Originally Posted by Max

He was born in 1958. Solidly calls himself a Boomer. I see a lot of Jones in him. I'm 1968. So truely we are at the start and end of Jones, but, he likes his affiliation with Boom, God knows why. If I were Boom and there were
an aternative like Jones, I'd snap it up in a red hot second.
But, there you go......that's the X'r in me and the Boom in him.

Well, Max, if you believe, like Susan Brombacher (aka Heliotrope/Xoomer) and I do, that Jonesers are Boom/GenX cuspers and not a full generation, than your husband is both a Boomer and a Joneser. :wink:

Originally Posted by Jenny Genser

Originally Posted by Max

He was born in 1958. Solidly calls himself a Boomer. I see a lot of Jones in him. I'm 1968. So truely we are at the start and end of Jones, but, he likes his affiliation with Boom, God knows why. If I were Boom and there were
an aternative like Jones, I'd snap it up in a red hot second.
But, there you go......that's the X'r in me and the Boom in him.

Well, Max, if you believe, like Susan Brombacher (aka Heliotrope/Xoomer) and I do, that Jonesers are Boom/GenX cuspers and not a full generation, than your husband is both a Boomer and a Joneser. :wink:

Jenny, It's me, Justmom.

Originally Posted by Max

Originally Posted by Jenny Genser

Originally Posted by Max

He was born in 1958. Solidly calls himself a Boomer. I see a lot of Jones in him. I'm 1968. So truely we are at the start and end of Jones, but, he likes his affiliation with Boom, God knows why. If I were Boom and there were
an aternative like Jones, I'd snap it up in a red hot second.
But, there you go......that's the X'r in me and the Boom in him.

Well, Max, if you believe, like Susan Brombacher (aka Heliotrope/Xoomer) and I do, that Jonesers are Boom/GenX cuspers and not a full generation, than your husband is both a Boomer and a Joneser. :wink:

Jenny, It's me, Justmom.

I know, Maxine the Justmom. :wink:

An idea whose time has come?

American Magazine,
about, well, America

Celebrating how we live, light on the nostalgia

By Jeff Bercovici

In a nation where flag pins have become de rigeur on the lapels of newscasters and politicians and taking advantage of zero percent financing is every citizen?s patriotic duty, it was probably inevitable that somebody would launch something called American Magazine.
Somebody has. After two test issues, it?s set to go bimonthly starting in July. Initial circulation will be 100,000, thanks in large part to Wal-Mart, which agreed early on to carry the title in its stores.
But American Magazine, described by its founder as a celebration of the great aspects of life in America, is not quite the type of venture you might expect it to be.
For one thing, it?s not some post-9/11 cash-in. Mignonne Wright, the title?s editor in chief and publisher, notes that she has been developing the concept since May 2001 ? well before every storefront and SUV began flying the flag.
?I think anytime would have been great for this magazine,? says Wright, who runs the magazine out of Memphis, Tenn. ?Even before Sept. 11th, there was just this undertone of intense patriotism. It just brought it out.?
Moreover, American Magazine is not intended as some kind of nostalgia-fest, railing against superhighways and megastores, obsessed with a bygone, possibly mythic era of ethnically homogenous small towns where nobody locks his door.
Likewise, says Wright, it?s not meant to exalt the heartland over the metropolises of America. While it contains the expected tributes to baseball and carousels, it also examines such modern-day crazes as yoga and ?Trading Spaces.?
?One of the big things about America is that we always think yesterday was so much better than today,? she says. ?I don?t think it has to be ?old town, Main Street? to be a good thing.?
Editorially, the magazine will be divided into four sections: American Life, comprising articles about health, homes, money and culture; American Discovery, covering travel and history; American People, which is self-explanatory; and American Heroes, which will highlight the work of a national charity.
Stories in the two preview issues include ?Amazing Adventures in Your Own Hometown,? ?12 Things You Must Do Before Having Kids? and ?Satin, Tulle & Sweat: The Life of a Ballet Dancer.?
Prior to starting work on American Magazine, Wright and her father, Richard Wright, launched and sold a regional title, Southern Home Design.
Using the proceeds from the sale as seed money, they had begun to lay the groundwork for their next venture when her father was diagnosed with terminal cancer. A longtime publishing veteran, he spent his final months imparting his experience to his daughter as she geared up for the launch.
?He said to go to the bookstore and see what books were selling well, then go to the magazine stand and see if anything was missing,? recalls Wright.
The books that caught her eye were the ?Chicken Soup for the Soul? series, which offer inspirational stories in collections targeted to teenagers, mothers, Jews and other groups of readers.
Wright says American Magazine can best be likened to a cross between the Chicken Soup books and the old Saturday Evening Post. (Once an iconic general interest magazine, the Saturday Evening Post now focuses on providing medical information for older readers.)
She says that the magazine?s exclusive focus on feel-good stories has helped make it attractive to advertisers who are uncomfortable having their ads juxtaposed with war news and the like.
?I think there?s a place for reporting the news and what?s going on,? says Wright. ?We?re just trying to provide something that we don?t feel exists right now.?

Who is this planet?s worst international outlaw and killer?

If we took a worldwide poll right now, I think George W. Bush would win hands down. Most Americans think it?s Osama, ?cause he got us first and got us good, or Saddam, ?cause he?s just as bad.

When I entered this forum, right after 9/11, the Axis of Evil was ahead on the body count, something like a few thousand to one. But now Dubya?s America is ahead by a better margin. Soon more innocent lives will be posted on the scoreboard, numbering again well into the thousands. And everybody knows you can?t score if you don?t have the ball. The Israelis and the Palestinians are experts at this game; tit for tat with reckless abandon, as the ball changes hands.

America, my country ?tis of thee, sweet land of liberty: We can?t go around killing innocent people like they do over there in Bibleland. What are we, a new hoard of techno-Mongols or somethin'?

If there really is a God and He has Wrath?oh, boy, are we in for it!

Well, then, isn't "it" a 4T?

--Croaker

Originally Posted by Croaker'39

Who is this planet?s worst international outlaw and killer?

If we took a worldwide poll right now, I think George W. Bush would win hands down. Most Americans think it?s Osama, ?cause he got us first and got us good, or Saddam, ?cause he?s just as bad.

Even if they did vote that way, so what?

Well, then, isn't "it" a 4T?

--Croaker

No, it's late 3T.

Has anyone seen the story of a study that concludes that teachers are making more than lots of professional (architects, engineers)? This is the first indication I have seen of a counterpoint to the "teachers are underpaid" theme of the last generation.

This could be big, really big.

Originally Posted by monoghan

Has anyone seen the story of a study that concludes that teachers are making more than lots of professional (architects, engineers)? This is the first indication I have seen of a counterpoint to the "teachers are underpaid" theme of the last generation.

This could be big, really big.

Do you have a link?

The Wonk has lots of data questions. Primarily, is it based on salary differences among those who have jobs or do they average in the unemployed? The Wonk suspects that unemployment rates are higher among architects and engineers than among teachers. I don't know much about architects, but software engineers were hit hard by the dot.com bust and civil and environmental engineers hit hard by the State budget crises (ask our fellow poster Kevin Parker)! Since teachers are much less likely to be unemployed, if you look overall, you get fewer zeroes.

However, if salaries for entry-level or experienced public school teachers are indeed higher than for engineers, that would be surprising and big news.

Originally Posted by The Wonk

Originally Posted by monoghan

Has anyone seen the story of a study that concludes that teachers are making more than lots of professional (architects, engineers)? This is the first indication I have seen of a counterpoint to the "teachers are underpaid" theme of the last generation.

This could be big, really big.

Do you have a link?

The Wonk has lots of data questions. Primarily, is it based on salary differences among those who have jobs or do they average in the unemployed? The Wonk suspects that unemployment rates are higher among architects and engineers than among teachers. I don't know much about architects, but software engineers were hit hard by the dot.com bust and civil and environmental engineers hit hard by the State budget crises (ask our fellow poster Kevin Parker)! Since teachers are much less likely to be unemployed, if you look overall, you get fewer zeroes.

However, if salaries for entry-level or experienced public school teachers are indeed higher than for engineers, that would be surprising and big news.

I don't have the link but I saw it twice a few days ago.

I believe that the comparison was based on a per hour basis. Even granting that statistics may lie, the fact that someone put out such a headline was startling.

Originally Posted by monoghan

Originally Posted by The Wonk

Originally Posted by monoghan

Has anyone seen the story of a study that concludes that teachers are making more than lots of professional (architects, engineers)? This is the first indication I have seen of a counterpoint to the "teachers are underpaid" theme of the last generation.

This could be big, really big.

Do you have a link?

The Wonk has lots of data questions. Primarily, is it based on salary differences among those who have jobs or do they average in the unemployed? The Wonk suspects that unemployment rates are higher among architects and engineers than among teachers. I don't know much about architects, but software engineers were hit hard by the dot.com bust and civil and environmental engineers hit hard by the State budget crises (ask our fellow poster Kevin Parker)! Since teachers are much less likely to be unemployed, if you look overall, you get fewer zeroes.

However, if salaries for entry-level or experienced public school teachers are indeed higher than for engineers, that would be surprising and big news.

I don't have the link but I saw it twice a few days ago.

I believe that the comparison was based on a per hour basis. Even granting that statistics may lie, the fact that someone put out such a headline was startling.

Well, if they count "per hour" for teachers as only their hours in front of their students (i.e. 8:00 am to 2:45 pm in my daughter's case), the hourly rate for teachers would seem high. It may not include the time they spend preparing lessons, grading homework, and the like. Also, it wouldn't include summer.

Originally Posted by The Wonk

Well, if they count "per hour" for teachers as only their hours in front of their students (i.e. 8:00 am to 2:45 pm in my daughter's case), the hourly rate for teachers would seem high. It may not include the time they spend preparing lessons, grading homework, and the like. Also, it wouldn't include summer.

Yep. But at the same time, since most engineers (non-self-employed) are salaried, they wouldn't take the fact that it's no big deal for them to work 50-60 hour weeks into an hourly rate calculation, either.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Originally Posted by The Wonk

Well, if they count "per hour" for teachers as only their hours in front of their students (i.e. 8:00 am to 2:45 pm in my daughter's case), the hourly rate for teachers would seem high. It may not include the time they spend preparing lessons, grading homework, and the like. Also, it wouldn't include summer.

Yep. But at the same time, since most engineers (non-self-employed) are salaried, they wouldn't take the fact that it's no big deal for them to work 50-60 hour weeks into an hourly rate calculation, either.

Don't know about "most" engineers but over the course of my career I have always been paid for overtime, in addition to my salary. When I worked for Caltrans and the Washington State DOT, while it wasn't uncommon for us to periodically work 50 hour weeks, we were always paid time and a half. Even here in Ohio, where big-business-is-God, working for private companies that had contracts with State, City and County agencies, we were paid straight time for weekly hours worked over 40.

With so much honesty in this world, how could there ever be a 4T?

To wit:

?Oh, sorry, I just picked up the wrong bat.? Sammy of the Cubs

?Oh, sorry, I just didn?t know those stocks were heading south.? Martha of the Millions.

?Oh, sorry, I just thought Laci was wrapping Christmas presents.? Scott of the Petersons.

?Oh, sorry, I just thought they had WMDs.? George of the Jungle

?Oh, sorry, I just expected him to be a better amphibian.? Mother of the Croaker

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Don't know about "most" engineers but over the course of my career I have always been paid for overtime, in addition to my salary.

Interesting. As for me, I've been on salary since I started engineering (the company switched over in the early 80's when they were bought by Mercedes-Benz). Intel's engineers are salaried, as are those at Tektronix, Fujitsu, C2HM Hill, Fluor-Daniels, Consolidated MetCo, and most other major companies I am aware of. Maybe your experience pertains mainly to government-payroll (whether direct or contracted) engineers? I wonder how the rest of your package compares...

Raines and Boyd resign. Looks like a 4T indicator.


Responsibility for own actions.

Integrity counts.

"Crisis -era wars were all large, deadly and decisive. Homefront resolve conformed to the vision of elder leaders, and the outcome totally redifined the kingdom, nation or empire...Wars in a Fourth Turning find the broadest possible definition and are fought to unambiguous outcomes."
_The Fourth Turning_ page 119.
People, we have not seen wars like this since 1945...until now. North Korea survived the Korean War, North Vietnam actually beat us, and Saddam thumbed his nose at us for over a decade after the first Gulf War.
But the Taliban regime in Afganistan and Hussain in Iraq are history.
We be 4T.

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Originally Posted by Strauss and Howe

Crisis -era wars were all large, deadly and decisive. Homefront resolve conformed to the vision of elder leaders, and the outcome totally redifined the kingdom, nation or empire...Wars in a Fourth Turning find the broadest possible definition and are fought to unambiguous outcomes.
The Fourth Turning, page 119.

People, we have not seen wars like this since 1945...until now. North Korea survived the Korean War, North Vietnam actually beat us, and Saddam thumbed his nose at us for over a decade after the first Gulf War.
But the Taliban regime in Afganistan and Hussain in Iraq are history.
We be 4T.

Well, let's review the first sentence from S&H. I notice the words "large" and "deadly". Do you believe this applies to the "Battle of Iraq" or the "Afghanistan Incursion"?

We aren't there by this standard.

Originally Posted by monoghan

Raines and Boyd resign. Looks like a 4T indicator. Responsibility for own actions. Integrity counts.

Clinton was impeached. Looks like 4T's been here for awhile. Responsibility for own actions. Integrity still counts.

p.s. The 4T sign, I'll believe, is when the Times itself goes down in flames.

Originally Posted by David '47

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Originally Posted by Strauss and Howe

Crisis -era wars were all large, deadly and decisive. Homefront resolve conformed to the vision of elder leaders, and the outcome totally redifined the kingdom, nation or empire...Wars in a Fourth Turning find the broadest possible definition and are fought to unambiguous outcomes.
The Fourth Turning, page 119.

People, we have not seen wars like this since 1945...until now. North Korea survived the Korean War, North Vietnam actually beat us, and Saddam thumbed his nose at us for over a decade after the first Gulf War.
But the Taliban regime in Afganistan and Hussain in Iraq are history.
We be 4T.

Well, let's review the first sentence from S&H. I notice the words "large" and "deadly". Do you believe this applies to the "Battle of Iraq" or the "Afghanistan Incursion"?

We aren't there by this standard.

That depends on whether you are living in America, or living in Afghanistan or Iraq. The people there might have a different viewpoint than we do. And the reason the death toll is so low is because we went in with overwhelming superiority, instead of playing around like we did in the wars 1946-2000.

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Originally Posted by David '47

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Originally Posted by Strauss and Howe

Crisis -era wars were all large, deadly and decisive. Homefront resolve conformed to the vision of elder leaders, and the outcome totally redifined the kingdom, nation or empire...Wars in a Fourth Turning find the broadest possible definition and are fought to unambiguous outcomes.
The Fourth Turning, page 119.

People, we have not seen wars like this since 1945...until now. North Korea survived the Korean War, North Vietnam actually beat us, and Saddam thumbed his nose at us for over a decade after the first Gulf War.
But the Taliban regime in Afganistan and Hussain in Iraq are history.
We be 4T.

Well, let's review the first sentence from S&H. I notice the words "large" and "deadly". Do you believe this applies to the "Battle of Iraq" or the "Afghanistan Incursion"?

We aren't there by this standard.

That depends on whether you are living in America, or living in Afghanistan or Iraq. The people there might have a different viewpoint than we do. And the reason the death toll is so low is because we went in with overwhelming superiority, instead of playing around like we did in the wars 1946-2000.

We beat puhover enemies. Both were 2nd rate military actions against 3rd rate foes. We didn't win so much as they quit.

If either the Taliban or Saddam had been half as well liked by the average Afghani or Iraqi, they might have been aboe to fight a protracted war, possibly to a standstill. I would assume that future operations will involve such foes, unless we go after some of the worst African dictators.

Originally Posted by David '47

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Originally Posted by David '47

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Originally Posted by Strauss and Howe

Crisis -era wars were all large, deadly and decisive. Homefront resolve conformed to the vision of elder leaders, and the outcome totally redifined the kingdom, nation or empire...Wars in a Fourth Turning find the broadest possible definition and are fought to unambiguous outcomes.
The Fourth Turning, page 119.

People, we have not seen wars like this since 1945...until now. North Korea survived the Korean War, North Vietnam actually beat us, and Saddam thumbed his nose at us for over a decade after the first Gulf War.
But the Taliban regime in Afganistan and Hussain in Iraq are history.
We be 4T.

Well, let's review the first sentence from S&H. I notice the words "large" and "deadly". Do you believe this applies to the "Battle of Iraq" or the "Afghanistan Incursion"?

We aren't there by this standard.

That depends on whether you are living in America, or living in Afghanistan or Iraq. The people there might have a different viewpoint than we do. And the reason the death toll is so low is because we went in with overwhelming superiority, instead of playing around like we did in the wars 1946-2000.

We beat puhover enemies. Both were 2nd rate military actions against 3rd rate foes. We didn't win so much as they quit.

If either the Taliban or Saddam had been half as well liked by the average Afghani or Iraqi, they might have been aboe to fight a protracted war, possibly to a standstill. I would assume that future operations will involve such foes, unless we go after some of the worst African dictators.

Anyway, the test of 4T isn't how decisive the victory is but whether the war accomplishes anything. WWI was also a decisive defeat of the Germans, but the issues that led up to WWI were unresolved, setting the stage for WWII. WWII, on the other hand, led to a very stable European situation (and a stable Japan, too) that lasted from 1948 or so (once West Germany was no longer occupied) up until the fall of the Soviet Union.

I expect that the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan will be unsettled and unstable for a long time, until the resolution of the crisis.

Originally Posted by The Wonk

Originally Posted by David '47

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Originally Posted by David '47

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Originally Posted by Strauss and Howe

Crisis -era wars were all large, deadly and decisive. Homefront resolve conformed to the vision of elder leaders, and the outcome totally redifined the kingdom, nation or empire...Wars in a Fourth Turning find the broadest possible definition and are fought to unambiguous outcomes.
The Fourth Turning, page 119.

People, we have not seen wars like this since 1945...until now. North Korea survived the Korean War, North Vietnam actually beat us, and Saddam thumbed his nose at us for over a decade after the first Gulf War.
But the Taliban regime in Afganistan and Hussain in Iraq are history.
We be 4T.

Well, let's review the first sentence from S&H. I notice the words "large" and "deadly". Do you believe this applies to the "Battle of Iraq" or the "Afghanistan Incursion"?

We aren't there by this standard.

That depends on whether you are living in America, or living in Afghanistan or Iraq. The people there might have a different viewpoint than we do. And the reason the death toll is so low is because we went in with overwhelming superiority, instead of playing around like we did in the wars 1946-2000.

We beat puhover enemies. Both were 2nd rate military actions against 3rd rate foes. We didn't win so much as they quit.

If either the Taliban or Saddam had been half as well liked by the average Afghani or Iraqi, they might have been aboe to fight a protracted war, possibly to a standstill. I would assume that future operations will involve such foes, unless we go after some of the worst African dictators.

Anyway, the test of 4T isn't how decisive the victory is but whether the war accomplishes anything. WWI was also a decisive defeat of the Germans, but the issues that led up to WWI were unresolved, setting the stage for WWII. WWII, on the other hand, led to a very stable European situation (and a stable Japan, too) that lasted from 1948 or so (once West Germany was no longer occupied) up until the fall of the Soviet Union.

I expect that the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan will be unsettled and unstable for a long time, until the resolution of the crisis.

What were the "issues that led up to WWI" that went "unresolved"?

Originally Posted by David '47

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Originally Posted by Strauss and Howe

Crisis -era wars were all large, deadly and decisive. Homefront resolve conformed to the vision of elder leaders, and the outcome totally redifined the kingdom, nation or empire...Wars in a Fourth Turning find the broadest possible definition and are fought to unambiguous outcomes.
The Fourth Turning, page 119.

People, we have not seen wars like this since 1945...until now. North Korea survived the Korean War, North Vietnam actually beat us, and Saddam thumbed his nose at us for over a decade after the first Gulf War.
But the Taliban regime in Afganistan and Hussain in Iraq are history.
We be 4T.

Well, let's review the first sentence from S&H. I notice the words "large" and "deadly". Do you believe this applies to the "Battle of Iraq" or the "Afghanistan Incursion"?

We aren't there by this standard.

We certainly are not at the same place as WWII--which occurred at the end of the last 4T.

However, this does not mean that we are not at the beginning of a 4T. Remember that America's "total war" phase of the last 4T took place only during the last 3.5 years of the Crisis Period, which started, according to S&H with the stock market crash of 1939.

Originally Posted by Marc Lamb

What were the "issues that led up to WWI" that went "unresolved"?

They never did catch the terrorist group that financed Gavril Princip.

Nor was the issue of the relative dominance of European imperial powers resolved. Status quo ante bellum really doesn't resolve anything at all...

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Nor was the issue of the relative dominance of European imperial powers resolved. Status quo ante bellum really doesn't resolve anything at all...

They thought at the time that Versailles settled the above issue. However, looking back with 20/20 hindsight, all Versailles did was to infuriate Germany without permanently weakening it, thus Versailles went too far and yet not far enough - both at the same time, and in just the right combination to guarantee future trouble.