Originally Posted by John Wayne

Originally Posted by Justino

There were thousands of people there. Did they magically disappear?
Was I hallucinating?

Where are they all now, Justino?

Why haven't they marched against Iraq's violations of human dignity? Why no demonstrations against the execution of Iraqi citizens? Why don't they march in front of Iraqi embassies somewhere to protest Iraq's violations of the Geneva convention?

Why don't they go to Iraq to help the millions who have suffered under Saddam Hussein?

The answer, Justino, to your questions is this: politicians and the media know that the antiwar movement in America is small and inconsequential compared to the majority favoring the war.

That's all there is to it. If the antiwar movement had more people in the US, you'd see more media coverage and politicans pandering to it, as in Europe.

The antiglobalization movement made front page news every time. They were on the cover of Time magazine after Seattle. I mean if you were in Washington DC from April 15 to April 20 in 2000 could you deny the fact that you couldn't go to work because there were hundreds of thousands of people between you and your work place?

They definitely existed, except the authors have denied their existence.
Gen X is all apathetic individualism. Millies are all conformist authority worshippers.
That is a falsehood. Simple as that.

whoa justino--- All Millies are conformist authority worshippers? I think maybe the 2nd wave will be, but I think the first wave even tops your generation.

Instead of "Long, Hot Summers", how about "The Longest Winter?"

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article...nested&order=0


By William Rivers Pitt, T r u t h o u t

There is a US Army chaplain in Iraq named Josh Llano, hailing originally from Houston, who is tending his flock in the desert outside Najaf. He has in his possession a 500-gallon pool of pure, clean water. He is well aware of the fact that our troops have been suffering a water shortage due to Fedayeen attacks on Army supply lines; many soldiers have gone weeks without bathing, and have often been forced to go thirsty, because of this.

Llano, who describes himself as a Southern Baptist evangelist, sees this deprivation as an opportunity. "It's simple," he said in a recent Miami Herald article. "They want water. I have it, as long as they agree to get baptized." Said baptism involves listening to one of Llano's hour-and-a-half sermons, followed by a rite which requires another hour of Bible quotations, before the troops are allowed to bathe and drink. "You have to be aggressive to help people find themselves in God," says Llano.



On another part of the planet, a doctor from Boulder named Gene Bolles works as chief neurosurgeon at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany. His job is to repair, as best he can, the grievous wounds American soldiers have suffered during the war in Iraq. "We have had a number of really horrific injuries now from the war," Bolles said in an article from the Boulder Daily Camera. "They have lost arms, legs, hands, they have been burned, they have had significant brain injuries and peripheral nerve damage. These are young kids that are going to be, in some regards, changed for life. I don't feel that people realize that."

Bolles, who describes himself as a pacifist "opposed to any war," felt compelled to do what he could for his country after the attacks of September 11. He has learned, in very short order, what is really happening during the Bush administration's action in the Middle East. "The feeling here originally was, this is going to be over in a couple days," said Bolles. Instead, he has dealt with a steady torrent of wounded American soldiers. "It really is disgustingly sanitized on television," he said.

Back in America, some 500 anti-war protesters descended upon the Port of Oakland on Monday in California to stand against the conflict in a place where many of the war's supplies are shipped from. Nearby were several longshoremen who work the docks. The Oakland Police, facing the protesters, let loose with a fusillade of "non-lethal" crowd-controlling wooden dowels, which are about three inches wide and four inches thick, fired from stout steel launchers. Said launchers are emblazoned with the words, "Do not fire directly at persons as serious injury or death may result." The police also fired bean bags, concussion grenades and "sting grenades" ? rubber pellets accompanied by tear gas ? at the protesters.

One young woman was blasted in the jaw by one of these wooden bullets, which ricocheted into her neck and opened a bloody gash. Another protester was shot three times in the back by these dowels, which are supposed to be fired only when the armor-clad police feel threatened. The back wounds are indicative of only one thing: The protester was shot while fleeing, and a fleeing person is no threat to anyone but the grass he is running across. Several of the longshoremen were struck in the crossfire.

Tin soldiers and Bush is coming.

These are but three of the stories that have come to us through the mainstream media filter in the last 72 hours. They are a dismal trifecta speaking to the darkness of the age: A chaplain who abuses his position and the sanctity of his robe by bribing bedraggled soldiers into accepting his religion in order to get a cool drink in a combat-riven desert; a neurosurgeon up to his elbows in the blood of American children who knows, for an unassailable fact, that the war goes far worse than we are told; and a young woman in Oakland whose face was smashed because she dared to speak her mind.

The war goes on.

Here in Boston, the winter does not want to end. It started early, in mid-October, and has roared on and on with no sign of a letup. It snowed yesterday, again. It has been cold, and it has been raw. This has been, without question, the longest winter in my memory. Add to this a war without cause, an administration without shame, and an American people who have been fed a lie so verbose that their televisions can scarcely contain it.

The anthrax killer walks free, as does Osama bin Laden. The prime justification for this Iraq war, the existence of weapons of mass destruction, has been thoroughly downplayed and spun away because it has become clear that this premise was nonsense from the start. Soon, the term 'WMD will join said 'thraxer and said super-terrorist on the back shelf designated to hold all the stuff we're not supposed to care about anymore. Patriot Acts I and II wait liked coiled snakes for the opportunity to sink their venomous teeth into our constitutional body politic, a death blow that will come when the terrorism caused by our Iraq adventure makes its inevitable appearance on our shores.

I am forced to wonder if the flowers will ever bloom again.

William Rivers Pitt is a New York Times best-selling author of two books - "War On Iraq" (with Scott Ritter) available now from Context Books, and "The Greatest Sedition is Silence," now available at http://www.silenceissedition.com/ from Pluto Press. He teaches high school in Boston, MA.

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

Originally Posted by bubba

I believe this is the fourth turning we have started down that road, but the climax is years in the future. If you want me to hazard a guess as to what the issues will be I think it will have something to do with changing the Middle East, and a Manhattan Project style program to transition to a Hydrogen Economy. Here I freely admit I am engaging in rank speculation.

I'm down with this being the 4T, the climax being years off, and the transition to a Hydrogen Economy being a major issue of the next decade. I'm ambivalent about changing the Middle East being the major foreign policy issue in isolation--I suspect it will be part of a debate over the kind of globalization we will have.

BTW, Bubba, proper punctuation will do wonders for making me take you more seriously.

I also agree with Bubba's well-reasoned case for this being the 4T. Except....I am not sure that remaking the Middle East will necesarily be at the heart of the 4T Climax (though it's certainly possible that it may be). We are at the stage of this Crisis as we were in 1931 during the last. I don't believe that World War II was so easily foreseeable this early last time, not at least until after 1933 when Hitler came to power. It is therefore quite likely that the circa-2019 Climax will involve something completely unforseeable for at least the next two or three years-- although there will probably be indirect links to the Iraq War as there were between Hitler and the Great Depression.

Concerning the Hydrogen Economy...my guess is that the events of the Fourth Turning will spur us to develop the technology, but the actual transition to H2 from oil sounds to me like a Grand Project of The Next High, rather like the Interstate System was during the last one.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

Originally Posted by bubba

... If you want me to hazard a guess as to what the issues will be I think it will have something to do with changing the Middle East, and a Manhattan Project style program to transition to a Hydrogen Economy. Here I freely admit I am engaging in rank speculation.

I'm down with this being the 4T, the climax being years off, and the transition to a Hydrogen Economy being a major issue of the next decade...

Concerning the Hydrogen Economy...my guess is that the events of the Fourth Turning will spur us to develop the technology, but the actual transition to H2 from oil sounds to me like a Grand Project of The Next High, rather like the Interstate System was during the last one.

To get to an H2 Economy, you first need to EXTRACT it. That uses a bit more energy than the H2 contains, so you'll need to expand electrical generating capacity by a LOT. In turn, that still requires transmission lines or H2 transport - neither of which is simple or desirable.

I agree. We can't (won't) fix this until the next high.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

I also agree with Bubba's well-reasoned case for this being the 4T. Except....I am not sure that remaking the Middle East will necesarily be at the heart of the 4T Climax (though it's certainly possible that it may be).

I agree with Bubba's reasoning. It would be easier to understand Bubba, however, if he used proper English punctuation and sentence structure.

About the remaking of the middle-east-- I think that this fits into a larger agenda about how regions and nations deal with globalization. I think globalization as a system will the foundation of the next High just as the Cold War was the foundation of the last one.

We are at the stage of this Crisis as we were in 1931 during the last. I don't believe that World War II was so easily foreseeable this early last time, not at least until after 1933 when Hitler came to power. It is therefore quite likely that the circa-2019 Climax will involve something completely unforseeable for at least the next two or three years-- although there will probably be indirect links to the Iraq War as there were between Hitler and the Great Depression.

Agreed again! Iraq is really about one superpower and marginally about globalization. How this will fit into the climax of the crisis remains to be seen. That depends alot on other sparks of history.

Concerning the Hydrogen Economy...my guess is that the events of the Fourth Turning will spur us to develop the technology, but the actual transition to H2 from oil sounds to me like a Grand Project of The Next High, rather like the Interstate System was during the last one.

A qualified yes. The Manhatten project was part of the Crisis--and the development of H2 could be seen as part of this crisis. However, the infrastructure and the development of other technologies based on H2 would be part of the next High and are only dimly foreseeable at this point.

Came across this link on realiiity.com. It was from the issue that came out the week of Bush's inauguration. Be amazed and appalled at its accuracy and that 'The Onion' isn't as stupid as we might like to think!

http://www.theonion.com/onion3701/bush_nightmare.html

Originally Posted by mmailliw 8419

Originally Posted by Sean Love

Bubba and everyone else,

I thought Bubba's analysis was very interesting. On the point of our being in a fourth turning at this point, I have a comment and a question.

I agree that it is likely that the events of 9/11/01 triggered a 3T-to-4T transition, or that it will at least be seen that way in time. But . . . I can't get passed the idea that many of our society's reactions since 9/11/01 can still be interpreted as third turning reactions. What especially comes to mind is our reaction to World War One and the anarchist and immigration issues that came to the fore in the years immediately afterward and how similar that seems to today.

It is obvious that our society has been rumbling since 9/11 and I suspect that the tremors are associated with the beginnings of a major tectonic shift, but I cannot conclusively and exclusively connect the rumbling with evidence for a fourth turning, though again, in retrospect it may become obvious that it was so. I also see evidence of an intense third turning reaction.

I outlined my confusion in the "Phony Fourth" thread I started here in the Authors' Column section a few weeks ago. The condensed version of my proposal is that 9/11 is/was very likely the 4T trigger, thanks to its inherent intensity and its proximity to a 4T generational constellation (allignment).

HOWEVER, that being said, the constellation in question was still somewhat immature, i.e., not lined up quite yet with generational age locations that are conducive to a turning change. This premature triggering, instead of creating a Civil War style disaster, is instead manifesting as a (so far) relatively slow turning transition (the premature timing of the Civil War and its climax had more to do with the overarching length of Transcendental generation than anything else being "immature").

Now that doesn't mean our reactions can't be intense-- third turnings have given examples of intense societal reactions-- but the nature of those reactions today (intense or otherwise) seems to show signs of both a 3T and 4T nature, for now. Or more accurately, show signs that are indeterminant or that can be reasonably portrayed either way.

But the 4T aspect of this transition should become more apparent soon, and indeed the social reaction to Gulf War II seems to portend this. We are probably coming to the point where this transition will truly and obviously become one of those radical "sharp turns" of history on par with 1929-33, 1859-61, and 1773-76.

What do you all think about the dual nature of what we've seen over the past year-and-a-half, and what do you think about comparisons with our society's intense reactions in the years of 1917-20?

Wasn't at least one of those 3 periods (1859-61) determined to be 3T?

mmailliw 8419,

All three of the radical sharp turns discussed above were openings to fourth turnings. My point was that as far as I can tell the period from 9/11/01 to today so far does not necessarily fall into the same extraordinary category -- i.e., I have not seen signs that we are definitely in a fourth turning. Now, I am not arguing that we are not. Again, in the Phony Fourth thread (here in the Authors' Column), I posit that we probably are. What I am saying is that the past year-and-a-half seems to have similarities to BOTH those three 4T transitions mentioned above [1773-76, 1859-61, 1929-33] AND the intense 3T reaction we had in 1917-20.

My hunch is that the immaturity of the generational constellation is leading to a saecular limbo whereby we could have a long, strange transition.

Originally Posted by Sean Love

My hunch is that the immaturity of the generational constellation is leading to a saecular limbo whereby we could have a long, strange transition.

I tend to agree. Bush 43 does have a 4T sized idea, in that terrorist delivery of weapons of mass destruction will require a redefinition of when the international community must act in self defense. Still, an awful lot of folks are nowhere near ready to embrace this idea, which will likely need to be greatly altered.

After Afghanistan, I almost immediately heard hints of Iraq next. Now I'm hearing Israel / Palestine next, maybe North Korea, but it won't likely be another American invasion. I expect a decent sized pause before the next preemptive invasion, as nation building is tried in Iraq, and as Bush's foreign policy is debated in the 2004 elections.

As Sean suggests, a long strange transition. September 11th was an early catalyst. September 11th, the Afghanistan War and the Iraq War have seriously illustrated the problems we are facing. The problems of nation building will complete the illustrations. Like the Spanish Civil War and Bleeding Kansas, we are still warming up. We need time to digest the preliminary conflicts before we'll be ready to commit the nation's full strength towards a new vision.

Another factor that is often overlooked in this discussion is the steady synchronization of national saeculae(?) over the last seventy years. In fact, I would hypothesize that a global saeculum has emerged, driven by the steady ascendance of the global market over traditional national markets.

If my hypothesis is correct, then the pace of change evidenced in the US since 9/11, slow as it is, is even less hurried, less sharp and more conflicted at the global level, and idealist Bush's first effort to define the politics of the Boomer generation will not be the last.

My hypothesis also would support those who suggest that the Israeli-Palestinian question will be a central element in the 4T because this situation is the most significant, unresolved remnant of the age of nations (age of imperialism) and must be resolved in the course of the global 4T.

My hypothesis also suggests that nation-states and their applications of force (even that of the most mighty, the US) will not end up the most significant players in the global 4T emerging. It is the issues of global politics and culture that must be faced and resolved, and, though these often emanate from the actions of nation-states, they cannot be resolved within the framework of any single state nor, I suspect, within the framework of the world's federation of nation-states, the UN.

My guess is that the chief actors in the global marketplace -- the global corporations, NGOs and global citizens -- will have to find a way to address global problems that goes beyond the domain of states. In the end, I think the global financial services sector (big banks and insurance industries), which already conduct the vast majority of the world's business through electronic transactions rather than national currency exchanges, will have to impose a commercial transactions "tax" and allocate the revenues to a new, popular, global problem-soloving authority under the advice and consent of the world's citizens. Studies of the Tobin Tax already demonstrate that such a tax could provide the resources to address all our world's key global problems. What is lacking is a global political mechanism to press the demand and, then, to actuate it.

Originally Posted by sclark

My hypothesis also would support those who suggest that the Israeli-Palestinian question will be a central element in the 4T because this situation is the most significant, unresolved remnant of the age of nations (age of imperialism) and must be resolved in the course of the global 4T.

I agree that the Israeli-Palestinian question is going to be the focus of our mid-east policy for the next 10 years. I see this as very important to our relationship with the Muslim world.

I do not see us doing this one like Iraq. Rather, the U.S., because we are the power broker here, must encourage Israel to give up the settlements. Time is rapidly running out on this issue. Friends and relatives who have served in the IDF tell me that there is a general consensus among those serving in the West Bank especially, that the only reason that they are there is because of the settlers--and they (the soldiers, that is) resent what they are doing for the settlers.

The Palestinians need to be encouraged to seriously develop leadership and begin the process of state building. This is an area where international aid (both political and monetary) would be important. This can only happen with strong US leadership. I wonder though, if this is a 4T task or a task that will only be completed in the next High.

With the current state of technology Hydrogen is not practical major advances are needed, and I freely admit I could be completely wrong about this being a fourth turning issue.

I also could be completely wrong that our relationship with the Middle East will be a major issue of the crisis. Those who believe that a more global focus on WMD and our relationship with states that posess them can amass a lot of evidence to support that position.

What I am sure of is that we have turned a corner and are headed towards dealing with major issues in a different way.

I think the administration is going to turn its attention to the Israeli Palestinian issue and North Korea next. Like Mr. Levin states Israel is going to have to give up on the settlements and the Palestinians are going to have to develop competent political leadership and give up on ever getting back all of what they had. I think both parties are going to have to be pressured considerably.

However, solving this problem carries its own inherent dangers. Even if Israel did not exist the Arab states would for the most part be failed states. Israel is not the cause of most of the problems that the Arab countries face. If a solution to the Israeli Palestinian problem is found and nothing gets better in most of the Arab world how will they react? It is entirely possible that in the Arab world the Israeli Palestinian problem is the issue upon which a great deal of attention is focused, but not the true cause of many problems.

test.

Can you all view that picture. I am having problems loading the image.

Originally Posted by justmom

Can you all view that picture. I am having problems loading the image.

No, I can't view the picture. I haven't been able to figure out how to load pictures onto my posts yet, either, even though I've read the instructions and tried to replicate them. Marc Lamb and Stonewell Patton -- I'm jealous -- how do you do it? :evil:

Sorry, Maxine. It's not coming through for me, either. I even tried another browser and it didn't work.

It's an X in a little box, right? :wink:

Originally Posted by The Wonk

Originally Posted by justmom

Can you all view that picture. I am having problems loading the image.

No, I can't view the picture. I haven't been able to figure out how to load pictures onto my posts yet, either, even though I've read the instructions and tried to replicate them. Marc Lamb and Stonewell Patton -- I'm jealous -- how do you do it? :evil:

Jenny, what I've done is search out images on Google, copy the url into my clipboard and paste it into a post, using the "image" BBCode (it's one of those little boxes beneath the subject box).

I did it this way with a Tiananmen Square image.



You may want to click on "quote" to any post with an image in it so you can see how the code looks.

HTH

you forgot the headline:


STIRRING SYMBOL OF HUMAN SPIRIT DIFFICULT TO CLEAN FROM TANK TREAD


TK

another test....
I did the url thing, maybe the Yahoo page is not working right?



The image shows up for me until I 'refresh'.

I could try it this way.

Patriotic correctness in full bloom.

Originally Posted by Kiff '61

Patriotic correctness in full bloom.

[Ron] Shelton, the film's director, said: "I can't believe that this country has come to the point where people of disparate political opinions can't gather together to celebrate something we can all agree on -- baseball and films."

Actor Kevin Costner, a Republican who played a lead role in "Bull Durham, said in a statement: "I think Tim and Susan's courage is the type of courage that makes our democracy work. Pulling back this 'invite' is against the whole principle about what we fight for and profess to be about."

Originally Posted by Kiff '61

Patriotic correctness in full bloom.

http://www.freep.com/sports/albom/mitch13_20030413.htm

Originally Posted by Mitch Albom in the Detroit Free Press

I may not hold with things that Robbins and Sarandon say -- in fact, I don't -- but their right to say it and not be ostracized is a cherished tenet of American life.

Which is why these new "super patriots" like Petroskey are actually more un-American than the people they criticize. "Public figures, such as you," he wrote to Robbins and Sarandon, have an "obligation to act and speak responsibly."

"Responsibly" apparently means agreeing with him.

We're on dangerous ground here, folks. Rather than let hatemongers divide us into right and left, pro-war vs. antiwar, we ought to celebrate the things that bring us together: things like freedom, the right to speak our minds, and baseball.

Petroskey just struck out on three pitches.

Contact MITCH ALBOM at 313-223-4581 or albom@freepress.com.

Here's my evidence for today that we're in a 3T. Yesterday on the Daily Show they had a skit making fun about the absence of homefront sacrifice during the War on Iraq. How people don't have to do much but watch the war on TV, if they're not watching Survivor that is, etc. They actually brought up and reminisced over the memory of busyness on the homefront in WWII and with Rosy the Riveter. At the end of the skit, Jon asked, "But isn't it kind of a sacrifice for us not to be sacrificing anything?"

Did I do it right?