Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 291







Post#7251 at 08-12-2003 04:29 PM by Barbara [at 1931 Silent from Pleasantville joined Aug 2001 #posts 2,352]
---
08-12-2003, 04:29 PM #7251
Join Date
Aug 2001
Location
1931 Silent from Pleasantville
Posts
2,352

Re: Hate speech?

Quote Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari
Isn't the hatred shown our president just awful, especially when we face such serious challenges to our national security?

One major politician called the administration's policies an "abject national embarrassment."

A former national security official said the president "has squandered American credibility and undermined our preeminence around the world."

Another highly respected foreign policy expert said the administration "has not been able to distinguish between professorial concepts and foreign policy."

A key House leader insisted that "the president does not have the divine right of a king." He accused the administration of providing the public with "the spin, the whole spin, and nothing but the spin."

An important senator called the president "a jerk," and a House member said: "He still looks like a small man in a big office and an illegitimate president."

Terrible, terrible stuff. These politicians clearly don't know what the thoughtful conservative writer David Brooks knows: that politics should not take on a "lurid and emotional tone," and that it's self-defeating to indulge "the hypercharged tendency to believe the absolute worst about one's political opponents."





Why won't they stop?

In case someone does not read the linked article, the next paragraph reads:

Brooks, writing in the Weekly Standard in June, was trashing Democrats for their intense dislike of President Bush. But every one of the comments I cited above was an attack by a Republican on Bill Clinton when he was president.


Good one, Virgil. Had me fooled. :wink:
"Congress is not an ATM" - Senator Robert Byrd / "Democracy works.....against us" - Jon Stewart / "I'll reach out to everyone who shares our goals" - George W. Bush







Post#7252 at 08-12-2003 04:35 PM by Barbara [at 1931 Silent from Pleasantville joined Aug 2001 #posts 2,352]
---
08-12-2003, 04:35 PM #7252
Join Date
Aug 2001
Location
1931 Silent from Pleasantville
Posts
2,352

Re: Hate speech?

Quote Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus
Perhaps because we Americans are once more caught in the same downward spiral as we were back in the late Fifties - the late Eighteen Fifties, that is?
Well, Titus, it certainly looks sometimes like it is approaching that parallel universe.....
"Congress is not an ATM" - Senator Robert Byrd / "Democracy works.....against us" - Jon Stewart / "I'll reach out to everyone who shares our goals" - George W. Bush







Post#7253 at 08-14-2003 12:24 PM by Rain Man [at Bendigo, Australia joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,303]
---
08-14-2003, 12:24 PM #7253
Join Date
Jun 2001
Location
Bendigo, Australia
Posts
1,303

Why Arnold Schwarzenegger could lose

This article outlines some very good reason Arnold Schwarzenegger could lose the California Governor's race, because according to this article people are far more interested now in the issues, rather than celebrity politician. This could be a sign that the 4T has arrived in North America.

http://www.prospect.org/webfeatures/...y-m-08-13.html







Post#7254 at 08-14-2003 03:26 PM by Zola [at Massachusetts, USA joined Jun 2003 #posts 198]
---
08-14-2003, 03:26 PM #7254
Join Date
Jun 2003
Location
Massachusetts, USA
Posts
198

I don't believe that 4T has arrived yet. For one thing, the generations aren't properly lined up yet--as a first wave X-er, I only just turned 40 so technically I am (barely!) still a rising adult. We have only just filled the rising adult bracket completely.

For another thing, I don't yet see unity of purpose. A case in point is the Patriot Act. Yes, it was rammed through while people were still in shock and stunned, but it's not settling well now:

Ashcroft Planning Trip to Defend Patriot Act

I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.
1962 Cohort

Life With Zola







Post#7255 at 08-14-2003 07:23 PM by Prisoner 81591518 [at joined Mar 2003 #posts 2,460]
---
08-14-2003, 07:23 PM #7255
Join Date
Mar 2003
Posts
2,460

Has anyone else here heard how the people of NYC have responded to the power outage, at least so far? Where one would have expected mass looting and rioting to have broken out already, there has instead been mass cooperation, with total strangers trying to help each other cope. We be 4T, if that's any indication.







Post#7256 at 08-14-2003 07:26 PM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
---
08-14-2003, 07:26 PM #7256
Join Date
Sep 2002
Location
Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots
Posts
2,106

Quote Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus
Has anyone else here heard how the people of NYC have responded to the power outage, at least so far? Where one would have expected mass looting and rioting to have broken out already, there has instead been mass cooperation, with total strangers trying to help each other cope. We be 4T, if that's any indication.
That thought occured to me too. What if this had happened say, two summers ago?
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didnīt replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#7257 at 08-14-2003 07:35 PM by Mike [at joined Jun 2003 #posts 221]
---
08-14-2003, 07:35 PM #7257
Join Date
Jun 2003
Posts
221

What about Woodstock 99, wasn't that a mass cooperation of destruction?







Post#7258 at 08-14-2003 07:49 PM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
---
08-14-2003, 07:49 PM #7258
Join Date
Sep 2002
Location
Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots
Posts
2,106

Quote Originally Posted by Zola
I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.
The New Deal wasn't exactly accepted unconditionally.
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didnīt replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#7259 at 08-14-2003 07:58 PM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
---
08-14-2003, 07:58 PM #7259
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Minneapolis
Posts
1,622

Quote Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus
Has anyone else here heard how the people of NYC have responded to the power outage, at least so far? Where one would have expected mass looting and rioting to have broken out already, there has instead been mass cooperation, with total strangers trying to help each other cope. We be 4T, if that's any indication.
I think one reason is that its daytime.
1977: Nighttime, darkness on the streets, and mass looting.
2003: Daytime, sunlight, no looting yet.

If power's not on by nightfall in NYC, then it would be interesting if there wasn't looting.
1987 INTP







Post#7260 at 08-14-2003 08:40 PM by Zola [at Massachusetts, USA joined Jun 2003 #posts 198]
---
08-14-2003, 08:40 PM #7260
Join Date
Jun 2003
Location
Massachusetts, USA
Posts
198

Quote Originally Posted by John Taber 1972
Quote Originally Posted by Zola
I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.
The New Deal wasn't exactly accepted unconditionally.
No, but I don't think there was this groundswelling of opposition as there is for the Patriot Act. Furthermore, everyone isn't in agreement about Iraq, or Bush for that matter. I would expect to see more of a majority opinion forming if we were truly 4T
1962 Cohort

Life With Zola







Post#7261 at 08-14-2003 09:16 PM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
---
08-14-2003, 09:16 PM #7261
Join Date
Sep 2002
Location
Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots
Posts
2,106

Quote Originally Posted by Zola
Quote Originally Posted by John Taber 1972
Quote Originally Posted by Zola
I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.
The New Deal wasn't exactly accepted unconditionally.
No, but I don't think there was this groundswelling of opposition as there is for the Patriot Act. Furthermore, everyone isn't in agreement about Iraq, or Bush for that matter. I would expect to see more of a majority opinion forming if we were truly 4T
We most certainly have those in charge saying that those who disagree aren't really Americans. The thing that I hear the most is that those who have nothing to hide, have nothing to worry about. There may be opposition, but there are plenty of people who feel that the opposition ought to have their citizenship revoked. Nothing in the Constitution (and by the way, it didn't expire 11 Sep 2001, though the military thinks so) says that failing to kiss the President's feet constitutes treason.
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didnīt replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#7262 at 08-14-2003 09:24 PM by Zola [at Massachusetts, USA joined Jun 2003 #posts 198]
---
08-14-2003, 09:24 PM #7262
Join Date
Jun 2003
Location
Massachusetts, USA
Posts
198

Quote Originally Posted by John Taber 1972
We most certainly have those in charge saying that those who disagree aren't really Americans. The thing that I hear the most is that those who have nothing to hide, have nothing to worry about. There may be opposition, but there are plenty of people who feel that the opposition ought to have their citizenship revoked. Nothing in the Constitution (and by the way, it didn't expire 11 Sep 2001, though the military thinks so) says that failing to kiss the President's feet constitutes treason.
I think the people who say that are an extremist minority. Most people, even if they disagree, don't object to discussing an issue. My point was there is not really unity--there are still people saying that Bush stole the election, people who were formerly in favor of the war are now wondering if it was the best decision, and so forth. This would to my mind be more characteristic of 3T and parallel WWI in effects. We don't have a feeling we "won" in Iraq, we haven't seemed to gain anything by it, unlike the wars in other 4th Turnings.
1962 Cohort

Life With Zola







Post#7263 at 08-14-2003 10:29 PM by Rain Man [at Bendigo, Australia joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,303]
---
08-14-2003, 10:29 PM #7263
Join Date
Jun 2001
Location
Bendigo, Australia
Posts
1,303

Quote Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

I think one reason is that its daytime.
1977: Nighttime, darkness on the streets, and mass looting.
2003: Daytime, sunlight, no looting yet.

If power's not on by nightfall in NYC, then it would be interesting if there wasn't looting.
The scale of the looting will be a good indication of generational mood, if it is on the scale of 1977, then it is a 3T sign, if the scale of looting is a lot less than 1977, then it is a 4T sign.







Post#7264 at 08-14-2003 10:32 PM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
---
08-14-2003, 10:32 PM #7264
Join Date
Sep 2002
Location
Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots
Posts
2,106

Quote Originally Posted by AlexMnWi
If power's not on by nightfall in NYC, then it would be interesting if there wasn't looting.
It's starting to come on there, but Diane Sawyer reported that it got a bit tense as it started to get dark and people were still trying to walk home. It doesn't look like anything is happening there, or the other cities like Cleveland or Detroit (or a significant portion of North Jersey) that don't have power. Cleveland doesn't have water either.
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didnīt replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#7265 at 08-14-2003 10:35 PM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
---
08-14-2003, 10:35 PM #7265
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Minneapolis
Posts
1,622

Part of an article:

As darkness fell, city dwellers turned to candles and flashlights as scattered parts of the electrical grid came back on. People gobbled ice cream from street vendors before it melted, and gathered around battery-operated radios for updates.

Su Rya, 69, in batik shirt and shorts, guarded a store on 125th Street in Harlem. But when asked about talk that looting might break out, he said, "That's barbershop talk. It's a different generation now."

Marveled another man, "You can actually see the stars in New York City."
(Emphasis mine)
Thus far, a 4T sign. I still want to see what happens after midnight if streetlights aren't up yet.
1987 INTP







Post#7266 at 08-14-2003 10:45 PM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
---
08-14-2003, 10:45 PM #7266
Join Date
Sep 2002
Location
Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots
Posts
2,106

Quote Originally Posted by AlexMnWi
Thus far, a 4T sign. I still want to see what happens after midnight if streetlights aren't up yet.
Not that 4Ts are known for any lack of rioting. Still, I know if September 11th hadn't happened, things would be very different.

We shall see. Meanwhile my sister lives off Central Park West, without a land-line phone. (Can you hear me now?)
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didnīt replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#7267 at 08-15-2003 12:33 AM by Barbara [at 1931 Silent from Pleasantville joined Aug 2001 #posts 2,352]
---
08-15-2003, 12:33 AM #7267
Join Date
Aug 2001
Location
1931 Silent from Pleasantville
Posts
2,352

Quote Originally Posted by AlexMnWi
Part of an article:

As darkness fell, city dwellers turned to candles and flashlights as scattered parts of the electrical grid came back on. People gobbled ice cream from street vendors before it melted, and gathered around battery-operated radios for updates.

Su Rya, 69, in batik shirt and shorts, guarded a store on 125th Street in Harlem. But when asked about talk that looting might break out, he said, "That's barbershop talk. It's a different generation now."

Marveled another man, "You can actually see the stars in New York City."
(Emphasis mine)
Thus far, a 4T sign. I still want to see what happens after midnight if streetlights aren't up yet.

I admire your positive team mindset, Alex, as well as those interviewed, but I tend to see these positive reactions as relief and gratitude that it wasn't another 9/11, and not much else, other than the fact that these experienced New Yorkers certainly now know how to weather a catastrophe, and through their courage having been ingested by the rest of the country via TV 2 years ago, the other affected cities' citizens are following their lead.
"Congress is not an ATM" - Senator Robert Byrd / "Democracy works.....against us" - Jon Stewart / "I'll reach out to everyone who shares our goals" - George W. Bush







Post#7268 at 08-15-2003 12:49 AM by Barbara [at 1931 Silent from Pleasantville joined Aug 2001 #posts 2,352]
---
08-15-2003, 12:49 AM #7268
Join Date
Aug 2001
Location
1931 Silent from Pleasantville
Posts
2,352

Quote Originally Posted by John Taber 1972
Not that 4Ts are known for any lack of rioting.
You are certainly correct, sir.

Still, I know if September 11th hadn't happened, things would be very different. We shall see.
True, too (see my above post as to why IMO). If I were a NYorker, 9/11 would still be stomach-churningly vivid, especially so close to the anniversary. Habit (and the Hero behaviors that proved so successful and forged their new city identities) kicks in.

Interesting TV coverage notes:

Paula Zahn reporting on the scene in NYC - hair disheveled and unkempt, no makeup. Different, not bad, she's visually pleasing no matter what.

Gray Davis is now being used as an expert consultant to this blackout. Go figure. Hey, he does have experience with rolling blackouts.

Former Energy Sec. Bill Richardson is another. He maintained from first minute on-air this is a failure of eroding national grid infrastructure and lack of comprehensive energy policy that MUST be addressed to avoid repeats.

FBI is checking out possibility of an internet worm as a catalyst.

Niagra Project manager reports they've had power (been up) just about entire time, and there was no lightning strike, so they did not cause this, and in fact they only supply affected areas a max of 10% at one time.

The previously reported Con Ed fire in Midtown was only their smokestacks spewing black smoke when they brought plant down.
"Congress is not an ATM" - Senator Robert Byrd / "Democracy works.....against us" - Jon Stewart / "I'll reach out to everyone who shares our goals" - George W. Bush







Post#7269 at 08-15-2003 01:04 AM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
---
08-15-2003, 01:04 AM #7269
Join Date
Jun 2001
Location
Irish Hills, Michigan
Posts
1,997

Hi, gang. My power just came on and I survived. Time to get back to work.
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#7270 at 08-15-2003 04:01 AM by Barbara [at 1931 Silent from Pleasantville joined Aug 2001 #posts 2,352]
---
08-15-2003, 04:01 AM #7270
Join Date
Aug 2001
Location
1931 Silent from Pleasantville
Posts
2,352

Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59
Hi, gang. My power just came on and I survived. Time to get back to work.
All right! Congrats, Dr. Vince, stay cool. :wink:
"Congress is not an ATM" - Senator Robert Byrd / "Democracy works.....against us" - Jon Stewart / "I'll reach out to everyone who shares our goals" - George W. Bush







Post#7271 at 08-15-2003 04:02 AM by Barbara [at 1931 Silent from Pleasantville joined Aug 2001 #posts 2,352]
---
08-15-2003, 04:02 AM #7271
Join Date
Aug 2001
Location
1931 Silent from Pleasantville
Posts
2,352

There's a sniper alive and shooting in WV as we speak.
"Congress is not an ATM" - Senator Robert Byrd / "Democracy works.....against us" - Jon Stewart / "I'll reach out to everyone who shares our goals" - George W. Bush







Post#7272 at 08-15-2003 04:10 AM by Barbara [at 1931 Silent from Pleasantville joined Aug 2001 #posts 2,352]
---
08-15-2003, 04:10 AM #7272
Join Date
Aug 2001
Location
1931 Silent from Pleasantville
Posts
2,352

Quote Originally Posted by John Taber 1972
Quote Originally Posted by Zola
Quote Originally Posted by John Taber 1972
Quote Originally Posted by Zola
I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.
The New Deal wasn't exactly accepted unconditionally.
No, but I don't think there was this groundswelling of opposition as there is for the Patriot Act. Furthermore, everyone isn't in agreement about Iraq, or Bush for that matter. I would expect to see more of a majority opinion forming if we were truly 4T
We most certainly have those in charge saying that those who disagree aren't really Americans. The thing that I hear the most is that those who have nothing to hide, have nothing to worry about. There may be opposition, but there are plenty of people who feel that the opposition ought to have their citizenship revoked. Nothing in the Constitution (and by the way, it didn't expire 11 Sep 2001, though the military thinks so) says that failing to kiss the President's feet constitutes treason.

On the whole, reaction to the New Deal programs was one of huge relief and gratitude of a clear overwhelming majority of Americans who were hurting so bad that the bread crumbs they were being thrown tasted like caviar. Those opposed to it were in the clear uber-minority. Perhaps you are getting 1933 confused with 1938 or 1939.....

Some of you are just really chomping at the bit for it to be 4T, I have to say. :wink:
"Congress is not an ATM" - Senator Robert Byrd / "Democracy works.....against us" - Jon Stewart / "I'll reach out to everyone who shares our goals" - George W. Bush







Post#7273 at 08-15-2003 09:09 AM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
---
08-15-2003, 09:09 AM #7273
Join Date
Jun 2002
Location
Minneapolis
Posts
1,622

Well, a news report indicates 1 death and 1 injury in NYC, due all to a fire (the death was a guy who had a heart attack, the injury was a firefighter). Only one person injured all night suggests no looting. Of course, there has been talk on this thread that the cities and states most affected by a particular catalyst enter the 4T mood first, with the rest of the country following after a few years. NYC, with 9/11 happening right there, would definitely be in a 4T mood. Was there any rioting in any other cities, like in Detroit? How about Toronto?

I just realized something. If 9/11 is the catalyst, that would make two consecutive catalysts occurring within a mile of each other (1929 crash at NYSE, 9/11 at WTC). That makes for the catalysts being (in order) in Boston, Washington/(National 1860 election, if you believe that's the catalyst), New York, and New York.

If NYC gets the 2012 Olympics, would that be our equivalent to the 1939 World's Fair?
1987 INTP







Post#7274 at 08-15-2003 09:38 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
08-15-2003, 09:38 AM #7274
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Zola:

I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.
We are not yet at the 4T's regeneracy. It is inappropriate to compare measures undertaken by the Bush administration to those undertaken by FDR. A better comparison would be Herbert Hoover's refusal to extend direct federal relief payments to the unemployed, while providing federal funds for livestock feed, which occasioned a great deal of bitter commentary.







Post#7275 at 08-15-2003 10:34 AM by Zola [at Massachusetts, USA joined Jun 2003 #posts 198]
---
08-15-2003, 10:34 AM #7275
Join Date
Jun 2003
Location
Massachusetts, USA
Posts
198

Barbara, Brian.

I'm the one saying we're still in the 3T.

Quote Originally Posted by Zola
I don't believe that 4T has arrived yet. For one thing, the generations aren't properly lined up yet--as a first wave X-er, I only just turned 40 so technically I am (barely!) still a rising adult. We have only just filled the rising adult bracket completely.

For another thing, I don't yet see unity of purpose. A case in point is the Patriot Act. Yes, it was rammed through while people were still in shock and stunned, but it's not settling well now:

Ashcroft Planning Trip to Defend Patriot Act

I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.
Barbara, your point is well taken--it does seem to me like some are really in a hurry to get to the Crisis. This phenomena is not limited to this board, there is an earthquake site I visit where every rumble of a volcano or earthquake is surely a sign of the "end times"

Oddly, it seems to follow a regular cycle where people reach a peak of hysteria about every three to four months, then things settle down when nothing happens, only to have it return as a few posters manage to whip others into a frenzy.

I also see that particular phenomena as 3T--the Crisis is not yet revealed, yet on some level, we KNOW that it is coming, so there is a lot free-floating anxiety out there, exacerbated by the events of 9/11.

I think you are absolutely right about the New Yorkers' reaction to the outage. It's relief "oh, it's only an outage, not another attack! Thank goodness! It could have been so much worse!" I would imagine tempers will grow shorter the longer it progresses.
1962 Cohort

Life With Zola
-----------------------------------------