Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

I sort of agree with you on that. It would be a regeneracy but it isn't necessarily the definite path that we must take. I must admit, if I had to pick two people I'd like to see as GC, they'd be Bush (and 2009 replacement) and Dean. I know this seems weird since they are politically very different, but they both have the tone of a GC, and their platforms involve change. I just want some party to win already, so an agenda can be enacted. IMO, either could be enacted and it would be for the better, as opposed to no agenda being enacted.

What you've already revealed about your frustation, BTW, identifies you as a S&H core Civic, politically, and reminds me of many a GI mindset....

But I have some questions if you would elaborate. Just dealing with the present, as to your perspective, am I to presume then that you would like there to be a clear majority in Congress of such that would enact anything GWB wants when you say you just want some party to win already? This is the only direction I can go when trying to understand what you posted and then apply it. I also assume you don't think one party has already won? You do not think GWB has an agenda that has been enacted?

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

I sort of agree with you on that. It would be a regeneracy but it isn't necessarily the definite path that we must take. I must admit, if I had to pick two people I'd like to see as GC, they'd be Bush (and 2009 replacement) and Dean. I know this seems weird since they are politically very different, but they both have the tone of a GC, and their platforms involve change. I just want some party to win already, so an agenda can be enacted. IMO, either could be enacted and it would be for the better, as opposed to no agenda being enacted.

What you've already revealed about your frustation, BTW, identifies you as a S&H core Civic, politically, and reminds me of many a GI mindset....

But I have some questions if you would elaborate. Just dealing with the present, as to your perspective, am I to presume then that you would like there to be a clear majority in Congress of such that would enact anything GWB wants when you say you just want some party to win already? This is the only direction I can go when trying to understand what you posted and then apply it. I also assume you don't think one party has already won? You do not think GWB has an agenda that has been enacted?

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

(Emphasis added.) If Dean wins the presidency, and acts upon this, that should be sufficient evidence that not only are we in a Fourth Turning but the regeneracy has arrived.

Well it is nice to see somebody advocating long term solutions to some major problems the world is facing. Regardless of who ever wins the presidency, I am predicting it will be a Dean versus Bush match up in 2004, I think I could be right I correctly predicted in early 2001 Hillary Clinton would win her senate race in New York state.

Anyway I think the regeneracy stage might start with the aftermath of the 2004 presidental election. The person who wins the 2004 election and acts upon what they promised are going to have their fair share of critics and will have a allmighty fight on their hands. 4T's can be very divisive times politically and in societies that aren't democratic it often leads to civil war. The Americian and French Revoultions, The Spanish Civil War are good examples of 4T political conflict becoming an actual war.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

(Emphasis added.) If Dean wins the presidency, and acts upon this, that should be sufficient evidence that not only are we in a Fourth Turning but the regeneracy has arrived.

Well it is nice to see somebody advocating long term solutions to some major problems the world is facing. Regardless of who ever wins the presidency, I am predicting it will be a Dean versus Bush match up in 2004, I think I could be right I correctly predicted in early 2001 Hillary Clinton would win her senate race in New York state.

Anyway I think the regeneracy stage might start with the aftermath of the 2004 presidental election. The person who wins the 2004 election and acts upon what they promised are going to have their fair share of critics and will have a allmighty fight on their hands. 4T's can be very divisive times politically and in societies that aren't democratic it often leads to civil war. The Americian and French Revoultions, The Spanish Civil War are good examples of 4T political conflict becoming an actual war.

Tristan, Hillary was elected before early 2001...

Tristan, Hillary was elected before early 2001...

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

Tristan, Hillary was elected before early 2001...

Oops I should have said early 2000.

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

Tristan, Hillary was elected before early 2001...

Oops I should have said early 2000.

So for the younger generations, it should be this year. I don't think, though, that anything that could happen this year or next will be as much of a shock to the system as September 11th was, no matter how big it is.
_________________
Oh, how about a dirty bomb in Chicago's Loop, or terrorists releasing smallpox, or a private plane loaded with VX and a suicide pilot crashing into the Super Bowl, or...

So for the younger generations, it should be this year. I don't think, though, that anything that could happen this year or next will be as much of a shock to the system as September 11th was, no matter how big it is.
_________________
Oh, how about a dirty bomb in Chicago's Loop, or terrorists releasing smallpox, or a private plane loaded with VX and a suicide pilot crashing into the Super Bowl, or...

Here's one for the blessed many who enjoy their herbs with a latte something or other.

Should Our Leaders Be Amateurs?
By E. J. Dionne Jr.
Sunday, September 21, 2003; Page B01

Machine politicians are fond of recounting the story of an old political hack who had held office for many years. He was known for playing it too close to the edge where the law was concerned -- but well-loved for delivering lots of goodies to his constituents. One year, he found himself in the middle of yet another scandal as Election Day approached. His managers groped for a new slogan in the final weeks of the campaign. Their inspiration: "Honesty is No Substitute for Experience."

In this political fable, experience and the old hack prevail. But the truth is that Americans are opportunistic, fickle and capricious on the subject of experience in politics -- which also means that we are practical and sensible. There are times when the voters are looking for a plumber, mechanic or doctor. The idea is to hire someone with a long track record who can fix problems and keep an eye on things. There are other moments when voters yearn for a preacher, an actor, a general -- even a wrestler -- who might lift their spirits by offering vision, or just by being different.

Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark, who announced his presidential candidacy last week, hopes this will be one of those moments. If elective office is the only relevant "experience" for the White House, Clark is a sure loser. As Ron Fournier of the Associated Press pointed out, Clark never even ran for student council. But for many Americans, that might be one of his strongest qualifications.

Occasionally, voters get so mad at the reliable mechanic (especially when one can't fix things) that they will turn to absolutely anybody. Which brings us to the case of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Gov. Gray Davis and the California recall election, which will happen whenever the courts decide it should happen. Rarely has an electorate executed such a neck-snapping swing on the subject of experience.

When Democrat Davis was planning his 1998 campaign for governor, his advisers did an elaborate poll of what the state's voters were looking for at that moment, when the economy was booming. Though reasonably content, voters wanted some change after 16 years of Republican rule. But above all, they wanted a seasoned manager who could keep things running smoothly. Davis was unexciting, but boy did he have experience -- he was the incumbent lieutenant governor, former state controller, a former member of the state assembly and chief of staff to Gov. Jerry Brown in the 1970s. His official bio quotes the San Jose Mercury News, which called him "perhaps the best-trained governor-in-waiting California has ever produced." He promised moderation and quiet competence.

Still, Davis was the underdog in the primary because he faced two opponents who were pouring millions of their family fortunes into advertising. And Davis was, well, boring. But two things happened: Davis's opponents cut each other to shreds, and Davis's aides found the perfect campaign slogan: "Experience Money Can't Buy."

Davis swept both the primary and the general election and, in his early years, delivered exactly what he promised, which included some education reform and a lot of moderation. As long as the economic boom continued, the voters, while never in love with Davis, liked him just fine.

Then came the energy crisis and the high-tech crash. That meant big deficits and lousy choices. Davis essentially offered voters the quiet life. He -- and they -- suddenly faced interesting times, a k a an economic and budgetary catastrophe. Republicans seized their opening. Goodbye, Mr. Fixit. Hello, Recall Campaign.

And Greetings to the Terminator, or "Arnold," as his campaign posters call him. It's said, correctly, that Arnold has no government experience beyond his time on a couple of physical fitness commissions -- i.e., no government experience. It's said, correctly, that Arnold has, so far, offered remarkably few specifics on what he'd do to get out of the state's budget mess. He just says he won't do difficult things like raise taxes. And since he has never, ever had to cast a hard vote on some budget choice, he is absolutely free to say anything -- or, more importantly, practically nothing. Arnold has the kind of inexperience Davis wishes he now could buy.

Indeed, Arnold was perfectly happy to leave his chair empty at a debate last week and continues to play the Mr. Smith-Goes-to-Sacramento character. Instead of specifics, he offers strength and vision. "No one has painted a picture for the people and said, 'Here is where we want to be,' " he told the directors of the state Chamber of Commerce earlier this month. "Everyone keeps talking about details, details, details," he said. "Sacramento has warehouses of details. What they lack is leadership. What they need is backbone."

Old gray Gray gets stuck with those wretched details. Who needs that experience?

In truth, experience has always been a slippery concept in American politics. For one thing, experience is no substitute for ability. When Republican Party bosses picked Sen. Warren G. Harding of Ohio as their presidential nominee on the 10th ballot in 1920, they were nominating an amiable cipher. "Harding had no qualification for being president except that he looked like one," wrote historian William E. Leuchtenburg, even though Harding had held several public offices. Democrat William McAdoo memorably said that Harding's speeches "leave the impression of an army of pompous phrases moving over the landscape in search of an idea; sometimes these meandering words would actually capture a straggling thought and bear it triumphantly, a prisoner in their midst, until it died of servitude and overwork."

But this was Harding's greatest asset. Americans had just had plenty of ideas and experience from Woodrow Wilson, including World War I and its disappointing aftermath. Harding gave Americans little to be against, promised "normalcy," and that was enough to win him a landslide.

In 1960, Richard M. Nixon based much of his campaign against John F. Kennedy on the experience issue. Both men had been elected to Congress in the same year, but Nixon was an exceptionally high-profile vice president and was seen as having lots of know-how in foreign policy. Kennedy had not made much of a mark on the Senate.

Nonetheless, Kennedy was a Democrat in what was still a New Deal country. He offered verve and drive and vision galore, even if the vision was a bit gauzy. Nixon tried to get past the party labels and glitz by being safe, sound -- and, well, experienced. "Because Experience Counts" became one of his main slogans. The 1960 result was one of the closest in U.S. history -- a virtual tie between experience and its competitor.

The big difference between 1960 and now is that the country has gone through one merciless anti-Washington campaign after another. Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and now Howard Dean -- all, in one way or another, tried to turn Washington experience into a form of leprosy.

It's enough to make a grown member of Congress cry -- and protest.

Here's Rep. Richard A. Gephardt, the Democratic presidential candidate, who was first elected to Congress in 1976: "I'm not going to say what's fashionable in our politics -- that I'm a Washington outsider, that I couldn't find the nation's capital on a map, that I have no experience in the highest levels of government," said the former House Democratic leader in announcing his presidential candidacy. "I do, and I think experience matters. It's what our nation needs right now."

Yet what, exactly, constitutes "experience"? You can think of certain candidates -- among them Gephardt, Joseph Lieberman, John Kerry, Bob Graham, John Edwards, Howard Dean, Carol Mosley Braun and Dennis Kucinich -- who say elective office is an asset. That would seem to leave out a general like Clark. Generals are used to having people follow orders, which could make matters dicey with, say, Congress and the voters. Clark has no professional experience with domestic issues, and acknowledged to reporters on Thursday that he had few specific policy ideas to offer at the moment. More experience might have prevented his embarrassing flip-flop last week -- first he said he probably would have voted for the congressional resolution authorizing President Bush to go to war in Iraq, then he reversed himself the next day.

Yet if the presidency is in part about command, who better than a former general? George Washington, Andrew Jackson and Dwight D. Eisenhower were no slouches. How many senators have ever run things? In the wake of 9/11, which "experience" is more relevant -- Clark's in foreign policy and war, Howard Dean's as a chief executive, albeit of a small state, or the extensive legislative experience of most of the rest of the field? (Senator Graham, former governor of Florida, can claim both executive and legislative experience, but it hasn't helped him in the polls so far.)

The fact that "experience" is itself a mushy concept becomes even clearer if you consider this question: Was George W. Bush's six years' experience as a governor sufficient to prepare him for the presidency? Ask any dozen people and I bet you an old Nixon button that their answers break down almost entirely along party lines -- proving that experience can have little to do with our view of "experience."

That we are terribly ambivalent about experience is brought home by our vacillation between the Cincinnatus and Richard J. Daley models of leadership. Our hearts regularly go to the proud and independent person who has never been soiled by politics or compromise and comes to our rescue out of nowhere. This sort of character (Jesse Ventura played him on TV) appeals to our mistrust of politics and our desire to escape it.

The Daley model, as in the legendary Chicago mayor, plays to our heads. We want someone who knows the ropes, can get things done, and has been inside the system long enough to know what works and what doesn't. We're not inspired by such leaders, but we do like it when they clean the streets, fix health care or balance the budget.

Right now, I suspect that Americans are looking for a bit of both at the presidential level -- an inspiring leader to deal with our insecurity and fears of terrorism, and an experienced leader who can fix the economy and, if it continues, the disarray in Iraq. Bush became the first kind of leader after 9/11. He faces the danger of looking like neither in 2004. As for the Democrats, their contest in the primaries will rest in part on a struggle over which kind of leader the party most needs -- even as all the candidates try to claim that they are visionaries of an experienced and practical sort.

Meanwhile, back in California, Arnold continues to count on the virtues of inexperience. Will it work? Though Davis is still not liked very much, he has enjoyed a modest resurgence in the polls as voters consider whether the budget mess is, in fact, one of those tedious problems for which experience may be necessary after all. And Arnold has been hounded by a staunch conservative, Republican State Sen. Tom McClintock, who offers two things Arnold doesn't have: a clear philosophical identity and -- experience. McClintock loves to bait Schwarzenegger for his refusal to be specific. The conservative manages to combine vision -- in his case of an austere state government -- with "details, details, details."

And thus the final irony: If McClintock and Schwarzenegger split the GOP vote and Davis still loses the recall, it's possible that the next governor of California will be Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante. He doesn't claim to be a visionary, doesn't offer much charisma, and presents a rather modest ideological profile -- but he has lots and lots of experience in government. Bustamante had the experience to know when opportunity was knocking. And that could be enough. It would be a strange ending to a campaign that began as a revolt against experience.

Author's e-mail: postchat@aol.com

E.J. Dionne is a Washington Post columnist, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a professor at Georgetown University.

http://www.seattleweekly.com/feature...ews-berger.php

Sounds like a Xer wrote this piece.

The Perfect Excuse
When things go wrong, blame it on the storm.
by Knute Berger

THE TERM HAS BECOME such a clich?, it?s probably clich? to even complain about it. ?The perfect storm,? a phrase popularized by Sebastian Junger?s book of that title, has become the go-to explanation anytime an unpleasantness arrives. In fact, in this troubled world, the ?perfect storm? seems to be the only thing that is perfect these days. In durability and imprecision, call it a Category 5 metaphor.

When Seattle City Light had major problems and whacked city residents with massive rate increases, who was to blame? Not City Light, of course, but ?a perfect storm? in the energy market. Perfect storms continue to rock the energy business. One was blamed for the recent Northeastern power blackout.

This week, as many folks awaited the arrival of Hurricane Isabel, perfect storms were already wreaking havoc from coast to coast, cutting a swath through American life. Not the least of which was the storm that exposed the fact that plywood prices have risen dramatically in recent months, making it more expensive to board up storm-threatened storefronts. How come? According to the Sept. 13 Chicago Tribune, plywood was skyrocketing because of a ?perfect storm? in the forest-products industry. Thus, the perfect storm begat a perfect storm.

But the storm clouds extend well beyond your local lumberyard.

What describes America?s plunge from trillion-dollar budget surpluses to trillion-dollar deficits? According to an economist quoted in the Sept. 14 New York Times, it was ?the perfect fiscal storm.?

America?s pension plans are on the brink of collapse. How come? According to the Sept. 13 edition of The Economist, a Bush administration official points to a ?perfect storm.?

Al Qaeda seems to be holding up pretty well. Why? A terror expert told The Associated Press on Sept. 11 that the current environment is the ?perfect storm? for generating Islamic terrorists.

How will these trends affect President Bush?s chances for re-election? Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina was quoted by CNN on Sept. 11 as warning that a ?perfect storm? might be brewing for the president and Republicans in 2004. One can only hope.

THE PERFECT STORM has left its mark on other fronts, too. The New Orleans Times-Picayune reported on Sept. 6 that Bishop Wilton Gregory of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops said a ?perfect storm? of media coverage damaged the church. (And you thought it was those wicked priests!)

The epidemic of childhood obesity? According to a public-health official in the Sept. 14 Houston Chronicle, it?s generating a ?perfect storm? in future health care costs.

When he was asked to explain the budget crisis at public KCTS-TV, then-President Burnill Clark told The Seattle Times it was due to a ?perfect storm? that began stirring in the mid-1990s. That storm is apparently gathering steam. In the Sept. 15 Washington Post, John Lawson of the Association of Public Television Stations was quoted as saying that public stations are having trouble raising money due to ?a perfect storm of downward trends.? The article cited the already storm-lashed KCTS as an example.

And in a Sept. 9 story about the movie Thirteen, a columnist for the Orlando Sentinel described the main character?s life as ?the perfect storm of adolescence: divorced parents, disaffected dad, struggling mom, family living on the fringes of poverty, chaotic home life.? Perhaps adolescence itself could be described as a ?perfect storm? of hormones.

What?s at work here is far more insidious than lazy writers leaning on the crutch of an apparently sturdy clich?. It?s clear that ?perfect storm? has become the perfect excuse for every human screwup, and one that politicians, policymakers, consultants, and other experts are grasping in an attempt to avoid all responsibility for what went wrong.

Who screwed up the economy? Who ripped off consumers? Who stole your pension? Who wrecked your public-TV station? Who?s responsible for your kids being overweight delinquents? Not Bush, of course. Not incompetent administrators. Not you. It?s the confluence of circumstances beyond your control!

Which is the perfect dodge. We puny humans are responsible for nothing, really. Because a perfect storm is a force of nature or an act of God. We have no say, and no standing. Because the storm is perfect, able to overcome our best efforts, we are all equally victims

THE MAJOR PROBLEMS we face have nothing to do with us as individuals. The train wreck of human error? The perfect storm did it. We hapless humans can only stand by and watch. We get to blame the dog for eating our homework: Shit happens. Perfect shit.

We used to live in a rationalistic society where everything was connected in some kind of logical cause-and-effect chain. But our irrationality cannot accept the consequences of such a world, because it is too painful for us to face our failings and take responsibility for them. The perfect storm is our era?s great evasion, a new twist on ?mistakes were made.? Now, anyone can commit the ?perfect? crime, and get away with it.

Originally Posted by Barbara

Machine politicians are fond of recounting the story of an old political hack who had held office for many years. He was known for playing it too close to the edge where the law was concerned -- but well-loved for delivering lots of goodies to his constituents. One year, he found himself in the middle of yet another scandal as Election Day approached. His managers groped for a new slogan in the final weeks of the campaign. Their inspiration: "Honesty is No Substitute for Experience."

In this political fable, experience and the old hack prevail. But the truth is that Americans are opportunistic, fickle and capricious on the subject of experience in politics -- which also means that we are practical and sensible. There are times when the voters are looking for a plumber, mechanic or doctor. The idea is to hire someone with a long track record who can fix problems and keep an eye on things. There are other moments when voters yearn for a preacher, an actor, a general -- even a wrestler -- who might lift their spirits by offering vision, or just by being different.

The notion of a old political hack running on a slogan "Honesty is No Substitute for Experience" applies quite aptly to my country's PM he has been in parliament since the mid 70's, he has been a treasuer (money man) in one government, opposition leader twice before and PM for seven years and counting. Our Prime Minister is no better in raw talent than most party hacks which there are many in today's parliaments in Australia. However he has sort experience, the rest of them do not have.

Memories of the 3T:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34747

(Standard disclaimers)


New photos of Clinton
blowing a gasket
Pics record notorious dust-up between then- prez and WND's Sperry

Posted: September 24, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern


? 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

Just in time for the fourth anniversary of WND Washington bureau chief Paul Sperry's celebrated confrontation with then-President Bill Clinton on the White House south lawn, WND has obtained new photos of the verbal brawl revealing a visibly upset chief executive getting in the face of the one reporter who dared to ask the tough questions.

Sperry, who at the time was Washington bureau chief for Investor's Business Daily, five months after the incident accepted an offer for the same position at WorldNetDaily. In one of his first WND stories, he documented his fiery impromptu debate with Clinton in a widely read account titled "My picnic with Bill" ( http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=20765 ).


Clinton uses index finger in direction of Paul Sperry, right, to make a point. Janet Fallon is at left.

It was Sept. 24, 1999, when Sperry attended a White House south lawn party for Washington reporters. The event would turn out to be his last White House visit, since the Clinton administration banned him from the grounds after he dared confront the president on his own turf.

Sperry set the stage in "My picnic with Bill":

This was hog's heaven for the cheap scribes who filed onto the White House grounds that Friday night in September for a Cajun party in their honor. What a spread. On red-checkered picnic tables spanning the length of the plush green lawn, beckoned trays of jambalaya, boudin and boiled shrimp.

And the bars, under colorful tents, were stocked full of liquor. No kegs here. Black-tie-clad help poured your favorite libation from bottles. Forget Budweiser; they had Guinness Stout and other imported brews. Fine reds and whites, too, and highballs. All free.

Zydeco tunes skipped across the crowd of giddy guests. As the sunny day faded to dusk, the soft lights of the White House portico glowed behind us. Intoxicating. What a night.

But, for me, there was still something wrong with this party ? namely, the host.


Clinton asks for and takes Sperry's business card.

Around 6 p.m., Clinton emerged from the White House to greet his guests. The president was dressed in an all black casual outfit, as Sperry described, "like a bad imitation of Johnny Cash."

As Clinton began working the crowd of reporters, Sperry asked the president a simple question ? one that set off a 10-minute confrontation the reporter recalls as "nothing short of a 'scene.'" The question: When would he hold his next formal press conference?

Clinton barked back, "Why?" and the bout began:

"Because the American people have a lot of unanswered questions," I replied, struggling to hold my bladder. At that point, he moved back down the rope, pulling up square in front of me, and demanded, "Like what?"

"Well, like illegal money from China and the campaign-finance scandal ..."

The party-goers collapsed in around us. I watched the blood rush to Clinton's gargantuan face as he launched into a tirade against ex- Republican National Committee Chairman Haley Barbour, the FBI, Bob Dole and Republicans in general. All the while, he tried to belittle me by making faces (to get a rise out of his fans) and intimidate me by getting in my face.

And now I can see how he can do that to people. Clinton's not just intellectually intimidating, he's physically imposing. He's tall (6-2) and big-boned.

Luckily, I'm the same height and was able to stand toe-to-toe and eye-to-eye with him. I'll never forget the maniacal look in his bloodshot eyes. There was a moment, fleeting, where I sensed he wanted to try to take a swipe at me. I was getting full frontal Clinton. His volcanic temper, hidden so well from the public by his handlers, erupted less than 12 inches from my eyes.



One of the event's attendees was Janet Fallon, a public- relations specialist who, ironically enough, had worked for Pat Buchanan's 1992 presidential campaign. Fallon stood just to the right of Clinton ? a front-row seat for the dust-up.

Her date shot the photos featured in this story.

Sperry "obviously struck a real chord. [Clinton] got real pi---- off. He did the finger-in-the-face thing. Oh yeah, he was pi----. I thought, Why the heck isn't he just walking away? Why is he answering these tough questions?" Fallon recalls.

Fallon says at one point Clinton put his hand on her shoulder "for support," thinking she was one of his many media fans who gathered around for the debate.

Early on in the confrontation, Clinton asked Sperry for his business card, which Sperry provided.

A heretofore unreported development is that two weeks later, the federal government came to call on Sperry's then-employer, Investor's Business Daily. A Labor Department inspector came knocking at IBD's headquarters in Los Angeles ? a first for the national paper. He asked to see Family and Medical Leave Act and other labor postings in the newsroom snackroom, then asked to see employee records, including Sperry's. At that point, IBD's lawyers were called and the inspector was escorted off the premises.

A month before the picnic, Sperry had written an expose on a Clinton appointee, Vanessa Weaver, to the U.S. Export-Import Bank that led the Senate Banking Committee to force her to recuse herself from all deals related to the Beijing-tied Lippo Group. The Wall Street Journal opined on Sperry's IBD article in an editorial, fueling the controversy over the appointee. At her confirmation hearing, senators grilled Weaver about Sperry's article, which revealed Weaver's close relationship with convicted Clinton fund-raiser John Huang, a former top Lippo executive, and her potential conflicts of interest.

In wrapping up his account of the event, Sperry wrote:

The press corps should be ashamed that a single reporter was able to fire off as many, if not more, specific and tough questions at the president about Chinagate in 10 minutes than they've managed to do in the three years since this scandal broke. Did I pay a price in becoming the persona non grata of the Clinton White House? Yes, but I wear it as a badge of honor. I did my job.

Read "My picnic with Bill" ( http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=20765 )

Originally Posted by Tristan Jones

Originally Posted by Barbara

Machine politicians are fond of recounting the story of an old political hack who had held office for many years. He was known for playing it too close to the edge where the law was concerned -- but well-loved for delivering lots of goodies to his constituents. One year, he found himself in the middle of yet another scandal as Election Day approached. His managers groped for a new slogan in the final weeks of the campaign. Their inspiration: "Honesty is No Substitute for Experience."

In this political fable, experience and the old hack prevail. But the truth is that Americans are opportunistic, fickle and capricious on the subject of experience in politics -- which also means that we are practical and sensible. There are times when the voters are looking for a plumber, mechanic or doctor. The idea is to hire someone with a long track record who can fix problems and keep an eye on things. There are other moments when voters yearn for a preacher, an actor, a general -- even a wrestler -- who might lift their spirits by offering vision, or just by being different.

The notion of a old political hack running on a slogan "Honesty is No Substitute for Experience" applies quite aptly to my country's PM he has been in parliament since the mid 70's, he has been a treasuer (money man) in one government, opposition leader twice before and PM for seven years and counting. Our Prime Minister is no better in raw talent than most party hacks which there are many in today's parliaments in Australia. However he has sort experience, the rest of them do not have.

Tristan, I read your post and took some time to look at both your country's parties online, the Liberal and the Labour. Of course, I couldn't take the time to really research, but I noticed that Howard looks like a Silent (?), and I also got impression Aussieland is moving in America's political direction as far as our GOP dominance right now. I also got impression you are behind us, not ahead of us in this regard. Am I right or all wet?

Originally Posted by Barbara

Tristan, I read your post and took some time to look at both your country's parties online, the Liberal and the Labour. Of course, I couldn't take the time to really research, but I noticed that Howard looks like a Silent (?), and I also got impression Aussieland is moving in America's political direction as far as our GOP dominance right now. I also got impression you are behind us, not ahead of us in this regard. Am I right or all wet?

Howard is very much a Silent generation person.

Politically no political party has dominance the political system right now. Back in the 1950's and 1960's The Liberal party had strong control at both a state and federal level and the Labor party was quite weak. The Labor party since the 1970's has been more competitive on both federal and state levels. Labor right now for instance has control of every state and territory government, while the Liberals control the federal government.

Originally Posted by Tristan Jones

Politically no political party has dominance the political system right now. Back in the 1950's and 1960's The Liberal party had strong control at both a state and federal level and the Labor party was quite weak. The Labor party since the 1970's has been more competitive on both federal and state levels. Labor right now for instance has control of every state and territory government, while the Liberals control the federal government.

Wow, you guys are a bit different than us, then. Sounds like us in the 70's, but you haven't flipped flopped back and force party-power-wise like we have?

Actually, it would appear that dichotomy (conservative fed/liberal state) might work well. However, I don't know how your funding is structured.

In Generations (and probably also in The Fourth Turning), S&H described how, at the end of the Roaring 20s, the people stopped watching the flagpole sitters when the Depression started. Theythen predicted that the equivalent would happen when the next crisis started. I tried to apply this to reality TV and failed--this summer, there were more reality shows than ever! Well, there is a real life flagpole sitter in the form of David Blaine, suspended in his transparent box above London. I wonder where outright hostility would fit in the theory...

Standard disclaimers apply.

Man Arrested for Harassing David Blaine

Associated Press


Illusionist David Blaine is seen in his see through box suspended from a crane near the banks of the river thames in central London Friday Sept. 26, 2003. Blaine who is hoping to remain in his box for 44 days without food has been asked to pay for the cost of policing. The Metropolitan Police said the numbers of people coming to see and hurl abuse at Blaine had escalated to the point where more policing was needed. (AP Photo/Adam Butler)

Police arrested a man Friday who used a catapult to launch paint-filled balloons at the plastic box that holds street illusionist David Blaine dangling near the River Thames.
A 28-year-old man from London was charged with criminal damage after he fired several balloons filled with pink paint at Blaine's box from a nearby upper floor window, hitting his target at least once, police said.

The alleged assault was the latest in string of attacks; the New York magician has been pelted with eggs, golf balls and insults as he attempts to live for 44 days in a glass box suspended by a crane near Tower Bridge.

Blaine has been asked to pay for the cost of policing his endurance attempt since the Metropolitan Police said the numbers of people coming to see - and hurl abuse at - the 30-year-old had escalated.

Two TV companies that have coverage rights have agreed to pay an undisclosed fee for one sergeant and six police constables to patrol near Blaine's box on weekends.

"We have now asked the organizers to pay for it, as it is having a considerable effect on the people of Southwark," the district on the south bank of the Thames where Blaine is suspended, police Commissioner John Stevens said. "It is important to say there has been considerable expense."

As well as attacks on his temporary home, the magician has had to endure people banging drums and baring their breasts or buttocks at him in an attempt to keep him awake at night.

A man was arrested Sept. 16 when he scaled a nearby scaffold tower and allegedly tried to cut off Blaine's water supply.

One British newspaper has dubbed Blaine-baiting as "the new national sport."

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On the Net:

http://www.davidblaine.com

Originally Posted by Barbara

Wow, you guys are a bit different than us, then. Sounds like us in the 70's, but you haven't flipped flopped back and force party-power-wise like we have?

Actually, it would appear that dichotomy (conservative fed/liberal state) might work well. However, I don't know how your funding is structured.

The federal government here has more control over tax monies and their distrbution than in the USA. I have noticed on this newsgroup people in the USA are more paristian and ideologically than they are in Australia. Few people in Australia describe themsleves as strong supporters for various political or Socialists and Conservatives.

Originally Posted by Tristan Jones

The federal government here has more control over tax monies and their distrbution than in the USA. I have noticed on this newsgroup people in the USA are more paristian and ideologically than they are in Australia. Few people in Australia describe themsleves as strong supporters for various political or Socialists and Conservatives.

Tristan, then would you agree with the aricle I just posted with your Rad Enviro idea in mind? Over here in America it is a huge bone of contention -- environmental govt regulation on industry....

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

In Generations (and probably also in The Fourth Turning), S&H described how, at the end of the Roaring 20s, the people stopped watching the flagpole sitters when the Depression started.

Yeah, but they started playing miniature golf, poured out to movie theaters in droves to see escapist movies, traveled in droves to Quebec to see the Dionne quintuplets (my mom was taken there as a child), followed the affairs of King Edward VIII and his Baltimore lady-love with fascination, and rooted for Seabiscuit.

Originally Posted by Barbara

Tristan, then would you agree with the aricle I just posted with your Rad Enviro idea in mind? Over here in America it is a huge bone of contention -- environmental govt regulation on industry....

I do not really agree with radical environmentalist ideas on economics, however that is what they believe in in reality. In Australia environmental regulation of industry is not really much of a political issue. Things like mining in national parks and logging old growth forests are noticeable political issues. Also the degradtion of the murray-darling river system is another big issues as a of late, because too much water is being taken from the rivers to farming and water supplies for cities. Also irrigation and clearing of trees is causing the salt table to rise in the Basin.

I do think the threat to forests from logging has been somewhat overrated, here in Australia at least. There is probably more forests and trees now than they were in 1788, because the halt to Aboriginal fire stick farming which kept vegetation more open and grassy.

Originally Posted by The Wonk

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

In Generations (and probably also in The Fourth Turning), S&H described how, at the end of the Roaring 20s, the people stopped watching the flagpole sitters when the Depression started.

Yeah, but they started playing miniature golf, poured out to movie theaters in droves to see escapist movies, traveled in droves to Quebec to see the Dionne quintuplets (my mom was taken there as a child), followed the affairs of King Edward VIII and his Baltimore lady-love with fascination, and rooted for Seabiscuit.

In something of this same vein, make of this what you will:

http://www.wftv.com/news/2519262/detail.html

The following is quoted for discussion only with no intention of infringement of any rights and no intention of any profit.


Band Vows To Defy New St. Pete Law With Onstage Suicide

POSTED: 5:16 p.m. EDT September 29, 2003
UPDATED: 10:35 a.m. EDT September 30, 2003

MEET THE BAND: Check Out Photos Of Hell On Earth

TAMPA, Fla. -- The leader of the shock rock group Hell on Earth said an onstage suicide will happen during a private St. Petersburg concert this weekend in defiance of a new city law designed to stop it.

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"The show will go on," Billy Tourtelot said Monday. "It will be available on the Internet, and it will be in the city limits (of St. Petersburg)."

Earlier Monday, the St. Petersburg city council unanimously approved an emergency ordinance that makes it illegal in the city to conduct a suicide for commercial or entertainment purposes, and to host, promote and sell tickets for such an event.

"While I still think it's a publicity stunt, we still couldn't sit idly by and let somebody lose their life," council member Bill Foster said.

Al Galbraith, an assistant city attorney, said the city will also seek a court injunction against the band to keep them from advertising and allowing the suicide to occur.

Hell on Earth (photos of the band) attracted national publicity when it announced that a suicide by a terminally ill person would take place during a concert Saturday to raise awareness of right-to-die issues.

The Tampa-based band, known for such outrageous onstage stunts as chocolate syrup wresting and grinding up live rats in a blender, first created the furor by announcing earlier this month that the suicide would happen during a show at the Palace Theater in downtown St. Petersburg.

But the theater's owner promptly canceled the band's appearance, and another venue also turned away the event.

Now Tourtelot, 33, said the suicide show will be played before a "a select few people" at an undisclosed location in St. Petersburg and be shown live on the band's Web site. He wouldn't disclose any details about the terminally ill person or say how the person planned to kill himself.

The point, he said, is to raise awareness that physician-assisted suicide should be legalized in Florida. If the terminally ill person could find a physician to assist, then the person wouldn't be forced to do it himself, Tourtelot said.

"If you can die for your country, why can't you die for yourself?" he asked.

Tourtelot said he's not worried about the legal ramifications. Violating the city ordinance is punishable with up to 60 days in jail and a $500 fine. A Florida law already makes it manslaughter, a second-degree felony, to assist in a suicide, but he insists the band is not assisting the act.

"This person will be doing this self-deliverance totally by themselves, on their own accord," he said.

St. Petersburg police were still trying to decide how to respond, spokesman George Kajtsa said Monday.

Hell on Earth, a five-man outfit formed in 1996, is playing clubs in support of its new CD, "All Things Disturbingly Sassy," its second produced on an independent Naples label.

Tourtelot said that while some of the band's past stunts have been done for shock or entertainment value, some sort of symbolism and self-expression was always at the root.

"It is art," the St. Petersburg native said. "These are things I choose to do to make people think and to get out some of my own thoughts."

Tourtelot said he's gotten interview requests from all over the United States and Europe since the story broke earlier this month. Rolling Stone magazine even wrote about him.

However, six of the seven out-of-state shows on the current tour were canceled by venues after word got out of the planned suicide in St. Petersburg, he said.

Originally Posted by The Wonk

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

In Generations (and probably also in The Fourth Turning), S&H described how, at the end of the Roaring 20s, the people stopped watching the flagpole sitters when the Depression started.

Yeah, but they started playing miniature golf, poured out to movie theaters in droves to see escapist movies, traveled in droves to Quebec to see the Dionne quintuplets (my mom was taken there as a child), followed the affairs of King Edward VIII and his Baltimore lady-love with fascination, and rooted for Seabiscuit.

In some ways, I think a 4T doesn't mean that things don't unravel anymore - they just unravel faster and are more wont to crash. The cataylst is the point where crashing becomes spectacular. (Meanwhile we try to go on with our daily lives but one thing or another starts to get in the way.)