the excellent Thucydides quote was originally brought up as a counterpoint to the more hawkish thoughts, only to be adopted as a rallying cry...

Oh, well...

------------------------------------------------------------

The Battle Hymn of the Republic
--------------------------------------

(Julia Ward Howe)

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored,
He has loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword
His truth is marching on.

Refrain:
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps
l can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps
His day is marching on.

(Refrain)

I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnish`d rows of steel,
"As ye deal with my contemners, So with you my grace shall deal;"
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel
Since God is marching on.

(Refrain)

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

(Refrain)

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

(Refrain)







Post#4678 at 11-27-2002 03:25 PM by Evan Anderson [at joined Mar 2002 #posts 400]
---
11-27-2002, 03:25 PM #4678
Join Date
Mar 2002
Posts
400

Heh, heh...

The last two posts (before TrollKing) are funny, in the sense that the excellent Thucydides quote was originally brought up as a counterpoint to the more hawkish thoughts, only to be adopted as a rallying cry...

Oh, well...

------------------------------------------------------------

The Battle Hymn of the Republic
--------------------------------------

(Julia Ward Howe)

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored,
He has loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword
His truth is marching on.

Refrain:
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps
l can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps
His day is marching on.

(Refrain)

I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnish`d rows of steel,
"As ye deal with my contemners, So with you my grace shall deal;"
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel
Since God is marching on.

(Refrain)

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

(Refrain)

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

(Refrain)







Post#4679 at 11-27-2002 03:30 PM by [at joined #posts ]
---
11-27-2002, 03:30 PM #4679
Guest

From the Alexa web traffic report:


[img]http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?w=379&h=216&r=1y&u=fourthturning.com/forums/search.php?show_results=topics&search_author=*&sor t_by=0&sort_dir=DESC&search_time=2&u=[/img]

3 mos. Avg. 635,117
6 mos. Trend 283,025 (down)


I recall the days when 30-40 people were surfing this site, at any given moment. Today there are typically 2-6.

Conclusion: What a boring 4T, huh?







Post#4680 at 11-27-2002 03:30 PM by [at joined #posts ]
---
11-27-2002, 03:30 PM #4680
Guest

From the Alexa web traffic report:


[img]http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?w=379&h=216&r=1y&u=fourthturning.com/forums/search.php?show_results=topics&search_author=*&sor t_by=0&sort_dir=DESC&search_time=2&u=[/img]

3 mos. Avg. 635,117
6 mos. Trend 283,025 (down)


I recall the days when 30-40 people were surfing this site, at any given moment. Today there are typically 2-6.

Conclusion: What a boring 4T, huh?







Post#4681 at 11-27-2002 03:30 PM by [at joined #posts ]
---
11-27-2002, 03:30 PM #4681
Guest

From the Alexa web traffic report:


[img]http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?w=379&h=216&r=1y&u=fourthturning.com/forums/search.php?show_results=topics&search_author=*&sor t_by=0&sort_dir=DESC&search_time=2&u=[/img]

3 mos. Avg. 635,117
6 mos. Trend 283,025 (down)


I recall the days when 30-40 people were surfing this site, at any given moment. Today there are typically 2-6.

Conclusion: What a boring 4T, huh?







Post#4682 at 11-27-2002 03:30 PM by Steve61 [at Naples, FL joined Nov 2002 #posts 31]
---
11-27-2002, 03:30 PM #4682
Join Date
Nov 2002
Location
Naples, FL
Posts
31

Quote Originally Posted by TrollKing
Quote Originally Posted by Steve61
I think this illustrates how a dictionary definition can differ from the real world application! It would be great if the dictionary definitions of these two concepts held true - just as it would be great if signing a treaty could outlaw and prevent war. (can you say Nevil Chamberlin or Kellogg-Briand) Maybe thinking good things would make good things happen in Xanadu, or Eldorado, or Oz... but, unfortunately, it doesn't work here on earth!
are you asserting that, in the real world, dissent = treason?

because if you are, pardon my french, but that sh*t's f***ed up.


TK
What I'm' saying is that sometimes there is a thin line between the perceptions of the two, and the way society handles them.

Yes... dissent is a good thing - it's folly to try to debate without an antagonist or adversary to debate against - from any perspective. But, to adopt the words, attitudes, and tactics of your adversary in an attempt to advance your position can have the affect of blurring the line that divides the debate, and give the observers the impression that you are actually for the position you are supposedly against. That is why I included justmom's post of Al Gore and Osama quotes. Those quotes are very similar in who they are blaming and why, and that is my point exactly.

Collegial/scholarly debates are defined by selecting an issue and then selecting parties to argue pro or con, for or against that issue. The debate only occurs because of the polarity of the adversaries. This is the foundation of our Judicial system, our political two party system, and the basis of any true debate. Now transfer this concept to the current domestic debates... Liberal -vs- Conservative, Democrat -vs- Republican, pro-life -vs- pro abortion, hawks -vs- doves, whatever... the system works. But when you add to the debate (Al Gore -vs- GWB, for example) an outside component - a collective enemy, which I hope we can agree that Osama and his ilk represent - and you skew the perception of those observing the debate. Thus when anyone uses the words, attitudes, and tactics of our national enemy to advance their domestic debate, they are percieved - rightly or wrongly - as being against our national intrests. In other words - unpatriotic!

Whether by accident or design, Al Gore, et al, are not just adopting the arguments of an opponent, which is what Dems did and allowed the Repubs to co-opt many of the issues for themselves (and thereby, the election) - but in this case, they are adopting the arguments, words, attitudes, and tactics of our collective enemy! To the public, when you adopt arguments of the enemy, you side with the enemy. This is how an act of dissent can become perceived as an act of treason.

Using every argument possible in support of your issue is concidered a good debate tactic, using your opponents arguments against him is even better, but adopting the arguments of a collective enemy is potential suicide.







Post#4683 at 11-27-2002 03:30 PM by Steve61 [at Naples, FL joined Nov 2002 #posts 31]
---
11-27-2002, 03:30 PM #4683
Join Date
Nov 2002
Location
Naples, FL
Posts
31

Quote Originally Posted by TrollKing
Quote Originally Posted by Steve61
I think this illustrates how a dictionary definition can differ from the real world application! It would be great if the dictionary definitions of these two concepts held true - just as it would be great if signing a treaty could outlaw and prevent war. (can you say Nevil Chamberlin or Kellogg-Briand) Maybe thinking good things would make good things happen in Xanadu, or Eldorado, or Oz... but, unfortunately, it doesn't work here on earth!
are you asserting that, in the real world, dissent = treason?

because if you are, pardon my french, but that sh*t's f***ed up.


TK
What I'm' saying is that sometimes there is a thin line between the perceptions of the two, and the way society handles them.

Yes... dissent is a good thing - it's folly to try to debate without an antagonist or adversary to debate against - from any perspective. But, to adopt the words, attitudes, and tactics of your adversary in an attempt to advance your position can have the affect of blurring the line that divides the debate, and give the observers the impression that you are actually for the position you are supposedly against. That is why I included justmom's post of Al Gore and Osama quotes. Those quotes are very similar in who they are blaming and why, and that is my point exactly.

Collegial/scholarly debates are defined by selecting an issue and then selecting parties to argue pro or con, for or against that issue. The debate only occurs because of the polarity of the adversaries. This is the foundation of our Judicial system, our political two party system, and the basis of any true debate. Now transfer this concept to the current domestic debates... Liberal -vs- Conservative, Democrat -vs- Republican, pro-life -vs- pro abortion, hawks -vs- doves, whatever... the system works. But when you add to the debate (Al Gore -vs- GWB, for example) an outside component - a collective enemy, which I hope we can agree that Osama and his ilk represent - and you skew the perception of those observing the debate. Thus when anyone uses the words, attitudes, and tactics of our national enemy to advance their domestic debate, they are percieved - rightly or wrongly - as being against our national intrests. In other words - unpatriotic!

Whether by accident or design, Al Gore, et al, are not just adopting the arguments of an opponent, which is what Dems did and allowed the Repubs to co-opt many of the issues for themselves (and thereby, the election) - but in this case, they are adopting the arguments, words, attitudes, and tactics of our collective enemy! To the public, when you adopt arguments of the enemy, you side with the enemy. This is how an act of dissent can become perceived as an act of treason.

Using every argument possible in support of your issue is concidered a good debate tactic, using your opponents arguments against him is even better, but adopting the arguments of a collective enemy is potential suicide.







Post#4684 at 11-27-2002 03:30 PM by Steve61 [at Naples, FL joined Nov 2002 #posts 31]
---
11-27-2002, 03:30 PM #4684
Join Date
Nov 2002
Location
Naples, FL
Posts
31

Quote Originally Posted by TrollKing
Quote Originally Posted by Steve61
I think this illustrates how a dictionary definition can differ from the real world application! It would be great if the dictionary definitions of these two concepts held true - just as it would be great if signing a treaty could outlaw and prevent war. (can you say Nevil Chamberlin or Kellogg-Briand) Maybe thinking good things would make good things happen in Xanadu, or Eldorado, or Oz... but, unfortunately, it doesn't work here on earth!
are you asserting that, in the real world, dissent = treason?

because if you are, pardon my french, but that sh*t's f***ed up.


TK
What I'm' saying is that sometimes there is a thin line between the perceptions of the two, and the way society handles them.

Yes... dissent is a good thing - it's folly to try to debate without an antagonist or adversary to debate against - from any perspective. But, to adopt the words, attitudes, and tactics of your adversary in an attempt to advance your position can have the affect of blurring the line that divides the debate, and give the observers the impression that you are actually for the position you are supposedly against. That is why I included justmom's post of Al Gore and Osama quotes. Those quotes are very similar in who they are blaming and why, and that is my point exactly.

Collegial/scholarly debates are defined by selecting an issue and then selecting parties to argue pro or con, for or against that issue. The debate only occurs because of the polarity of the adversaries. This is the foundation of our Judicial system, our political two party system, and the basis of any true debate. Now transfer this concept to the current domestic debates... Liberal -vs- Conservative, Democrat -vs- Republican, pro-life -vs- pro abortion, hawks -vs- doves, whatever... the system works. But when you add to the debate (Al Gore -vs- GWB, for example) an outside component - a collective enemy, which I hope we can agree that Osama and his ilk represent - and you skew the perception of those observing the debate. Thus when anyone uses the words, attitudes, and tactics of our national enemy to advance their domestic debate, they are percieved - rightly or wrongly - as being against our national intrests. In other words - unpatriotic!

Whether by accident or design, Al Gore, et al, are not just adopting the arguments of an opponent, which is what Dems did and allowed the Repubs to co-opt many of the issues for themselves (and thereby, the election) - but in this case, they are adopting the arguments, words, attitudes, and tactics of our collective enemy! To the public, when you adopt arguments of the enemy, you side with the enemy. This is how an act of dissent can become perceived as an act of treason.

Using every argument possible in support of your issue is concidered a good debate tactic, using your opponents arguments against him is even better, but adopting the arguments of a collective enemy is potential suicide.







Post#4685 at 11-27-2002 03:38 PM by Evan Anderson [at joined Mar 2002 #posts 400]
---
11-27-2002, 03:38 PM #4685
Join Date
Mar 2002
Posts
400

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
I recall the days when 30-40 people were surfing this site, at any given moment. Today there are typically 2-6.

Conclusion: What a boring 4T, huh?
Or maybe dicking around in chat rooms is a 3T thing, and we're all busy doing 4T stuff...







Post#4686 at 11-27-2002 03:38 PM by Evan Anderson [at joined Mar 2002 #posts 400]
---
11-27-2002, 03:38 PM #4686
Join Date
Mar 2002
Posts
400

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
I recall the days when 30-40 people were surfing this site, at any given moment. Today there are typically 2-6.

Conclusion: What a boring 4T, huh?
Or maybe dicking around in chat rooms is a 3T thing, and we're all busy doing 4T stuff...







Post#4687 at 11-27-2002 03:38 PM by Evan Anderson [at joined Mar 2002 #posts 400]
---
11-27-2002, 03:38 PM #4687
Join Date
Mar 2002
Posts
400

Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
I recall the days when 30-40 people were surfing this site, at any given moment. Today there are typically 2-6.

Conclusion: What a boring 4T, huh?
Or maybe dicking around in chat rooms is a 3T thing, and we're all busy doing 4T stuff...







Post#4688 at 11-27-2002 04:21 PM by Opusaug [at Ft. Myers, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 7]
---
11-27-2002, 04:21 PM #4688
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Ft. Myers, Florida
Posts
7

Quote Originally Posted by TrollKing
Quote Originally Posted by Chris '68
do we accept our positions in the saeculum and try and alter the more unpalatable aspects of that desitny to steer the 4T to a better present and future, or do we fight it tooth and nail while holding the peace sign in the air and pleading for humanity to "Save The Earth" from ourselves?
can we not do the former without (childishly) branding those who do the latter as traitors? does it not suffice to say "they're wrong"?
Depends on if they're really traitors or not.

Quote Originally Posted by Chris '68
Tell me how to reliably tell the difference and I'll enthusiastically stop accusing one of being the other.
I'm waiting.







Post#4689 at 11-27-2002 04:21 PM by Opusaug [at Ft. Myers, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 7]
---
11-27-2002, 04:21 PM #4689
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Ft. Myers, Florida
Posts
7

Quote Originally Posted by TrollKing
Quote Originally Posted by Chris '68
do we accept our positions in the saeculum and try and alter the more unpalatable aspects of that desitny to steer the 4T to a better present and future, or do we fight it tooth and nail while holding the peace sign in the air and pleading for humanity to "Save The Earth" from ourselves?
can we not do the former without (childishly) branding those who do the latter as traitors? does it not suffice to say "they're wrong"?
Depends on if they're really traitors or not.

Quote Originally Posted by Chris '68
Tell me how to reliably tell the difference and I'll enthusiastically stop accusing one of being the other.
I'm waiting.







Post#4690 at 11-27-2002 04:21 PM by Opusaug [at Ft. Myers, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 7]
---
11-27-2002, 04:21 PM #4690
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Ft. Myers, Florida
Posts
7

Quote Originally Posted by TrollKing
Quote Originally Posted by Chris '68
do we accept our positions in the saeculum and try and alter the more unpalatable aspects of that desitny to steer the 4T to a better present and future, or do we fight it tooth and nail while holding the peace sign in the air and pleading for humanity to "Save The Earth" from ourselves?
can we not do the former without (childishly) branding those who do the latter as traitors? does it not suffice to say "they're wrong"?
Depends on if they're really traitors or not.

Quote Originally Posted by Chris '68
Tell me how to reliably tell the difference and I'll enthusiastically stop accusing one of being the other.
I'm waiting.







Post#4691 at 11-27-2002 04:37 PM by PaulD'50 [at joined Jul 2001 #posts 27]
---
11-27-2002, 04:37 PM #4691
Join Date
Jul 2001
Posts
27

Thucydides and interpretations

Thucydides was a military general and historian, not a philosopher or fortune-teller. In that passage he was reporting what was going on in the civil war in Corcyra. Whlie not an eye-witness to every event, he did spend several years travelling and interviewing people who were eye-witnesses.

The message I take from the passage I quoted was that the two sides had stopped listening to each other.
[/i]







Post#4692 at 11-27-2002 04:37 PM by PaulD'50 [at joined Jul 2001 #posts 27]
---
11-27-2002, 04:37 PM #4692
Join Date
Jul 2001
Posts
27

Thucydides and interpretations

Thucydides was a military general and historian, not a philosopher or fortune-teller. In that passage he was reporting what was going on in the civil war in Corcyra. Whlie not an eye-witness to every event, he did spend several years travelling and interviewing people who were eye-witnesses.

The message I take from the passage I quoted was that the two sides had stopped listening to each other.
[/i]







Post#4693 at 11-27-2002 04:37 PM by PaulD'50 [at joined Jul 2001 #posts 27]
---
11-27-2002, 04:37 PM #4693
Join Date
Jul 2001
Posts
27

Thucydides and interpretations

Thucydides was a military general and historian, not a philosopher or fortune-teller. In that passage he was reporting what was going on in the civil war in Corcyra. Whlie not an eye-witness to every event, he did spend several years travelling and interviewing people who were eye-witnesses.

The message I take from the passage I quoted was that the two sides had stopped listening to each other.
[/i]







Post#4694 at 11-27-2002 04:44 PM by TrollKing [at Portland, OR -- b. 1968 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,257]
---
11-27-2002, 04:44 PM #4694
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Portland, OR -- b. 1968
Posts
1,257

Quote Originally Posted by Chris '68
I'm waiting.
wait no longer.


TK







Post#4695 at 11-27-2002 04:44 PM by TrollKing [at Portland, OR -- b. 1968 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,257]
---
11-27-2002, 04:44 PM #4695
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Portland, OR -- b. 1968
Posts
1,257

Quote Originally Posted by Chris '68
I'm waiting.
wait no longer.


TK







Post#4696 at 11-27-2002 04:44 PM by TrollKing [at Portland, OR -- b. 1968 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,257]
---
11-27-2002, 04:44 PM #4696
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Portland, OR -- b. 1968
Posts
1,257

Quote Originally Posted by Chris '68
I'm waiting.
wait no longer.


TK







Post#4697 at 11-27-2002 05:04 PM by [at joined #posts ]
---
11-27-2002, 05:04 PM #4697
Guest

Quote Originally Posted by John Wayne
Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
I recall the days when 30-40 people were surfing this site, at any given moment. Today there are typically 2-6.

Conclusion: What a boring 4T, huh?
Or maybe dicking around in chat rooms is a 3T thing, and we're all busy doing 4T stuff...
We have yet to make the fourth turn.







Post#4698 at 11-27-2002 05:04 PM by [at joined #posts ]
---
11-27-2002, 05:04 PM #4698
Guest

Quote Originally Posted by John Wayne
Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
I recall the days when 30-40 people were surfing this site, at any given moment. Today there are typically 2-6.

Conclusion: What a boring 4T, huh?
Or maybe dicking around in chat rooms is a 3T thing, and we're all busy doing 4T stuff...
We have yet to make the fourth turn.







Post#4699 at 11-27-2002 05:04 PM by [at joined #posts ]
---
11-27-2002, 05:04 PM #4699
Guest

Quote Originally Posted by John Wayne
Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
I recall the days when 30-40 people were surfing this site, at any given moment. Today there are typically 2-6.

Conclusion: What a boring 4T, huh?
Or maybe dicking around in chat rooms is a 3T thing, and we're all busy doing 4T stuff...
We have yet to make the fourth turn.







Post#4700 at 11-27-2002 05:06 PM by Opusaug [at Ft. Myers, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 7]
---
11-27-2002, 05:06 PM #4700
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Ft. Myers, Florida
Posts
7

To summarize, those who dissent seek to voice an opinion, while those who commit treason knowingly inflict damage on their own society.
So when does David Bonior go on trial?
-----------------------------------------