Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Not necessarily. I myself thought Bush and Blair were getting carried away with crusading thinking, a year ago, even as I agreed with the specific necessity of dealing with Hussein. I think we're seeing early hints of the sort of thinking later Boomer leaders are likely to try to bring to the table.

Bush and Blair's thinking is pretty realistic cautious, if we had Winston Churchill in power in the United States or Britain right now, there would have been a massive increase in defense spending, curtailing of civil liberties to fight Islamism to make the Patriot Act look tame, the whole Muslim world would have been invaded and occupied by western troops and then colonized over decades to reform them gradually to western ideas and values.

Also Winston Churchill would have to the conclusion that the nature of Islam fostered such terrorism and would have criticized Islam as a religion of war and would be calling for the mass conversion of the Muslim world to Christianity.

Originally Posted by Tristan Jones

....if we had Winston Churchill in power in the United States or Britain right now, there would have been....curtailing of civil liberties to fight Islamism to make the Patriot Act look tame, the whole Muslim world would have been invaded and occupied by western troops and then colonized over decades to reform them gradually to western ideas and values.

Also Winston Churchill would have to the conclusion that the nature of Islam fostered such terrorism and would have criticized Islam as a religion of war and would be calling for the mass conversion of the Muslim world to Christianity.

whoa.... good thing this churchill guy's dead then, huh?


TK

Originally Posted by [color=white

I, Pervert[/color]]

Originally Posted by [color=white

....[/color]]

http://www.houghi.org/jargon/sock-puppet.html

sock puppet n.

[Usenet: from the act of placing a sock over your hand and talking to it and pretending it's talking back] In Usenet parlance, a pseudo through which the puppeteer posts follow-ups to their own original message to give the appearance that a number of people support the views held in the original message.

Originally Posted by Sean Love

"Oh-lah-GGeh Naffa'am"

Any thoughts while we're wildly off-topic??

Yes! Thanks, Sean. I'm off to find that Latin-gone-Wild thread to interject this word there and see what happens. 8) :lol: :lol: :lol:


(Hey, I'm not making fun of you, it's just that what you were discussing is so far over my head and I'm in a bit of a silly mood today. Plus, I needed a really good word that looks really foreign....)

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68 on George Will

He's also periodically raised pretty much those same points. For that matter, I've been rereading a collection of his columns from the middle eighties of late, under the title of The Morning After. It's spooky how well many of them could just as easily apply to today. Twenty years, and in many ways nothing has changed. I wouldn't count on that stasis lasting much longer.

Yeah, periodically. My disappointment, but small point. Show more will, Will. Hurry up!

Having tried before unsuccessfully, I can't quite stick with a whole book of his, but I must say his Townhall.com archives are perfectly worthy. More current, too. Perhaps that's my problem with him (LOL), I expected more, true to his roots. I won't give up, though, his voice could get stronger, hopefully before much longer, yes.

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

Originally Posted by [color=white

I, Pervert[/color]]

Originally Posted by [color=white

....[/color]]

http://www.houghi.org/jargon/sock-puppet.html

sock puppet n.

[Usenet: from the act of placing a sock over your hand and talking to it and pretending it's talking back] In Usenet parlance, a pseudo through which the puppeteer posts follow-ups to their own original message to give the appearance that a number of people support the views held in the original message.

BWAAAAAAA!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
(I respond, while thinking about having to constantly look at that Brittney graphic, even though you meant more than that...)

Originally Posted by TrollKing

Originally Posted by Tristan Jones

....if we had Winston Churchill in power in the United States or Britain right now, there would have been....curtailing of civil liberties to fight Islamism to make the Patriot Act look tame, the whole Muslim world would have been invaded and occupied by western troops and then colonized over decades to reform them gradually to western ideas and values.

Also Winston Churchill would have to the conclusion that the nature of Islam fostered such terrorism and would have criticized Islam as a religion of war and would be calling for the mass conversion of the Muslim world to Christianity.

whoa.... good thing this churchill guy's dead then, huh?


TK

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously, Tristan, what makes you think we are not in the process of that, now? (Or, if your post was sarcasm, my apologies AND my admiration..... On second thought, my admiration sticks, regardless, Dude. You may well have just predicted the next 100 hundred years..... :o ).

8)

Originally Posted by Barbara

BWAAAAAAA!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
(I respond, while thinking about having to constantly look at that Brittney graphic, even though you meant more than that...)

a flashback from the locked thread of perverted delights

Originally Posted by [color=red

The Pervert[/color]]

On 2002-01-24 21:27, madscientist wrote:
Now I see even more value in a 4T. Circle jerks and cluster f**ks!?

How about "daisy chains"? Those are examples of cyclical group sex--sodomy in a ring!

Have we become such a society of pleasure seeking people?

*Snicker* I'd like to think so!

Maybe while we are at it, let's discuss "rimming" (South Park helps you learn new things. ).

You asked for it!

I'm sure that you older and more mature people will love to discuss the most discusting

You forgot to voice the internal velar plosive consonant, that is, if you're attempting to write "disgusting".

aspects of this practice we call "rimming". So, who wants to start?

I will! Muah, ha, ha!

On 2002-01-24 21:47, Kevin Parker '59 wrote:
Do I dare ask any of you guys what "rimming" refers to? I've heard the term, but am not sure exactly what it means.

Since everyone else is squeamish about it, I'll tell you that rimming or a rimjob is having your anus licked. I've had it done to me once--it was quite pleasurable! :wink:

[This Message was edited by: The Pervert on 2002-01-24 23:23 ]

if ya cant beat em join em

OK OK OK I'll promise to remain "Silent" about the Brittney graphic IF YOU WILL JUST promise NOT to create a RIMMING graphic,

PLEASE ?????

(nice pervert, nice pervert, down boy)

:o :o

:wink: :wink:

Originally Posted by Sean Love

Now Farsi is an Indo-European language and therefore should not have that sound. But I have discovered that Farsi has a whole bunch of Arabic loan words and I guess they borrowed the sound as well.

Any thoughts while we're wildly off-topic??

Your Persian friends were likely from Iran (I know I learned my smattering of Farsi from an Iranian neighbor). Farsi in fact uses an arabic alphabet. It's not surprising at all that they have that particular phonic.

As regards to "Indo-European languages", when it comes to phonics and phonic groupings, the "Indo-European" connection -- Greek, Latin, and Sanskrit ancestry-- is a bit too broad to be drawing conclusions. Consider the fact that, at that level, the other major alternative groupings are Sinic and Banthic -- many of whose constituents bear little phonetic similarity whatsoever!

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Originally Posted by Sean Love

Now Farsi is an Indo-European language and therefore should not have that sound. But I have discovered that Farsi has a whole bunch of Arabic loan words and I guess they borrowed the sound as well.

Any thoughts while we're wildly off-topic??

Your Persian friends were likely from Iran (I know I learned my smattering of Farsi from an Iranian neighbor). Farsi in fact uses an arabic alphabet. It's not surprising at all that they have that particular phonic.

As regards to "Indo-European languages", when it comes to phonics and phonic groupings, the "Indo-European" connection -- Greek, Latin, and Sanskrit ancestry-- is a bit too broad to be drawing conclusions. Consider the fact that, at that level, the other major alternative groupings are Sinic and Banthic -- many of whose constituents bear little phonetic similarity whatsoever!

Khele mamnoon, Hamvatan.

In my opinion we are still in the third turning (the dark/ugly end of the third turning).
The California recall follies are proof enough. Here's is a somewhat likely scenario for the next
20 years based on where we appear to be going.

Our economy will pick up somewhat including the stock market until 2005 when the real estate market finally
deflates (and prices). Then the S&P500 and Dow will chart lows below where they are today. The war on
terrorism will continue. We will have large conflicts growing with the Islamic world until least the end
of the decade. To fund it we will continue in deficit spending which that coupled with the real estate bubble
and the stock market downturn will decimate the economy.

After 2005 ethnic conflict will grow, exacerbated by mindless multiculturalism, illegal immigration, bad economy and low wages.
Already this is being seen in California yet covered up by the press and soon to spread to other states. Terror attacks on the East Coast
on New York and Washington DC may cause our nation's capital to be moved to a local such as Denver and
Wall Street to be operated by a Nazdaq like network out of Nebraska. Actually, Denver would be an ideal location
to have our capital.

After 2010 sections of the US will have resolved its ethnic issues once the government ends its open border policy
and rolls back affirmative action. The millennial generation at this time will start entering its 30's and will be more
civic in this regard than Gen X. The US, despite its strained resources and depleted job and economic base will still
be one of the worlds top two global powers, but somewhat less united and somewhat weaker from the two decades of PC thinking
that has eroded America's culture. From this point forward, our culture will be on an upward track as survival mode kicks in.

Typically, in the beginning of a fourthturning, there is civil strife during the first five years of the crisis. Economic downturns occur also. The type of civil strife could include militias, attacks on judges and ACLU lawyers by conservatives, attacks by liberals on
religious groups. Attacks by and between certain ethnic groups. Hispanics will be an interesting case in point. Most will and are deciding to join the mainstream - in California and the other states. Some (a significant minority of them) will decide to forgo American
culture and hope to turn the Southwest into "Aztlan" They will fail because their children would much rather live in a San Diego
than Tijuana. As for African Americans, anti-police riots at first will continue to increase in cities like Cincinnati, then they will dissipate as the
realization is that Jessie Jackson was really the one that wanted to keep them in bondage, not white America. The years 2005-2010 will be of brief ethnic discord. After 2012, America will see the wisdom in preserving much of its manufacturing as a national security issue - but not until then and not until the economy crashes. Instead of ethnic clashes, by this time we could see a middle class uprising cutting across ethnic lines as freshly minted college students will be frustrated by seeing their entry jobs disappear to India and China.

After 2015, China will have taken over Taiwan and other areas of Asia, included areas of Siberia that Russia demographically gave up. China may be in need of more land. The best real estate in the world for them is just a continent away. Their motivation has been to supplant us as the premier world power or hegemon. Heck, they talk about it now - how the 21st century will be theirs. This would also solve their male census imbalance problem. I can see them invading the US before 2025 via Alaska. We could start using tactical nukes. If China sends 200 million soldiers swarming over Siberia, Alaska, Canada and then the US. We will have killed a large portion of their army before they enter the lower 48. A lot will depend on the US anti-ballistic capabilities in the future. Still, at least 30 million will enter along with what air power they have (nanotechnology included). American technology and firepower will at last repel the invaders with a strong stand being taken in the center part of the US. Our SAC base in Omaha is in a great location. Hint, buy real estate in Colorado. After 2030, with the world in a shambles the rebuilding will began. A new golden age of civilization will dawn.

Please note that this scenario ends with the US surviving. We could also end during this cycle crisis period with the nation breaking down along civil - left/right or ethnic lines. Or China really could finish the USA (my gut tells me no though) or both. Europe could also make it easier for China to excel at our expense. I dont see us in a war with Europe, they don't have it in them. The UN will remain impotent.

Originally Posted by Dave Stafford

In my opinion we are still in the third turning (the dark/ugly end of the third turning).
The California recall follies are proof enough. Here's is a somewhat likely scenario for the next
20 years based on where we appear to be going.

Our economy will pick up somewhat including the stock market until 2005 when the real estate market finally
deflates (and prices). Then the S&P500 and Dow will chart lows below where they are today. The war on
terrorism will continue. We will have large conflicts growing with the Islamic world until least the end
of the decade. To fund it we will continue in deficit spending which that coupled with the real estate bubble
and the stock market downturn will decimate the economy.

After 2005 ethnic conflict will grow, exacerbated by mindless multiculturalism, illegal immigration, bad economy and low wages.
Already this is being seen in California yet covered up by the press and soon to spread to other states. Terror attacks on the East Coast
on New York and Washington DC may cause our nation's capital to be moved to a local such as Denver and
Wall Street to be operated by a Nazdaq like network out of Nebraska. Actually, Denver would be an ideal location
to have our capital.

After 2010 sections of the US will have resolved its ethnic issues once the government ends its open border policy
and rolls back affirmative action. The millennial generation at this time will start entering its 30's and will be more
civic in this regard than Gen X. The US, despite its strained resources and depleted job and economic base will still
be one of the worlds top two global powers, but somewhat less united and somewhat weaker from the two decades of PC thinking
that has eroded America's culture. From this point forward, our culture will be on an upward track as survival mode kicks in.

Typically, in the beginning of a fourthturning, there is civil strife during the first five years of the crisis. Economic downturns occur also. The type of civil strife could include militias, attacks on judges and ACLU lawyers by conservatives, attacks by liberals on
religious groups. Attacks by and between certain ethnic groups. Hispanics will be an interesting case in point. Most will and are deciding to join the mainstream - in California and the other states. Some (a significant minority of them) will decide to forgo American
culture and hope to turn the Southwest into "Aztlan" They will fail because their children would much rather live in a San Diego
than Tijuana. As for African Americans, anti-police riots at first will continue to increase in cities like Cincinnati, then they will dissipate as the
realization is that Jessie Jackson was really the one that wanted to keep them in bondage, not white America. The years 2005-2010 will be of brief ethnic discord. After 2012, America will see the wisdom in preserving much of its manufacturing as a national security issue - but not until then and not until the economy crashes. Instead of ethnic clashes, by this time we could see a middle class uprising cutting across ethnic lines as freshly minted college students will be frustrated by seeing their entry jobs disappear to India and China.

After 2015, China will have taken over Taiwan and other areas of Asia, included areas of Siberia that Russia demographically gave up. China may be in need of more land. The best real estate in the world for them is just a continent away. Their motivation has been to supplant us as the premier world power or hegemon. Heck, they talk about it now - how the 21st century will be theirs. This would also solve their male census imbalance problem. I can see them invading the US before 2025 via Alaska. We could start using tactical nukes. If China sends 200 million soldiers swarming over Siberia, Alaska, Canada and then the US. We will have killed a large portion of their army before they enter the lower 48. A lot will depend on the US anti-ballistic capabilities in the future. Still, at least 30 million will enter along with what air power they have (nanotechnology included). American technology and firepower will at last repel the invaders with a strong stand being taken in the center part of the US. Our SAC base in Omaha is in a great location. Hint, buy real estate in Colorado. After 2030, with the world in a shambles the rebuilding will began. A new golden age of civilization will dawn.

Please note that this scenario ends with the US surviving. We could also end during this cycle crisis period with the nation breaking down along civil - left/right or ethnic lines. Or China really could finish the USA (my gut tells me no though) or both. Europe could also make it easier for China to excel at our expense. I dont see us in a war with Europe, they don't have it in them. The UN will remain impotent.

I actually agree that much of what Dave has posted is possible, even likely, with a few exceptions:

1) That we are already in a Fourth Turning, with economically depressed cities like Seattle and Portland, and terror-threatened cities like New York and D.C., leading the way. The recession isn't over; it only looks that way because our leaders are lying to us about things like unemployment rates going down (because the figures conveniently don't include people that have stopped looking for work). The California follies and reality TV are only circus-sideshow diversions from...well, reality.

2) The middle-class and skilled working class rebellion against corporate America is going to happen, but it'll far overshadow any ethnic discontent that Dave sees happening and I do not. [At its root, PC and multiculturalism was always merely something for Americans to whine about, whether for or against, because nothing more important was going on.] This is because Xers and Millies, who would make up the bulk of angry rioters, are substantially less racist and more inclusive than Boomers or preceding generations to begin with.

3) I can see China possibly invading Russia-- or, far more likely-- purchasing Siberia from a cash-starved government in Moscow. But no way would they ever attempt to invade the U.S. It would be suicide for them. Before they even managed to take Anchorage, we wouldn't just bomb their troops, we'd nuke the shit out of the Chinese mainland. The Grand Fucking Tour-- Beijing, Shanghai, even Hong Kong would be reduced to gigantic sheets of molten plexiglas. And they know it.

I enjoyed both of your scenarios. However I have heard this invasion via Alaska-thing before, when I was about six years old and told about our relations with the U.S.S.R., so I just don't believe it at all.
I also don't think the Chinese will be able to keep order in all of their provinces, hypothetically purchased or currently existing, in order to facilitate that kind of empire building. Their whole western territories are composed of ethnic minorities who loathe their rule. The only reason the chinese were able to acquire these territories is because the minorities sold themselves out. They were offered protection and friendship by Mao.

--------

I think we must be in the last stages of a 3T. I do think the California recalls show us something about our country. Or how about this Ten Commandments fight in Alabama, or the Earth Liberation Front attacks on SUV dealerships in southern California?

While the current administrationw ould like to run on the war on terror, it is clear that America has many other issues to resolve.

It is now August 2003. Almost two years ago we had the attacks on America. Since that time I noticed the autumn of 2001 seemed very 4T like, but after that I feel we have relapsed into 3T. The war in Iraq, which is still going on, seems to be suffering from indecisive Silent leadership. I count Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Powell, all as part of these troubles in planning. The war through my eyes was a completely alienating event.
For most of my peers it was as well. They are the ones scurring around in the Big Apple shopping for employment. Most don't have health coverage and support themselves from temp job.

I would argue that an economic catastrophe would be the most accurate prediction for throwing America into a 4T. The economic safety net in America has been cut and cut and cut back some more. Companies have erased benefits. My great uncle who was born in 1919, fought in the South Pacific, and returned home to a job that he kept his entire life.
American corporations don't want to support their workers like that. They want them living on shoe string benefits plans - one step above temporary workers.

One giant economic catastrophe would really, really effect everyone in the US. 9-11 was, like the Iraq War, a televised event, except to the people in New York, Washington, and the families of those in the planes. Something like, 4000?, people died. In Iraq something like 200 American soldiers have been killed? maybe about 5000 wounded (some quite horrifically). It's going to take more blood and guts to wake America up from its 3T slumber.

In the words of my friends 9-11 was totally fucked up. And that's all - "totally fucked up."
If we have an economic crisis it will really hit America where it will drive America mad - in the big, fat, belly. Can you imagine a food or energy shortage for a people that consume more energy than countries twice its size? Can you imagine waiting on line for bread? How about trying to navigate to the Fourth Turning site and not being able to log on. Hell..not even having a computer that works?
People get panicky when the Yahoo is working for two hours.
Or when their cell phones can't get through.

So as for the 4T..we'll see.

I would like to correct my own post. As of today, 273 American troops have been killed in Iraq, more than double the number that had died when Bush announced the end of major combat on May 1 (135). 48 Britons have been reported KIA, 1 Dane, 24 UN personnel.
That's 346.
Add to that the 6113 MINIMUM from Iraq Body Count and you get:

6459

Add the MAXIMUM and you get:

8176.

So mathematically speaking, Iraq has been a far more desperate affair than 9-11. I haven't been provided with casualty lists from the Iraqi army's side.

Originally Posted by Dave Stafford

Our economy will pick up somewhat including the stock market until 2005 when the real estate market finally deflates (and prices). Then the S&P500 and Dow will chart lows below where they are today. The war on terrorism will continue. We will have large conflicts growing with the Islamic world until least the end of the decade. To fund it we will continue in deficit spending which that coupled with the real estate bubble and the stock market downturn will decimate the economy.

Here's the weak point of this scenario. The stock market had an excellent opportunity to score a great depreciation in the wake of the tech wreck. As for conflict in the Arab world, what do you call 911? Three thousand American dead. Since then we have fought two wars. Total American dead from both these Islamic wars is a tiny fraction of those who died in 911. President Bush is breaking the bank, but Reagan did so before. Most of what you project has already happened, yet you find conditions so mild we must still be in a 3T.

After 2005 ethnic conflict will grow, exacerbated by mindless multiculturalism, illegal immigration, bad economy and low wages. Already this is being seen in California yet covered up by the press and soon to spread to other states. Terror attacks on the East Coast
on New York and Washington DC may cause our nation's capital to be moved to a local such as Denver and Wall Street to be operated by a Nazdaq like network out of Nebraska. Actually, Denver would be an ideal location to have our capital.

Mindless muticulturalism, as you call it, has been an American staple for more than decade. Illegal immigration for far longer. Bad economy and low wages were the big issue in the 1970's and 1980's. Once again all the factors that you believe are going to create a big mess have been with us for a long long time. If they were going to create a big mess they would have done so a long time ago. In fact the perfect opportunity was in 1990 when out-of-cotnrol deficit spending and the savings and loan catastrophe threatened a financial crisis. This was when Ravi Batra was forecasting his "Great Depression of 1990". Consider, the public figure who most closely represents these views is Patrick Buchanan and he reached his high point in the early 1990's. Nativist opposition to foreigners coming and stealing our jobs and US companies exporting jobs to third world countries (i.e. the giant sucking sound) peaked with the Reform Party movement and the fight against NAFTA.

The rest seems to be wishful thinking.

Past traffic congestion here at www.fourthturning.com is dutifuly reported here:

Hey folks, that's a change of a whopping 253% in upward traffic movement!

Currently, this site is falling like the Titanic in the wake of an iceberg. It's traffic congestion is down a whopping 6,798% in the last few months.

Must mean we be 4t, eh? :-?

Originally Posted by ....

Past traffic congestion here at www.fourthturning.com is dutifuly reported here:

Hey folks, that's a change of a whopping 253% in upward traffic movement!

Currently, this site is falling like the Titanic in the wake of an iceberg. It's traffic congestion is down a whopping 6,798% in the last few months.

Must mean we be 4t, eh? :-?

Dear Mr. Periodicy, are you now a Progressive Proponent of HRH Numbers XIV? Are you becoming a majoritarian? A democrat? It doesn't add up. Do the XXX sites of I, Preverted (sp?) tastes have similar mood swings?

Originally Posted by ....

Past traffic congestion here at www.fourthturning.com is dutifuly reported here:

Hey folks, that's a change of a whopping 253% in upward traffic movement!

Currently, this site is falling like the Titanic in the wake of an iceberg. It's traffic congestion is down a whopping 6,798% in the last few months.

Must mean we be 4t, eh? :-?

Marc, I clicked your link and found humor in your comment, "I recall the days when 30-40 people were surfing this site, at any given moment. Today there are typically 2-6. Conclusion: What a boring 4T, huh?"

That's a good point, Mr. Dots. :wink:

Concerning the discussion resulting from Dave's post..... I've often wished that someone would come up with a computer or internet role-playing game themed on E2K's presidential term (the one GWB is serving). Don't those kinds of games present multiple outcomes for each player? It'd be particular interesting to play if assumed in the game's design that 911 was caused in part because of the Bush family ties with the binLadens, and that Gore wouldn't have had those liabilities. Of course, it could also be assumed that the Carlyle Group and all their activities over there are improving relations, but why should that have changed with Gore as president. To me, there'd have been no downside in that respect, because I think that BUSH 1 would have continued his work unchanged by a different E2K result. I just think that kind of format would be a great venue to explore that. I might even learn to play....... :wink:

Originally Posted by ....

Past traffic congestion here at www.fourthturning.com is dutifuly reported here:

Hey folks, that's a change of a whopping 253% in upward traffic movement!

Currently, this site is falling like the Titanic in the wake of an iceberg. It's traffic congestion is down a whopping 6,798% in the last few months.

Must mean we be 4t, eh? :-?

Actually daily viewship has dropped by 6,798 for this website over the last three months or about 5%, this site is clocking up over 10,000 hits a day. That number really amazes me, if we factor in multiple visits by the same people, this site could be visited by anywhere from 1,000 to 5,000 people daily.

More in depth info is here.

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/tr...rthturning.com

I surf this site more or less often depending both on what is happening in the world (bigger headlines make me come here more) and in my own life (distractions make me come less often). I have pretty much posted my own opinions on where we are in the cycle, so I mostly post when I see an article related to my fears of flashpoints like Korea or Kashmir.

It's summertime, folks! People are on vacation and not logging in as often. The same thing happened last year. Watch for the site to pick up again as the weather turns colder (and as E2004 heats up).

ooh that smell
can't you smell that smell
ooh that smell
can't you smell that smell
the smell of death surrounds you

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

It's summertime, folks! People are on vacation and not logging in as often. The same thing happened last year. Watch for the site to pick up again as the weather turns colder (and as E2004 heats up).

If election 2004 is as close as Election 2000 was, We can expect visitations to this site skyrocket. The drop in visits to this website is about 2% in 3 months, that can be attributed to seasonal variance.

On a related topic, I have seen website visits skyrocket in newspapers in Australia which have a centre-right very pro-American opinion (News Corporation, The Australian plus the capital city tabloids) and visits drop in newspapers which have a generally centre-left politically (The Age, Sydney Morning Herald), skeptical of being too close to the USA in foreign policy.

This is also reflected in newspaper sales, The Herald Sun which is a Melbourne/Victoria Newspaper sells more copies than The Age, Sydney Morning Herald and the Australian Financial Review combined.

Has anyone observed similar trends in regard to newspaper and television stations recently in the USA?