Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari

Isn't the hatred shown our president just awful, especially when we face such serious challenges to our national security?

One major politician called the administration's policies an "abject national embarrassment."

A former national security official said the president "has squandered American credibility and undermined our preeminence around the world."

Another highly respected foreign policy expert said the administration "has not been able to distinguish between professorial concepts and foreign policy."

A key House leader insisted that "the president does not have the divine right of a king." He accused the administration of providing the public with "the spin, the whole spin, and nothing but the spin."

An important senator called the president "a jerk," and a House member said: "He still looks like a small man in a big office and an illegitimate president."

Terrible, terrible stuff. These politicians clearly don't know what the thoughtful conservative writer David Brooks knows: that politics should not take on a "lurid and emotional tone," and that it's self-defeating to indulge "the hypercharged tendency to believe the absolute worst about one's political opponents."




Why won't they stop?

In case someone does not read the linked article, the next paragraph reads:

Brooks, writing in the Weekly Standard in June, was trashing Democrats for their intense dislike of President Bush. But every one of the comments I cited above was an attack by a Republican on Bill Clinton when he was president.


Good one, Virgil. Had me fooled. :wink:

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

Perhaps because we Americans are once more caught in the same downward spiral as we were back in the late Fifties - the late Eighteen Fifties, that is?

Well, Titus, it certainly looks sometimes like it is approaching that parallel universe.....

This article outlines some very good reason Arnold Schwarzenegger could lose the California Governor's race, because according to this article people are far more interested now in the issues, rather than celebrity politician. This could be a sign that the 4T has arrived in North America.

http://www.prospect.org/webfeatures/...y-m-08-13.html

I don't believe that 4T has arrived yet. For one thing, the generations aren't properly lined up yet--as a first wave X-er, I only just turned 40 so technically I am (barely!) still a rising adult. We have only just filled the rising adult bracket completely.

For another thing, I don't yet see unity of purpose. A case in point is the Patriot Act. Yes, it was rammed through while people were still in shock and stunned, but it's not settling well now:

Ashcroft Planning Trip to Defend Patriot Act

I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.

Has anyone else here heard how the people of NYC have responded to the power outage, at least so far? Where one would have expected mass looting and rioting to have broken out already, there has instead been mass cooperation, with total strangers trying to help each other cope. We be 4T, if that's any indication.

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

Has anyone else here heard how the people of NYC have responded to the power outage, at least so far? Where one would have expected mass looting and rioting to have broken out already, there has instead been mass cooperation, with total strangers trying to help each other cope. We be 4T, if that's any indication.

That thought occured to me too. What if this had happened say, two summers ago?

What about Woodstock 99, wasn't that a mass cooperation of destruction?

Originally Posted by Zola

I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.

The New Deal wasn't exactly accepted unconditionally.

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

Has anyone else here heard how the people of NYC have responded to the power outage, at least so far? Where one would have expected mass looting and rioting to have broken out already, there has instead been mass cooperation, with total strangers trying to help each other cope. We be 4T, if that's any indication.

I think one reason is that its daytime.
1977: Nighttime, darkness on the streets, and mass looting.
2003: Daytime, sunlight, no looting yet.

If power's not on by nightfall in NYC, then it would be interesting if there wasn't looting.

Originally Posted by John Taber 1972

Originally Posted by Zola

I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.

The New Deal wasn't exactly accepted unconditionally.

No, but I don't think there was this groundswelling of opposition as there is for the Patriot Act. Furthermore, everyone isn't in agreement about Iraq, or Bush for that matter. I would expect to see more of a majority opinion forming if we were truly 4T

Originally Posted by Zola

Originally Posted by John Taber 1972

Originally Posted by Zola

I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.

The New Deal wasn't exactly accepted unconditionally.

No, but I don't think there was this groundswelling of opposition as there is for the Patriot Act. Furthermore, everyone isn't in agreement about Iraq, or Bush for that matter. I would expect to see more of a majority opinion forming if we were truly 4T

We most certainly have those in charge saying that those who disagree aren't really Americans. The thing that I hear the most is that those who have nothing to hide, have nothing to worry about. There may be opposition, but there are plenty of people who feel that the opposition ought to have their citizenship revoked. Nothing in the Constitution (and by the way, it didn't expire 11 Sep 2001, though the military thinks so) says that failing to kiss the President's feet constitutes treason.

Originally Posted by John Taber 1972

We most certainly have those in charge saying that those who disagree aren't really Americans. The thing that I hear the most is that those who have nothing to hide, have nothing to worry about. There may be opposition, but there are plenty of people who feel that the opposition ought to have their citizenship revoked. Nothing in the Constitution (and by the way, it didn't expire 11 Sep 2001, though the military thinks so) says that failing to kiss the President's feet constitutes treason.

I think the people who say that are an extremist minority. Most people, even if they disagree, don't object to discussing an issue. My point was there is not really unity--there are still people saying that Bush stole the election, people who were formerly in favor of the war are now wondering if it was the best decision, and so forth. This would to my mind be more characteristic of 3T and parallel WWI in effects. We don't have a feeling we "won" in Iraq, we haven't seemed to gain anything by it, unlike the wars in other 4th Turnings.

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

I think one reason is that its daytime.
1977: Nighttime, darkness on the streets, and mass looting.
2003: Daytime, sunlight, no looting yet.

If power's not on by nightfall in NYC, then it would be interesting if there wasn't looting.

The scale of the looting will be a good indication of generational mood, if it is on the scale of 1977, then it is a 3T sign, if the scale of looting is a lot less than 1977, then it is a 4T sign.

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

If power's not on by nightfall in NYC, then it would be interesting if there wasn't looting.

It's starting to come on there, but Diane Sawyer reported that it got a bit tense as it started to get dark and people were still trying to walk home. It doesn't look like anything is happening there, or the other cities like Cleveland or Detroit (or a significant portion of North Jersey) that don't have power. Cleveland doesn't have water either.

Part of an article:

As darkness fell, city dwellers turned to candles and flashlights as scattered parts of the electrical grid came back on. People gobbled ice cream from street vendors before it melted, and gathered around battery-operated radios for updates.

Su Rya, 69, in batik shirt and shorts, guarded a store on 125th Street in Harlem. But when asked about talk that looting might break out, he said, "That's barbershop talk. It's a different generation now."

Marveled another man, "You can actually see the stars in New York City."

(Emphasis mine)
Thus far, a 4T sign. I still want to see what happens after midnight if streetlights aren't up yet.

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

Thus far, a 4T sign. I still want to see what happens after midnight if streetlights aren't up yet.

Not that 4Ts are known for any lack of rioting. Still, I know if September 11th hadn't happened, things would be very different.

We shall see. Meanwhile my sister lives off Central Park West, without a land-line phone. (Can you hear me now?)

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

Part of an article:

As darkness fell, city dwellers turned to candles and flashlights as scattered parts of the electrical grid came back on. People gobbled ice cream from street vendors before it melted, and gathered around battery-operated radios for updates.

Su Rya, 69, in batik shirt and shorts, guarded a store on 125th Street in Harlem. But when asked about talk that looting might break out, he said, "That's barbershop talk. It's a different generation now."

Marveled another man, "You can actually see the stars in New York City."

(Emphasis mine)
Thus far, a 4T sign. I still want to see what happens after midnight if streetlights aren't up yet.

I admire your positive team mindset, Alex, as well as those interviewed, but I tend to see these positive reactions as relief and gratitude that it wasn't another 9/11, and not much else, other than the fact that these experienced New Yorkers certainly now know how to weather a catastrophe, and through their courage having been ingested by the rest of the country via TV 2 years ago, the other affected cities' citizens are following their lead.

Originally Posted by John Taber 1972

Not that 4Ts are known for any lack of rioting.

You are certainly correct, sir.

Still, I know if September 11th hadn't happened, things would be very different. We shall see.

True, too (see my above post as to why IMO). If I were a NYorker, 9/11 would still be stomach-churningly vivid, especially so close to the anniversary. Habit (and the Hero behaviors that proved so successful and forged their new city identities) kicks in.

Interesting TV coverage notes:

Paula Zahn reporting on the scene in NYC - hair disheveled and unkempt, no makeup. Different, not bad, she's visually pleasing no matter what.

Gray Davis is now being used as an expert consultant to this blackout. Go figure. Hey, he does have experience with rolling blackouts.

Former Energy Sec. Bill Richardson is another. He maintained from first minute on-air this is a failure of eroding national grid infrastructure and lack of comprehensive energy policy that MUST be addressed to avoid repeats.

FBI is checking out possibility of an internet worm as a catalyst.

Niagra Project manager reports they've had power (been up) just about entire time, and there was no lightning strike, so they did not cause this, and in fact they only supply affected areas a max of 10% at one time.

The previously reported Con Ed fire in Midtown was only their smokestacks spewing black smoke when they brought plant down.

Hi, gang. My power just came on and I survived. Time to get back to work.

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

Hi, gang. My power just came on and I survived. Time to get back to work.

All right! Congrats, Dr. Vince, stay cool. :wink:

There's a sniper alive and shooting in WV as we speak.

Originally Posted by John Taber 1972

Originally Posted by Zola

Originally Posted by John Taber 1972

Originally Posted by Zola

I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.

The New Deal wasn't exactly accepted unconditionally.

No, but I don't think there was this groundswelling of opposition as there is for the Patriot Act. Furthermore, everyone isn't in agreement about Iraq, or Bush for that matter. I would expect to see more of a majority opinion forming if we were truly 4T

We most certainly have those in charge saying that those who disagree aren't really Americans. The thing that I hear the most is that those who have nothing to hide, have nothing to worry about. There may be opposition, but there are plenty of people who feel that the opposition ought to have their citizenship revoked. Nothing in the Constitution (and by the way, it didn't expire 11 Sep 2001, though the military thinks so) says that failing to kiss the President's feet constitutes treason.

On the whole, reaction to the New Deal programs was one of huge relief and gratitude of a clear overwhelming majority of Americans who were hurting so bad that the bread crumbs they were being thrown tasted like caviar. Those opposed to it were in the clear uber-minority. Perhaps you are getting 1933 confused with 1938 or 1939.....

Some of you are just really chomping at the bit for it to be 4T, I have to say. :wink:

Well, a news report indicates 1 death and 1 injury in NYC, due all to a fire (the death was a guy who had a heart attack, the injury was a firefighter). Only one person injured all night suggests no looting. Of course, there has been talk on this thread that the cities and states most affected by a particular catalyst enter the 4T mood first, with the rest of the country following after a few years. NYC, with 9/11 happening right there, would definitely be in a 4T mood. Was there any rioting in any other cities, like in Detroit? How about Toronto?

I just realized something. If 9/11 is the catalyst, that would make two consecutive catalysts occurring within a mile of each other (1929 crash at NYSE, 9/11 at WTC). That makes for the catalysts being (in order) in Boston, Washington/(National 1860 election, if you believe that's the catalyst), New York, and New York.

If NYC gets the 2012 Olympics, would that be our equivalent to the 1939 World's Fair?

Zola:

I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.

We are not yet at the 4T's regeneracy. It is inappropriate to compare measures undertaken by the Bush administration to those undertaken by FDR. A better comparison would be Herbert Hoover's refusal to extend direct federal relief payments to the unemployed, while providing federal funds for livestock feed, which occasioned a great deal of bitter commentary.

Barbara, Brian.

I'm the one saying we're still in the 3T.

Originally Posted by Zola

I don't believe that 4T has arrived yet. For one thing, the generations aren't properly lined up yet--as a first wave X-er, I only just turned 40 so technically I am (barely!) still a rising adult. We have only just filled the rising adult bracket completely.

For another thing, I don't yet see unity of purpose. A case in point is the Patriot Act. Yes, it was rammed through while people were still in shock and stunned, but it's not settling well now:

Ashcroft Planning Trip to Defend Patriot Act

I think that if we were truly in a 4T, there would have been a broad agreement that this law was necessary for protection.

Barbara, your point is well taken--it does seem to me like some are really in a hurry to get to the Crisis. This phenomena is not limited to this board, there is an earthquake site I visit where every rumble of a volcano or earthquake is surely a sign of the "end times"

Oddly, it seems to follow a regular cycle where people reach a peak of hysteria about every three to four months, then things settle down when nothing happens, only to have it return as a few posters manage to whip others into a frenzy.

I also see that particular phenomena as 3T--the Crisis is not yet revealed, yet on some level, we KNOW that it is coming, so there is a lot free-floating anxiety out there, exacerbated by the events of 9/11.

I think you are absolutely right about the New Yorkers' reaction to the outage. It's relief "oh, it's only an outage, not another attack! Thank goodness! It could have been so much worse!" I would imagine tempers will grow shorter the longer it progresses.