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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 355







Post#8851 at 07-25-2004 08:03 PM by Ciao [at joined Mar 2002 #posts 907]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chris Seamans '75
Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush
Chris, you keep missing the point.

It doesn't matter whether Bush said or did anything.
Of course not. Because, of course, President Bush is clearly an evil, evil, man. Just as President Clinton was clearly an evil, evil, man in the eyes of the black helicopter crowd. To the respective True Believers in the party out of power, each was literally the wellspring of all evil in the world.
I don't think Bush is evil, I just feel he is a misguided, poor excuse for a President. What even compelled him to run in the first place? Why did he feel the calling to lead a nation of 280 million?
Don't you feel disappointed in the leadership of a country that huge?
I mean, in tiny Great Britain they can produce a Tony Blair who's like Fred Astaire he's so fast on his feet. He has to sit in the House of Commons and answer everybody's inane question and take the heat, and he's done it quite well. Is Bush capable of that? Of really being responsible for his actions? The guy won't give a speech in front of a crowd that isn't handpicked.
What I don't get about the Bush crowd, and Bill Maher echoed this on Larry King the other night, is why they are so detached from reality and enamoured with their leader (whom they barely chose after a close race with McCain) that they cannot see his own faults.
I saw Bill Clinton's faults. the guy couldn't keep his facts straight or his pants on. In fact, I'm glad that Clinton is out of his leadership role. i want a new Democratic party that isn't about the self-obsessed clintons and more about other people.
Bush people would never be so frank in their assessment of Bush. Perhaps its some sort of outgrowth of evangelical Christianity to not question and to rely so much on "faith" - but come on.
Earth to Bush supporters! Permission to land!







Post#8852 at 07-25-2004 11:24 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush
Chris, you keep missing the point.

It doesn't matter whether Bush said or did anything. It doesn't matter that the suggestion came from the commission. All that matters is that the suggestion was put forward, and the public associated it with Bush -- and rejected it with great vigor and noise.

Bush cannot be trusted, that's the bottom line. He has already demonstrated his willingness to monkey with the electoral process.
When did this happen? (If you're talking about Florida 2000, you're simply wrong.)


Luckily, thanks to this release, it isn't going to happen.
Realistically, there was never any chance of it even being tried.







Post#8853 at 07-25-2004 11:29 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush
Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
Kevin, the election won't be delayed, bar national disaster on an unprecedented scale. There won't even be any attempt at it.
I agree. But I also think that this is true precisely because a big stink was made in response to the trial balloon.
It wasn't a trial balloon, Brian. Bush and Rove aren't stupid, even if we assume they want to tamper with the election timing (for which there is literally zero evidence), they have to know the attempt could only backfire.

This won't be the last such story. As the election approaches, the media and the Democrats will grab every possible thing they can throw out to keep the base stoked.







Post#8854 at 07-25-2004 11:33 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush
I would think war with Iran might be in the picture should that happen. Another reason we'd best make sure it doesn't.
Actually, I suspect war with Iran is a probably going to happen without regard to who wins in November. The question is the exact time and circumstances.







Post#8855 at 07-25-2004 11:43 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush
Chris, you keep missing the point.

It doesn't matter whether Bush said or did anything. It doesn't matter that the suggestion came from the commission. All that matters is that the suggestion was put forward, and the public associated it with Bush -- and rejected it with great vigor and noise.
The public barely noticed it.

This is something we on this forum (including me at times, and I have no excuse since I do know better) tend to forget. We tend to be politically engaged more-or-less on an ongoing basis. Most of the country isn't.

This is a lot of why the Howard Dean 'phenomenon' turned out to be ephemeral. The only Democrats paying much attention to the election prior to the start of 2004 and the primary season, were the hard-core liberal types, the steadily engaged ones who are passionately outraged by Bush. They were Dean's core supporters.

The rest of the Democratic voting rank-and-file only started paying attention after the start of the new year, and Dean did not appeal to them nearly as strongly. Kerry played for their votes in a sharp, smart effort that enabled him to annihilate Dean when the crunch came (with some help from a dirty tricks campaign by the Party establishment).

But all the excitement over Dean was coming from a relatively thin group all through last year, amplified by media attention into the illusion of a large phenomenon.

The same thing continues to be true, on a larger scale, now. It's only with the start of the Democratic Convention tomorrow that another big swath of the public will even begin paying attention to the election. Still another group of even-less-engaged voters won't start paying attention until Labor Day.

It's only then that the public will really be fully engaged. From our POV, the election is over a year old now and has been going on through round after round of maneuver and counter-maneuver. To a very large part of the U.S. electorate, the election is just really getting started.







Post#8856 at 07-27-2004 04:11 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chris Seamans '75
Because, of course, President Bush is clearly an evil, evil, man. Just as President Clinton was clearly an evil, evil, man
By one standard of morality or another, both of those are evil men. Clinton is an adulterer who tells whoppers. The difference is that his kind of evil has no bearing on whether or not he is likely to want to seize a dictatorship. As he put it himself in a recent interview, when he left office over two-thirds of the people believed he was a good president, but many of those two-thirds believed he was not a good man.

Bush is not a good man, either. And he is the kind of bad man who might make himself a dictator, whereas Clinton is not.

Quote Originally Posted by Hopeful Cynic '68
When did this happen? (If you're talking about Florida 2000, you're simply wrong.)
No I'm not. The Bush brothers conspired to deny the vote to thousands of African-Americans in Florida most of whom were believed (rightly) to be likely Gore voters. That demonstrates his willingness to monkey with the electoral process.

Realistically, there was never any chance of it even being tried.
If that is true, it's because the people won't stand for it. So I hope you're right.

Actually, I suspect war with Iran is a probably going to happen without regard to who wins in November.
Care to make that a bet if Kerry wins? Let's talk again in November.







Post#8857 at 07-27-2004 04:20 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush
The Bush brothers conspired to deny the vote to thousands of African-Americans in Florida most of whom were believed (rightly) to be likely Gore voters. That demonstrates his willingness to monkey with the electoral process.
And they tried to do it this year, too. But people got wind of it, and now the list has been thrown out.







Post#8858 at 07-27-2004 10:05 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chris Seamans '75
Keep on trucking, Brian, and maybe you'll find that Templar treasure yet! Just watch out for those Freemasons--they have access to alien technology.
Ah!!! A fellow lover of Dan Brown's works!
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#8859 at 08-06-2004 04:58 PM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...us/teacher_sex

Judge Lifts Letourneau No-Contact Order

1 hour, 25 minutes ago

SEATTLE - A King County Superior Court judge on Friday agreed to lift a no-contact order between Mary Kay Letourneau and her former sixth-grade pupil, Vili Fualaau, with whom she had two children.

The King County Prosecutor's Office did not object to Fualaau's motion that the order be lifted, said spokesman Dan Donohoe. Fualaau is now 21.

Letourneau was released Wednesday after completing a seven-year term for child rape. She's staying with friends at a home in the Boulevard Park neighborhood south of Seattle.

Fualaau was in New York to appear on the "Today" show. He told the show he's looking forward to seeing Letourneau and their two children and deciding if they can have a life together.
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didnīt replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#8860 at 08-06-2004 09:18 PM by casewestwill [at North Coast joined Aug 2004 #posts 98]
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That was then

Quote Originally Posted by Nomanissen Island
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&e=6&u=/ap/20040806/ap_on_re_us/teacher_sex

Judge Lifts Letourneau No-Contact Order

1 hour, 25 minutes ago

SEATTLE - A King County Superior Court judge on Friday agreed to lift a no-contact order between Mary Kay Letourneau and her former sixth-grade pupil, Vili Fualaau, with whom she had two children.

The King County Prosecutor's Office did not object to Fualaau's motion that the order be lifted, said spokesman Dan Donohoe. Fualaau is now 21.

Letourneau was released Wednesday after completing a seven-year term for child rape. She's staying with friends at a home in the Boulevard Park neighborhood south of Seattle.

Fualaau was in New York to appear on the "Today" show. He told the show he's looking forward to seeing Letourneau and their two children and deciding if they can have a life together.
That was then, this is now.







Post#8861 at 08-12-2004 04:51 PM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
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Re: That was then

Quote Originally Posted by casewestwill
That was then, this is now.
Tell me about it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in635631.shtml

NJ Gov. Comes Out Of Closet, Quits
TRENTON, N.J., Aug. 12, 2004

New Jersey Gov. James E. McGreevey announced his resignation Thursday and used a news conference to acknowledge that he had an extramarital affair with another man.

"I am a gay American," McGreevey said. He announced he would resign effective November 15.

The governor spent the afternoon meeting with advisers and staff members to discuss his political future.

McGreevey is reportedly being named in a sexual harrassment lawsuit by a former male aide.

McGreevey, a Democrat and former suburban mayor, took office 2 1/2 years ago, and despite inheriting a $5 billion budget deficit, he steadfastly refused to boost income taxes for most New Jerseyans, instead raising taxes on millionaires, casinos and cigarettes.

But he has been dogged by several scandals involving fund-raising.

Among those caught up in recent scandals were his first chief of staff and former counsel; a top Democratic fund-raiser and former high school classmate; and real estate developer Charles Kushner, McGreevey's biggest campaign contributor, who was charged with trying to thwart a federal campaign-finance investigation.

He would be the second governor to resign in weeks, following the resignation in June of Connecticut GOP Gov. John Rowland amid corruption investigations and threats of impeachment.

McGreevey rose from suburban mayor to state chief executive by his tenacious pursuit of party politics, maintaining a power base days after he narrowly lost to Republican Christie Whitman in 1997.

McGreevey never truly stopped that campaign until he won in November 2001, beating Republican Bret Schundler by 15 percentage points.

Born in Jersey City, McGreevey graduated from Columbia University in 1978. He earned a law degree from Georgetown University in 1981 and a master's degree in education from Harvard University a year later.

After briefly serving as a county prosecutor, McGreevey became a lobbyist for a pharmaceutical company, then a state government official. While in the Legislature, McGreevey voted for Gov. Jim Florio's $2.8 billion tax hike that prompted a voter rebellion against Democrats.

?MMIV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didnīt replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#8862 at 08-12-2004 05:51 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Re: That was then

Quote Originally Posted by Hamish MacPherson
Quote Originally Posted by casewestwill
That was then, this is now.
Tell me about it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in635631.shtml

NJ Gov. Comes Out Of Closet, Quits
TRENTON, N.J., Aug. 12, 2004

New Jersey Gov. James E. McGreevey announced his resignation Thursday and used a news conference to acknowledge that he had an extramarital affair with another man.

"I am a gay American," McGreevey said. He announced he would resign effective November 15.

The governor spent the afternoon meeting with advisers and staff members to discuss his political future.

McGreevey is reportedly being named in a sexual harrassment lawsuit by a former male aide.



?MMIV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Isn't that "adulterous American"?
Was he married to another man or was his spouse female? That would make him a bisexual American?

Or a Spartan, or is James McGreevey an Attic name at all? Oh, Mr. Rush, Mr. Rush could we have a ruling over here at Present?

Did he forget about the gifting of armor, a cup, and a male Bovine-American for his male aide? What's the real story here? :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:







Post#8863 at 08-12-2004 06:41 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Re: That was then

Quote Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari
Quote Originally Posted by Hamish MacPherson
Quote Originally Posted by casewestwill
That was then, this is now.
Tell me about it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in635631.shtml

NJ Gov. Comes Out Of Closet, Quits
TRENTON, N.J., Aug. 12, 2004

New Jersey Gov. James E. McGreevey announced his resignation Thursday and used a news conference to acknowledge that he had an extramarital affair with another man.

"I am a gay American," McGreevey said. He announced he would resign effective November 15.

The governor spent the afternoon meeting with advisers and staff members to discuss his political future.

McGreevey is reportedly being named in a sexual harrassment lawsuit by a former male aide.



?MMIV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Isn't that "adulterous American"?
Was he married to another man or was his spouse female? That would make him a bisexual American?

Or a Spartan, or is James McGreevey an Attic name at all? Oh, Mr. Rush, Mr. Rush could we have a ruling over here at Present?

Did he forget about the gifting of armor, a cup, and a male Bovine-American for his male aide? What's the real story here? :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:
:lol: :lol:

I swear, this world gets more and more interesting. Does anyone here follow New Jersey politics? Did anyone see this coming? I don't think most Americans had a clue.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#8864 at 08-12-2004 07:23 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Braveheart on the Hudson

?Shamefully, I engaged in adult consensual affairs with another man, which violates my bonds of matrimony,? said McGreevey, 47, the married father of two. ?It was wrong. It was foolish. It was inexcusable.?
Steven Fisher, a spokesman for the Human Rights Campaign, which advocates for gay and lesbian causes, told MSNBC-TV: ?Coming out is a deeply personal journey, and Governor McGreevey today showed enormous courage.?
Bondage escaped, bravery displayed, NTTIAWWT







Post#8865 at 08-12-2004 07:48 PM by Finch [at In the belly of the Beast joined Feb 2004 #posts 1,734]
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Re: This is now

Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
I swear, this world gets more and more interesting. Does anyone here follow New Jersey politics? Did anyone see this coming? I don't think most Americans had a clue.
According to a number of posters on DailyKos, his orientation, and relationship with the intern, have been an open secret (at least in the gay community) for a couple of years now. He's resigning not because he had an affair -- or because he's gay -- but because his lover, who is on the Gov's payroll, was about to call a press conference to "out" him as part of a sexual harassment claim.

In addition, this was probably part of a larger effort at damage control on the part of the Dems: the NJ Governor has been surrounded by allegations of fund-raising abuses (in New Joisey? I'm shocked, shocked!!) and having him announce his resignation now, but not actually leave office until after the election, is probably the best way to minimize the "backlash" -- he will be replaced by the (somewhat more popular) State Senate President (a Democrat), who won't have to stand for reelection until 2006, and by then the issue will be mostly forgotten.

So, in other words, this have nothing to do with the fact that he is a "gay American", and everything to do with the fact that he is a New Jersey politician.







Post#8866 at 08-12-2004 09:11 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Re: This is now

Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hirst
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
I swear, this world gets more and more interesting. Does anyone here follow New Jersey politics? Did anyone see this coming? I don't think most Americans had a clue.
According to a number of posters on DailyKos, his orientation, and relationship with the intern, have been an open secret (at least in the gay community) for a couple of years now. He's resigning not because he had an affair -- or because he's gay -- but because his lover, who is on the Gov's payroll, was about to call a press conference to "out" him as part of a sexual harassment claim.

In addition, this was probably part of a larger effort at damage control on the part of the Dems: the NJ Governor has been surrounded by allegations of fund-raising abuses (in New Joisey? I'm shocked, shocked!!) and having him announce his resignation now, but not actually leave office until after the election, is probably the best way to minimize the "backlash" -- he will be replaced by the (somewhat more popular) State Senate President (a Democrat), who won't have to stand for reelection until 2006, and by then the issue will be mostly forgotten.

So, in other words, this have nothing to do with the fact that he is a "gay American", and everything to do with the fact that he is a New Jersey politician.
Ah, so things are normal after all . . . :wink:
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#8867 at 08-13-2004 10:03 AM by monoghan [at Ohio joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,189]
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Re: This is now

Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hirst
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
I swear, this world gets more and more interesting. Does anyone here follow New Jersey politics? Did anyone see this coming? I don't think most Americans had a clue.
According to a number of posters on DailyKos, his orientation, and relationship with the intern, have been an open secret (at least in the gay community) for a couple of years now. He's resigning not because he had an affair -- or because he's gay -- but because his lover, who is on the Gov's payroll, was about to call a press conference to "out" him as part of a sexual harassment claim.

In addition, this was probably part of a larger effort at damage control on the part of the Dems: the NJ Governor has been surrounded by allegations of fund-raising abuses (in New Joisey? I'm shocked, shocked!!) and having him announce his resignation now, but not actually leave office until after the election, is probably the best way to minimize the "backlash" -- he will be replaced by the (somewhat more popular) State Senate President (a Democrat), who won't have to stand for reelection until 2006, and by then the issue will be mostly forgotten.

So, in other words, this have nothing to do with the fact that he is a "gay American", and everything to do with the fact that he is a New Jersey politician.
Ah, so things are normal after all . . . :wink:
Rick is right. After all, corruption is not even illegal in New Jersey.







Post#8868 at 08-13-2004 10:51 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Re: This is now

Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hirst
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
I swear, this world gets more and more interesting. Does anyone here follow New Jersey politics? Did anyone see this coming? I don't think most Americans had a clue.
According to a number of posters on DailyKos, his orientation, and relationship with the intern, have been an open secret (at least in the gay community) for a couple of years now. He's resigning not because he had an affair -- or because he's gay -- but because his lover, who is on the Gov's payroll, was about to call a press conference to "out" him as part of a sexual harassment claim.

In addition, this was probably part of a larger effort at damage control on the part of the Dems: the NJ Governor has been surrounded by allegations of fund-raising abuses (in New Joisey? I'm shocked, shocked!!) and having him announce his resignation now, but not actually leave office until after the election, is probably the best way to minimize the "backlash" -- he will be replaced by the (somewhat more popular) State Senate President (a Democrat), who won't have to stand for reelection until 2006, and by then the issue will be mostly forgotten.

So, in other words, this have nothing to do with the fact that he is a "gay American", and everything to do with the fact that he is a New Jersey politician.
Ah, so things are normal after all . . . :wink:
Rick is right. After all, corruption is not even illegal in New Jersey.
:lol:
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#8869 at 08-13-2004 06:52 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Re: This is now

Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hirst
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
I swear, this world gets more and more interesting. Does anyone here follow New Jersey politics? Did anyone see this coming? I don't think most Americans had a clue.
According to a number of posters on DailyKos, his orientation, and relationship with the intern, have been an open secret (at least in the gay community) for a couple of years now. He's resigning not because he had an affair -- or because he's gay -- but because his lover, who is on the Gov's payroll, was about to call a press conference to "out" him as part of a sexual harassment claim.

In addition, this was probably part of a larger effort at damage control on the part of the Dems: the NJ Governor has been surrounded by allegations of fund-raising abuses (in New Joisey? I'm shocked, shocked!!) and having him announce his resignation now, but not actually leave office until after the election, is probably the best way to minimize the "backlash" -- he will be replaced by the (somewhat more popular) State Senate President (a Democrat), who won't have to stand for reelection until 2006, and by then the issue will be mostly forgotten.

So, in other words, this have nothing to do with the fact that he is a "gay American", and everything to do with the fact that he is a New Jersey politician.
Ah, so things are normal after all . . . :wink:
Rick is right. After all, corruption is not even illegal in New Jersey.
:lol:
I don't know whether to upchuck at the latest news from the Garden State, or simply be grateful that I no longer live in NJ. I remember growing up during the 70s that scandal and rumour, small and large, neighborhood- to state-wide, were the order of the day. In fact, wondering who was going to drop the ball next week actually made for a bizarre form of entertainment that's peculiarly Jersey. But that was the Awakening, and frankly it's no longer very amusing. In a Fourth Turning, an era when America needs leaders who lead instead of shooting themselves in the foot, the McGreavey debacle is particularly disgusting to witness.







Post#8870 at 08-14-2004 05:48 PM by Acton Ellis [at Eastern Minnesota joined May 2004 #posts 94]
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Some scary stuff

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte.../328/7454/1458

This is from the British Medical Journal. I can't imagine that someone with a mental illness would want the government in charge of their treatment.

Bush plans to screen whole US population for mental illness
Jeanne Lenzer
New York


A sweeping mental health initiative will be unveiled by President George W Bush in July. The plan promises to integrate mentally ill patients fully into the community by providing "services in the community, rather than institutions," according to a March 2004 progress report entitled New Freedom Initiative (http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ne.../toc-2004.html). While some praise the plan's goals, others say it protects the profits of drug companies at the expense of the public.

Bush established the New Freedom Commission on Mental Health in April 2002 to conduct a "comprehensive study of the United States mental health service delivery system." The commission issued its recommendations in July 2003. Bush instructed more than 25 federal agencies to develop an implementation plan based on those recommendations.

The president's commission found that "despite their prevalence, mental disorders often go undiagnosed" and recommended comprehensive mental health screening for "consumers of all ages," including preschool children. According to the commission, "Each year, young children are expelled from preschools and childcare facilities for severely disruptive behaviours and emotional disorders." Schools, wrote the commission, are in a "key position" to screen the 52 million students and 6 million adults who work at the schools.

The commission also recommended "Linkage [of screening] with treatment and supports" including "state-of-the-art treatments" using "specific medications for specific conditions." The commission commended the Texas Medication Algorithm Project (TMAP) as a "model" medication treatment plan that "illustrates an evidence-based practice that results in better consumer outcomes."

Dr Darrel Regier, director of research at the American Psychiatric Association (APA), lauded the president's initiative and the Texas project model saying, "What's nice about TMAP is that this is a logical plan based on efficacy data from clinical trials."

He said the association has called for increased funding for implementation of the overall plan.

But the Texas project, which promotes the use of newer, more expensive antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs, sparked off controversy when Allen Jones, an employee of the Pennsylvania Office of the Inspector General, revealed that key officials with influence over the medication plan in his state received money and perks from drug companies with a stake in the medication algorithm (15 May, p1153). He was sacked this week for speaking to the BMJ and the New York Times.

The Texas project started in 1995 as an alliance of individuals from the pharmaceutical industry, the University of Texas, and the mental health and corrections systems of Texas. The project was funded by a Robert Wood Johnson grant?and by several drug companies.

Mr Jones told the BMJ that the same "political/pharmaceutical alliance" that generated the Texas project was behind the recommendations of the New Freedom Commission, which, according to his whistleblower report, were "poised to consolidate the TMAP effort into a comprehensive national policy to treat mental illness with expensive, patented medications of questionable benefit and deadly side effects, and to force private insurers to pick up more of the tab" (http://psychrights.org/Drugs/AllenJo...PJanuary20.pdf).

Larry D Sasich, research associate with Public Citizen in Washington, DC, told the BMJ that studies in both the United States and Great Britain suggest that "using the older drugs first makes sense. There's nothing in the labeling of the newer atypical antipsychotic drugs that suggests they are superior in efficacy to haloperidol [an older "typical" antipsychotic]. There has to be an enormous amount of unnecessary expenditures for the newer drugs."



Drug companies have contributed three times more to the campaign of George Bush, seen here campaigning in Florida, than to that of his rival John Kerry

Olanzapine (trade name Zyprexa), one of the atypical antipsychotic drugs recommended as a first line drug in the Texas algorithm, grossed $4.28bn (?2.35bn; 3.56bn) worldwide in 2003 and is Eli Lilly's top selling drug. A 2003 New York Times article by Gardiner Harris reported that 70% of olanzapine sales are paid for by government agencies, such as Medicare and Medicaid.

Eli Lilly, manufacturer of olanzapine, has multiple ties to the Bush administration. George Bush Sr was a member of Lilly's board of directors and Bush Jr appointed Lilly's chief executive officer, Sidney Taurel, to a seat on the Homeland Security Council. Lilly made $1.6m in political contributions in 2000?82% of which went to Bush and the Republican Party.

Jones points out that the companies that helped to start up the Texas project have been, and still are, big contributors to the election funds of George W Bush. In addition, some members of the New Freedom Commission have served on advisory boards for these same companies, while others have direct ties to the Texas Medication Algorithm Project.

Bush was the governor of Texas during the development of the Texas project, and, during his 2000 presidential campaign, he boasted of his support for the project and the fact that the legislation he passed expanded Medicaid coverage of psychotropic drugs.

Bush is the clear front runner when it comes to drug company contributions. According to the Center for Responsive Politics (CRP), manufacturers of drugs and health products have contributed $764 274 to the 2004 Bush campaign through their political action committees and employees?far outstripping the $149 400 given to his chief rival, John Kerry, by 26 April.

Drug companies have fared exceedingly well under the Bush administration, according to the centre's spokesperson, Steven Weiss.

The commission's recommendation for increased screening has also been questioned. Robert Whitaker, journalist and author of Mad in America, says that while increased screening "may seem defensible," it could also be seen as "fishing for customers," and that exorbitant spending on new drugs "robs from other forms of care such as job training and shelter programmes."

But Dr Graham Emslie, who helped develop the Texas project, defends screening: "There are good data showing that if you identify kids at an earlier age who are aggressive, you can intervene... and change their trajectory."







Post#8871 at 08-14-2004 11:46 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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08-14-2004, 11:46 PM #8871
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Earning your Congressional Mousepads

'Tis Pity She's a Blogette

The lawyer wasn't the only man giving her cash. She'd been meeting a married Bush appointee in Washington hotels for months. She genuinely liked him, she says. The first time he handed her an envelope with cash in it she says she was surprised, grateful and more than a little embarrassed. "I wasn't a hooker charging him," she insists.

"I felt guilty about the money," she says. "The whole premise for that was that he's married, we cannot go out together, we cannot be seen together, there's no future . . . So the money was like consideration for that. It was really like a gift. Unfortunately, I became dependent on that income." She was only earning $25,000 a year, she says. How could anyone live on that?

Jessica's friends weren't shocked by her talk of sex for money. They knew she was writing about it in the most exaggerated, offhand way possible to amuse them, and they weren't about to judge her. "It sounds bad, but it's really a perspective thing," Robertson says. "These were guys were giving her money for reasons of their own. She never asked them for money. She never said, 'If I do this, you give me that.' "
:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:







Post#8872 at 08-15-2004 04:37 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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08-15-2004, 04:37 AM #8872
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Re: Some scary stuff

Quote Originally Posted by Acton Ellis
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte.../328/7454/1458

This is from the British Medical Journal. I can't imagine that someone with a mental illness would want the government in charge of their treatment.

Bush plans to screen whole US population for mental illness
Jeanne Lenzer
New York


A sweeping mental health initiative will be unveiled by President George W Bush in July. The plan promises to integrate mentally ill patients fully into the community by providing "services in the community, rather than institutions," according to a March 2004 progress report entitled New Freedom Initiative (http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ne.../toc-2004.html). While some praise the plan's goals, others say it protects the profits of drug companies at the expense of the public.

Bush established the New Freedom Commission on Mental Health in April 2002 to conduct a "comprehensive study of the United States mental health service delivery system." The commission issued its recommendations in July 2003. Bush instructed more than 25 federal agencies to develop an implementation plan based on those recommendations.

The president's commission found that "despite their prevalence, mental disorders often go undiagnosed" and recommended comprehensive mental health screening for "consumers of all ages," including preschool children. According to the commission, "Each year, young children are expelled from preschools and childcare facilities for severely disruptive behaviours and emotional disorders." Schools, wrote the commission, are in a "key position" to screen the 52 million students and 6 million adults who work at the schools.

The commission also recommended "Linkage [of screening] with treatment and supports" including "state-of-the-art treatments" using "specific medications for specific conditions." The commission commended the Texas Medication Algorithm Project (TMAP) as a "model" medication treatment plan that "illustrates an evidence-based practice that results in better consumer outcomes."

Dr Darrel Regier, director of research at the American Psychiatric Association (APA), lauded the president's initiative and the Texas project model saying, "What's nice about TMAP is that this is a logical plan based on efficacy data from clinical trials."

He said the association has called for increased funding for implementation of the overall plan.

But the Texas project, which promotes the use of newer, more expensive antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs, sparked off controversy when Allen Jones, an employee of the Pennsylvania Office of the Inspector General, revealed that key officials with influence over the medication plan in his state received money and perks from drug companies with a stake in the medication algorithm (15 May, p1153). He was sacked this week for speaking to the BMJ and the New York Times.

The Texas project started in 1995 as an alliance of individuals from the pharmaceutical industry, the University of Texas, and the mental health and corrections systems of Texas. The project was funded by a Robert Wood Johnson grant?and by several drug companies.

Mr Jones told the BMJ that the same "political/pharmaceutical alliance" that generated the Texas project was behind the recommendations of the New Freedom Commission, which, according to his whistleblower report, were "poised to consolidate the TMAP effort into a comprehensive national policy to treat mental illness with expensive, patented medications of questionable benefit and deadly side effects, and to force private insurers to pick up more of the tab" (http://psychrights.org/Drugs/AllenJo...PJanuary20.pdf).

Larry D Sasich, research associate with Public Citizen in Washington, DC, told the BMJ that studies in both the United States and Great Britain suggest that "using the older drugs first makes sense. There's nothing in the labeling of the newer atypical antipsychotic drugs that suggests they are superior in efficacy to haloperidol [an older "typical" antipsychotic]. There has to be an enormous amount of unnecessary expenditures for the newer drugs."



Drug companies have contributed three times more to the campaign of George Bush, seen here campaigning in Florida, than to that of his rival John Kerry

Olanzapine (trade name Zyprexa), one of the atypical antipsychotic drugs recommended as a first line drug in the Texas algorithm, grossed $4.28bn (?2.35bn; 3.56bn) worldwide in 2003 and is Eli Lilly's top selling drug. A 2003 New York Times article by Gardiner Harris reported that 70% of olanzapine sales are paid for by government agencies, such as Medicare and Medicaid.

Eli Lilly, manufacturer of olanzapine, has multiple ties to the Bush administration. George Bush Sr was a member of Lilly's board of directors and Bush Jr appointed Lilly's chief executive officer, Sidney Taurel, to a seat on the Homeland Security Council. Lilly made $1.6m in political contributions in 2000?82% of which went to Bush and the Republican Party.

Jones points out that the companies that helped to start up the Texas project have been, and still are, big contributors to the election funds of George W Bush. In addition, some members of the New Freedom Commission have served on advisory boards for these same companies, while others have direct ties to the Texas Medication Algorithm Project.

Bush was the governor of Texas during the development of the Texas project, and, during his 2000 presidential campaign, he boasted of his support for the project and the fact that the legislation he passed expanded Medicaid coverage of psychotropic drugs.

Bush is the clear front runner when it comes to drug company contributions. According to the Center for Responsive Politics (CRP), manufacturers of drugs and health products have contributed $764 274 to the 2004 Bush campaign through their political action committees and employees?far outstripping the $149 400 given to his chief rival, John Kerry, by 26 April.

Drug companies have fared exceedingly well under the Bush administration, according to the centre's spokesperson, Steven Weiss.

The commission's recommendation for increased screening has also been questioned. Robert Whitaker, journalist and author of Mad in America, says that while increased screening "may seem defensible," it could also be seen as "fishing for customers," and that exorbitant spending on new drugs "robs from other forms of care such as job training and shelter programmes."

But Dr Graham Emslie, who helped develop the Texas project, defends screening: "There are good data showing that if you identify kids at an earlier age who are aggressive, you can intervene... and change their trajectory."
All I know is that when you walk down Market Street in San Francisco you have to walk through "the gauntlet", i.e.., the two or three blocks around 6th Street where half the schizophrenics in the city will hit you up for money. And that's not the only unsavory spot. It reminds me of New York City . . . fifteen years ago.

We could Giulianiize SF (yeah, like that would ever happen) but I have a feeling all he did was somehow export his nutjobs to Jersey. There's gotta be a better solution.

We need to overcome the Right Wing bozo's who can't "find" enough money to properly house and care for these poor souls (but they can find money to throw them in prison once one of their hallucinations ends up as a homicide) and the Left Wing sh*theads who espouse "homeless rights" and other such utter nonesense that shirks both the individual's and the community's responsibility to get their urine-reeking @sses off the sidewalk.

Bush's plan sounds good on the face of it, and Lord knows we need to do something about this problem, but the fact that Bush is involved in this, and that drug companies almost certainly have a hand in it, screams RED FLAG to me up and down the boulevard. I'm half inclined to joke that he'll somehow merge this with the Patriot Act and drug up and detain (sine habeas corpus) "mentally unstable" elements.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#8873 at 08-15-2004 04:37 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Re: Some scary stuff

*******
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#8874 at 08-16-2004 03:50 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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08-16-2004, 03:50 AM #8874
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Make of this what you will. It's from the UK, but it has a 'feel' of decreasing individual liberties about it, and it has a Boomerish feel.

Children of Criminals To Be Targeted and Tracked







Post#8875 at 08-17-2004 08:09 PM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
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Here come da nukes!

Please pardon the interruption, but I'm having memes about the re-thinkability of using nuclear weapons in Iraq, and maybe even in Afghanistan. Just now a debate arises in the respectable journal Scientific American (August 2004) over the pros and cons of deploying Bunker-Busting Nuclear Missiles, especially in the bunker-infested Middle East.

You can read all about the technical advantages: deep penetration, wide radius of destruction, minimal fall out -- you know, the usual stuff that justifies it all in the end -- the 4T end?

Are we winding up for another nuclear punch? The last one or two certainly did leave their marks on history.

--Croakmore
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