Originally Posted by Cato

Originally Posted by RadioHead

Originally Posted by Cato

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Cato, would you connect the dots and say we be early 4T?

As a scientist I objectively see too many 4T things swimming around in my petri dish, like what the article states about pessimism and anger, but I also want to be cautious: I still think the ultimate 4T catalyst is yet to come, that the 9-11/War on Terror is actually only a precursor, which leads me also to hope subjectively that this ultimate crisis is still off in the future, meaning we are still 3T, but metamorphosing quickly!

Given that, and your reference to the rising anger in the body politic, do you believe we're seeing an emerging domestic crisis? That's fits my view, but validation is always a plus.

I always prefer optimism! However, as my wife says, my preference for optimism is another term for being unrealistic!

I want it both ways: given my optimistic hopes, I want the domestic crisis to be resolved quickly, whatever it is. But...

Domestic Crisis Issues:
I suspect the globalization and robotization of the workplace will lead to continued unemployment/underemployment among the proletariat, and it will be irrelevant who is in charge politically. There are several ways out perhaps: one of my favorite ideas - I thought of it ! - allow a kind of deliberate antiquarianism to return for such people who cannot handle the high-tech world. Employ them as carvers, carpenters, hand-craftsmen-women of all kinds in "living museums" or as part of the education system, or simply sell their objects, which would no doubt have a higher quality than anything made by a 3rd-world factory.
Another favorite idea: employ them to bury the power/telephone/cable lines in every part of America. When I was in Europe for a conference, I noticed many cities, especially in Germany, even in older areas, do not have this cat's cradle of wires hanging everywhere. They have buried the wires, and so storms and winds do not blow out the power, trees do not have to be savaged, etc. This could be a CCC style project sponsored by the FedGov and the various industries involved.
Idea Number 3: employ them in a serious environmental clean-up and reforestation project. They would need to be trained about hazardous chemicals, etc. but it would not involve the technical training needed for the high tech world. Again, this could be a CCC style crusade.

The alternative: pass out the checks to the bottom 15%-20% and keep them anesthetized with pop culture so that they don't riot. Panem et circenses!

Interesting from what I can tell that most people do not see rising long-term and insoluble unemployment for the ineducable as a danger. They too often think the union is the answer (look around, Jack!) or that some politician (usually a Democrat, but Republicans promise jobs also) will wave a magic wand and those 1950's assembly lines will be back in action in no time.

And then there is public education: Harper's had an article in the September 2003 issue by a NY state teacher of the year named John Gatto, who is in favor of ending the entire system, and letting people find or found or fund their own schools. I can hear the outcry already: what about the poor, the unemployed you just wrote about? Read the article: a little liberating libertarianism, a little laissez-faire Darwinism might wise up the ones who can be wised up. Or give that $10,000 per pupil that states spend directly to the parents to choose their own school. Imagine a teacher with only 10 students who would receive that $100,000! Imagine how that would revolutionize education! Imagine how that will never be allowed to happen!
I hate class warfare, which is why dislike practically every Democratic candidate. But you will get class warfare I fear if the present divide continues.

In which case, a 4T crisis domestically!

Allow me to quote myself and add an addendum: I read an article about how Utah is spending several hundred million dollars on a public works project connecting major and minor cities and towns to high-speed digital lines. I assume these are fiber optic.

Here is another example of how people who need to work with their hands could be employed for a good number of years nationally.

A colleague here was extolling the wonders of supercomputers for the future, but I do not see how that solves unemployment for the minimum wage workers soon to be replaced by robots with supercomputers controlling them.

Originally Posted by Cato

A colleague here was extolling the wonders of supercomputers for the future, but I do not see how that solves unemployment for the minimum wage workers soon to be replaced by robots with supercomputers controlling them.

I assume that the machines will let them live in Zion for a while.

Originally Posted by monoghan

Originally Posted by Cato

A colleague here was extolling the wonders of supercomputers for the future, but I do not see how that solves unemployment for the minimum wage workers soon to be replaced by robots with supercomputers controlling them.

I assume that the machines will let them live in Zion for a while.

:lol: Do not forget that some rejoined the virtual bread and circuses of the Matrix instead of the freedom of Zion!

From someone who calls Utah, home, " Utopia is not a done deal yet.
Remember, the Land of Zion was also the the Land of Cold Fusion., Home of the Olympic Bribe, and Penny Stock Capital of the World."


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TUESDAY November 18, 2003
Tech agency asks city help for high-speed nirvana





By Steven Oberbeck
The Salt Lake Tribune

Utopia is within reach but taxpayers in 18 Utah cities that are part of an effort to build one of the world's largest fiber-optic networks may one day find there is a cost attached to the promised high-speed Internet nirvana.

The Utah Telecommunication Open Infrastructure Agency, or Utopia, wants to build a $430 million network that will bring a fiber-optic link to all the 248,000 households and 34,500 businesses in Salt Lake City and 17 other municipalities.

In order to get financing in place at a favorable interest rate, the agency on Monday said it will need the 18 cities to guarantee payment of hundreds of millions in bonds Utopia plans to issue to build the network.

With taxpayer guarantees in place, Utopia will only have to pay 6 percent interest on its bonds rather than the 12 percent investors would demand without the cities' backing, said Paul Morris, Utopia executive director. "If we tried to do it [build the network] at 12 percent, it just wouldn't be feasible."

Utopia has yet to approach the 18 cities involved to request a guarantee on the agency's planned debt offering. Those cities include Salt Lake City, Brigham City, Cedar City, Cedar Hills, Centerville, Layton, Lindon, Midvale, Murray, Orem, Payson, Perry, Riverton, Roy, South Jordan, Taylorsville, Tremonton and West Valley City.

"We haven't let them know the amount of their pledge, but that will happen soon," said Morris, who indicated he expects the financial commitments in time for construction to being sometime next spring or summer.

Despite the need for the financing guarantees, Utopia executives continue to portray their project as a low- or no-risk venture. Once built, the network and its city owners would act as a wholesaler and provide access to the fiber-optic lines to private operators that would use them to sell high-speed services, such as video-on-demand, high-definition television and lightning quick Internet connections.

"The wholesale fees from service providers will more than cover debt service and operating costs," Morris contends.

The Utah Taxpayers Association, however, is looking with a skeptical eye at Utopia's proposed network -- a plan that The New York Times on Monday described as "a 21st-century twist on Roosevelt-era public works projects."

"Without taxpayer support, they're looking at a 12 percent interest rate, which is an indication of how much risk investors believe is attached to this project," said Mike Jerman, vice president of the Utah Taxpayers Association.
There are other costs involved as well, he said.

Were a private business to build such a network, the municipalities involved would collect revenue from sales taxes on the cost of construction and fees for allowing the company to use its rights of way, Jerman said. "There are costs involved when governments move to push out the private sector."

But Morris, who likens construction of Utopia's fiber optic network to the government's building of roads, said Comcast, Qwest and other providers of Internet services will be welcome to use Utopia's network, although he acknowledges that isn't going to happen soon.

Utah cable companies over the past five years have invested more than $500 million to upgrade their systems in Utah, including laying miles of fiber optic lines, Comcast spokeswoman Barb Shelley said. "We'll be completing the upgrade of our own network next summer."

Still, Utopia believes that thousands of Utah homeowners and businesses will eagerly drop digital subscriber lines provided by companies such as Qwest, their cable television hookups offered by Comcast and their local telephone services to sign up with competitors offering similar services over a high-speed fiber optic network

Originally Posted by Stephen Pulaski

Anybody doubt that if the "neanderthal" word had come from Rick Santorum or Trent Lott that the media and the PC police would want his head on a stick? There would be demands for his resignation. We know why Kennedy gets a "take my foot out my mouth please" pass. Bias, bias, bias.

How this silly old alcoholic keeps getting reelected is a mystery. I'm glad I'm not in Massachusetts.

The "silly old alcoholic", as you so delicately phrased it, keeps getting re-elected because he keeps bringing home the goods to the people in his home state. Nothing like liberal helpings of govt dollars (pun intended) to keep the locals placated. It's like Ritalin for a nine-year old, and he's the school nurse... (Bleh! The visual that I just got with that was not a pretty thing!)

Originally Posted by cbailey

From someone who calls Utah, home, " Utopia is not a done deal yet.
Remember, the Land of Zion was also the the Land of Cold Fusion., Home of the Olympic Bribe, and Penny Stock Capital of the World."

.........
TUESDAY November 18, 2003
Tech agency asks city help for high-speed nirvana

By Steven Oberbeck
The Salt Lake Tribune

Utopia is within reach but taxpayers in 18 Utah cities that are part of an effort to build one of the world's largest fiber-optic networks may one day find there is a cost attached to the promised high-speed Internet nirvana.

The Utah Telecommunication Open Infrastructure Agency, or Utopia, wants to build a $430 million network that will bring a fiber-optic link to all the 248,000 households and 34,500 businesses in Salt Lake City and 17 other municipalities.

In order to get financing in place at a favorable interest rate, the agency on Monday said it will need the 18 cities to guarantee payment of hundreds of millions in bonds Utopia plans to issue to build the network.

With taxpayer guarantees in place, Utopia will only have to pay 6 percent interest on its bonds rather than the 12 percent investors would demand without the cities' backing, said Paul Morris, Utopia executive director. "If we tried to do it [build the network] at 12 percent, it just wouldn't be feasible."

Utopia has yet to approach the 18 cities involved to request a guarantee on the agency's planned debt offering. Those cities include Salt Lake City, Brigham City, Cedar City, Cedar Hills, Centerville, Layton, Lindon, Midvale, Murray, Orem, Payson, Perry, Riverton, Roy, South Jordan, Taylorsville, Tremonton and West Valley City.

"We haven't let them know the amount of their pledge, but that will happen soon," said Morris, who indicated he expects the financial commitments in time for construction to being sometime next spring or summer.

Despite the need for the financing guarantees, Utopia executives continue to portray their project as a low- or no-risk venture. Once built, the network and its city owners would act as a wholesaler and provide access to the fiber-optic lines to private operators that would use them to sell high-speed services, such as video-on-demand, high-definition television and lightning quick Internet connections.

"The wholesale fees from service providers will more than cover debt service and operating costs," Morris contends.

The Utah Taxpayers Association, however, is looking with a skeptical eye at Utopia's proposed network -- a plan that The New York Times on Monday described as "a 21st-century twist on Roosevelt-era public works projects."

"Without taxpayer support, they're looking at a 12 percent interest rate, which is an indication of how much risk investors believe is attached to this project," ...

But Morris, who likens construction of Utopia's fiber optic network to the government's building of roads, said Comcast, Qwest and other providers of Internet services will be welcome to use Utopia's network...

Still, Utopia believes that thousands of Utah homeowners and businesses will eagerly drop digital subscriber lines provided by companies such as Qwest, their cable television hookups offered by Comcast and their local telephone services to sign up with competitors offering similar services over a high-speed fiber optic network

Now why am I reminded of railroad company claims of bonanza in the 1860s/1870s? And the land grabs and chicanery of the 1880s? And, for that matter, the small towns in Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Colorado, etc., that were left to pay off ridiculous levels of bond debt in the 1890s, fueling huge public outcry and populist uprisings?

I think it was P.T. Barnum who observed that there was a sucker born every day...

Trent Lott or Rick Santorum wouldn't use the word Neanderthal. They wouldn't want to offend their own constituency.

David Kaiser '47

Originally Posted by Stephen Pulaski

Anybody doubt that if the "neanderthal" word had come from Rick Santorum or Trent Lott that the media and the PC police would want his head on a stick? There would be demands for his resignation. We know why Kennedy gets a "take my foot out my mouth please" pass. Bias, bias, bias.

How this silly old alcoholic keeps getting reelected is a mystery. I'm glad I'm not in Massachusetts.

No, Steve, it's because Trent Lott has a long history of consorting with racial supremacists and hails from what was once arguably the most racist state in the union (and, truth be told, probably still is). Would you really say the same of Senator Kennedy and his home Commonwealth of Massachusetts? [I don't know enough about Rick Santorum (R-Pa.?) to even offer a comment.]

I do imagine, however, that Mr. Kennedy keeps getting reelected for the same reason Mr. Lott does-- both their respective constituencies feel that these men represent their interests quite well. That said, what I DON'T understand is why Ted Kennedy wasn't tossed out on his butt (or better yet, jailed) in the wake of the Chappaquidick incident. I was horrified thirty-five years ago, still am whenever I stop to think about it, and don't understand why the people of Massachusetts weren't.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

That said, what I DON'T understand is why Ted Kennedy wasn't tossed out on his butt (or better yet, jailed) in the wake of the Chappaquidick incident.

KP, his brothers' assassinations were still raw and deeply felt nationally. Teddy got a buy as the sole surviving son of the only American royal family of this century (arguably, the other Teddy's family, notwithstanding). Plus, Chappaquiddick erased all hope of another Kennedy presidency for all intents and purposes. So, the viewpoint was that this was punishment enough, in those days. And, JFK's womanizing wasn't commonplace fodder at that point; benefit of the doubt was still possible for a Kennedy.

I'll add that more than a few of my adult GOP colleagues viewed the incidence as similar to relief, as if it were for the best, because the assumption was that a Pres. Teddy'd be mowed down by a bullet, too. Some of my Democrat colleagues saw it as a Nixonian revenge scheme and never believed he was guilty..... Anyway, sorta had to be there as a middle-age average American to get the dispassionate, non-idealogical overall feeling of it, I do believe...

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Trent Lott or Rick Santorum wouldn't use the word Neanderthal. They wouldn't want to offend their own constituency.

David Kaiser '47

Too funny! :lol:

Please stick around and ignore the heel-snipping, David. This forum has sorely missed your presence. Always considered you the best moderator..... by the way, I liked your book very much, and thought it quite even-handed. Ike let himself get snookered into Vietnam to defend oil interests. We aren't all Coulter-bots here, if you get my drift. 8)

Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari

`The world was my oyster, but I used the wrong fork.'



So, what happened? When did rudeness become the rage?

Blame your parents, those wild and crazy baby boomers.

"We can almost pinpoint the decline of manners and etiquette to the 1960s," says Thomas. "Prior to that, families ate together at the dinner table. Manners were reinforced all the time -- conversation, listening skills, dining skills, basic considerations, and even electronic manners in that you didn't take telephone calls during the meal. But then people began not to eat together as much, and that's when the basics were no longer taught.
"One problem these days," she says, "is that, unfortunately, there's a lapse in etiquette when people make too great a deal over things that are inadvertent, offenses that they perceive as being intentional but really are inadvertent oversights. In etiquette, we want to overlook as much as we can. Not everything, of course, but we try to give other people the benefit of the doubt."

Does anyone, even this author, consider that, prior to this last Awakening, there was still a social class system in American society, of which only mostly the higher class levels practiced that which we now know as the Emily Post Rules of Etiquette?

Civil or race rights necessitated that the remains of this system become unofficial (or, rather, evolve to economic castes). Anyone with much age on them will remember vividly that Negros integrating into White society were feared for many reasons by whites, one fear being that they would not know how to behave (which was not founded in reality in large part).

So, Hello?

My point is that many a white person never exhibited these types of manners. Upper-class did, and then the Methodism way of behavior around the turn of the century stressed it in the growing middle class. (ie, if you had proper religion, you were civilized, etc. Since upper education was still the exeception, you didn't necessarily need it, but you did need to have manners to mingle above your class when you could get away with it, and those manners were awfully hard to procure were you not priviledged enough. Read a Henry James or Willa Cather novel for glowing examples of this.)

It's not simply that families stopped eating dinner together. My gosh! Not by a long shot. WAY too complicated and over more time. It goes all over me when writers too young to really know the score look back and just pick an easy answer.....

Originally Posted by Barbara

Does anyone, even this author, consider that, prior to this last Awakening, there was still a social class system in American society, of which only mostly the higher class levels practiced that which we now know as the Emily Post Rules of Etiquette?

Civil or race rights necessitated that the remains of this system become unofficial (or, rather, evolve to economic castes). Anyone with much age on them will remember vividly that Negros integrating into White society were feared for many reasons by whites, one fear being that they would not know how to behave (which was not founded in reality in large part).

So, Hello?

My point is that many a white person never exhibited these types of manners. Upper-class did, and then the Methodism way of behavior around the turn of the century stressed it in the growing middle class. (ie, if you had proper religion, you were civilized, etc. Since upper education was still the exeception, you didn't necessarily need it, but you did need to have manners to mingle above your class when you could get away with it, and those manners were awfully hard to procure were you not priviledged enough. Read a Henry James or Willa Cather novel for glowing examples of this.)

It's not simply that families stopped eating dinner together. My gosh! Not by a long shot. WAY too complicated and over more time. It goes all over me when writers too young to really know the score look back and just pick an easy answer.....

On Manners; that Southern "charm" and style is largely an import from the better sort of people brought to this country in chains by New Englanders from Africa rather than from the lower orders of the British Isles goes too often unremarked. It is often claimed that the youth of America are acting in the manner of urban blacks; I would posit it is WASPery they ape.

That, I grew up in an ethnic group that retained the social system (of a Nordic Grand Duchy) of the Nineteenth Century as did my ethnically southern and eastern European fellow Rangers that stressed family and social ties rather than ones portion of the "take" in our Commercial Republic points to the lag time in our American melting pot. That we Uralics, Slavs, Jews, Italians, etc. were not considered "white" for a great long while may go toward Ms. Allen's point. Even today, Latinos and South Asians and East Asians remain un-Awakened as they reach our shores.


The Awakening has allowed us all to behave as WASP's; it's not a pretty result. Who would be the third K to fill out the Progressive Americanist anti-spelunker combination of Kennedy and Kaiser and K________? Contra Ms. Allen, there still is a social class system in the United States...Boors Rule! One wonders if Homo Neanderthalis would have been thought too precious by the present crowd. :cry:

Yeah, let's all stand up for the Neanderthals!

But remember that once an Old Stone Age man told a New Stone Age man that it was wrong to reshape the rocks that the Great Rock Maker had put there for them to use.

I can not decide if we are in a very rough Third Turning end or a very mild Fourth Turning beginning.

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

I can not decide if we are in a very rough Third Turning end or a very mild Fourth Turning beginning.

I agree (though I'm leaning toward the former).

I've been an on again off again lurker here. S&H changed the way I think of history, and all my academic work fits into their ideas fairly well.

Doesn't it seem like we are in for a culture war cage match soon? I am thinking that Bush is a perfect CW conservative, and the CW liberals would love hillary to run. It also seems like the perfect culture war football would be the gay marriage thing going on right now. Could this election, or 08 bring together this constellation of actors and issue in such a way that we get to see the ultimate cage match?

Originally Posted by mgibbons19

I've been an on again off again lurker here. S&H changed the way I think of history, and all my academic work fits into their ideas fairly well.

Doesn't it seem like we are in for a culture war cage match soon? I am thinking that Bush is a perfect CW conservative, and the CW liberals would love hillary to run. It also seems like the perfect culture war football would be the gay marriage thing going on right now. Could this election, or 08 bring together this constellation of actors and issue in such a way that we get to see the ultimate cage match?

Welcome to T4T. I would think Mr. Bush an imperfect CW conservative with his War on Education, the FDR-like Energy (sic) Bill, the LBJ-like Medicare Bill, the Woodrow Wilsonian War on They who are not democrats, his moderate tone on the Moslem faith, his signing on to CFR.


Is the S.W.O.T.E. against the War on Education, the extension of Federal Power over power, Medicare Reform (sick), the War on Irak, the inclusion of Islam in our Village Square, the Reform of Campaign Money?


They are more alike then not. Ultimate Cage Match--- more the like of some sport played with Nerf balls and No Scoring Allowed (for reasons of self-esteem). The S.W.O.T.E. could easily replace the Vice-President. Few would notice. :oops:

Or at least, that's my thought for the day.

It's my unfavorite Boomer, George W. Bush, who gave me the idea, by comparing himself to Woodrow Wilson in his big London speech. Yup, George, you've got it. Another southerner, sure god is on his side, who intervened in the crisis in Eastern Europe and the Middle East promising to spread democracy to the benighted. Timewise we are actually at about the same point as Wilson's second term, relative to the last crisis. And guess what--it was a disaster and soured the American people on foreign involvement! Wilson, meanwhile, made an attempt to regulate economic competition that wasn't very successful--to change the unregulated structure. Bush is trying to undo the New Deal, but it may be too early for that, just as it was too early for the Progressives to realize their vision.

I agree with our new poster that the culture wars are about to take a very nasty turn. (I was wrong, as Bill S said I was, a few years back, under Clinton, when I suggested they were over.) The right is getting much more aggressive--they have recently convinced a contractor in Austin, Texas--probably the most liberal southern town outside of Florida--to pull out of buildling a new Planned Parenthood clinic while the project is half done! It's the devil's work, you see. The Florida right-to-die case is another issue. If the Supreme Court throws out the partial birth abortion bill, heaven help us.

Incidentally, you might want to go to naral.org, and see the picture of G W Bush signing that bill. It's a beaut. He's surrounded by five grinning, middle aged, paunchy white males. Not a woman in sight. As in Iraq, the president seems determined to confirm all our enemies' stereotypes.

David K '47

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Timewise we are actually at about the same point as Wilson's second term, relative to the last crisis. David K '47

I guess I wuz right all along, eh?

• As Marc Lamb points out, the last time we had a big bomb go off on Wall Street was near the end of the post-WWI "Red Scare." The scare was a reaction to an anarchist / Bolshevist bombing campaign, including mail bombs and coordinated multi-city blasts (on July 2, 1919) that succeeded in partially destroying the residence of Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer. It spawned the notorioius Palmer raids, which in turn may have led to the famous Wall Street bombing of 1920 that killed 20 people. But what did the Red Scare itself trigger? An isolationist reaction, a fervor to shut out the world, a demand to punish as many perpetrators as we could catch and to round up and send the rest "back where they came from." Above all, it triggered a desire to avoid the larger problem--social, economic, political--underlying the violence. We wanted "normalcy." In short, America moved more deeply into a Third Turning, not yet into a Fourth. --Neil Howe and William Strauss, September 13, 2001

Originally Posted by yo

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Timewise we are actually at about the same point as Wilson's second term, relative to the last crisis. David K '47

I guess I wuz right all along, eh?

• As Marc Lamb points out, the last time we had a big bomb go off on Wall Street was near the end of the post-WWI "Red Scare." The scare was a reaction to an anarchist / Bolshevist bombing campaign, including mail bombs and coordinated multi-city blasts (on July 2, 1919) that succeeded in partially destroying the residence of Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer. It spawned the notorioius Palmer raids, which in turn may have led to the famous Wall Street bombing of 1920 that killed 20 people. But what did the Red Scare itself trigger? An isolationist reaction, a fervor to shut out the world, a demand to punish as many perpetrators as we could catch and to round up and send the rest "back where they came from." Above all, it triggered a desire to avoid the larger problem--social, economic, political--underlying the violence. We wanted "normalcy." In short, America moved more deeply into a Third Turning, not yet into a Fourth. --Neil Howe and William Strauss, September 13, 2001

Marc,

I have to hand it to you regarding your courage to take that position in the early days after 9/11. Hats off.

As you probably know, I partially agree with your analysis. I've called this period the "Phony Fourth" because of it's limbo-like status, which reminded me of the 'Was it a war or not?' aspect of the Phony War.

My current take is that our society's reaction to 9/11 compares quite closely to 1917-1920. BUT :!: I see our cycle's expression of this occurring much closer to the point where a 3T/4T is ripe. I am a proponent (subject to change I suppose) of the effects of generational compaction (saecular constipation? ). Look at the last two or three turning transitions and you'll see that generations seem to only need to closely line-up with 21,42,63 for a turning to be triggered, rather than pass significantly beyond those ages.

I am coming around to your view that the past 2+years have demonstrated an intensification of certain third turning traits. Even the ones that are arguably 4T in character have analogs in the intense 3T reactions of 1917-1920. But I disagree that the "real" 4T catalyst is likely 5-10 years off (if that is your position?). I think we're talking any time now. And . . . if people look back and see 9/11 as the point where things started to cascade out of control then the Phony Fourth will turn out to be the opening period of the fourth turning just as the Phony War is considered the opening salvo of WWII in Europe (as unlikely as that was).

In the previous cycle, the battle cry for "normalcy" following WWI and the Wall Street chaos that followed was the battle cry of Warren Harding's presidency, whose hallmark was to be a "return to normalcy". Yet his admistration produced Teapot Dome, which was probably our nation's biggest government scandal before Watergate.

Originally Posted by Brian Beecher

In the previous cycle, the battle cry for "normalcy" following WWI and the Wall Street chaos that followed was the battle cry of Warren Harding's presidency, whose hallmark was to be a "return to normalcy". Yet his admistration produced Teapot Dome, which was probably our nation's biggest government scandal before Watergate.

The Harding administration (and I believe his 1920 campaign) called for a "Return to Normalcy" to be sure. But I am comparing our recent reaction(s) rather to the last years of the Wilson period.

As I've posted elsewhere:
At first glance our efforts at ?Homeland Security? seemed Crisis material. Tom Ridge?s new department would be the largest reorganization of government since the late 1940?s (as a hangover from the last fourth turning). But then again, it was beginning to equally resemble in style if not in function President Wilson?s World War One era [i.e., third turning] War Labor Board. The various congressional authorizations against terrorism were fractal echoes of the Espionage, Sedition, and Enemy Alien Registration Acts, also of Word War One vintage. Moreover, John Ashcroft?s pursuit of internal enemies seemed to essentially resemble Mitchell Palmer?s raids against bomb-wielding anarchists in the years immediately following the Great War (something noted very clearly in this website).

I'd like to add that our recent moves toward a relative hostility of immigration (esp. illegal) is beginning to smell like an analog of the admittedly much more severe anti-immigration reaction of 1920-24.

Well, that got some peoples' attention.

Don't misunderstand me. I don't want to have to go through at least five more years of this. But I do have a feeling that might be ahead. I also think that, if Bush is re-elected, we will be forced into isolationism within five years, for the simple reason that we won't have a friend left in the world. Prophets have a habit of destroying their parents' handiwork, and these Prophets have taken dead aim on the western alliance.

Teapot Dome involved transferring oil leases to the Navy Department, I believe, whose Secretary, Albert Fall, received $100,000 bribe--real money in those days, as Ev Dirksen would have said. I would guess we have the raw material for at least ten teapot domes going in Washington right now.

David K '47

I do remember the Wall Street Bombing analogy from the time. Remember, anarchism came from eastern/southern Europe, which most of us now agree was on an earlier cycle, just as the Middle EAst, or a lot of it is. So the parallel is perfect. Amazing, really.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Well, that got some peoples' attention.

Don't misunderstand me. I don't want to have to go through at least five more years of this. But I do have a feeling that might be ahead. I also think that, if Bush is re-elected, we will be forced into isolationism within five years, for the simple reason that we won't have a friend left in the world. Prophets have a habit of destroying their parents' handiwork, and these Prophets have taken dead aim on the western alliance.

The Western Alliance died the day the Berlin Wall came down.

Was the anarchism a manifestation of an Awakening, something comparable to bombings during the Boom Awakening-but exported overseas? *** ***