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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 365







Post#9101 at 10-08-2004 12:04 AM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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The Biggest Florida Hurricane of All

Election Fears Are the Latest Hurricane for Sunshine State
BY Jonathan Tilove
c.2004 Newhouse News Service

MIAMI -- Patrick Merloe travels the globe promoting free and fair elections. Everywhere from Afghanistan to Angola, he says, he is asked the same question: "What's happening in Florida?"

On this day Merloe, director of electoral programs for the Washington-based National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, is at "ground zero" -- a union hall in the neighborhood known as Liberty City, training a packed house of activists, mostly black and some Hispanic, in how to get out the vote, guard the vote and, need be, mobilize in the days after the vote to prevent a replay of 2000 when, he says to murmurs of affirmation, "I know the election was stolen."

Meanwhile, 67 miles due north, at the new GOP Action Headquarters in West Palm Beach, Gay Hart Gaines, president of the Palm Beach Republican Club, wonders, "Do they really believe that?"

After all, from the Republican vantage point, says Sid Dinerstein, the party's county chairman, Democrats are the perennial electoral grifters whose cries of racism and disenfranchisement are a cynical smokescreen for their mischief. "They've been cheating for generations," he says.

Nov. 2 may come and go without incident. It may be remembered as a calm and orderly occasion that produced a clear and decisive winner. But less than a month out, there are mounting fears here and elsewhere that the election results are going to be contested in ways that make 2000 look like a dress rehearsal. No election in modern times has arrived to such scrutiny and amid such suspicion, even dread.

"If you don't have a clear result, if you have a muddled result of any kind, it's going to cause a constitutional crisis," says Roger Stone, the veteran Republican political strategist who now operates from an office in South Beach. "It will be cataclysmic."

Michael Genovese, a leading scholar of the presidency from Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles, agrees. Absent a clean and clear outcome, "I think this could get ugly and could get very divisive and undermine the very legitimacy of the next president." The very scrutiny intended to prevent a crisis may only inflame it, Genovese adds.

Already, the campaigns of George W. Bush and John Kerry -- not to mention the panoply of nonpartisan and independent political groups operating in their slipstreams and the observers, analysts and activists bobbing in their wakes -- are eyeing Nov. 2 as perhaps a beginning, not an end.

Paula Polsyn, a liberal activist from Broward County, arrives at a Kerry event at the massive Kings Point condo complex in Tamarac, nursing a bad vibe. "I'm very, very, very worried -- very worried," she says. If history repeats itself, "We're going to have a revolution in this country."

At a panel discussion about potential election problems at the University of Miami Law School, Muslima Lewis, president of the black bar association in Miami-Dade County, predicts that if another election gives rise to feelings that black voters were not fairly treated, "there will be tremendous unrest -- there will be."

Florida, of course, has no exclusive franchise on electoral mayhem. The margin of victory was even smaller in New Mexico four years ago than here, and controversy could as easily fall in that land of enchantment, in Arizona, Nevada, Oregon, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania or any other closely fought state on which the Electoral College majority comes to hinge.

But until then, Florida has first claim to the nation's attention, because it happened here before and because, in another compelling plot point, the president's brother, Jeb Bush, remains governor.

Like other states, Florida is contending with a crush of new registrations and applications for absentee balloting, with early voting, with the new federal requirement that voters be allowed to cast a "provisional ballot" subject to later verification if their registration is in doubt, and with sometimes confusing rules about when photo identification is required.

Fifteen of the larger Florida counties are also now using touch-screen voting. U.S. Rep. Robert Wexler, D-Fla., has filed suit because they don't permit the paper trail without which, he contends, the recounts mandated in very close elections cannot proceed.

This presents a novel dilemma, according to Ronnie Dugger, founder of the populist Alliance for Democracy, who first wrote about the perils of computerized vote fixing in The New Yorker in 1988. In 2000, by Dugger's calculation, 12 million people cast electronic paperless ballots. This year the number will be 35 million.

"We are approaching the first national election in history where we know in advance that the outcome will not be knowable if it's a close election," Dugger says.

To this angst, add an Election Day scene at select precincts that may well be worthy of Fellini.

The unofficial observers from the Voices for Working Families crew -- the ones being trained at the union hall in Liberty City -- will gather at the polls wearing their trademark red T-shirts as an alert to those who may need help. Some will deploy clickers to make their own vote counts.

Another "Election Protection" coalition of liberal, nonpartisan groups -- including People for the American Way, the NAACP, the American Civil Liberties Union and the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law -- will send lawyers and law students to key precincts in unprecedented numbers -- 2,000 in Florida alone. Their T-shirts and signs will bear the message "Having trouble voting? Call us." They will carry disposable cameras to record infractions.

International observers will include an official team, invited by Secretary of State Colin Powell, from the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. The assembly's current president is none other than U.S. Rep. Alcee Hastings, D-Fla., one of the Congressional Black Caucus members whose effort to block certification of the Electoral College results in January 2001 was considered a powerful scene in the Michael Moore movie "Fahrenheit 9/11." (Hastings has recused himself from his organization's election monitoring project in the United States.)

The Kerry campaign and the Democratic National Committee this week announced they will dispatch as many as 10,000 lawyers across America on Election Day and have established five post-election "SWAT teams" to hit the ground running wherever they might be needed.

"We'll have attorneys everywhere, ready to go to court," says Raul Martinez, the Democratic mayor of Hialeah.

Underpinning this effort is the conviction, submerged somewhat after Sept. 11 but back now with a vengeance, that, in Martinez's words, "It was stolen last time. It was. It's a fact."

To Republicans, that's a "myth," an "urban legend" designed especially to rouse black voters, in the description of Andre Cadogan, chairman of the Black Republican Caucus of Palm Beach County.

"It's `Rashomon,"' says Roger Stone. "There is no eternal truth. Everybody has a strong claim that they're right in terms of the way this came out."

Stone is not affiliated with Bush this year. But in 2000, he helped organize the successful effort to shut down the recount in Miami-Dade. The Bush team won, he says, because "they have very sharp elbows."

A year after the election, according to the Gallup Poll, half the public thought Bush had won fair and square, 32 percent thought he won on a technicality, and 15 percent thought he stole it. But a recent New York Times poll found that among black respondents, 93 percent believe the 2000 result was not legitimate.

And as Bush's presidency has become increasingly consequential, the Democratic pain has grown more keen. As West Palm Beach Mayor Lois Frankel put it, "What happened here changed the history of the world in very unfortunate ways."

Compounding the raw feelings among black Floridians are historic and obvious white efforts to keep them from voting and more recent Republican "ballot security measures," which Democrats and civil rights groups view as subtle attempts to diminish the black vote.

"There is so much history around suppressing the vote," says Reginald Mitchell, who is Florida Election Protection director for People for the American Way.

At the press conference where the Democrats revealed their endgame legal strategy, they also unveiled an ad for black radio that bluntly suggests Republicans want only whites to vote. It begins: "George Bush and the Republicans will tell you to vote. That you're part of the process, a part of history. Yep, that's what you'll hear. If you're white."

Asked by a reporter to explain the justification, Dennis Archer, the former Detroit mayor and American Bar Association president, fired back that Republicans were playing "head games" in their ads on black radio, and that "if we stood idly by and did absolutely nothing, you would write about how the Democratic Party happens to be a bunch of jerks. Sorry, that is not going to happen."

To Republicans, the real voting scandal is not restrictive access to the ballot, but the contrary.

Early in his new book, "Stealing Elections: How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy," Wall Street Journal columnist John Fund notes that election systems are so bad that at least eight of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers were registered voters.

In August, a New York Daily News investigation found that some 46,000 New Yorkers were registered to vote in both the city and in Florida, and that by nearly a 6-to-1 margin, they were registered Democrats.

"These guys think Mayor Daley's a hero," says Dinerstein, the Palm Beach County GOP chairman.

Indeed, at the Kerry event the next day at Kings Point, Joe Schreiber, a resident and the mayor of Tamarac, warms up the crowd with condemnation of "unscrupulous" Republicans and some nostalgic words about FDR's New Deal, and the old politics of Chicago's Daley.

"Years ago it was vote early and often, the cemetery thing," Schreiber says. "We've got to do what we can."

Republicans can play their strategy closer to the vest. They were considered to have had the superior legal operation in place early on. And -- at least in critical states like Florida and Ohio -- they control the levers of government.

"I don't think there are unprecedented efforts, at least on our side," says Eric Buermann, who was the Florida Republican Party's general counsel in 2000 and is now counsel to the Miami-Dade GOP. After all, he adds, "what happened in 2000 was sort of the 100-year flood. I don't think we're going to see that for another 100 years."

Then again, he reminds himself, "we did just have four hurricanes."
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#9102 at 10-12-2004 02:15 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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My wife told me that today at lunch her coworkers brought up the topic of severe civil unrest in light of another screwed up election. Election fraud and violence were the topic for a good twenty minutes, and discussion got passionate (mixed Xer/Boomer crowd). She didn't even bring up "fourth turnings" or anything as her knowledge of it all is limited. But she's becoming more convinced that S&H are onto something in terms of something big coming up in society.

Another common theme coming up again and again is how things just don't seem to work right anymore. I hear it at my job, my wife hears it, my Dad, my Mom, my friends. Everywhere!

My explanation is the we are at the very, very end of a 3T and individualism and institutional decay are now becoming seriously dysfunctional. Society just cannot go on this way with pressure mounting like this. Even if E2K4 is not the trigger, some event will be set it off in the not too distant future. I don't see us lasting this way to 2008.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9103 at 10-12-2004 04:45 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
My wife told me that today at lunch her coworkers brought up the topic of severe civil unrest in light of another screwed up election. Election fraud and violence were the topic for a good twenty minutes, and discussion got passionate (mixed Xer/Boomer crowd). She didn't even bring up "fourth turnings" or anything as her knowledge of it all is limited. But she's becoming more convinced that S&H are onto something in terms of something big coming up in society.

Another common theme coming up again and again is how things just don't seem to work right anymore. I hear it at my job, my wife hears it, my Dad, my Mom, my friends. Everywhere!

My explanation is the we are at the very, very end of a 3T and individualism and institutional decay are now becoming seriously dysfunctional. Society just cannot go on this way with pressure mounting like this. Even if E2K4 is not the trigger, some event will be set it off in the not too distant future. I don't see us lasting this way to 2008.
If you think Bush wins this time, as I and several others do, then 2006 is the transition election. That may be better, because who would guess?

Care to join the 2006 chorus? 8)
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#9104 at 10-12-2004 05:39 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by Sam I Am
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
My wife told me that today at lunch her coworkers brought up the topic of severe civil unrest in light of another screwed up election. Election fraud and violence were the topic for a good twenty minutes, and discussion got passionate (mixed Xer/Boomer crowd). She didn't even bring up "fourth turnings" or anything as her knowledge of it all is limited. But she's becoming more convinced that S&H are onto something in terms of something big coming up in society.

Another common theme coming up again and again is how things just don't seem to work right anymore. I hear it at my job, my wife hears it, my Dad, my Mom, my friends. Everywhere!

My explanation is the we are at the very, very end of a 3T and individualism and institutional decay are now becoming seriously dysfunctional. Society just cannot go on this way with pressure mounting like this. Even if E2K4 is not the trigger, some event will be set it off in the not too distant future. I don't see us lasting this way to 2008.
If you think Bush wins this time, as I and several others do, then 2006 is the transition election. That may be better, because who would guess?

Care to join the 2006 chorus? 8)
I suspect that 2006 will be in the middle of the cascade phase. It will likely be an ugly time.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9105 at 10-12-2004 06:54 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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10-12-2004, 06:54 PM #9105
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Election results and possible consequences

If Bush wins, the country will face actual catastrophe abroad (and maybe at home as well), but I'm not so sure about civil unrest. I don't think the Democrats even have a planned response to an electoral coup d'etat.

If Kerry wins there will be political deadlock (the House is bound to continue as is), and I am more worried about civil unrest. It's the Republicans who believe in the right to bear arms to "discipline" the government. Ironically, it may be a Democrat who has to suspend habeas corpus ("in time of . . .rebellion") to save the Republic.

I spent last weekend in the Mississippi Delta visiting my *Millennial son, who is toiling there for Teach for America. He knows kids all over the Delta doing the same. The schools are nearly as segregated as in 1954--there are almost no white kids in Delta public schools. It occurred to me that this may be behind the conservative Republican attack on public education--why pay for minority kids? We are still fighting the civil war, and this time the North has been losing. . .Indeed, Bush is leading a coalition of the losers in both of the last two Fourth Turnings.

David Kaiser '47







Post#9106 at 10-12-2004 08:28 PM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
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Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Sam I Am
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
My wife told me that today at lunch her coworkers brought up the topic of severe civil unrest in light of another screwed up election. Election fraud and violence were the topic for a good twenty minutes, and discussion got passionate (mixed Xer/Boomer crowd). She didn't even bring up "fourth turnings" or anything as her knowledge of it all is limited. But she's becoming more convinced that S&H are onto something in terms of something big coming up in society.

Another common theme coming up again and again is how things just don't seem to work right anymore. I hear it at my job, my wife hears it, my Dad, my Mom, my friends. Everywhere!

My explanation is the we are at the very, very end of a 3T and individualism and institutional decay are now becoming seriously dysfunctional. Society just cannot go on this way with pressure mounting like this. Even if E2K4 is not the trigger, some event will be set it off in the not too distant future. I don't see us lasting this way to 2008.
If you think Bush wins this time, as I and several others do, then 2006 is the transition election. That may be better, because who would guess?

Care to join the 2006 chorus? 8)
I suspect that 2006 will be in the middle of the cascade phase. It will likely be an ugly time.
I'm falling in line with you guys more and more. I have wondered lately: If it ever got so ugly as to show a serious weakness of our social infrastructure, should I keep a shiny weapon around for doomsday self-protection? The line between the looters and the law, either one panting to pound down my door, is getting thinner and thinner.

--Croak







Post#9107 at 10-12-2004 08:47 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-12-2004, 08:47 PM #9107
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Re: Election results and possible consequences

Culled from the "61-64" thread, for added confirmation...

Quote Originally Posted by David Kaiser '47
Quote Originally Posted by The NAACP
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
That "Cross of gold" speech was comparable to MLK's "I have a dream" speech of 1963 (or maybe even Goldwater's "defense of liberty" speech of 1964). Both played the role of leader of passionate "lost causes" to the hilt.
And I'm supposed to be the "bigot". Nice Marc.
I'm Renee Mullins, James Byrd's daughter. On June 7th, 1998, in Texas, my father was killed. He was beaten, chained and then dragged three miles to his death, all because he was black. So when Governor George W. Bush refused to support hate crimes legislation, it was like my father was killed all over again.
I spent last weekend in the Mississippi Delta visiting my *Millennial son, who is toiling there for Teach for America. He knows kids all over the Delta doing the same. The schools are nearly as segregated as in 1954--there are almost no white kids in Delta public schools. It occurred to me that this may be behind the conservative Republican attack on public education--why pay for minority kids? We are still fighting the civil war, and this time the North has been losing. . .
Hmm, it sure does sound pretty clear what the NAACP, and our highly esteemed liberal author, thinks has become of King's dream, circa 2004.

Me? Bigoted? Nah, just telling it like it (according to liberals) is.

p.s. According to 2000 U.S. Census figures, a massive migration of blacks back to the "Mississippi Delta," from the "North," is currently underway. Are these "minorities" commiting suicide, according to Mr. Kaiser and the NAACP, or what? 8)







Post#9108 at 10-12-2004 10:12 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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10-12-2004, 10:12 PM #9108
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Re: Election results and possible consequences

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Culled from the "61-64" thread, for added confirmation...

Quote Originally Posted by David Kaiser '47
Quote Originally Posted by The NAACP
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
That "Cross of gold" speech was comparable to MLK's "I have a dream" speech of 1963 (or maybe even Goldwater's "defense of liberty" speech of 1964). Both played the role of leader of passionate "lost causes" to the hilt.
And I'm supposed to be the "bigot". Nice Marc.
I'm Renee Mullins, James Byrd's daughter. On June 7th, 1998, in Texas, my father was killed. He was beaten, chained and then dragged three miles to his death, all because he was black. So when Governor George W. Bush refused to support hate crimes legislation, it was like my father was killed all over again.
I spent last weekend in the Mississippi Delta visiting my *Millennial son, who is toiling there for Teach for America. He knows kids all over the Delta doing the same. The schools are nearly as segregated as in 1954--there are almost no white kids in Delta public schools. It occurred to me that this may be behind the conservative Republican attack on public education--why pay for minority kids? We are still fighting the civil war, and this time the North has been losing. . .
Hmm, it sure does sound pretty clear what the NAACP, and our highly esteemed liberal author, thinks has become of King's dream, circa 2004.

Me? Bigoted? Nah, just telling it like it (according to liberals) is.

p.s. According to 2000 U.S. Census figures, a massive migration of blacks back to the "Mississippi Delta," from the "North," is currently underway. Are these "minorities" commiting suicide, according to Mr. Kaiser and the NAACP, or what? 8)
Yes, you are bigoted, and I am not surprised that you don't know why.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9109 at 10-12-2004 11:42 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-12-2004, 11:42 PM #9109
Guest

Re: Election results and possible consequences

Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Culled from the "61-64" thread, for added confirmation...

Quote Originally Posted by David Kaiser '47
Quote Originally Posted by The NAACP
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
That "Cross of gold" speech was comparable to MLK's "I have a dream" speech of 1963 (or maybe even Goldwater's "defense of liberty" speech of 1964). Both played the role of leader of passionate "lost causes" to the hilt.
And I'm supposed to be the "bigot". Nice Marc.
I'm Renee Mullins, James Byrd's daughter. On June 7th, 1998, in Texas, my father was killed. He was beaten, chained and then dragged three miles to his death, all because he was black. So when Governor George W. Bush refused to support hate crimes legislation, it was like my father was killed all over again.
I spent last weekend in the Mississippi Delta visiting my *Millennial son, who is toiling there for Teach for America. He knows kids all over the Delta doing the same. The schools are nearly as segregated as in 1954--there are almost no white kids in Delta public schools. It occurred to me that this may be behind the conservative Republican attack on public education--why pay for minority kids? We are still fighting the civil war, and this time the North has been losing. . .
Hmm, it sure does sound pretty clear what the NAACP, and our highly esteemed liberal author, thinks has become of King's dream, circa 2004.

Me? Bigoted? Nah, just telling it like it (according to liberals) is.

p.s. According to 2000 U.S. Census figures, a massive migration of blacks back to the "Mississippi Delta," from the "North," is currently underway. Are these "minorities" commiting suicide, according to Mr. Kaiser and the NAACP, or what? 8)
Yes, you are bigoted, and I am not surprised that you don't know why.
I doubt whether our lost causes namesake could even attempt a evidentiary prosecution of his charges against the Advocate for the "Devil." Of course not. Such an "Advocate," who engages in despicable and gross abuse of "newbies and nice, sensitive 72 year old women," stands guilty as charged no matter what the evidence.

It's merely, after all, the charge that counts. Not any evidence that might demand a just verdict.







Post#9110 at 10-13-2004 12:55 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Re: Election results and possible consequences

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Culled from the "61-64" thread, for added confirmation...

Quote Originally Posted by David Kaiser '47
Quote Originally Posted by The NAACP
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
That "Cross of gold" speech was comparable to MLK's "I have a dream" speech of 1963 (or maybe even Goldwater's "defense of liberty" speech of 1964). Both played the role of leader of passionate "lost causes" to the hilt.
And I'm supposed to be the "bigot". Nice Marc.
I'm Renee Mullins, James Byrd's daughter. On June 7th, 1998, in Texas, my father was killed. He was beaten, chained and then dragged three miles to his death, all because he was black. So when Governor George W. Bush refused to support hate crimes legislation, it was like my father was killed all over again.
I spent last weekend in the Mississippi Delta visiting my *Millennial son, who is toiling there for Teach for America. He knows kids all over the Delta doing the same. The schools are nearly as segregated as in 1954--there are almost no white kids in Delta public schools. It occurred to me that this may be behind the conservative Republican attack on public education--why pay for minority kids? We are still fighting the civil war, and this time the North has been losing. . .
Hmm, it sure does sound pretty clear what the NAACP, and our highly esteemed liberal author, thinks has become of King's dream, circa 2004.

Me? Bigoted? Nah, just telling it like it (according to liberals) is.

p.s. According to 2000 U.S. Census figures, a massive migration of blacks back to the "Mississippi Delta," from the "North," is currently underway. Are these "minorities" commiting suicide, according to Mr. Kaiser and the NAACP, or what? 8)
Yes, you are bigoted, and I am not surprised that you don't know why.
I doubt whether our lost causes namesake could even attempt a evidentiary prosecution of his charges against the Advocate for the "Devil." Of course not. Such an "Advocate," who engages in despicable and gross abuse of "newbies and nice, sensitive 72 year old women," stands guilty as charged no matter what the evidence.

It's merely, after all, the charge that counts. Not any evidence that might demand a just verdict.
Uh, William Jennings Bryan is my screenname, dude. Come back to reality.

Well, let's ask Barbara if/when she comes back. And as for the (non-Kool Aid drinking) newbies, the rest of us have seen plenty of your hospitality.

It's so funny to see you playing victim. Hey, you see this dot? :arrow: .

Here is a 50X magnification of what I'm playing for you:

Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9111 at 10-13-2004 01:28 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-13-2004, 01:28 AM #9111
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Re: Election results and possible consequences

Quote Originally Posted by My stalker
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Hmm, it sure does sound pretty clear what the NAACP, and our highly esteemed liberal author, thinks has become of King's dream, circa 2004.

Me? Bigoted? Nah, just telling it like it (according to liberals) is.

p.s. According to 2000 U.S. Census figures, a massive migration of blacks back to the "Mississippi Delta," from the "North," is currently underway. Are these "minorities" commiting suicide, according to Mr. Kaiser and the NAACP, or what? 8)
It's so funny to see you playing victim. Hey, you see this dot? :arrow:
I doubt whether my stalker, masquerading as our lost causes namesake, could even attempt a evidentiary prosecution of his charges against the Advocate for the "Devil." Of course not. Such an "Advocate," who engages in despicable and gross abuse of "newbies and nice, sensitive 72 year old women," stands guilty as charged no matter what the evidence.

It's merely, after all, the charge that counts. Not any evidence that might demand a just verdict.







Post#9112 at 10-13-2004 02:21 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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10-13-2004, 02:21 AM #9112
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Re: Election results and possible consequences

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by My stalker
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Hmm, it sure does sound pretty clear what the NAACP, and our highly esteemed liberal author, thinks has become of King's dream, circa 2004.

Me? Bigoted? Nah, just telling it like it (according to liberals) is.

p.s. According to 2000 U.S. Census figures, a massive migration of blacks back to the "Mississippi Delta," from the "North," is currently underway. Are these "minorities" commiting suicide, according to Mr. Kaiser and the NAACP, or what? 8)
It's so funny to see you playing victim. Hey, you see this dot? :arrow:
I doubt whether my stalker, masquerading as our lost causes namesake, could even attempt a evidentiary prosecution of his charges against the Advocate for the "Devil." Of course not. Such an "Advocate," who engages in despicable and gross abuse of "newbies and nice, sensitive 72 year old women," stands guilty as charged no matter what the evidence.

It's merely, after all, the charge that counts. Not any evidence that might demand a just verdict.
Poor Marc. :cry:
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9113 at 10-13-2004 09:58 AM by DKG 1962 [at Southern United States joined Mar 2003 #posts 94]
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Hello, Just want to throw in my thoughts about moving towards the crisis.

I think all these new voter registrations are a sign we are moving closer to 4T or may be that we are in the very early stages. I have heard countless references over the last few years comparing the low voter turn-outs of our eras to the 1920's and 1850's. (Ex: Year 2000 presidential race was the lowest turnout since 1924).

Some people believe all these new registrations are because of the Democrats efforts to get out the vote. But in our state (Louisiana), 44k registered as Independents, 41K as Republicans, and 21k as Democrats. If those figures are correct, I would think these increases in voter registrations are signaling growing concern for the future.

Also, there are stories now daily on the excesses of the media. While there is not outright censoring of the media, it seems we are moving in that direction. Isn't that one of S&H 10 indicators of crisis?







Post#9114 at 10-13-2004 10:57 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-13-2004, 10:57 AM #9114
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Re: Ms. Barb

This is too good to pass up...

Quote Originally Posted by The Associated Press
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
I doubt whether our lost causes namesake could even attempt a evidentiary prosecution of his charges against the Advocate for the "Devil." Of course not. Such an "Advocate," who engages in despicable and gross abuse of "newbies and nice, sensitive 72 year old women," stands guilty as charged no matter what the evidence.

It's merely, after all, the charge that counts. Not any evidence that might demand a just verdict.
Well, let's ask Barbara if/when she comes back.
"These are the debates where actually the evidence matters. The president and his team can go around and say anything," Kerry adviser Joe Lockhart told "The Early Show" on CBS. "Evidence matters. That's why John Kerry wins these debates and George Bush loses them."
The Barbara-left-because-of-mean-old-Marc was a rumor spread by her froggy cohort, Mr. E. I never bothered to address it -- I personally considered the rumor an insult to Barbara -- but Ms. B. did.

Let's take the Lockhart test: I wonder what kind of "Evidence matters" to our three-time loser? Can he present some "evidence" to back up his charge that I chased Ms. B. away from these threads?







Post#9115 at 10-13-2004 11:28 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Re: Ms. Barb

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
This is too good to pass up...

Quote Originally Posted by The Associated Press
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
I doubt whether our lost causes namesake could even attempt a evidentiary prosecution of his charges against the Advocate for the "Devil." Of course not. Such an "Advocate," who engages in despicable and gross abuse of "newbies and nice, sensitive 72 year old women," stands guilty as charged no matter what the evidence.

It's merely, after all, the charge that counts. Not any evidence that might demand a just verdict.
Well, let's ask Barbara if/when she comes back.
"These are the debates where actually the evidence matters. The president and his team can go around and say anything," Kerry adviser Joe Lockhart told "The Early Show" on CBS. "Evidence matters. That's why John Kerry wins these debates and George Bush loses them."
The Barbara-left-because-of-mean-old-Marc was a rumor spread by her froggy cohort, Mr. E. I never bothered to address it -- I personally considered the rumor an insult to Barbara -- but Ms. B. did.

Let's take the Lockhart test: I wonder what kind of "Evidence matters" to our three-time loser? Can he present some "evidence" to back up his charge that I chased Ms. B. away from these threads?
I have no idea what Mr. E's view is on the matter, but I know I received PM's from Barbara discussing how intimidated she was by you. Others probably did too. Is that why she left? I don't know. I never said it was. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if it played a role.

Regardless, it is ironic that you get all righteous quoting the Bible and all, like in some post today about the "law" (ooooh, aren't you a studious, God-fearing good boy!) and yet be so utterly lacking in understanding of Christ's basic message.

Now, since I don't pretend to be an enlightened Christian, I'm free to show you how mean you actually are. But like Hebrew National hot dogs, you, by your own admission, must "answer to a higher authority".

Uh, I got news for you . . . you're not answering.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9116 at 10-13-2004 11:58 AM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
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Re: Ms. Barb

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
...The Barbara-left-because-of-mean-old-Marc was a rumor spread by her froggy cohort, Mr. E. I never bothered to address it -- I personally considered the rumor an insult to Barbara -- but Ms. B. did...
I never accused Marc of driving off Barbara. She was far beyond such silly lambfries, dangling in the archetypal T4T Republican breeze and smelling like they had been hanging there for a while. Personally, I like to read the ol' Devil; he's a study on why people trade in their brains (their God-given brains) for something ridiculously different.

Barbara left, I believe, for sadder reasons -- her son became seriously ill and she had to take care of him. Hers was a departure due to raw priorities, and Marc had nothing to do with it. I'm still missing her, and I'm concerned that her life may have turned stressful for her. But we still have Kiff and Jenny and a few other women with such class.

--Croak







Post#9117 at 10-13-2004 12:31 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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10-13-2004, 12:31 PM #9117
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Re: Ms. Barb

Quote Originally Posted by Croakmore
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
...The Barbara-left-because-of-mean-old-Marc was a rumor spread by her froggy cohort, Mr. E. I never bothered to address it -- I personally considered the rumor an insult to Barbara -- but Ms. B. did...
I never accused Marc of driving off Barbara. She was far beyond such silly lambfries... --Croak
Your keen memory fails you...
  • "You?re awfully hateful for a Christian, Lambster. You?re the Trafficant of T4T. No wonder Barbara won?t have anything to do with you (or us) anymore. But I don?t mind a bug or two now and then. Sheep ticks are fine. Tasty with a cob of corn." --Croaker'39
Ms. Barb might have become infuriated with me, frustrated with me, even incensed at me...

But Ms. Barb would never have been intimidated by me.







Post#9118 at 10-13-2004 12:55 PM by Mustang [at Confederate States of America joined May 2003 #posts 2,303]
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10-13-2004, 12:55 PM #9118
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Re: Ms. Barb

Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
This is too good to pass up...

Quote Originally Posted by The Associated Press
Quote Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
I doubt whether our lost causes namesake could even attempt a evidentiary prosecution of his charges against the Advocate for the "Devil." Of course not. Such an "Advocate," who engages in despicable and gross abuse of "newbies and nice, sensitive 72 year old women," stands guilty as charged no matter what the evidence.

It's merely, after all, the charge that counts. Not any evidence that might demand a just verdict.
Well, let's ask Barbara if/when she comes back.
"These are the debates where actually the evidence matters. The president and his team can go around and say anything," Kerry adviser Joe Lockhart told "The Early Show" on CBS. "Evidence matters. That's why John Kerry wins these debates and George Bush loses them."
The Barbara-left-because-of-mean-old-Marc was a rumor spread by her froggy cohort, Mr. E. I never bothered to address it -- I personally considered the rumor an insult to Barbara -- but Ms. B. did.

Let's take the Lockhart test: I wonder what kind of "Evidence matters" to our three-time loser? Can he present some "evidence" to back up his charge that I chased Ms. B. away from these threads?
I have no idea what Mr. E's view is on the matter, but I know I received PM's from Barbara discussing how intimidated she was by you. Others probably did too. Is that why she left? I don't know. I never said it was. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if it played a role.
Going back in time.... Barbara was here for a while and then she abruptly left. After a long spell, perhaps in excess of a year, she returned. She stayed a few months and then she left again. It has been perhaps a year since her last departure and, as far as I know, she has never returned.

When she returned, perhaps 18 months ago, she explained to me privately why she had left. By her own account, it was specifically because of Satan's Little Helper here. His consistently abusive tone and demeanor (the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow) drove her off. That really should be no surprise to anyone here.

You claim to have been in communication with her since her last departure (I haven't). Further, you claim that she left the last time because of Satan's Little Helper here. Seeing as she left the first time because of Satan's Little Helper's continual abuse, it is perfectly reasonable that she left the last time for the very same reason. Certainly Satan's Little Helper is no less abusive today than he has ever been.

Regardless, it is ironic that you get all righteous quoting the Bible and all, like in some post today about the "law" (ooooh, aren't you a studious, God-fearing good boy!) and yet be so utterly lacking in understanding of Christ's basic message.

Now, since I don't pretend to be an enlightened Christian, I'm free to show you how mean you actually are. But like Hebrew National hot dogs, you, by your own admission, must "answer to a higher authority".

Uh, I got news for you . . . you're not answering.
You cannot get through to him (no one can) so there is no point in trying.
"What went unforeseen, however, was that the elephant would at some point in the last years of the 20th century be possessed, in both body and spirit, by a coincident fusion of mutant ex-Liberals and holy-rolling Theocrats masquerading as conservatives in the tradition of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan: Death by transmogrification, beginning with The Invasion of the Party Snatchers."

-- Victor Gold, Aide to Barry Goldwater







Post#9119 at 10-13-2004 01:01 PM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
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10-13-2004, 01:01 PM #9119
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Re: Ms. Barb

Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by Croakmore
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
...The Barbara-left-because-of-mean-old-Marc was a rumor spread by her froggy cohort, Mr. E. I never bothered to address it -- I personally considered the rumor an insult to Barbara -- but Ms. B. did...
I never accused Marc of driving off Barbara. She was far beyond such silly lambfries... --Croak
Your keen memory fails you...
  • "You?re awfully hateful for a Christian, Lambster. You?re the Trafficant of T4T. No wonder Barbara won?t have anything to do with you (or us) anymore. But I don?t mind a bug or two now and then. Sheep ticks are fine. Tasty with a cob of corn." --Croaker'39
Ms. Barb might have become infuriated with me, frustrated with me, even incensed at me...

But Ms. Barb would never have been intimidated by me.
Marc, on this rare and historic event, significant perhaps only to paleontologists, I must agree with you on all points.

--Croak







Post#9120 at 10-13-2004 08:43 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Right wing flamers

For a prime specimen, see the extraordinary story about Bill O'Reilly on the Drudge Report.

Meanwhile, why do we have to waste so much space/time on our local example?

David K '47







Post#9121 at 10-13-2004 08:53 PM by Andy '85 [at Texas joined Aug 2003 #posts 1,465]
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Blast at car dealer hurts 9

Note what happened very soon after the explosion . . .







Post#9122 at 10-14-2004 02:03 AM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
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Re: Ms. Barb

Quote Originally Posted by Croakmore
on this rare and historic event, significant perhaps only to paleontologists, I must agree with you on all points.
T4T's resident paleontologist says hi! 8)
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#9123 at 10-14-2004 03:16 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Re: Ms. Barb

Quote Originally Posted by Seadog '66
Going back in time.... Barbara was here for a while and then she abruptly left. After a long spell, perhaps in excess of a year, she returned. She stayed a few months and then she left again. It has been perhaps a year since her last departure and, as far as I know, she has never returned.

When she returned, perhaps 18 months ago, she explained to me privately why she had left. By her own account, it was specifically because of Satan's Little Helper here. His consistently abusive tone and demeanor (the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow) drove her off. That really should be no surprise to anyone here.

You claim to have been in communication with her since her last departure (I haven't). Further, you claim that she left the last time because of Satan's Little Helper here. Seeing as she left the first time because of Satan's Little Helper's continual abuse, it is perfectly reasonable that she left the last time for the very same reason. Certainly Satan's Little Helper is no less abusive today than he has ever been.
I was not in communication with her recently. It was some time back. I don't recall if it was during her first or second round here. All I know is that we were PMing for various reason and she mentioned twice (or so) how intimidated she was by Marc's aggressiveness.

Whether she left because of him at one point or another isn't even what I'm driving at (though it does seem that way from what you've said just now). It's that he is mean and brutal enough to be that way toward a nice lady like that. Then he spouts off Christian stuff. What a complete and utter creep!

Quote Originally Posted by Seadog '66
You cannot get through to him (no one can) so there is no point in trying.
I don't know if I'm really trying for him, or for something else. But Vince's advice about "not feeding the troll" (I won't even try the Shatner impression :wink: ) is beginning to make more sense. But I have such a hard time just letting him get away with his crap!
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9124 at 10-14-2004 03:21 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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10-14-2004, 03:21 AM #9124
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Re: Ms. Barb

Quote Originally Posted by Croakmore
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Quote Originally Posted by Croakmore
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
...The Barbara-left-because-of-mean-old-Marc was a rumor spread by her froggy cohort, Mr. E. I never bothered to address it -- I personally considered the rumor an insult to Barbara -- but Ms. B. did...
I never accused Marc of driving off Barbara. She was far beyond such silly lambfries... --Croak
Your keen memory fails you...
  • "You?re awfully hateful for a Christian, Lambster. You?re the Trafficant of T4T. No wonder Barbara won?t have anything to do with you (or us) anymore. But I don?t mind a bug or two now and then. Sheep ticks are fine. Tasty with a cob of corn." --Croaker'39
Ms. Barb might have become infuriated with me, frustrated with me, even incensed at me...

But Ms. Barb would never have been intimidated by me.
Marc, on this rare and historic event, significant perhaps only to paleontologists, I must agree with you on all points.

--Croak
To further the rarity and historical nature of this affair, I must strongly disagree with you Mr. E. She was intimidated. Why would she mention it to me if it were not so?
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#9125 at 10-14-2004 01:54 PM by Joseph Gradecki [at joined Sep 2004 #posts 211]
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Concerning "Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning"...

Has this come up yet?

The Kerry/Edwards campaign and the Democratic National Committee are advising election operatives to declare voter intimidation -- even if none exists...

A 66-page mobilization plan to be issued by the Kerry/Edwards campaign and the Democratic National Committee states: "If no signs of intimidation techniques have emerged yet, launch a 'pre-emptive strike.'"


I apologize if it has already, but nothing says 4T to me like evidence that one of the major political parties would rather turn our country into a banana republic then gracefully admit that they lost. Talk about your Boomer behavior!

So, no matter what happens, we're in for a replay of Florida writ large? I'm thinking of buying a gun. Thanks, DNC!
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