Originally Posted by msm

A slim majority of the U.S.'s democratic allies are with the coalition. If you take out France, Germany, and Canada . . . you won't find much opposition left.

You know, it's this kind of thing that makes me doubt whether you are an honest person. France, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, and the U.S. are the world's powerful democracies, and of those one is with us in Iraq -- against the will of its people, I might add, and thus not likely to stay with us much longer. There can be no Union of Democratic States that does not include France, Germany, or Japan. Or Canada. Or Australia. Or New Zealand. None of which have troops in Iraq, and none of which support our policy there.

You're not an idiot, therefore you know this perfectly well. Why do you play games like this?

Originally Posted by msm

A slim majority of the U.S.'s democratic allies are with the coalition. If you take out France, Germany, and Canada . . . you won't find much opposition left.

You know, it's this kind of thing that makes me doubt whether you are an honest person. France, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, and the U.S. are the world's powerful democracies, and of those one is with us in Iraq -- against the will of its people, I might add, and thus not likely to stay with us much longer. There can be no Union of Democratic States that does not include France, Germany, or Japan. Or Canada. Or Australia. Or New Zealand. None of which have troops in Iraq, and none of which support our policy there.

You're not an idiot, therefore you know this perfectly well. Why do you play games like this?

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

Originally Posted by msm

A slim majority of the U.S.'s democratic allies are with the coalition. If you take out France, Germany, and Canada . . . you won't find much opposition left.

You know, it's this kind of thing that makes me doubt whether you are an honest person. France, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, and the U.S. are the world's powerful democracies, and of those one is with us in Iraq -- against the will of its people, I might add, and thus not likely to stay with us much longer.

I am quite honest, and you are quite inaccurate. Japan has troops in Iraq. Japan has been a very staunch* member of the coalition since the beginning.

I will post this first, and then find a link, since you are so uninformed.

Japan bans pork, alcohol for troops in Iraq, urges mustache growing

Japan to send troops to Iraq

Japan's ruling coalition OKs advance troops dispatch to Iraq

As for Great Britain, you are also incorrect.

Protests begin but majority backs Bush visit as support for war surges


A majority of Labour voters welcome President George Bush's state visit to Britain which starts today, according to November's Guardian/ICM opinion poll.

The survey shows that public opinion in Britain is overwhelmingly pro-American with 62% of voters believing that the US is "generally speaking a force for good, not evil, in the world". It explodes the conventional political wisdom at Westminster that Mr Bush's visit will prove damaging to Tony Blair. Only 15% of British voters agree with the idea that America is the "evil empire" in the world.


The U.K. is showing a lot of the same sort of citizen disenchantment with the media elites bias that we have in this country....

===

In the interest of honesty, the phrase "very staunch" was probably mistaken; certainly arguable. Koizumi has been very staunch, but it is very controversial in Japan. Of course, in Japan, any use of their military is very controversial. Koizumi ultimately hopes to change that. His political position is quite secure, even more so than Blair's.

South Korea will soon be as important as Japan on the world stage, so it's interesting to note that S. Korea *almost* sent troops. It was a very close debate.

The supposed unpopularity of the Iraq occupation among the world's democratic populations is very exagerated.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

Originally Posted by msm

A slim majority of the U.S.'s democratic allies are with the coalition. If you take out France, Germany, and Canada . . . you won't find much opposition left.

You know, it's this kind of thing that makes me doubt whether you are an honest person. France, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, and the U.S. are the world's powerful democracies, and of those one is with us in Iraq -- against the will of its people, I might add, and thus not likely to stay with us much longer.

I am quite honest, and you are quite inaccurate. Japan has troops in Iraq. Japan has been a very staunch* member of the coalition since the beginning.

I will post this first, and then find a link, since you are so uninformed.

Japan bans pork, alcohol for troops in Iraq, urges mustache growing

Japan to send troops to Iraq

Japan's ruling coalition OKs advance troops dispatch to Iraq

As for Great Britain, you are also incorrect.

Protests begin but majority backs Bush visit as support for war surges


A majority of Labour voters welcome President George Bush's state visit to Britain which starts today, according to November's Guardian/ICM opinion poll.

The survey shows that public opinion in Britain is overwhelmingly pro-American with 62% of voters believing that the US is "generally speaking a force for good, not evil, in the world". It explodes the conventional political wisdom at Westminster that Mr Bush's visit will prove damaging to Tony Blair. Only 15% of British voters agree with the idea that America is the "evil empire" in the world.


The U.K. is showing a lot of the same sort of citizen disenchantment with the media elites bias that we have in this country....

===

In the interest of honesty, the phrase "very staunch" was probably mistaken; certainly arguable. Koizumi has been very staunch, but it is very controversial in Japan. Of course, in Japan, any use of their military is very controversial. Koizumi ultimately hopes to change that. His political position is quite secure, even more so than Blair's.

South Korea will soon be as important as Japan on the world stage, so it's interesting to note that S. Korea *almost* sent troops. It was a very close debate.

The supposed unpopularity of the Iraq occupation among the world's democratic populations is very exagerated.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

There can be no Union of Democratic States that does not include France, Germany, or Japan. Or Canada. Or Australia. Or New Zealand. None of which have troops in Iraq, and none of which support our policy there.

You're not an idiot, therefore you know this perfectly well. Why do you play games like this?

Boy, did I miss my opening, focusing on Japan. I didn't even finish reading your post until now.

EARTH TO BRAIN RUSH: AUSTRALIA IS THE SINGLE MOST STAUNCH MEMBER OF THE COALITION OUTSIDE THE U.S. NO, I"M NOT FORGETTING THE U.K. IN THIS.

AUSTRALIA HAS HAD TROOPS IN IRAQ FROM DAY ONE. AUSTRALIAN TROOPS TOOK PART IN FIERCE COMBAT AND SAW CASUALTIES. AUSTRALIANS ARE VERY PROUD OF THIS. AUSTRALIA'S POLICY IS SUPPORTED BY THE MAJORITY OF AUSTRALIANS!

Once again, I'll post first, and then find links.

GOD, you a misinformed!!! Have you been living in a cave?

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

There can be no Union of Democratic States that does not include France, Germany, or Japan. Or Canada. Or Australia. Or New Zealand. None of which have troops in Iraq, and none of which support our policy there.

You're not an idiot, therefore you know this perfectly well. Why do you play games like this?

Boy, did I miss my opening, focusing on Japan. I didn't even finish reading your post until now.

EARTH TO BRAIN RUSH: AUSTRALIA IS THE SINGLE MOST STAUNCH MEMBER OF THE COALITION OUTSIDE THE U.S. NO, I"M NOT FORGETTING THE U.K. IN THIS.

AUSTRALIA HAS HAD TROOPS IN IRAQ FROM DAY ONE. AUSTRALIAN TROOPS TOOK PART IN FIERCE COMBAT AND SAW CASUALTIES. AUSTRALIANS ARE VERY PROUD OF THIS. AUSTRALIA'S POLICY IS SUPPORTED BY THE MAJORITY OF AUSTRALIANS!

Once again, I'll post first, and then find links.

GOD, you a misinformed!!! Have you been living in a cave?

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

You're not an idiot, therefore you know this perfectly well. Why do you play games like this?

I often ask myself that, and then I discover that the opposition, such as yourself, really is misinformed, and my efforts seem worthwhile.

Jeez, Justin, I bet YOU knew that the Aussies were in Iraq. Didn't this come up before?

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

You're not an idiot, therefore you know this perfectly well. Why do you play games like this?

I often ask myself that, and then I discover that the opposition, such as yourself, really is misinformed, and my efforts seem worthwhile.

Jeez, Justin, I bet YOU knew that the Aussies were in Iraq. Didn't this come up before?

Originally Posted by msm

As for Great Britain, you are also incorrect.

Protests begin but majority backs Bush visit as support for war surges

That link is six months old. Got any current polling data on Great Britain?

Originally Posted by msm

As for Great Britain, you are also incorrect.

Protests begin but majority backs Bush visit as support for war surges

That link is six months old. Got any current polling data on Great Britain?

Also, while we're talking about polls, the Iraqis themselves aren't too thrilled with the US occupation.

Also, while we're talking about polls, the Iraqis themselves aren't too thrilled with the US occupation.

Originally Posted by msm

GOD, you a misinformed!!! Have you been living in a cave?

Cave = ABCNBCCBSPBSNPRNEWYORKTIMESORANYMAJORNEWSPAPERINTH EWORLD.

Originally Posted by msm

GOD, you a misinformed!!! Have you been living in a cave?

Cave = ABCNBCCBSPBSNPRNEWYORKTIMESORANYMAJORNEWSPAPERINTH EWORLD.

THE MELBOURNE AGE, home of the Australia's left, comes out in support of the war in March 2003.


...The Prime Minister stated the case for war in a compelling fashion. He argued that a policy of containment could not work and would simply cause more suffering in Iraq. He argued that the opponents of a resolution in the Security Council authorising military action against Iraq offered no reasonable alternative way of disarming Saddam along the lines demanded by the council's unanimous resolution 1441.

Mr Howard may not have convinced the doubters or those who oppose him. We believe, as we have said before, that Iraq must be disarmed of weapons of mass destruction. In his speech on Thursday, Mr Howard made a powerful case.


PM commits troops to war

Australians support the war

Australian SAS in Iraqi firefight

I could go on, but why bother?

Brian: in Spring 2003, the coalition was frequently referred to in the media as the "American/British/Austrialian" coalition. Where were you?

This is like talking about D-Day without knowing that there were British troops involved.

THE MELBOURNE AGE, home of the Australia's left, comes out in support of the war in March 2003.


...The Prime Minister stated the case for war in a compelling fashion. He argued that a policy of containment could not work and would simply cause more suffering in Iraq. He argued that the opponents of a resolution in the Security Council authorising military action against Iraq offered no reasonable alternative way of disarming Saddam along the lines demanded by the council's unanimous resolution 1441.

Mr Howard may not have convinced the doubters or those who oppose him. We believe, as we have said before, that Iraq must be disarmed of weapons of mass destruction. In his speech on Thursday, Mr Howard made a powerful case.


PM commits troops to war

Australians support the war

Australian SAS in Iraqi firefight

I could go on, but why bother?

Brian: in Spring 2003, the coalition was frequently referred to in the media as the "American/British/Austrialian" coalition. Where were you?

This is like talking about D-Day without knowing that there were British troops involved.

And in all of this, we have forgotten G-7 member Italy, which supports the U.S. in Iraq and, as recently as April 2004, was reported to have 2700 troops there.

And scrappy Poland even got it's own sector to patrol, much to Germany's embarrasment. Go Poland!

Back to the "Coalition of Democracies" idea, the Italian prime minister is a vocal proponent of it. (My noting this is not to be constued as being in agreement with every thing that comes out of the Italian prime minister's mouth)

And in all of this, we have forgotten G-7 member Italy, which supports the U.S. in Iraq and, as recently as April 2004, was reported to have 2700 troops there.

And scrappy Poland even got it's own sector to patrol, much to Germany's embarrasment. Go Poland!

Back to the "Coalition of Democracies" idea, the Italian prime minister is a vocal proponent of it. (My noting this is not to be constued as being in agreement with every thing that comes out of the Italian prime minister's mouth)

Originally Posted by msm

THE MELBOURNE AGE, home of the Australia's left, comes out in support of the war in March 2003.


...The Prime Minister stated the case for war in a compelling fashion. He argued that a policy of containment could not work and would simply cause more suffering in Iraq. He argued that the opponents of a resolution in the Security Council authorising military action against Iraq offered no reasonable alternative way of disarming Saddam along the lines demanded by the council's unanimous resolution 1441.

Mr Howard may not have convinced the doubters or those who oppose him. We believe, as we have said before, that Iraq must be disarmed of weapons of mass destruction. In his speech on Thursday, Mr Howard made a powerful case.


PM commits troops to war

Australians support the war

Australian SAS in Iraqi firefight

I could go on, but why bother?

How do the Aussies feel now? The general public, not just the government.

Originally Posted by msm

THE MELBOURNE AGE, home of the Australia's left, comes out in support of the war in March 2003.


...The Prime Minister stated the case for war in a compelling fashion. He argued that a policy of containment could not work and would simply cause more suffering in Iraq. He argued that the opponents of a resolution in the Security Council authorising military action against Iraq offered no reasonable alternative way of disarming Saddam along the lines demanded by the council's unanimous resolution 1441.

Mr Howard may not have convinced the doubters or those who oppose him. We believe, as we have said before, that Iraq must be disarmed of weapons of mass destruction. In his speech on Thursday, Mr Howard made a powerful case.


PM commits troops to war

Australians support the war

Australian SAS in Iraqi firefight

I could go on, but why bother?

How do the Aussies feel now? The general public, not just the government.

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

How do the Aussies feel now? The general public, not just the government.

I don't know; I'd have to look it up. I'm not actually obsessed with this, although apparently my disinterest in the subject pales compared to Brian's.

(Sorry, that's not true; I just had to get one last dig in there. Buck up, Brian; it's only an obscure web board. I'm sure if we actually had to debate these things in real life, we'd be more careful with our facts.)

In actuality, I know that Australia's polls run pretty similar to the U.S.'s on this subject, hovering around fifty-fifity, with surges here or there as events occur. Here's a recent snapshot:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1100595.htm

Apparently, as of April 5:

45 per cent of those polled backed "staying until the job is done",

46 per cent believed the war was justified while 45 per cent said it was not,

yet

50 per cent of those polled do not believe it was worth invading Iraq while 40 per cent continue to support the decision.

You know how polls are. During various times in the civil war, a near majority in the Union backed a negotiated end to the war. Wait until after the Olympics, with all the human interest stories about the Iraqi team not being tortured for losing anymore. As an added bonus, the games will be in Greece, where they all hate us ever since Clinton bombed Serbia. It oughta be interesting...

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

How do the Aussies feel now? The general public, not just the government.

I don't know; I'd have to look it up. I'm not actually obsessed with this, although apparently my disinterest in the subject pales compared to Brian's.

(Sorry, that's not true; I just had to get one last dig in there. Buck up, Brian; it's only an obscure web board. I'm sure if we actually had to debate these things in real life, we'd be more careful with our facts.)

In actuality, I know that Australia's polls run pretty similar to the U.S.'s on this subject, hovering around fifty-fifity, with surges here or there as events occur. Here's a recent snapshot:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1100595.htm

Apparently, as of April 5:

45 per cent of those polled backed "staying until the job is done",

46 per cent believed the war was justified while 45 per cent said it was not,

yet

50 per cent of those polled do not believe it was worth invading Iraq while 40 per cent continue to support the decision.

You know how polls are. During various times in the civil war, a near majority in the Union backed a negotiated end to the war. Wait until after the Olympics, with all the human interest stories about the Iraqi team not being tortured for losing anymore. As an added bonus, the games will be in Greece, where they all hate us ever since Clinton bombed Serbia. It oughta be interesting...

And let's not forget Saddam's trial, which undoubtably will include as evidence the of hundreds of videotaped tortures during Saddam's regime...

And let's not forget Saddam's trial, which undoubtably will include as evidence the of hundreds of videotaped tortures during Saddam's regime...

(Boogers aside) I can feel the cold winds now. Iraq going poorly. Oil prices up. Inflation up. AQ sawing off somebody's head (what the hell were they thinking?). Sooner or later the poor sap with the SUV is going to stand there with the nozzle in his hand and realize it is about oil. I ask again, how is SoCal going to work when gas prices get higher? It won't, and that will help solidify and accelerate economic problems.

So this crisis is going to be about resources, terrorism via culture clash, and economics. All rolled into one.

Strange days are indeed afoot.