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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 204







Post#5076 at 12-08-2002 01:56 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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12-08-2002, 01:56 AM #5076
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush
Chris:

Since I'm now simply silly with paranoia, am I excused from being tyrannical?
:lol:

Touche, sir!

But what you seemingly fail to comprehend sir, is that without those "sins" there would be no children.
Oh, I don't fail to comprehend it. But the sin did occur, and thus the children do exist.

Besides, the nature of the sin was an exertion of improper control over another person's life, not the creation of new human beings. It is in the same category, morally, as not allowing your wife her own checkbook, or keeping her chained to the bed.
By that same pseudologic, a police officer preventing Andrea Yates from killing her children would be morally equivalent to a spousal abuser.







Post#5077 at 12-08-2002 01:56 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush
Chris:

Since I'm now simply silly with paranoia, am I excused from being tyrannical?
:lol:

Touche, sir!

But what you seemingly fail to comprehend sir, is that without those "sins" there would be no children.
Oh, I don't fail to comprehend it. But the sin did occur, and thus the children do exist.

Besides, the nature of the sin was an exertion of improper control over another person's life, not the creation of new human beings. It is in the same category, morally, as not allowing your wife her own checkbook, or keeping her chained to the bed.
By that same pseudologic, a police officer preventing Andrea Yates from killing her children would be morally equivalent to a spousal abuser.







Post#5078 at 12-08-2002 01:59 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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12-08-2002, 01:59 AM #5078
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Quote Originally Posted by Chris'68

You have no clue what I might have done to make it my decision, sir. But were I to tell you, would you feel inclined to have me arrested for violating her civil rights? And to make amends for my villainy, perhaps we should impose the Exclusionary Rule, and excise the fruit of the poisoned tree?
I feel certain Brian himself would not, but there are most certainly abortion supporters who quietly would wish just that.







Post#5079 at 12-08-2002 01:59 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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12-08-2002, 01:59 AM #5079
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Quote Originally Posted by Chris'68

You have no clue what I might have done to make it my decision, sir. But were I to tell you, would you feel inclined to have me arrested for violating her civil rights? And to make amends for my villainy, perhaps we should impose the Exclusionary Rule, and excise the fruit of the poisoned tree?
I feel certain Brian himself would not, but there are most certainly abortion supporters who quietly would wish just that.







Post#5080 at 12-08-2002 02:00 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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12-08-2002, 02:00 AM #5080
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Quote Originally Posted by Chris'68
Quote Originally Posted by TrollKing
Quote Originally Posted by Chris'68
....the two children I didn't let her abort don't think it's too bad.
didn't let her abort? i don't mean to pry, but did you really mean that? because it implies that that's what would have happened had you not stopped it.
You understood me perfectly the first time I said it, TK. I wasn't implying anything - I'm telling you flat-out.

"Well, since... <insert excuse here> ...I could just get an abortion...."

I heard this routine at least five times during each pregnancy. And just in case there are some out there who think I "misunderstood" or who think "she said 'could', not 'should' or 'will'...", this is the same woman who, a couple of years later and after I'd spent 6 months in exile following her change of the locks, told me to "come get the kids."

"But I'm not ready yet - I still don't have a place of my own and I'm staying in my parents' small house in Florida." (We're originally from NJ.)

"Come get them, or I'll get rid of them."

Susan Smith had killed her two children (in North Carolina?) the month before.

(me, irritated) "What are you going to do, strap them into a Jeep and roll them into a lake?"

"I just might."

I was on a plane and in NJ within 24 hrs.

I'll admit in retrospect that my judge of prospective mates was pitiful, but even if I could have foreseen these circumstances (or worse), I've never been fond of letting other people relieve me of the pleasures, pains and responsibilities of being a parent to those two "clumps of cells".

The great thing about S&H is that it brings into sharp focus that any discussion of history, sociology, economics, etc. isn't just an obscure philosophical conversation. The wheel of time turns, and we are all teeth on the gears.
Chris, I don't have the words to express my respect for you.







Post#5081 at 12-08-2002 02:00 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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12-08-2002, 02:00 AM #5081
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Quote Originally Posted by Chris'68
Quote Originally Posted by TrollKing
Quote Originally Posted by Chris'68
....the two children I didn't let her abort don't think it's too bad.
didn't let her abort? i don't mean to pry, but did you really mean that? because it implies that that's what would have happened had you not stopped it.
You understood me perfectly the first time I said it, TK. I wasn't implying anything - I'm telling you flat-out.

"Well, since... <insert excuse here> ...I could just get an abortion...."

I heard this routine at least five times during each pregnancy. And just in case there are some out there who think I "misunderstood" or who think "she said 'could', not 'should' or 'will'...", this is the same woman who, a couple of years later and after I'd spent 6 months in exile following her change of the locks, told me to "come get the kids."

"But I'm not ready yet - I still don't have a place of my own and I'm staying in my parents' small house in Florida." (We're originally from NJ.)

"Come get them, or I'll get rid of them."

Susan Smith had killed her two children (in North Carolina?) the month before.

(me, irritated) "What are you going to do, strap them into a Jeep and roll them into a lake?"

"I just might."

I was on a plane and in NJ within 24 hrs.

I'll admit in retrospect that my judge of prospective mates was pitiful, but even if I could have foreseen these circumstances (or worse), I've never been fond of letting other people relieve me of the pleasures, pains and responsibilities of being a parent to those two "clumps of cells".

The great thing about S&H is that it brings into sharp focus that any discussion of history, sociology, economics, etc. isn't just an obscure philosophical conversation. The wheel of time turns, and we are all teeth on the gears.
Chris, I don't have the words to express my respect for you.







Post#5082 at 12-08-2002 03:32 AM by TrollKing [at Portland, OR -- b. 1968 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,257]
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Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
By that same pseudologic, a police officer preventing Andrea Yates from killing her children would be morally equivalent to a spousal abuser.
huh? how the hell did you get that?

connect the dots for me, here....


TK







Post#5083 at 12-08-2002 03:32 AM by TrollKing [at Portland, OR -- b. 1968 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,257]
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Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
By that same pseudologic, a police officer preventing Andrea Yates from killing her children would be morally equivalent to a spousal abuser.
huh? how the hell did you get that?

connect the dots for me, here....


TK







Post#5084 at 12-08-2002 09:18 AM by mjkaminski [at Wilton Manors, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 12]
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please stay on topic

PlLEASE stay on topic ...

I joined this thread to talk about S&H and their ideas, not to listen to pseudo moralistic arguments about abortion. Please keep to the topic and save the other discussion for another place. It is very distracting as well as disrespectful of the author's intent. Thank you ....







Post#5085 at 12-08-2002 09:18 AM by mjkaminski [at Wilton Manors, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 12]
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please stay on topic

PlLEASE stay on topic ...

I joined this thread to talk about S&H and their ideas, not to listen to pseudo moralistic arguments about abortion. Please keep to the topic and save the other discussion for another place. It is very distracting as well as disrespectful of the author's intent. Thank you ....







Post#5086 at 12-08-2002 10:45 AM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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Re: please stay on topic

Quote Originally Posted by mjkaminski
PlLEASE stay on topic ...

I joined this thread to talk about S&H and their ideas, not to listen to pseudo moralistic arguments about abortion. Please keep to the topic and save the other discussion for another place. It is very distracting as well as disrespectful of the author's intent. Thank you ....
They are on topic and engaged in a discussion which began on this thread before you made your post. They are responding to other people's posts on this thread, not yours.







Post#5087 at 12-08-2002 10:45 AM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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Re: please stay on topic

Quote Originally Posted by mjkaminski
PlLEASE stay on topic ...

I joined this thread to talk about S&H and their ideas, not to listen to pseudo moralistic arguments about abortion. Please keep to the topic and save the other discussion for another place. It is very distracting as well as disrespectful of the author's intent. Thank you ....
They are on topic and engaged in a discussion which began on this thread before you made your post. They are responding to other people's posts on this thread, not yours.







Post#5088 at 12-08-2002 11:16 AM by Opusaug [at Ft. Myers, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 7]
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12-08-2002, 11:16 AM #5088
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Re: please stay on topic

Quote Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton
Quote Originally Posted by mjkaminski
PlLEASE stay on topic ...

I joined this thread to talk about S&H and their ideas, not to listen to pseudo moralistic arguments about abortion. Please keep to the topic and save the other discussion for another place. It is very distracting as well as disrespectful of the author's intent. Thank you ....
They are on topic and engaged in a discussion which began on this thread before you made your post. They are responding to other people's posts on this thread, not yours.
I can't think of very much that could be off-topic in this thread. We're supposed to be supplying "evidence that we're in a fourth turning", and since S&H's theories are based on the way generations act and react to one another, we're all just supplying evidence by interacting with one another.

I find this thread most instructive - especially when I keep my mouth shut and listen. 8)
Christopher O'Conor
13er, '68 cohort







Post#5089 at 12-08-2002 11:16 AM by Opusaug [at Ft. Myers, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 7]
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Re: please stay on topic

Quote Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton
Quote Originally Posted by mjkaminski
PlLEASE stay on topic ...

I joined this thread to talk about S&H and their ideas, not to listen to pseudo moralistic arguments about abortion. Please keep to the topic and save the other discussion for another place. It is very distracting as well as disrespectful of the author's intent. Thank you ....
They are on topic and engaged in a discussion which began on this thread before you made your post. They are responding to other people's posts on this thread, not yours.
I can't think of very much that could be off-topic in this thread. We're supposed to be supplying "evidence that we're in a fourth turning", and since S&H's theories are based on the way generations act and react to one another, we're all just supplying evidence by interacting with one another.

I find this thread most instructive - especially when I keep my mouth shut and listen. 8)
Christopher O'Conor
13er, '68 cohort







Post#5090 at 12-08-2002 03:29 PM by mjkaminski [at Wilton Manors, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 12]
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Not off topic? Endless he said/she said is boring at best. I am well aware that these remarks were not intended for me. What I was commenting on was their relevance (or irrelevance) to the author's choice of topic for this thread. The 15th or 17th follow-up to an irrelevant remark is still an irrelevant remark. Quantity does not improve its quality. I thought this was a grown-up discussion of ideas, not a sophmoric bull session. Enjoy yourselves. I'm going to go find out where the grown-ups are hanging out.







Post#5091 at 12-08-2002 03:29 PM by mjkaminski [at Wilton Manors, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 12]
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12-08-2002, 03:29 PM #5091
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Not off topic? Endless he said/she said is boring at best. I am well aware that these remarks were not intended for me. What I was commenting on was their relevance (or irrelevance) to the author's choice of topic for this thread. The 15th or 17th follow-up to an irrelevant remark is still an irrelevant remark. Quantity does not improve its quality. I thought this was a grown-up discussion of ideas, not a sophmoric bull session. Enjoy yourselves. I'm going to go find out where the grown-ups are hanging out.







Post#5092 at 12-08-2002 03:44 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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Quote Originally Posted by mjkaminski
Not off topic? Endless he said/she said is boring at best. I am well aware that these remarks were not intended for me. What I was commenting on was their relevance (or irrelevance) to the author's choice of topic for this thread. The 15th or 17th follow-up to an irrelevant remark is still an irrelevant remark. Quantity does not improve its quality. I thought this was a grown-up discussion of ideas, not a sophmoric bull session.

Thread topic (copied from top of thread):

Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning


According to S&H:

3T = Culture Wars
4T = more important stuff
3T/4T cusp = shift to more important stuff


There really is no valid reason why these other guys cannot continue to discuss their cultural issues and the current significance thereof while other people discuss with you whatever it is you are discussing. However there is a button for starting a new thread and, if you are so inclined, you can try that and the Culture Warriors should not follow you to your new thread. There is no guarantee however that someone will not inadvertently steer your new thread off on some other unforeseen tangent. It happens all the time, purely unintentionally, with no disrespect intended. We live with it. It's not the end of the world.


Enjoy yourselves. I'm going to go find out where the grown-ups are hanging out.
OK. You have permission so long as you share your toys. :grin:







Post#5093 at 12-08-2002 03:44 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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Quote Originally Posted by mjkaminski
Not off topic? Endless he said/she said is boring at best. I am well aware that these remarks were not intended for me. What I was commenting on was their relevance (or irrelevance) to the author's choice of topic for this thread. The 15th or 17th follow-up to an irrelevant remark is still an irrelevant remark. Quantity does not improve its quality. I thought this was a grown-up discussion of ideas, not a sophmoric bull session.

Thread topic (copied from top of thread):

Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning


According to S&H:

3T = Culture Wars
4T = more important stuff
3T/4T cusp = shift to more important stuff


There really is no valid reason why these other guys cannot continue to discuss their cultural issues and the current significance thereof while other people discuss with you whatever it is you are discussing. However there is a button for starting a new thread and, if you are so inclined, you can try that and the Culture Warriors should not follow you to your new thread. There is no guarantee however that someone will not inadvertently steer your new thread off on some other unforeseen tangent. It happens all the time, purely unintentionally, with no disrespect intended. We live with it. It's not the end of the world.


Enjoy yourselves. I'm going to go find out where the grown-ups are hanging out.
OK. You have permission so long as you share your toys. :grin:







Post#5094 at 12-08-2002 08:06 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: The Good Citizen's Handbook

Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Manoogian
[We don't have any people who eat a lot of meat and forgo vegetables today, do we? And if there were they'd probably be viewed as politically incorrect troglodytes by liberals.
Actually, my Division Director (a 51-year-old core Boomer) enjoys meat and the only vegetable he consumes is potato. He also drinks Coke for breakfast instead of the more typical coffee. The funny thing about it is that he works for the Food and Nutrition Service! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

He also is rather trim for a core Boomer. He frequently hikes in the Appalachian Trail and burns off his cokes and burgers.







Post#5095 at 12-08-2002 08:06 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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12-08-2002, 08:06 PM #5095
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Re: The Good Citizen's Handbook

Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Manoogian
[We don't have any people who eat a lot of meat and forgo vegetables today, do we? And if there were they'd probably be viewed as politically incorrect troglodytes by liberals.
Actually, my Division Director (a 51-year-old core Boomer) enjoys meat and the only vegetable he consumes is potato. He also drinks Coke for breakfast instead of the more typical coffee. The funny thing about it is that he works for the Food and Nutrition Service! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

He also is rather trim for a core Boomer. He frequently hikes in the Appalachian Trail and burns off his cokes and burgers.







Post#5096 at 12-08-2002 09:33 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Trollking:

H.C. begins with the assumption that an embryo in early gestation should be treated the same as an actual child. I believe it's probably those two dots that you're having trouble connecting.







Post#5097 at 12-08-2002 09:33 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Trollking:

H.C. begins with the assumption that an embryo in early gestation should be treated the same as an actual child. I believe it's probably those two dots that you're having trouble connecting.







Post#5098 at 12-08-2002 09:37 PM by David Krein [at Gainesville, Florida joined Jul 2001 #posts 604]
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I try to eat a half pound of beef or pork every day and condescend to eat vegetables 2 or 3 times a week. I thought vegetarians existed solely for me to make fun of them and I find them every bit as weird as people who drink bottled water. I also smoke a half pound of pipe tobacco a week, but I no longer drink because my fifth of scotch a day habit caused me some temporary health problems, since resolved. HTH.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42







Post#5099 at 12-08-2002 09:37 PM by David Krein [at Gainesville, Florida joined Jul 2001 #posts 604]
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I try to eat a half pound of beef or pork every day and condescend to eat vegetables 2 or 3 times a week. I thought vegetarians existed solely for me to make fun of them and I find them every bit as weird as people who drink bottled water. I also smoke a half pound of pipe tobacco a week, but I no longer drink because my fifth of scotch a day habit caused me some temporary health problems, since resolved. HTH.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42







Post#5100 at 12-08-2002 09:47 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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Re: The Good Citizen's Handbook

Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Manoogian
We don't have any people who eat a lot of meat and forgo vegetables today, do we? And if there were they'd probably be viewed as politically incorrect troglodytes by liberals.
You can throw me in with Jenny's Division Director, only I am probably worse. His idea of a vegetable may be a potato, but my idea is french fries. :grin:
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