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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 364







Post#9076 at 10-02-2004 02:42 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Re: Bastards!

Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hirst
Welcome to T4T! 8)

Quote Originally Posted by Harv
Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hirst
Every single foreign and domestic policy decision should be oriented toward eliminating the need for oil imports within 5 years. Otherwise, we're going to be fighting, and losing, a war with China within 10 years.
why on earth would we be fighting a war against China at all? Yes, in case of a sharp drop in oil production as a result of the oil peak, both countries would be badly needing oil to operate their massive economies, and a war between them would only waste more oil for both. The "winner" of the war wouldn't be in control of any more oil, either. And don't think such a war could be fought in the middle east...the Chinese don't have the capability to project force that far abroad.
Short answer: it's the way of the saeculum.

Long answer: tensions have been escalating with China for some time. Oil supply is one issue; there's also outsourcing and the current account deficit, not to mention Taiwan and Tibet. We're on a collision course, and nothing I see in the current Administration's policies is moving us away from that collision.

Yes, of course it would collossally stupid to wage war with China, not the least because we are both nuclear powers. But we both have self-images that are explicitly imperialist, and that trend is only strengthening. Once the credit bubble bursts, tensions will continue to ratchet up until the unthinkable becomes thinkable. To be honest, I'm with the Frog on this one.
Agreed. We see ourselves, even without neocons, as the (at least last) guarantor of freedom in the world. Furthermore, one of our most fundamental global policies as a hegemonic power is to not allow any one Eurasian power to dominate the old world so as to best leverage our tremendous naval advantage. What's more again, we will be loathe to allow another power challenge us again navally in the Pacific. Taiwan fits into all this above one way or another.

China historically sees itself as the "Primary Nation", sometimes translated euphemistically as the "Middle Kingdom". That's what "Joong-gwoh", Chinese for "China", literally means. Their worldview puts China in the center of the universe in a sense more embedded than other nations when they do the same.

Indeed, for much of history China has been the largest, richest, and most powerful nation/kingdom/empire on the planet. From this long perspective they see the last few centuries of inferiority as superficial and temporary. They are becoming more confident that they are inevitably returning to their proper place as China now grows economically, technologically, and militarily.

Also there are growing tensions within their society that are worrisome. Fantastic economic growth has left in it's wake demographic and environmental stresses of an astounding nature. It is well known in environmental circles that China is courting disaster with deforestation, dessication, pollution, etc . . . . And hundreds of millions are moving from the rural areas into cities per decade. The cities are not able to handle the strain. With the "One Child" policy having been in place now for over a quarter century, the significantly lop-sided number of young males is a recipe for social instability even without the problems above exaccerbating the problem.

With Communism in de facto disrepute, the Communist party has ironically morphed into a nationalist party in all but name. All of the above leads me to believe a "Galtieri mentality" (think: Malvinas) is very, very possible. That is, keep the people distracted with nationalist pursuits.

I could go on. But for the reasons stated above and the facts that both nations are heading into 4T's soon, I see the potential for some kind of confrontation as very high.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9077 at 10-03-2004 11:40 PM by Opusaug [at Ft. Myers, Florida joined Sep 2001 #posts 7]
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Hmmn. What's this?

http://ariagoesdown.blogspot.com/200...tioned-to.html

So yes, I think Karl "parachutes are genius!" Rove is a moron. Yes, it makes my ears bleed when I hear Bush stumble over the simplest of syntax. Yes, I hate the war in Iraq ? but when left to the Dems we let Kenya go, Nairobi go, the Cole, the first bombing of the WTC and we were rewarded with 9/11. But on 9/11 I was a New Yorker, as I?ve been for 32 years. With my entire family within a 15 mile radius. And on 9/12 I smelled that acrid air and knew what I was smelling. And I don?t ever want to smell that again. I don?t want to see those sobbing faces all over the news again. Sure, there are countries and people who hate us. But you know what? When you are the United States, free, diverse, rich and happy, someone, somewhere will always hate you. So to appease them all seems stupid. And unnecessary, as no country can survive without a handout from the U.S. from time to time, so they?ll just have to get over it at some point and come back to us, hand out and open as usual. And yes, I feel that what goes on in my body is my business. And I don't care that some believe a fetus is a life because you know what? Christian Scientists believe you can buy or chant or whateverthefuck a cancerous tumor out of yourself and I wouldn't want them dictating right-to-life issues either. And yes, it pisses me off that the GOP thinks they have the right to point at any section of society and declare them less than the rest. I don't like the govt. declaring who I should discriminate against. Gays can?t get married? well why the fuck not?!! The Constitution says all men are created equal, well to me, that means gays are entitled to marry. Rick Santorum, you suck and to echo the sentiments of one Ken Wheaton, I wish homosexuality on all your children. But here?s what it boils down to?

If I?m wearing a burqa or a body bag, I can?t have an abortion anyway.

So ~ I?m outing myself. There?s an elephant in the room ladies and gentlemen. I?m not saying where I?ll stand when 2008 arrives {although if Kerry wins my guess is 6 feet south}. But this year? I?m voting for the guy that wants to save my life. Not the one who, with the blessing of the U.N., might at some point, be willing to avenge it afterwards.

Fuck you John Kerry, you?re a pussy.
Sure sounds to me like some people are deciding what a 4T should be about and throwing all other issues overboard.

And they say they're voting that way, too.
Christopher O'Conor
13er, '68 cohort







Post#9078 at 10-04-2004 01:13 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chris'68
Hmmn. What's this?

http://ariagoesdown.blogspot.com/200...tioned-to.html

[snip]

Sure sounds to me like some people are deciding what a 4T should be about and throwing all other issues overboard.

And they say they're voting that way, too.
So your point is that a lot of people are voting for Bush because the issues all boil down to deterring terrorism (which invading Iraq was somehow about), or that they should vote that way?
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9079 at 10-05-2004 09:44 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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3T Troubles with toothpicks

The makers, directors Matt Stone and Trey Parker and producer Scott Rudin, are contesting the MPAA classification, saying that the film doesn't show anything that's not been seen before in other R-rated movies. And besides, Rudin told the Hollywood Reporter, "our characters are made of wood and have no genitalia. If the puppets did to each other what we show them doing, all they'd get is splinters."

...Parker pointed to the differences between the MPAAs treatment of simulated violence and simulated sex. Team America features violent scenes in which a Tim Robbins puppet is set on fire and a Susan Sarandon puppet is dropped off a 20-story building - all acts that passed MPAA muster
Puppet oral sex goes against grain for US censors

What's good for the POTUS is good for the puppet! :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:







Post#9080 at 10-05-2004 03:06 PM by Boean [at MA joined Mar 2004 #posts 97]
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Vandals targeting Democrat's office in LA

Vandals targeting Democrat's office in PA:

Sign of the impending Crisis or sign of a divisive election year, your call...







Post#9081 at 10-05-2004 04:42 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by Boean
Vandals targeting Democrat's office in LA

Vandals targeting Democrat's office in PA:

Sign of the impending Crisis or sign of a divisive election year, your call...
Both? Decisive election for sure. But hell, my friends and I pulled down Mondale-Ferraro posters all over Manhattan in 1984. Kids and fanatics will do what kids and fanatics will do!

As for whether this is the Crisis trigger or not, who knows? All I (think I) know is that the trigger is due.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9082 at 10-05-2004 06:23 PM by Andy '85 [at Texas joined Aug 2003 #posts 1,465]
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Post#9083 at 10-06-2004 03:48 AM by monoghan [at Ohio joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,189]
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Don't forget the union thugs invading the Bush-Cheney offices in Florida. This is more than youthful vandalism, this is much more sinister.
The Main Stream Media is to the media as the Mainline Protestant congregations are to Christianity.







Post#9084 at 10-06-2004 03:59 PM by monoghan [at Ohio joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,189]
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Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Don't forget the union thugs invading the Bush-Cheney offices in Florida. This is more than youthful vandalism, this is much more sinister.
The brownshirts have invaded the BC headquarters in Milwaukee as well. See Drudge link. Of course, nothing in the main stream media. So we have "nudge nudge wink wink, say no more," here and in the MSM.

The cliff approaches. Where's Titus when you need him?

Update: I don't want to leave this as whimsical. This political violence crosses the line and demands broad condemnation. Silence will mean implicit approval.







Post#9085 at 10-06-2004 04:47 PM by jeffw [at Orange County, CA--dob 1961 joined Jul 2001 #posts 417]
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Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Don't forget the union thugs invading the Bush-Cheney offices in Florida. This is more than youthful vandalism, this is much more sinister.
The brownshirts have invaded the BC headquarters in Milwaukee as well. See Drudge link. Of course, nothing in the main stream media. So we have "nudge nudge wink wink, say no more," here and in the MSM.

The cliff approaches. Where's Titus when you need him?

Update: I don't want to leave this as whimsical. This political violence crosses the line and demands broad condemnation. Silence will mean implicit approval.
Just a few bad apples...
Jeff '61







Post#9086 at 10-06-2004 04:49 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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The only thing preventing this election from maybe turning out like the one in 1860, when the South went nuts over Lincoln's victory by siezing a federal fort, is the fact that two states, New York and California, most likely to lead a secession are governed by Republicans.







Post#9087 at 10-06-2004 04:49 PM by monoghan [at Ohio joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,189]
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Quote Originally Posted by jeffw
Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Don't forget the union thugs invading the Bush-Cheney offices in Florida. This is more than youthful vandalism, this is much more sinister.
The brownshirts have invaded the BC headquarters in Milwaukee as well. See Drudge link. Of course, nothing in the main stream media. So we have "nudge nudge wink wink, say no more," here and in the MSM.

The cliff approaches. Where's Titus when you need him?

Update: I don't want to leave this as whimsical. This political violence crosses the line and demands broad condemnation. Silence will mean implicit approval.
Just a few bad apples...
So that's one for approval.







Post#9088 at 10-06-2004 05:42 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Nobody here is advocating shootings, threats, or ripping up yard signs.







Post#9089 at 10-06-2004 07:44 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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I guess that's what you would call crashing the party. :lol: :lol:
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#9090 at 10-06-2004 07:47 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Crashing The Party

Protesters crashing the offices of both the Democrats and Republicans could be a 4T event. But it largely depends on the reaction, and how widespread this event is. If this results in widespread repeated attacks, then it is a very good 4T indicator.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#9091 at 10-06-2004 10:53 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by monoghan

The cliff approaches. Where's Titus when you need him?
Indeed!!!

I hope his wife will give him a temporary reprieve and let him post!
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9092 at 10-06-2004 10:55 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Quote Originally Posted by jeffw
Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Don't forget the union thugs invading the Bush-Cheney offices in Florida. This is more than youthful vandalism, this is much more sinister.
The brownshirts have invaded the BC headquarters in Milwaukee as well. See Drudge link. Of course, nothing in the main stream media. So we have "nudge nudge wink wink, say no more," here and in the MSM.

The cliff approaches. Where's Titus when you need him?

Update: I don't want to leave this as whimsical. This political violence crosses the line and demands broad condemnation. Silence will mean implicit approval.
Just a few bad apples...
So that's one for approval.
I doubt that Mon. I think he's making a (very witty) reference to Bush's handling of Abu Ghraib. 8)
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9093 at 10-06-2004 10:57 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
The only thing preventing this election from maybe turning out like the one in 1860, when the South went nuts over Lincoln's victory by siezing a federal fort, is the fact that two states, New York and California, most likely to lead a secession are governed by Republicans.
My God! An astute point . . . for a change. Very good Trog, keep taking those pills.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9094 at 10-06-2004 11:03 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Don't forget the union thugs invading the Bush-Cheney offices in Florida. This is more than youthful vandalism, this is much more sinister.
Agreed . . . on both sides, Dem and GOP. I think this violence is inspired, if not sometimes actually carried out, by late midlife Boomers. This does not primarily smack of Xer nihilism or Millie coming-of-age antics.

Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Update: I don't want to leave this as whimsical. This political violence crosses the line and demands broad condemnation. Silence will mean implicit approval.
Quote Originally Posted by Kiff 1961
Nobody here is advocating shootings, threats, or ripping up yard signs.
I agree with both of you and chime in. We should all add our voices to that chorus. :shock:

Quote Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru
Protesters crashing the offices of both the Democrats and Republicans could be a 4T event. But it largely depends on the reaction, and how widespread this event is. If this results in widespread repeated attacks, then it is a very good 4T indicator.
Agreed. Could the nonsense seen in the satirical The Second Civil War (1997) actually happen???
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9095 at 10-06-2004 11:03 PM by monoghan [at Ohio joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,189]
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Quote Originally Posted by Kiff 1961
Nobody here is advocating shootings, threats, or ripping up yard signs.
Ah, but if it had been Kerry headquarters, I dare say that the condemnations would be ringing. Again, silence is approval.

Is this how you (plural) want to win? You accept these allies? You hate Bush that much to tolerate this level of copycat (if not organized) political violence?

Hey, folks, this is just how the KKK got away with what they did for years. Just some good old boys (few rotten apples) doing stuff that just happens to redound to your benefit, right? This stinks.







Post#9096 at 10-06-2004 11:08 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Quote Originally Posted by Kiff 1961
Nobody here is advocating shootings, threats, or ripping up yard signs.
Ah, but if it had been Kerry headquarters, I dare say that the condemnations would be ringing. Again, silence is approval.

Is this how you (plural) want to win? You accept these allies? You hate Bush that much to tolerate this level of copycat (if not organized) political violence?

Hey, folks, this is just how the KKK got away with what they did for years. Just some good old boys (few rotten apples) doing stuff that just happens to redound to your benefit, right? This stinks.
Mon, it's happening on BOTH sides. Don't let Matt Drudge make you think it is one-sided. But I agree with you that it is disturbing and everyone here should condemn it . . . even if it happens to the headquarters of the Communist or Christian Nationalist parties. I'm serious.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9097 at 10-06-2004 11:16 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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My God. And this is in the RED Zone! :shock:







Post#9098 at 10-07-2004 09:03 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by monoghan
Is this how you (plural) want to win? You accept these allies? You hate Bush that much to tolerate this level of copycat (if not organized) political violence?
I thought I made myself perfectly clear above. And I highly resent your continued accusations and straw man arguments with no basis in fact.

I don't believe in violence as a means to a political end. I thought you understood that.

Having said that, however, I'm not at all surprised that it is going on this year, on either side. Not at all. This is a highly charged, emotional election.







Post#9099 at 10-07-2004 11:11 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59
My God. And this is in the RED Zone! :shock:
Of course. The Red Zone is the more violent in general. :|
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#9100 at 10-07-2004 11:21 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59
My God. And this is in the RED Zone! :shock:
If Bush takes a red state in a huge landslide (let's say 60 percent Bush, 38 percent Kerry, 2 percent other), that is still well over a third of the electorate who dislike Bush enough to vote for a "Nor-eastern lib'ral". That's a lot of mad Southerners.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008
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