Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 220







Post#5476 at 01-10-2003 03:07 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
01-10-2003, 03:07 PM #5476
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by Tristan Jones
Quote Originally Posted by Marc S. Lamb

First of all, why provide a link to the pro-SUV guy, when you've talked about a anti-SUV gal?

Second, this may come as a shock to you (I know it does to liberals), but upholding the law (and some degree of civil order) is the only means man has at "maximsing liberty for everyone."
Firstly,
Well the article talked about the backlash aganist SUV's and what may be behind it.

Secondly,
I will clear this one Australian 'Conservatives' do not mind trampling over 'few liberties and rights here and there' in the pursuit of making a more 'ordered, decent civil' society, some of them would love a Singapore style justice system if it meant very low crime rates. Before the 1960's Singapore's apporach to justice which includes corporal punishment for minor offenders was the standard in Britain and also in Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
If our American conservative friends were halfway honest, they'd admit that this is their view as well. Order and using the "stick" to achieve it are hallmark conservative positions in this country, too. Show me even ONE Republican Attorney General that didn't support a strict application of "justice", even though the risk to the innocent was high. I doubt you'll find one.

If you question their overbearing use of the police power, you'll only be branded as "soft on crime". Like the SUV phenomenon, it's the fear factor that rules.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#5477 at 01-10-2003 03:07 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
01-10-2003, 03:07 PM #5477
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by Tristan Jones
Quote Originally Posted by Marc S. Lamb

First of all, why provide a link to the pro-SUV guy, when you've talked about a anti-SUV gal?

Second, this may come as a shock to you (I know it does to liberals), but upholding the law (and some degree of civil order) is the only means man has at "maximsing liberty for everyone."
Firstly,
Well the article talked about the backlash aganist SUV's and what may be behind it.

Secondly,
I will clear this one Australian 'Conservatives' do not mind trampling over 'few liberties and rights here and there' in the pursuit of making a more 'ordered, decent civil' society, some of them would love a Singapore style justice system if it meant very low crime rates. Before the 1960's Singapore's apporach to justice which includes corporal punishment for minor offenders was the standard in Britain and also in Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
If our American conservative friends were halfway honest, they'd admit that this is their view as well. Order and using the "stick" to achieve it are hallmark conservative positions in this country, too. Show me even ONE Republican Attorney General that didn't support a strict application of "justice", even though the risk to the innocent was high. I doubt you'll find one.

If you question their overbearing use of the police power, you'll only be branded as "soft on crime". Like the SUV phenomenon, it's the fear factor that rules.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#5478 at 01-10-2003 03:24 PM by monoghan [at Ohio joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,189]
---
01-10-2003, 03:24 PM #5478
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Ohio
Posts
1,189

emeece wrote:
Actually, on astrological grounds, I claim Bush will not be in office after 2005. We'll see.[/quote]

Monoghan notes:

I knew that you were both Californians, but I never would have guessed that you and Nancy Reagan shared the same intellectual background.







Post#5479 at 01-10-2003 03:24 PM by monoghan [at Ohio joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,189]
---
01-10-2003, 03:24 PM #5479
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Ohio
Posts
1,189

emeece wrote:
Actually, on astrological grounds, I claim Bush will not be in office after 2005. We'll see.[/quote]

Monoghan notes:

I knew that you were both Californians, but I never would have guessed that you and Nancy Reagan shared the same intellectual background.







Post#5480 at 01-10-2003 03:28 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
01-10-2003, 03:28 PM #5480
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Monoghan, if you'd been paying attention, you'd have known long ago that Eric is an astrologer. But the difference between him and Nancy is that he actually does it, rather than paying someone else to do it.







Post#5481 at 01-10-2003 03:28 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
01-10-2003, 03:28 PM #5481
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Monoghan, if you'd been paying attention, you'd have known long ago that Eric is an astrologer. But the difference between him and Nancy is that he actually does it, rather than paying someone else to do it.







Post#5482 at 01-10-2003 03:32 PM by zilch [at joined Nov 2001 #posts 3,491]
---
01-10-2003, 03:32 PM #5482
Join Date
Nov 2001
Posts
3,491

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by David '47
If you question their overbearing use of the police power, you'll only be branded as "soft on crime". Like the SUV phenomenon, it's the fear factor that rules.
I guess that makes me soft on SUVs, huh? :wink:







Post#5483 at 01-10-2003 03:32 PM by zilch [at joined Nov 2001 #posts 3,491]
---
01-10-2003, 03:32 PM #5483
Join Date
Nov 2001
Posts
3,491

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by David '47
If you question their overbearing use of the police power, you'll only be branded as "soft on crime". Like the SUV phenomenon, it's the fear factor that rules.
I guess that makes me soft on SUVs, huh? :wink:







Post#5484 at 01-10-2003 03:33 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
---
01-10-2003, 03:33 PM #5484
Join Date
Sep 2001
Posts
3,857

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by David '47
Is this your opening shot on the issue of driver"s rights? If so, I'll enjoy seeing you try to defending your point. There are a lot of things that can reasonabley be called "rights", but SUV ownership and use aren't among them.
No, I don't think much of anything can be accomplished by debating this SUV business so I do not see any point in doing so. But after all these years of putting up with this tobacco nonsense, I think a lot of people have finally had it with this busybody crap and they are not going to take it anymore. If this SUV silliness keeps up, I believe the adults among us will finally assert themselves. There actually are important things going on in this country and the world at the moment which deserve our attention. Maybe we will finally get our priorities back in order.







Post#5485 at 01-10-2003 03:33 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
---
01-10-2003, 03:33 PM #5485
Join Date
Sep 2001
Posts
3,857

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by David '47
Is this your opening shot on the issue of driver"s rights? If so, I'll enjoy seeing you try to defending your point. There are a lot of things that can reasonabley be called "rights", but SUV ownership and use aren't among them.
No, I don't think much of anything can be accomplished by debating this SUV business so I do not see any point in doing so. But after all these years of putting up with this tobacco nonsense, I think a lot of people have finally had it with this busybody crap and they are not going to take it anymore. If this SUV silliness keeps up, I believe the adults among us will finally assert themselves. There actually are important things going on in this country and the world at the moment which deserve our attention. Maybe we will finally get our priorities back in order.







Post#5486 at 01-10-2003 03:38 PM by zilch [at joined Nov 2001 #posts 3,491]
---
01-10-2003, 03:38 PM #5486
Join Date
Nov 2001
Posts
3,491

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton
There actually are important things going on in this country and the world at the moment which deserve our attention.
Like what?



Oh, yeah... our evil Bushlicker, Gestapoesque, Hermann Goeringish, resurgent 1984 Big Brother, Republican Neo-Con backed, anti-ACLU and civil liberty hating, all seeing, all knowing, want to kill babies with tobacco, gun-totin', SUV-driving, wife-beating, illegal immigrant loathing, grandma should eat dog food believeing, backwoods fundamentalist preachin', God fearing, flag-a-waving, naked statue-a-covering Attorney General Ashcroft has dropped the ball on illegal immigration. :wink:



p.s. Did I mention he's a BIG CORPORATIST, too?







Post#5487 at 01-10-2003 03:38 PM by zilch [at joined Nov 2001 #posts 3,491]
---
01-10-2003, 03:38 PM #5487
Join Date
Nov 2001
Posts
3,491

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton
There actually are important things going on in this country and the world at the moment which deserve our attention.
Like what?



Oh, yeah... our evil Bushlicker, Gestapoesque, Hermann Goeringish, resurgent 1984 Big Brother, Republican Neo-Con backed, anti-ACLU and civil liberty hating, all seeing, all knowing, want to kill babies with tobacco, gun-totin', SUV-driving, wife-beating, illegal immigrant loathing, grandma should eat dog food believeing, backwoods fundamentalist preachin', God fearing, flag-a-waving, naked statue-a-covering Attorney General Ashcroft has dropped the ball on illegal immigration. :wink:



p.s. Did I mention he's a BIG CORPORATIST, too?







Post#5488 at 01-10-2003 03:40 PM by monoghan [at Ohio joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,189]
---
01-10-2003, 03:40 PM #5488
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Ohio
Posts
1,189

I knew that Meece was some type of New Age adherent, just not to astrology because he rejects the authors' thesis. (My bad for not reading the archives).

I also did not realize that there is such a chasm of respectability between believing practitioners of astrology and believing consumers of astrology. That must account for the difference in political positions taken by Mr. Meece and Mrs. Reagan. {sarcasm off}







Post#5489 at 01-10-2003 03:40 PM by monoghan [at Ohio joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,189]
---
01-10-2003, 03:40 PM #5489
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Ohio
Posts
1,189

I knew that Meece was some type of New Age adherent, just not to astrology because he rejects the authors' thesis. (My bad for not reading the archives).

I also did not realize that there is such a chasm of respectability between believing practitioners of astrology and believing consumers of astrology. That must account for the difference in political positions taken by Mr. Meece and Mrs. Reagan. {sarcasm off}







Post#5490 at 01-10-2003 04:51 PM by elilevin [at Red Hill, New Mexico joined Jan 2002 #posts 452]
---
01-10-2003, 04:51 PM #5490
Join Date
Jan 2002
Location
Red Hill, New Mexico
Posts
452

SUV's, oil and the coming war

Hi all! Hope you had a great winter break!

About the SUV's: I think that the original post on this thread was stating that the fuss about SUV's gives us some clue as to which turning we might be in.

There has been a minor fuss about SUV's. (We used to call them SAV's--Suburban Assault Vehicles). There was a photograph in the paper in December that showed Rabbi David Saperstein of the Reform Movement's Religious Action Center getting into a small, gas efficient vehicle with a bumber sticker that said "What would Jesus Drive?" Whether this is evidence of 3T or 4T I don't know. There could be arguments for both positions.

BUT the SUV fuss does show that we are not approaching regeneracy yet, if 9/11 was the catalyst. The issue of the SUV is only the tip of the issue iceberg. It is our need for oil that makes the middle east an area of intense interest to the US. Although we now get the majority of the oil we use from other sources, we still need oil from the middle east because since the Embargo following the '73 war, we have gradually gone back to driving massive cars that use lots of gas and we use more oil than ever in manufacting of stuff that we like to buy. As this crisis deepens, we will need to seriously consider how to reduce our oil use and so lessen our dependence on middle east oil. This will free us and it will also make it necessary for the middle-eastern oil producers to develop their nations in other ways. They will have to focus on the education of their population to produce wealth not just take it from the ground. This could well mean changes in governments there to accommodate such a change.

Oil, or more globally, energy will be a problem that we will have to solve to successfully navigate this crisis.
Elisheva Levin

"It is not up to us to complete the task,
but neither are we free to desist from it."
--Pirkei Avot







Post#5491 at 01-10-2003 04:51 PM by elilevin [at Red Hill, New Mexico joined Jan 2002 #posts 452]
---
01-10-2003, 04:51 PM #5491
Join Date
Jan 2002
Location
Red Hill, New Mexico
Posts
452

SUV's, oil and the coming war

Hi all! Hope you had a great winter break!

About the SUV's: I think that the original post on this thread was stating that the fuss about SUV's gives us some clue as to which turning we might be in.

There has been a minor fuss about SUV's. (We used to call them SAV's--Suburban Assault Vehicles). There was a photograph in the paper in December that showed Rabbi David Saperstein of the Reform Movement's Religious Action Center getting into a small, gas efficient vehicle with a bumber sticker that said "What would Jesus Drive?" Whether this is evidence of 3T or 4T I don't know. There could be arguments for both positions.

BUT the SUV fuss does show that we are not approaching regeneracy yet, if 9/11 was the catalyst. The issue of the SUV is only the tip of the issue iceberg. It is our need for oil that makes the middle east an area of intense interest to the US. Although we now get the majority of the oil we use from other sources, we still need oil from the middle east because since the Embargo following the '73 war, we have gradually gone back to driving massive cars that use lots of gas and we use more oil than ever in manufacting of stuff that we like to buy. As this crisis deepens, we will need to seriously consider how to reduce our oil use and so lessen our dependence on middle east oil. This will free us and it will also make it necessary for the middle-eastern oil producers to develop their nations in other ways. They will have to focus on the education of their population to produce wealth not just take it from the ground. This could well mean changes in governments there to accommodate such a change.

Oil, or more globally, energy will be a problem that we will have to solve to successfully navigate this crisis.
Elisheva Levin

"It is not up to us to complete the task,
but neither are we free to desist from it."
--Pirkei Avot







Post#5492 at 01-10-2003 05:06 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
---
01-10-2003, 05:06 PM #5492
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort
Posts
14,092

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59
Reclassifying them as passenger cars subject to the 27mpg CAFE requirement might well mandate that my next vehicle be either an SUV, or a dorky little Toyota Echo, neither choice of which would be acceptable to me.
Hey Kevin! I own two Echos, and they're great cars! :-) Great gas mileage and pretty good power for a little car.

Otherwise, I agree with you about SUVs; right now the people want 'em, and that's fine, but someday gas will shoot up over $2 a gallon again, and they'll switch.

I still think that the Arianna Huffington-sponsored anti-SUV ads are a complete riot! :lol:







Post#5493 at 01-10-2003 05:06 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
---
01-10-2003, 05:06 PM #5493
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort
Posts
14,092

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59
Reclassifying them as passenger cars subject to the 27mpg CAFE requirement might well mandate that my next vehicle be either an SUV, or a dorky little Toyota Echo, neither choice of which would be acceptable to me.
Hey Kevin! I own two Echos, and they're great cars! :-) Great gas mileage and pretty good power for a little car.

Otherwise, I agree with you about SUVs; right now the people want 'em, and that's fine, but someday gas will shoot up over $2 a gallon again, and they'll switch.

I still think that the Arianna Huffington-sponsored anti-SUV ads are a complete riot! :lol:







Post#5494 at 01-10-2003 06:38 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
01-10-2003, 06:38 PM #5494
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by Kiff '61
Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59
Reclassifying them as passenger cars subject to the 27mpg CAFE requirement might well mandate that my next vehicle be either an SUV, or a dorky little Toyota Echo, neither choice of which would be acceptable to me.
Hey Kevin! I own two Echos, and they're great cars! :-) Great gas mileage and pretty good power for a little car.

Otherwise, I agree with you about SUVs; right now the people want 'em, and that's fine, but someday gas will shoot up over $2 a gallon again, and they'll switch.

I still think that the Arianna Huffington-sponsored anti-SUV ads are a complete riot! :lol:

Sorry, Kiff- no offense intended! That example popped into my head because a few months ago i saw a movie called "One Hour Photo" featuring Robin Williams as a psychotic dork-from-Hell, and he drove an Echo. In the movie, the car seemed to underscore the personality of the character. Not that I think that you are a psycho! :-)

But seriously, if in two or three years I decide to step down from my 3-Series I just might consider buying another Toyota Celica. I've owned three in my life, and yes they were all great cars. They'll have to change the body style though-- the current Celica model sucks! It's smaller than the last model, feels very cramped inside and has lousy, un-Toyotalike interior fit-and-finish.







Post#5495 at 01-10-2003 06:38 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
01-10-2003, 06:38 PM #5495
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by Kiff '61
Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59
Reclassifying them as passenger cars subject to the 27mpg CAFE requirement might well mandate that my next vehicle be either an SUV, or a dorky little Toyota Echo, neither choice of which would be acceptable to me.
Hey Kevin! I own two Echos, and they're great cars! :-) Great gas mileage and pretty good power for a little car.

Otherwise, I agree with you about SUVs; right now the people want 'em, and that's fine, but someday gas will shoot up over $2 a gallon again, and they'll switch.

I still think that the Arianna Huffington-sponsored anti-SUV ads are a complete riot! :lol:

Sorry, Kiff- no offense intended! That example popped into my head because a few months ago i saw a movie called "One Hour Photo" featuring Robin Williams as a psychotic dork-from-Hell, and he drove an Echo. In the movie, the car seemed to underscore the personality of the character. Not that I think that you are a psycho! :-)

But seriously, if in two or three years I decide to step down from my 3-Series I just might consider buying another Toyota Celica. I've owned three in my life, and yes they were all great cars. They'll have to change the body style though-- the current Celica model sucks! It's smaller than the last model, feels very cramped inside and has lousy, un-Toyotalike interior fit-and-finish.







Post#5496 at 01-10-2003 06:46 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
---
01-10-2003, 06:46 PM #5496
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort
Posts
14,092

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59
Sorry, Kiff- no offense intended! That example popped into my head because a few months ago i saw a movie called "One Hour Photo" featuring Robin Williams as a psychotic dork-from-Hell, and he drove an Echo. In the movie, the car seemed to underscore the personality of the character. Not that I think that you are a psycho! :-)
I meant to see that movie. Gotta put it on my list of Things to See in '03. ;-) Thanks for the tip. No offense taken. Shoot, I never notice what people drive in movies ('Cept for Bond, of course. ;-)).







Post#5497 at 01-10-2003 06:46 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
---
01-10-2003, 06:46 PM #5497
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort
Posts
14,092

Re: Backlash aganist SUV's

Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59
Sorry, Kiff- no offense intended! That example popped into my head because a few months ago i saw a movie called "One Hour Photo" featuring Robin Williams as a psychotic dork-from-Hell, and he drove an Echo. In the movie, the car seemed to underscore the personality of the character. Not that I think that you are a psycho! :-)
I meant to see that movie. Gotta put it on my list of Things to See in '03. ;-) Thanks for the tip. No offense taken. Shoot, I never notice what people drive in movies ('Cept for Bond, of course. ;-)).







Post#5498 at 01-10-2003 06:51 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
01-10-2003, 06:51 PM #5498
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

In assessing whether any given controversy is a sign of 3T or 4T, I think it's helpful to bear in mind the issues on which the Crisis turns. Once again, in my opinion, these are:

1) The instability of the global economy due to maldistribution of wealth;

2) The breakdown of the global peacekeeping system due to the fall of one of the superpowers, and accompanying proliferation of WMD and terrorist movements; and

3) The looming collision between our low efficiency/high throughput style of production/consumption, and natural limits.

An issue that encompasses one or more of these three is 4T; one that does not is 3T. The SUV controversy touches on the third issue directly and the second indirectly. It is therefore 4T, although I agree with Eli that it is only the tip of the iceberg, and that far more serious transformations will be necessary than merely upping SUV gas mileage requirements or even banning SUVs altogether.







Post#5499 at 01-10-2003 06:51 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
01-10-2003, 06:51 PM #5499
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

In assessing whether any given controversy is a sign of 3T or 4T, I think it's helpful to bear in mind the issues on which the Crisis turns. Once again, in my opinion, these are:

1) The instability of the global economy due to maldistribution of wealth;

2) The breakdown of the global peacekeeping system due to the fall of one of the superpowers, and accompanying proliferation of WMD and terrorist movements; and

3) The looming collision between our low efficiency/high throughput style of production/consumption, and natural limits.

An issue that encompasses one or more of these three is 4T; one that does not is 3T. The SUV controversy touches on the third issue directly and the second indirectly. It is therefore 4T, although I agree with Eli that it is only the tip of the iceberg, and that far more serious transformations will be necessary than merely upping SUV gas mileage requirements or even banning SUVs altogether.







Post#5500 at 01-10-2003 08:21 PM by Ocicat [at joined Jan 2003 #posts 167]
---
01-10-2003, 08:21 PM #5500
Join Date
Jan 2003
Posts
167

Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush
In assessing whether any given controversy is a sign of 3T or 4T, I think it's helpful to bear in mind the issues on which the Crisis turns. Once again, in my opinion, these are:

1) The instability of the global economy due to maldistribution of wealth;

2) The breakdown of the global peacekeeping system due to the fall of one of the superpowers, and accompanying proliferation of WMD and terrorist movements; and

3) The looming collision between our low efficiency/high throughput style of production/consumption, and natural limits.
I believe we're in a Fourth Turning, and I have no trouble seeing how issues (1) and (2) fit into the current crisis. I also believe that "our low efficiency/high throughput style of production/consumption" will pose a threat to the continuance of civilization (and possibly the human species). But I have a harder time seeing the emergence of this issue as a life-and-death matter over the next twenty years or so. For example, most of the studies I've heard about put the bulk of the problems associated with global warming (e.g. destruction of biomes and associated species loss, movement of agricultural belts, coastal flooding) toward the end of the 21st century.

I gather that you have a different take on the matter. Could you elaborate? How might the environmental consequences of our past and current behavior come home to roost over the next few decades to the point where civilization is threatened?
-----------------------------------------