A conservative's review of Al Franken's 'Lies and the Lying Liars'
10/17/03

Becky Miller

I must say that only once before in my life have I ever felt as utterly shocked as I am at this moment. The time before was when I first realized that my boss at the time, Bill Sizemore, was greedy and dishonest. The foundations of my universe shook. What has utterly shocked me today is Al Franken's latest book, "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right."

I read the book in one sitting. It is an amazing book, and -- if you're a decent, honest, hard-working, patriotic, true-blue conservative who listens to Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly and watches Fox News -- an earth-shattering book.

To be aboveboard, I must tell you that Franken and I are friends. Well, OK, the truth is I made a wisecrack to him at a book signing, and he looked at me. (Read the book -- the part about Ann Coulter -- and you'll get it.)

Until I read this book, I believed the Bill Sizemore/Oregon Taxpayers United mess was a bit of a fluke. (In 2002 I testified against him in a civil trial in which a Multnomah County jury found that his charitable foundation and political action committee had committed fraud and forgery, and that Oregon Taxpayers United had engaged in a pattern of racketeering to obtain signatures on initiative petitions for tax measures drafted by Sizemore.) The spin, the lies, the greed, the disregard for the everyday person -- I thought it was all just a fluke and really limited to this one little pustule of filth that had festered in a little storefront in Clackamas, Oregon. Boy, was I wrong.

I believe Franken is telling the truth in his book because it meshes perfectly with what I personally have observed. And I think every decent, honest, hard-working, patriotic, true-blue conservative owes it to himself to read it. Hold your nose if you must -- Franken is as foul-mouthed and crass as his reputation would lead you to believe (and quite mistakenly believes Christians love Israel because it is the center of prophecies that include the fiery deaths of all Jews) -- but read it anyway.

The other day on talk radio, I heard a guy tell an incredulous Lars Larson that he wouldn't believe Rush Limbaugh was a drug addict involved in a drug ring even if Limbaugh himself admitted it. If you're that guy, don't bother reading Franken's book. You will really just drive yourself even more crazy.

The leaders we conservatives have trusted have taken advantage of our trust to line the pockets of the wealthy and powerful, and it's time we rose up and drove out these greedy liars. They've hijacked and distorted our belief system for their own gain, and in doing so are destroying our credibility.

And if we decent, honest, hard-working, patriotic, true-blue conservatives of this country neglect the duty we have to our children and grandchildren, we will never be able to work with those decent, honest, hard-working, patriotic, true-blue liberal Americans that these lying creeps have taught us to despise. We will never be safe to debate them or, when warranted, to listen to them and maybe even agree with them. We will never be safe to work out our differences or to work together. And we will never be able to build on the all-American sense of unity that burst forth following 9/11, only to disappear shortly thereafter in a cloud of lying, greedy partisan politics.

I'm still a decent, honest, hard-working, patriotic, true-blue conservative. But Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity and the rest of you lying liars -- I'm through with you! (Read the book, and you'll get that one, too.)

Becky Miller of Woodburn is former senior aide to Bill Sizemore, president of Oregon Taxpayers United.


http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary...1961270050.xml

Sure, last quarter's GDP numbers looked impressive. But . . .

http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/31/comm...ex.htm?cnn=yes

**For Discussion Purposes Only **

Scary stuff

Looking to frighten the Wall Streeters in your lives? Here's how.
October 31, 2003: 9:37 AM EST
By Justin Lahart, CNN/Money Senior Writer

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Wall Streeters mostly love Halloween. What's more fun than putting on one of those swanky new Dick Grasso masks, or maybe that old Henry Blodget costume, and making the rounds.

But late at night, when they're up in their rooms fighting against that sugar high and the wind is blowing and the branches of that old elm are rubbing up against the side of the house -- well, then Wall Streeters start thinking about all the things that could go wrong. And they get very frightened.

Have a kid brother who works on Wall Street? Halloween night, after you've tricked him into trading all his Snickers bars for your Trident (to do this, tell him that Trident "has mo'"), here are some things you might do to scare him silly:

Tell him the dollar is going to tank
The best way to do this is probably to open up to the article Warren Buffett wrote in the latest issue of Fortune. It's got some nice graphs of the swelling U.S. trade deficit and of all the U.S. assets that foreigners now hold. Point out that the current account deficit is north of 5 percent -- which for any other country would be a sign of imminent currency collapse.

Point out that late economist Rudi Dornbusch -- best known for his work on exchange rates and overshooting -- always said that currency imbalances, once they corrected, always corrected more violently than people supposed they would. Tell him that Buffett has now, for the first time in history, moved some of Berkshire Hathaway's portfolio into foreign currencies.

Remind him of what happened the last time he didn't listen to Buffett.

Start chanting "Toga, Toga, Toga!"
And then suggest that maybe his perception that all the corporate shenanigans of the past haven't quite gone away yet. Note that reform on accounting for employee options is getting pushed back again. Ask him if he has any idea, really, what's going on at Fannie Mae. Point out that companies have got back into the habit of writing off "one-time items" to put a shine on earnings that really aren't there.

Suggest that there really isn't a new conservatism afoot in corporate boardrooms at all. Instead, it's just the same old hucksters pretending to be conservative. CEOs are master salesmen, after all -- just look at the ridiculous amounts they (still) get paid.

Once a trick and cheater, always a trick and cheater.

Warn him that the consumer is about to crack
Remember all that excitement about third-quarter gross domestic product Thursday? It grew at a 7.2 percent annual rate -- the fastest pace since 1984. So where, pray tell, are all the jobs? With all that growth, you'd think that companies would be hiring by now, but instead we're in the midst of the longest post-recession job slump in history.

The only thing that's given consumers the wherewithal to keep on spending like they have is a raft of money generated by tax cuts and the cash they got refinancing their mortgages. In other words, if the government and they hadn't gone further into debt, we'd already be sunk.

But now the tax-cut and mortgage-refinancing effects are fading. People say that business spending will make up the slack, but that's seems tough when you remember that consumer spending accounts for 70 percent of GDP.

Wonder what that smell is?
...because it sure seems like investors are smoking something. Just look at the stocks that are up the most this year -- Dynegy, Corning and Williams are all up over 200 percent and Avaya is up over 400 percent. Weren't these the same companies that people got burned on so badly last time? And all of them show losses for the past year.

Valuations in general look steep. The S&P 500 trades at a historically rich 21 times earnings -- if you use those bogus, before-write-off earnings known as pro forma. If you use earnings under generally accepted accounting principles you get a PE of 28. The average PE on a GAAP basis since 1989 has been 23.5 -- an average that includes the recent bubble years.

Disturbingly, it seems like a lot of investors these days are merely in it for the trade, believing that this time around they'll get out before things go wrong. That's known as the greater fool game -- you're betting that there is going to be some greater fool to buy a stock at an even higher price from you. It's often a recipe for disaster.

Say the market is going to leave him behind
A Wall Streeter's worst fear: That you get overly focused on all the things that could go wrong, and stocks rocket higher.

You can try to play catch up by loading up on dangerously volatile stocks, or you can stick to your guns and hope the market comes down so you can get back in. But if you blow your year, you can forget about getting much of a bonus and maybe you can forget about even having a job.

Hey Wall Street ... boo!

Seems to me the Culture Wars are still alive and well


Satan?s Big Day?

Culture Wars Don?t Take a Holiday on Halloween

By Geraldine Sealey

Oct. 31 ? When you dress your toddler like a Power Ranger tonight and take him trolling for candy, the nation's culture wars likely will be far from your mind. But for a growing number of Americans, celebrating Halloween has become taboo.

Sheila Nazario is one of them. The 35-year-old from Plainfield, N.J., won't take her 3-year-old trick-or-treating or even put him in a costume. She celebrated Halloween as a child, but rejected the holiday later in life when she became an evangelical Christian and Oct. 31 seemed to take on a more menacing tone.

"It was something God wanted me to do," she said. "Halloween represents a pagan holiday to us. When I was younger, Halloween wasn't safe but a bit safer. People use it now as a way to do things that aren't nice."

Across the country, parents like Nazario are "opting out" of Halloween celebrations in schools and communities because they see the holiday as a glorification of paganism and out of step with their values.


Full article is here

Originally Posted by Zola

Seems to me the Culture Wars are still alive and well

well, at first i thought "i don't know if that's part of a culture "war", really.... they're simply opting out". but then i read the article itself, and especially quotes like "an excellent opportunity to take back ground in which the enemy has controlled for too long". sheesh, folks just can't chill, can they? that steve russo guy seems pretty level-headed, though.

fwiw, i understand the "if no jesus in december, why witches in october" viewpoint. and honestly, i personally think you ought to have both, as well as the most important holidays of other religions. i mean, why the hell not?

happy halloween!


TK

"It was something God wanted me to do," she said. "Halloween represents a pagan holiday to us. When I was younger, Halloween wasn't safe but a bit safer. People use it now as a way to do things that aren't nice."

Yesterday my grandfather was telling me about how his Lost/GI cusper dad and his peers would observe Halloween by committing acts of minor vandalism. Every Halloween, there would be at least one business in town that had its windows smashed by the local youth. Yep, those were the days all right. :lol:

I think Halloween has gotten very kid-friendly and family oriented, at least around here. This year, my younger siblings and cousins went trick or treating in Sumner, WA. The police blocked off main street, and all the small business owners sat outside with baskets of candy. From there they could go to the nearby houses. There were swarms of kids. You felt like you'd walked into a Norman Rockwell painting. I guess that kind of safe, monitered atmosphere is to be expected for a budding Artist generation....

Originally Posted by Katie '85

"It was something God wanted me to do," she said. "Halloween represents a pagan holiday to us. When I was younger, Halloween wasn't safe but a bit safer. People use it now as a way to do things that aren't nice."

Yesterday my grandfather was telling me about how his Lost/GI cusper dad and his peers would observe Halloween by committing acts of minor vandalism. Every Halloween, there would be at least one business in town that had its windows smashed by the local youth. Yep, those were the days all right. :lol:

I think Halloween has gotten very kid-friendly and family oriented, at least around here. This year, my younger siblings and cousins went trick or treating in Sumner, WA. The police blocked off main street, and all the small business owners sat outside with baskets of candy. From there they could go to the nearby houses. There were swarms of kids. You felt like you'd walked into a Norman Rockwell painting. I guess that kind of safe, monitered atmosphere is to be expected for a budding Artist generation....

I suspect something similar was held down here in Vancouver, Katie. It's the only explanation for why I saw not one trick-or-treater in or around my neighborhood. All the little ghosts and goblins were probably at the Vancouver Mall.

Originally Posted by Katie '85

"It was something God wanted me to do," she said. "Halloween represents a pagan holiday to us. When I was younger, Halloween wasn't safe but a bit safer. People use it now as a way to do things that aren't nice."

Yesterday my grandfather was telling me about how his Lost/GI cusper dad and his peers would observe Halloween by committing acts of minor vandalism. Every Halloween, there would be at least one business in town that had its windows smashed by the local youth. Yep, those were the days all right. :lol:

I think Halloween has gotten very kid-friendly and family oriented, at least around here. This year, my younger siblings and cousins went trick or treating in Sumner, WA. The police blocked off main street, and all the small business owners sat outside with baskets of candy. From there they could go to the nearby houses. There were swarms of kids. You felt like you'd walked into a Norman Rockwell painting. I guess that kind of safe, monitered atmosphere is to be expected for a budding Artist generation....

I'm not sure that's it. My own father was a middle-wave Silent, and in his youth they also celebrated with vandalism of that sort, which he himself took part in.

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by Katie '85

"It was something God wanted me to do," she said. "Halloween represents a pagan holiday to us. When I was younger, Halloween wasn't safe but a bit safer. People use it now as a way to do things that aren't nice."

Yesterday my grandfather was telling me about how his Lost/GI cusper dad and his peers would observe Halloween by committing acts of minor vandalism. Every Halloween, there would be at least one business in town that had its windows smashed by the local youth. Yep, those were the days all right. :lol:

I think Halloween has gotten very kid-friendly and family oriented, at least around here. This year, my younger siblings and cousins went trick or treating in Sumner, WA. The police blocked off main street, and all the small business owners sat outside with baskets of candy. From there they could go to the nearby houses. There were swarms of kids. You felt like you'd walked into a Norman Rockwell painting. I guess that kind of safe, monitered atmosphere is to be expected for a budding Artist generation....

I'm not sure that's it. My own father was a middle-wave Silent, and in his youth they also celebrated with vandalism of that sort, which he himself took part in.

Back in New Jersey in the mid-60s, the older kids did something similar on October 30th which we called "Mischief Night". These were early- to mid-wave Boomers...although I recall their mischief was pretty much that, limited to soaping car windows and T.P.-ing the cranky old lady's yard :lol: .

Originally Posted by TrollKing

Originally Posted by Zola

Seems to me the Culture Wars are still alive and well

well, at first i thought "i don't know if that's part of a culture "war", really.... they're simply opting out". but then i read the article itself, and especially quotes like "an excellent opportunity to take back ground in which the enemy has controlled for too long". sheesh, folks just can't chill, can they? that steve russo guy seems pretty level-headed, though.

fwiw, i understand the "if no jesus in december, why witches in october" viewpoint. and honestly, i personally think you ought to have both, as well as the most important holidays of other religions. i mean, why the hell not?

happy halloween!


TK

Because the goal of the secularists (for want of a better word) is to create an America where other faiths, and no faith, don't take second-class status to Christianity. To a certain point, many of them are driven by a craving for an egalitarian society on social level. But there's a problem they inevitably encounter: in America, Christianity is the 800 pound gorilla of religions, bigger than all the others combined in numbers and influence, plus the fact that the public calendar, the language, and most of the national traditions are steeped in it.

The only way to not have Christian influence overwhelmingly more important than the others is to drive ALL religion out, which is what they've tried hard to do.

For example, traditionally Christmas is a public holiday. It's also explicitly religious. From the POV of those who think 'fairness' is all-critical, there should also be public holidays for ALL religions, if Christian holidays are taken.

The above is a rather silly and oversimplified example, but it indicates the direction of the thinking. In practical terms, Christianity has special privileges and rights in America, for reasons of history, numbers, and simply practicality, just as Hinduism does in India, no matter what the legalistic theory of the state is. No matter how hard the secularists try, their goal is unattainable, and they end up looking silly, but to them it's important.

Originally Posted by Katie '85

"It was something God wanted me to do," she said. "Halloween represents a pagan holiday to us. When I was younger, Halloween wasn't safe but a bit safer. People use it now as a way to do things that aren't nice."

Yesterday my grandfather was telling me about how his Lost/GI cusper dad and his peers would observe Halloween by committing acts of minor vandalism. Every Halloween, there would be at least one business in town that had its windows smashed by the local youth. Yep, those were the days all right. :lol:

Here's an interesting bit of Halloween trivia, that might have a Generational implication. I don't know if anybody else on this board is familiar with the town of Carbondale, Illinois. It's a small college town, home of one of the campuses of Southern Illinois University.

Years ago, a custom got started of local University students putting on costumes at Halloween, having a street party on 'the Strip', the area of bars and other establishments catering to the college crowd, and usually drift over to the police station and serenade the cops. This was considered a refreshing change at the time, compared to the uproar from the protests and troubles of the sixties. This was years ago.

Well, the street party grew year by year. Unfortunately, as it did, the emphasis on costumes, singing, and playful fun gradually got replaced by an emphasis on 'let's get drunk and set something on fire!" I'm not exaggerating, it got worse each year. The Carbondale Halloween Party became well known in certain circles, and after a while there'd by more out-of-towners there for the party than there were students.

When the bars would close, they'd pour into the streets. There'd be vandalism, serious damage, and usually at least one reported rape and probably many more that weren't. Cars would be turned over, people pelted with beer cans, rocks, or worse, and there'd be injuries. As each successive cohort of Xers passed through the bracket, the party got nastier, almost in synch with the declining Unravelling mood. Costumes got to be rather a quaint notion in all this.

Naturally, a lot of local resentment built up. Here I have to say that Boomer authorities actually went the extra mile to try to reach a compromise with the Xer partiers, it was the Xers who made jackasses of themselves. No matter what inducement was offered, the trouble just got worse and worse. They tried closing the bars ealier, no success. The University tried banning out-of-town guests in the dorms at Halloween, no luck. Finally, the town got fed up. The Council closed the bars at Halloween, the University closed the school and sent the most of the students home in the week of Halloween, and the party was pretty much shut down.

These days the party is pretty much a memory. Every year a few die-hards try to revive it, but when it's over, it's over. BTW, it wasn't 911 that killed it, it was pretty much on the way out already.

Now, imagine 20 or 25 years from now, if the trends continue. I can picture earnest college students who've never even heard of the big party, and run across references to it in old newspapers or the like and scratch their heads, looking back from 1T at the old 3T shenanigans.

Once again I have to excuse myself for my long absence but express satisfaction that people continue to post interesting ideas.

I strongly recommend that anyone wondering where we are going read any book about the Gilded Age, such as the Allen Nevins biography of Grover Cleveland I've been dipping into (that one is hard to find), or any biography of Grant, or the Henry Adams journalism collected under the title "The Great Secession Winter." After the amazingly violent explosion of the civil war, we descended rapidly into total civic cynicism and corruption, which didn't seem to bother anyone except a few elderly transcendentals to whom no one wanted to listen (quite possibly the kind of elderhood Bill S and I have to look forward to!) Corporate greed ruled the nation and the Congress--although in those days corporations wanted high tariffs, not free trade that exported all our jobs. (Come to think about it, maybe they are smarter nowadays. Keeping the jobs here means a labor movement and, eventually, another New Deal.)
The question is whether Bush and Co. can find a way to make a large mass of Americans FEEL they have some stake in this awful New Order. I have the feeling that Union veterans' organizations did that in the Gilded Age; but we dont' want a mass army now. It may be that, despite W's disclaimers, we will be driven to turn the "war on terror" into a religious war, in an attempt to find civic glue among Christians. (The Florida right-to-die case is a rather chilling warning of how social issues may become more politicized. It won't be long before some boomer mom is asking the legislature to give Jeb Bush the power to stop her daughter's abortion.) The alternative would be to re-institute a draft to create the multimillion man army that we need if we really want to occupy the whole Middle East. That would be lunacy, in my opinion, but if the alternative is to give up Iraq (and that increasingly looks like the alternative), that may be their choice.
It's Karl Rove who is trying to design the new consensus, and Karl Rove believes in mobilizing the people based on hate. Rather than move to the center, he is always looking for some new group whose anger hasn't yet found expression in the political arena. In a country where every other person has a gun, this could have scary 4T consequences. I'm sorry to be so pessimistic, but I just don't see much of a liberal alternative out there at the moment.

David Kaiser '47

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Once again I have to excuse myself for my long absence but express satisfaction that people continue to post interesting ideas.

I strongly recommend that anyone wondering where we are going read any book about the Gilded Age, such as the Allen Nevins biography of Grover Cleveland I've been dipping into (that one is hard to find), or any biography of Grant, or the Henry Adams journalism collected under the title "The Great Secession Winter." After the amazingly violent explosion of the civil war, we descended rapidly into total civic cynicism and corruption, which didn't seem to bother anyone except a few elderly transcendentals to whom no one wanted to listen (quite possibly the kind of elderhood Bill S and I have to look forward to!) Corporate greed ruled the nation and the Congress--although in those days corporations wanted high tariffs, not free trade that exported all our jobs. (Come to think about it, maybe they are smarter nowadays. Keeping the jobs here means a labor movement and, eventually, another New Deal.)
The question is whether Bush and Co. can find a way to make a large mass of Americans FEEL they have some stake in this awful New Order. I have the feeling that Union veterans' organizations did that in the Gilded Age; but we dont' want a mass army now. It may be that, despite W's disclaimers, we will be driven to turn the "war on terror" into a religious war, in an attempt to find civic glue among Christians. (The Florida right-to-die case is a rather chilling warning of how social issues may become more politicized. It won't be long before some boomer mom is asking the legislature to give Jeb Bush the power to stop her daughter's abortion.) The alternative would be to re-institute a draft to create the multimillion man army that we need if we really want to occupy the whole Middle East. That would be lunacy, in my opinion, but if the alternative is to give up Iraq (and that increasingly looks like the alternative), that may be their choice.
It's Karl Rove who is trying to design the new consensus, and Karl Rove believes in mobilizing the people based on hate. Rather than move to the center, he is always looking for some new group whose anger hasn't yet found expression in the political arena. In a country where every other person has a gun, this could have scary 4T consequences. I'm sorry to be so pessimistic, but I just don't see much of a liberal alternative out there at the moment.

David Kaiser '47

If Strauss & Howe are right, then there was no Hero archetype in the Gilded Age, which probably had a lot to do with the qualities of that era you (and I, and others) find so repugnant. So far, this cycle's Hero archetype, the Millenials, are right on track.

Furthermore, Rove not withstanding, (as you know and as The Wonk has pointed out recently) this cycle has a Prophet archetype that is only 18 years long (up to 22 years though if some on this site are to be believed). It seems likely from the discussions I've seen on this site that the main saecular reason for the Civil War Crisis going so badly (and the subsequent first turning being so sterile) was the existence of an overwhelmingly large 29-year long Transcendental generation.

With a much shorter Prophet generation this time around, maybe the Silent and Xer's will have a better chance of ameliorating Boomer excess than the Compromisers and Gilded had with their go at it, and therefore we will have a healthy Hero-Civic group following this fourth turning to create a more egalitarian society than we saw in the late 19th century.

Don't be so glum.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2003Nov6.html

This can either be interpreted as the end of a 3T, or the beginning of a 4T.

One Nation Deeply Divided

By E. J. Dionne Jr.
Friday, November 7, 2003; Page A31

The red states get redder, the blue states get bluer, and the political map of the United States takes on the coloration of the Civil War.

Nobody, of course, is pulling out rifles or cannon. But Tuesday's election results in state and local contests suggest that an already politically divided country got a little more so. We are divided by region and by race, but above all by party. It's been a long time since partisanship was as deep as it is now. Those states in the South, the Plains and the Rockies that the television networks painted red in 2000 when Bush carried them have become even more Republican. The Gore blue states largely continue their resistance.

Four years ago, the victory of Ronnie Musgrove in Mississippi was particularly heartening for Democrats. Few states have been more conservative or more hostile to Democrats than Mississippi in recent years. If Democrats could make it there, they could make it anywhere. Perhaps, some thought, Bill Clinton's Third Way, New Democrat approach could triumph on the most hostile terrain. And as Musgrove pulled out a narrow victory, Kentucky's Gov. Paul Patton swept to a triumphant reelection.

This Tuesday, those Democratic dreams collapsed. In Mississippi, Musgrove fell to the jovial Washington lobbyist Haley Barbour. There was a time when anybody carrying the baggage of "Washington lobbyist" would just keep making money and forget about winning an election. But Barbour, possessed of an old Mississippi name, political smarts and the right party label, pulled it off.

In Kentucky, Republican Rep. Ernie Fletcher broke a 32-year losing streak for his party by taking the governorship over Democrat Ben Chandler. (Maybe Fletcher will give my dear Boston Red Sox a pep talk.) Chandler was hurt by a sex scandal involving Patton, who, before he got into trouble, seemed an odds-on pick to become a U.S. senator.

The lesson for now, beyond the advisability of avoiding scandal, is that regional divisions that showed signs of disappearing in the 1990s are reasserting themselves. And these regional differences are deep, not trivial. The day after Tuesday's elections, the Pew Research Center released a study summarizing the findings of polls involving 80,000 interviews over the past three years.

The study's overall findings pointed to an evenly divided and politically polarized country. And the divisions are cultural and regional as well as political. The survey found that the 12 most religious states were in the South (counting Oklahoma and West Virginia as southern states). Mississippi and Kentucky were in the top five. Of the 12 most socially traditional states, 10 were in the South (Ohio and Indiana were also on the list). Mississippi and Kentucky were in the top three. Mississippi and Kentucky were also in the top three among the most hawkish states on national security issues. On the other side, New England and the states of the Pacific Coast were heavily represented among the least religious, least traditional and most dovish.

So, from the Republicans' point of view, the races for governor this year could not have happened in more hospitable places. But just to underscore our divisions, the elections in blue-state land largely went the Democrats' way. In Philadelphia, Democratic Mayor John Street was reelected convincingly after it was learned that the FBI was bugging his office in a corruption investigation directed against some of his aides. Rather than raising doubts about Street, word of the bugs galvanized his constituency of staunch Democrats, especially fellow African Americans, who suspected federal -- i.e., Bush administration -- interference in an election.

Democrats swept to full control of the New Jersey legislature. In New York City, Republican Mayor Michael Bloomberg's effort to switch to nonpartisan local elections was trounced. This was a victory for Democrats, who strongly opposed the move. And in San Francisco, which has those nonpartisan elections Bloomberg likes, the voters set up a runoff between a Democrat and a Green Party member. It's not the kind of election in which Bush or Tom DeLay would relish casting a ballot. But San Francisco is not the Deep South.

It is 138 years since the Civil War ended. But in politics, the past isn't just history. In the Democratic presidential race, Howard Dean is under attack for talking kindly, sort of, about the guys with Confederate flags on their trucks. In Mississippi, Republican Barbour raised a defense of the Confederate flag to help himself win an election. Up in heaven, Abe Lincoln must be shaking his head in astonishment. The country he sought to keep united is pulling apart politically, and largely along the same lines that defined Honest Abe's election victory in 1860.

I don't get to visit here as much as the regulars here. I was wondering if some of you might post comments regarding where we are right now in your opinion. Frankly, I'm more confused than ever if we be 3T or 4T. I imagine not much has changed regarding where you think we're at, but I'd love it if some or all of the regulars would post a summary of where they think we're at. Thanks!

Originally Posted by alias

I don't get to visit here as much as the regulars here.
I was wondering if some of you might post comments regarding where
we are right now in your opinion. Frankly, I'm more confused than ever
if we be 3T or 4T. I imagine not much has changed regarding where
you think we're at, but I'd love it if some or all of the regulars would
post a summary of where they think we're at. Thanks!

Essentially we are... scratch that, hmm...

Originally Posted by alias

I don't get to visit here as much as the regulars here.
I was wondering if some of you might post comments regarding
where we are right now in your opinion.
Frankly, I'm more confused than ever if we be 3T or 4T.
I imagine not much has changed regarding where you think we're at,
but I'd love it if some or all of the regulars would post a summary of
where they think we're at. Thanks!

Essentially we are... scratch that, there is no "we." "We" would
include so many divergent views into the "big tent," like
the southern Democrat racists that FDR embraced along with all
those commie Republican "Progressives" like Senator George
Norris, "father of the TVA," and, gasp, John L. Lewis, "father of the CIO."

So, no, there is no "we." "We" would include so many unwilling to
become a "we" that we are just going to have to wait
a little while longer till somebody other than that "he," George Bush, is
where "we" ought to be. I mean, "he" is not "we," know what I mean?

Besides, "he" is a conservy Republican, and "we" all know those
kinds of fellas can't be a "we," because they is too selfish
(being fascist pigs and all that).

So, we be 3T still (whatever that means). And that "we"
you can certainly take to the bank, young fella. :wink:

Originally Posted by alias

I don't get to visit here as much as the regulars here. I was wondering if some of you might post comments regarding where we are right now in your opinion. Frankly, I'm more confused than ever if we be 3T or 4T. I imagine not much has changed regarding where you think we're at, but I'd love it if some or all of the regulars would post a summary of where they think we're at. Thanks!

I am not sure if the variety of T4Ters comes through. There are material causists, universalists, clockworkers, Anglo-American Realmers, etc.


I think we are 3T as the problems of the day and their "solutions" are those of an Unravelling in Oceania (Mr. Orwell's term). But the Islamic world and the Celestials may be in a different season as Global Culture is still in the womb and the Progressives may yet practice their Right to Choose (aka Termination). The other Great Cultures may choose to end Global Culture as well (even if they do not have the Progressive Right to do so).


The Three Gorges Project or the control of the waters of the Jordan or Tigris may be more of a shock to the Global System than even 9-11. This is for the worshippers of Clio to decide. I happen to think a Crisis of a Global T4T will be of a self-inflicted environmental nature and is a decade off. But, we in Ocenia, the Euros, the Orthodox, the Sinics, the South Asians, and the Moslems may have enough local energy to have a group of more varied Crises in those ten years of an economic/ political/ religious/ moral dimension. And, it will be tempting to say that our problem and its solution was THE PROBLEM and we SOLVED IT... Oceanic Boomer self admiration and hubris being what they are. HTH :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

Originally Posted by alias

I don't get to visit here as much as the regulars here. I was wondering if some of you might post comments regarding where we are right now in your opinion. Frankly, I'm more confused than ever if we be 3T or 4T. I imagine not much has changed regarding where you think we're at, but I'd love it if some or all of the regulars would post a summary of where they think we're at. Thanks!

Alias,

I am copying some of what I wrote on 11/02 in the Phony Fourth thread to answer your question:

But 9/11 did elicit a very strong societal reaction (and did so as a third turning was becoming quite mature) and I think this is what makes this 3T/4T discernment so difficult. Some say 9/11 is instead more like Bleeding Kansas or the Boston Massacre -- precursors, not triggers. To some extent this is probably right.

However, I see it more akin to our society's reaction to WWI and it's Aftermath (anarchist bombings and the Flu epidemic). WWI brought about a stunning patriotism, intense (if impermenant) government action, and a curtailment of civil rights. The anarchist bombings brought about the Palmer Raids and helped trigger anti-immigration sentiments. The Great Influenza Outbreak raised social anxiety several knotches.

Sound familiar? I see fractal echoes in 9/11-inspired patriotism, the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, the Patriot Act, Gitmo, John Ashcroft, various new restrictions and crackdowns on immigration, and a once (and future?) anxiety about SARS. Not exact, but frighteningly similar nonetheless.

NOW . . . warp yourself into an alternate history where the events of 1917-1920 happened later in that third turning instead, say 1924-1927, or thereabouts. If there are any comparisons to be made, that is the one that seems most relevant to me.

So, Alias, to answer your question, I think our post-9/11 world, thus far, has remained 3T, but is experiencing an intense, anxious third turning reaction along the lines of what we experienced 1917-20, except that rather than occuring part way through the 3T, said reaction is occuring right toward the end. In retrospect, (depending upon how the true catalyst manifests itself) this recent period may be hard to parse from the bonafide 4T itself, thus the analogy to the Phony War portion of WWII.

I speculate that this phenomenon-what with the "Patriot Act" and all-may be triggering a political alignment somewhat early. *** ***

Originally Posted by alias

I don't get to visit here as much as the regulars here. I was wondering if some of you might post comments regarding where we are right now in your opinion. Frankly, I'm more confused than ever if we be 3T or 4T. I imagine not much has changed regarding where you think we're at, but I'd love it if some or all of the regulars would post a summary of where they think we're at. Thanks!

I agree with 'yo/Mr. Alphabet' in thinking that we be 3T... but things could easily change in a year and a half...

We're in a stealth 4T, in which the Republican party is trying to use a tiny but highly disciplined majority in the House and Senate to remake America. It is not the slightest exaggeration to say that nothing like this has EVER happened in American history before. The next election is key. If Bush wins and increases his majority. . .welcome to the new Gilded Age. That will not, however, prevent him from wrecking our standing in the world.

David Kaiser '47

Thinking about this, I suppose the main reason we're in a stealth 4T is that the Media remains totally 3T. TOTALLY.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

We're in a stealth 4T, in which the Republican party is trying to use a tiny but highly disciplined majority in the House and Senate to remake America. It is not the slightest exaggeration to say that nothing like this has EVER happened in American history before. The next election is key. If Bush wins and increases his majority. . .welcome to the new Gilded Age. That will not, however, prevent him from wrecking our standing in the world.

David Kaiser '47

Thinking about this, I suppose the main reason we're in a stealth 4T is that the Media remains totally 3T. TOTALLY.

But what of the Courts making things 2T out of the penumbras and emanations. Bush 4T> <SCOTUS 2T = We Be 3T :!:


Remake America? If only.

Heute die Welt und morgens das Sonnensystem! is more the like of President Woodrow W. Bush. 8)

Come on, David. EVER is a long time. Where I live we still be 3rd Turning.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Read more carefully, David. I was referring to the GOP's ruthless exploitation of their tiny minority. If you can find an analogy in our history I'd like to know what it is.

David Kaiser '47

"If Bush wins and increases his majority. . .welcome to the new Gilded Age."

Uh...

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

I was referring to the GOP's ruthless exploitation of their tiny minority.

... gee, methinks the S&H model is due for a radical overhaul. :wink: