Originally Posted by Brian Rush

Chris:

Since I'm now simply silly with paranoia, am I excused from being tyrannical?

:lol:

Touche, sir!

But what you seemingly fail to comprehend sir, is that without those "sins" there would be no children.

Oh, I don't fail to comprehend it. But the sin did occur, and thus the children do exist.

Besides, the nature of the sin was an exertion of improper control over another person's life, not the creation of new human beings. It is in the same category, morally, as not allowing your wife her own checkbook, or keeping her chained to the bed.

By that same pseudologic, a police officer preventing Andrea Yates from killing her children would be morally equivalent to a spousal abuser.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

Chris:

Since I'm now simply silly with paranoia, am I excused from being tyrannical?

:lol:

Touche, sir!

But what you seemingly fail to comprehend sir, is that without those "sins" there would be no children.

Oh, I don't fail to comprehend it. But the sin did occur, and thus the children do exist.

Besides, the nature of the sin was an exertion of improper control over another person's life, not the creation of new human beings. It is in the same category, morally, as not allowing your wife her own checkbook, or keeping her chained to the bed.

By that same pseudologic, a police officer preventing Andrea Yates from killing her children would be morally equivalent to a spousal abuser.

Originally Posted by Chris'68

You have no clue what I might have done to make it my decision, sir. But were I to tell you, would you feel inclined to have me arrested for violating her civil rights? And to make amends for my villainy, perhaps we should impose the Exclusionary Rule, and excise the fruit of the poisoned tree?

I feel certain Brian himself would not, but there are most certainly abortion supporters who quietly would wish just that.

Originally Posted by Chris'68

You have no clue what I might have done to make it my decision, sir. But were I to tell you, would you feel inclined to have me arrested for violating her civil rights? And to make amends for my villainy, perhaps we should impose the Exclusionary Rule, and excise the fruit of the poisoned tree?

I feel certain Brian himself would not, but there are most certainly abortion supporters who quietly would wish just that.

Originally Posted by Chris'68

Originally Posted by TrollKing

Originally Posted by Chris'68

....the two children I didn't let her abort don't think it's too bad.

didn't let her abort? i don't mean to pry, but did you really mean that? because it implies that that's what would have happened had you not stopped it.

You understood me perfectly the first time I said it, TK. I wasn't implying anything - I'm telling you flat-out.

"Well, since... <insert excuse here> ...I could just get an abortion...."

I heard this routine at least five times during each pregnancy. And just in case there are some out there who think I "misunderstood" or who think "she said 'could', not 'should' or 'will'...", this is the same woman who, a couple of years later and after I'd spent 6 months in exile following her change of the locks, told me to "come get the kids."

"But I'm not ready yet - I still don't have a place of my own and I'm staying in my parents' small house in Florida." (We're originally from NJ.)

"Come get them, or I'll get rid of them."

Susan Smith had killed her two children (in North Carolina?) the month before.

(me, irritated) "What are you going to do, strap them into a Jeep and roll them into a lake?"

"I just might."

I was on a plane and in NJ within 24 hrs.

I'll admit in retrospect that my judge of prospective mates was pitiful, but even if I could have foreseen these circumstances (or worse), I've never been fond of letting other people relieve me of the pleasures, pains and responsibilities of being a parent to those two "clumps of cells".

The great thing about S&H is that it brings into sharp focus that any discussion of history, sociology, economics, etc. isn't just an obscure philosophical conversation. The wheel of time turns, and we are all teeth on the gears.

Chris, I don't have the words to express my respect for you.

Originally Posted by Chris'68

Originally Posted by TrollKing

Originally Posted by Chris'68

....the two children I didn't let her abort don't think it's too bad.

didn't let her abort? i don't mean to pry, but did you really mean that? because it implies that that's what would have happened had you not stopped it.

You understood me perfectly the first time I said it, TK. I wasn't implying anything - I'm telling you flat-out.

"Well, since... <insert excuse here> ...I could just get an abortion...."

I heard this routine at least five times during each pregnancy. And just in case there are some out there who think I "misunderstood" or who think "she said 'could', not 'should' or 'will'...", this is the same woman who, a couple of years later and after I'd spent 6 months in exile following her change of the locks, told me to "come get the kids."

"But I'm not ready yet - I still don't have a place of my own and I'm staying in my parents' small house in Florida." (We're originally from NJ.)

"Come get them, or I'll get rid of them."

Susan Smith had killed her two children (in North Carolina?) the month before.

(me, irritated) "What are you going to do, strap them into a Jeep and roll them into a lake?"

"I just might."

I was on a plane and in NJ within 24 hrs.

I'll admit in retrospect that my judge of prospective mates was pitiful, but even if I could have foreseen these circumstances (or worse), I've never been fond of letting other people relieve me of the pleasures, pains and responsibilities of being a parent to those two "clumps of cells".

The great thing about S&H is that it brings into sharp focus that any discussion of history, sociology, economics, etc. isn't just an obscure philosophical conversation. The wheel of time turns, and we are all teeth on the gears.

Chris, I don't have the words to express my respect for you.

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

By that same pseudologic, a police officer preventing Andrea Yates from killing her children would be morally equivalent to a spousal abuser.

huh? how the hell did you get that?

connect the dots for me, here....


TK

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

By that same pseudologic, a police officer preventing Andrea Yates from killing her children would be morally equivalent to a spousal abuser.

huh? how the hell did you get that?

connect the dots for me, here....


TK

PlLEASE stay on topic ...

I joined this thread to talk about S&H and their ideas, not to listen to pseudo moralistic arguments about abortion. Please keep to the topic and save the other discussion for another place. It is very distracting as well as disrespectful of the author's intent. Thank you ....

PlLEASE stay on topic ...

I joined this thread to talk about S&H and their ideas, not to listen to pseudo moralistic arguments about abortion. Please keep to the topic and save the other discussion for another place. It is very distracting as well as disrespectful of the author's intent. Thank you ....

Originally Posted by mjkaminski

PlLEASE stay on topic ...

I joined this thread to talk about S&H and their ideas, not to listen to pseudo moralistic arguments about abortion. Please keep to the topic and save the other discussion for another place. It is very distracting as well as disrespectful of the author's intent. Thank you ....

They are on topic and engaged in a discussion which began on this thread before you made your post. They are responding to other people's posts on this thread, not yours.

Originally Posted by mjkaminski

PlLEASE stay on topic ...

I joined this thread to talk about S&H and their ideas, not to listen to pseudo moralistic arguments about abortion. Please keep to the topic and save the other discussion for another place. It is very distracting as well as disrespectful of the author's intent. Thank you ....

They are on topic and engaged in a discussion which began on this thread before you made your post. They are responding to other people's posts on this thread, not yours.

Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton

Originally Posted by mjkaminski

PlLEASE stay on topic ...

I joined this thread to talk about S&H and their ideas, not to listen to pseudo moralistic arguments about abortion. Please keep to the topic and save the other discussion for another place. It is very distracting as well as disrespectful of the author's intent. Thank you ....

They are on topic and engaged in a discussion which began on this thread before you made your post. They are responding to other people's posts on this thread, not yours.

I can't think of very much that could be off-topic in this thread. We're supposed to be supplying "evidence that we're in a fourth turning", and since S&H's theories are based on the way generations act and react to one another, we're all just supplying evidence by interacting with one another.

I find this thread most instructive - especially when I keep my mouth shut and listen. 8)

Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton

Originally Posted by mjkaminski

PlLEASE stay on topic ...

I joined this thread to talk about S&H and their ideas, not to listen to pseudo moralistic arguments about abortion. Please keep to the topic and save the other discussion for another place. It is very distracting as well as disrespectful of the author's intent. Thank you ....

They are on topic and engaged in a discussion which began on this thread before you made your post. They are responding to other people's posts on this thread, not yours.

I can't think of very much that could be off-topic in this thread. We're supposed to be supplying "evidence that we're in a fourth turning", and since S&H's theories are based on the way generations act and react to one another, we're all just supplying evidence by interacting with one another.

I find this thread most instructive - especially when I keep my mouth shut and listen. 8)

Not off topic? Endless he said/she said is boring at best. I am well aware that these remarks were not intended for me. What I was commenting on was their relevance (or irrelevance) to the author's choice of topic for this thread. The 15th or 17th follow-up to an irrelevant remark is still an irrelevant remark. Quantity does not improve its quality. I thought this was a grown-up discussion of ideas, not a sophmoric bull session. Enjoy yourselves. I'm going to go find out where the grown-ups are hanging out.

Not off topic? Endless he said/she said is boring at best. I am well aware that these remarks were not intended for me. What I was commenting on was their relevance (or irrelevance) to the author's choice of topic for this thread. The 15th or 17th follow-up to an irrelevant remark is still an irrelevant remark. Quantity does not improve its quality. I thought this was a grown-up discussion of ideas, not a sophmoric bull session. Enjoy yourselves. I'm going to go find out where the grown-ups are hanging out.

Originally Posted by mjkaminski

Not off topic? Endless he said/she said is boring at best. I am well aware that these remarks were not intended for me. What I was commenting on was their relevance (or irrelevance) to the author's choice of topic for this thread. The 15th or 17th follow-up to an irrelevant remark is still an irrelevant remark. Quantity does not improve its quality. I thought this was a grown-up discussion of ideas, not a sophmoric bull session.

Thread topic (copied from top of thread):

Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning


According to S&H:

3T = Culture Wars
4T = more important stuff
3T/4T cusp = shift to more important stuff


There really is no valid reason why these other guys cannot continue to discuss their cultural issues and the current significance thereof while other people discuss with you whatever it is you are discussing. However there is a button for starting a new thread and, if you are so inclined, you can try that and the Culture Warriors should not follow you to your new thread. There is no guarantee however that someone will not inadvertently steer your new thread off on some other unforeseen tangent. It happens all the time, purely unintentionally, with no disrespect intended. We live with it. It's not the end of the world.

Enjoy yourselves. I'm going to go find out where the grown-ups are hanging out.

OK. You have permission so long as you share your toys. :grin:

Originally Posted by mjkaminski

Not off topic? Endless he said/she said is boring at best. I am well aware that these remarks were not intended for me. What I was commenting on was their relevance (or irrelevance) to the author's choice of topic for this thread. The 15th or 17th follow-up to an irrelevant remark is still an irrelevant remark. Quantity does not improve its quality. I thought this was a grown-up discussion of ideas, not a sophmoric bull session.

Thread topic (copied from top of thread):

Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning


According to S&H:

3T = Culture Wars
4T = more important stuff
3T/4T cusp = shift to more important stuff


There really is no valid reason why these other guys cannot continue to discuss their cultural issues and the current significance thereof while other people discuss with you whatever it is you are discussing. However there is a button for starting a new thread and, if you are so inclined, you can try that and the Culture Warriors should not follow you to your new thread. There is no guarantee however that someone will not inadvertently steer your new thread off on some other unforeseen tangent. It happens all the time, purely unintentionally, with no disrespect intended. We live with it. It's not the end of the world.

Enjoy yourselves. I'm going to go find out where the grown-ups are hanging out.

OK. You have permission so long as you share your toys. :grin:

Originally Posted by Jesse Manoogian

[We don't have any people who eat a lot of meat and forgo vegetables today, do we? And if there were they'd probably be viewed as politically incorrect troglodytes by liberals.

Actually, my Division Director (a 51-year-old core Boomer) enjoys meat and the only vegetable he consumes is potato. He also drinks Coke for breakfast instead of the more typical coffee. The funny thing about it is that he works for the Food and Nutrition Service! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

He also is rather trim for a core Boomer. He frequently hikes in the Appalachian Trail and burns off his cokes and burgers.

Originally Posted by Jesse Manoogian

[We don't have any people who eat a lot of meat and forgo vegetables today, do we? And if there were they'd probably be viewed as politically incorrect troglodytes by liberals.

Actually, my Division Director (a 51-year-old core Boomer) enjoys meat and the only vegetable he consumes is potato. He also drinks Coke for breakfast instead of the more typical coffee. The funny thing about it is that he works for the Food and Nutrition Service! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

He also is rather trim for a core Boomer. He frequently hikes in the Appalachian Trail and burns off his cokes and burgers.

Trollking:

H.C. begins with the assumption that an embryo in early gestation should be treated the same as an actual child. I believe it's probably those two dots that you're having trouble connecting.

Trollking:

H.C. begins with the assumption that an embryo in early gestation should be treated the same as an actual child. I believe it's probably those two dots that you're having trouble connecting.

I try to eat a half pound of beef or pork every day and condescend to eat vegetables 2 or 3 times a week. I thought vegetarians existed solely for me to make fun of them and I find them every bit as weird as people who drink bottled water. I also smoke a half pound of pipe tobacco a week, but I no longer drink because my fifth of scotch a day habit caused me some temporary health problems, since resolved. HTH.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

I try to eat a half pound of beef or pork every day and condescend to eat vegetables 2 or 3 times a week. I thought vegetarians existed solely for me to make fun of them and I find them every bit as weird as people who drink bottled water. I also smoke a half pound of pipe tobacco a week, but I no longer drink because my fifth of scotch a day habit caused me some temporary health problems, since resolved. HTH.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Originally Posted by Jesse Manoogian

We don't have any people who eat a lot of meat and forgo vegetables today, do we? And if there were they'd probably be viewed as politically incorrect troglodytes by liberals.

You can throw me in with Jenny's Division Director, only I am probably worse. His idea of a vegetable may be a potato, but my idea is french fries. :grin: