Originally Posted by Seadog '66

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

p.s. Welcome back, Ms. Barb. We missed ya! 8)

Enough "evidence" supplied for you, Trog? :evil:

What? That I mistakenly thought it silly that I could actually "intimidate" Ms. Barb, with mere words? Or the original assertion that liberals really do believe MLK's "dream" turned out worse than any of WJB's "lost causes"?

You called me a bigot for suggesting the latter was true, while Croaker cheered me for believing the former was insult Ms. Barb's character. Does he get the :evil: treatment, too?

Stick with your righteous crusade of stalking the Devil's Advocate at every turn, dude. We've only a few weeks left till I'm outta here anyway, as promised. Then T4T will belong soley to those who think just like you do. 8)

Not just a river in Egypt!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I actually thought that this was the more important and more telling of the two indicators which I mentioned earlier. I just listed them as I did because that was how they were presented.

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

As evidence that we are, if not already in the Cascade Phase of the 4T, then very close to the Catalyst, I offer two items, both from the front page of the 'Life' segment (Section D) of last Thursday's 'USA Today'.

(snip)

2) According to an article on how to keep political differences within a marital or other romantic relationship (of the 'I'm for Bush, but she likes Kerry' sort) from posing an increased threat to said relationships of a level not seen in a long time, two things are mentioned aside from the main topic. One is the increasing tendency among singles to date only people of similar political views. The other item is an exposition of *why* our political differences have become so bitter as to raise the specter of possible civil war, not to mention threatening previously stable relationships - since 9/11, most people in America have become at least somewhat anxious and afraid, and have to that extent switched into survival mode. This has become a polarizing condition because each side (conservative and liberal) sincerely believes that if the other gets in this time, we're doomed as a society. Thus, someone who supports 'the other side', even if we sleep with said person every night, almost inevitably becomes seen as a potentially dire threat to our survival. Would anyone out there, on either side, care to imagine the stress that can put on a marriage or romance?

I mention this in light of an article I found elsewhere in this forum concerning the way Americans are voluntarily self-segregating along political lines, and what that trend could ultimately lead to. Comments?

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

I actually thought that this was the more important and more telling of the two indicators which I mentioned earlier. I just listed them as I did because that was how they were presented.

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

As evidence that we are, if not already in the Cascade Phase of the 4T, then very close to the Catalyst, I offer two items, both from the front page of the 'Life' segment (Section D) of last Thursday's 'USA Today'.

(snip)

2) According to an article on how to keep political differences within a marital or other romantic relationship (of the 'I'm for Bush, but she likes Kerry' sort) from posing an increased threat to said relationships of a level not seen in a long time, two things are mentioned aside from the main topic. One is the increasing tendency among singles to date only people of similar political views. The other item is an exposition of *why* our political differences have become so bitter as to raise the specter of possible civil war, not to mention threatening previously stable relationships - since 9/11, most people in America have become at least somewhat anxious and afraid, and have to that extent switched into survival mode. This has become a polarizing condition because each side (conservative and liberal) sincerely believes that if the other gets in this time, we're doomed as a society. Thus, someone who supports 'the other side', even if we sleep with said person every night, almost inevitably becomes seen as a potentially dire threat to our survival. Would anyone out there, on either side, care to imagine the stress that can put on a marriage or romance?

I mention this in light of an article I found elsewhere in this forum concerning the way Americans are voluntarily self-segregating along political lines, and what that trend could ultimately lead to. Comments?

I can see Northern Virginia breaking off and forming its own separate state during this 4T, like WV did during the Civil War Crisis. Despite the preponderance of Dixie-era street names like Jeff Davis Blvd and Leesburg Pike, NoVa really is very blue, unlike the rest of the state. Considering the influx into the DC area of folks from everywhere else in the country (many from the Northeast and West Coast, from the license plates I see), it's only a matter of time before someone at least floats the idea of ditching Red Virginia. (Hmmm....what would the postal code for the new state be? "NV" is already taken!)

Likewise, I can see Eastern Washington and Eastern Oregon (that's east of the Cascade Mountains for those not in the know) breaking off and either forming their own state or joining Idaho. They really do loath "heathen liberals" from Seattle and Portland over there and quite frankly the feeling is fairly mutual.

Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

p.s. Welcome back, Ms. Barb. We missed ya! 8)

Enough "evidence" supplied for you, Trog? :evil:

What? That I mistakenly thought it silly that I could actually "intimidate" Ms. Barb, with mere words? Or the original assertion that liberals really do believe MLK's "dream" turned out worse than any of WJB's "lost causes"?

You called me a bigot for suggesting the latter was true, while Croaker cheered me for believing the former was insult Ms. Barb's character. Does he get the :evil: treatment, too?

Stick with your righteous crusade of stalking the Devil's Advocate at every turn, dude. We've only a few weeks left till I'm outta here anyway, as promised. Then T4T will belong soley to those who think just like you do. 8)

1. You did intimidate Barbara. Ask her.

2. You are a bigot because you believe black equality is a lost cause. William Jennings Bryan (the historical figure) has no bearing on that.

3. Croaker expressed disbelief, but he did not attack me and was completely civil about it. We've PM'ed each other about the issue and I'm sure Barbara will (and already has) set the record straight.

4. I'm not stalking you. You're not that important. I am mirroring your bile for therapeutic purposes, among other things.

5. I doubt you'll leave.

I sincerely doubt if the likes of Marc could intimidate Barbara, who survived much worse than he during the Great Depression and World War II Crisis. I'm more inclined to believe that she became disgusted with Marc's (and others') bullshit, and as a result came to feel that posting to this site was beneath her dignity.

Don't know if Marc's really a bigot or not...my guess is that he simply enjoys throwing bombs, and watching how people react when they explode. That said, he apparently doesn't get it... that it isn't that MLK's dream is a lost cause, but rather that during the Awakening a large percentage of blacks simply stopped believing in it and chose instead to follow a philosophy of self-segregation....which was NOT a good plan for them at all. If the current Crisis and coming High don't fix that situation, the next Awakening surely will, as those who refuse to mix with the rest of America become permanently marginalized and eventually disappear.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Likewise, I can see Eastern Washington and Eastern Oregon (that's east of the Cascade Mountains for those not in the know) breaking off and either forming their own state or joining Idaho. They really do loath "heathen liberals" from Seattle and Portland over there and quite frankly the feeling is fairly mutual.

As a matter of fact, I remember reading once, a long time ago, that roughly a century ago that very idea was floated, of forming a separate state from Eastern Oregon and Eastern Washington. The proposed name of the new state was to be Lincoln. The idea went nowhere. of course - such things apparently only happen during 4Ts, as Virginians and West Virginians can attest. The period the idea was floated in was a late 2T. Who knows, though? Lincoln just might become our next state (either 51st or 49th, depending on what happens with Alaska and Hawaii during this 4T).

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

p.s. Welcome back, Ms. Barb. We missed ya! 8)

Enough "evidence" supplied for you, Trog? :evil:

What? That I mistakenly thought it silly that I could actually "intimidate" Ms. Barb, with mere words? Or the original assertion that liberals really do believe MLK's "dream" turned out worse than any of WJB's "lost causes"?

You called me a bigot for suggesting the latter was true, while Croaker cheered me for believing the former was insult Ms. Barb's character. Does he get the :evil: treatment, too?

Stick with your righteous crusade of stalking the Devil's Advocate at every turn, dude. We've only a few weeks left till I'm outta here anyway, as promised. Then T4T will belong soley to those who think just like you do. 8)

1. You did intimidate Barbara. Ask her.

2. You are a bigot because you believe black equality is a lost cause. William Jennings Bryan (the historical figure) has no bearing on that.

3. Croaker expressed disbelief, but he did not attack me and was completely civil about it. We've PM'ed each other about the issue and I'm sure Barbara will (and already has) set the record straight.

4. I'm not stalking you. You're not that important. I am mirroring your bile for therapeutic purposes, among other things.

5. I doubt you'll leave.

I sincerely doubt if the likes of Marc could intimidate Barbara, who survived much worse than he during the Great Depression and World War II Crisis. I'm more inclined to believe that she became disgusted with Marc's (and others') bullshit, and as a result came to feel that posting to this site was beneath her dignity.

Apparently you missed Barbara's recent posting on this thread to confirm WJB's points (she has again returned). Here it is again for your benefit:

Originally Posted by Barbara

For everyone's information, all of the above about moi is correct in reference to my feelings about Marc Lamb. I am back until after Election Day, for sure, as we are working the election. I will start out trying not to let Marc get to me, and take Croaker, Seadog, and David Kaiser's excellent advice. Marc will surely infuriate me, frustrate me and I will fight against letting him intimidate me, but it will eventually happen. This time, I'm just going to enjoy my time here until then!

It's got nothing to do with her dignity. He's an abusive creep (which anybody here can ascertain on any given day...no need to belittle it) and, by her own testimony, he has twice run her off. Perhaps this time he will finally "get it" and earnestly seek to overcome this little problem he has.

All right, back to the business of 4T evidence. Maybe Barbara can help us out with this one. "Freak dancing"! It's all the rage in high schools in and around Seattle.

Hans Zeiger, local writer, provides this report of it:

The contemporary lexicon of dirty dancing includes such terms as freaking, slamming, moshing, spanking, humping, bumping, undressing, grinding, and so on. Dancing fascinates cultural anthropologists because it seems that dancing is an almost universal expression of love without actually lovemaking. But for American high school and college students in 2004, dancing has become nothing short of group sex...

Of course this is appalling to Silents, who did nothing worse than the Bunny Hug. Good ol' rock 'n' roll never went this far either, unless it was "out of school," so to speak. But freak dancing is now being done in the schools -- sock hops, homecoming dances, parking lot trots and all.

Now, why doesn't this count as profound evidence of something amounting to a 4T free-for-all?

But wait, my froggie side says this sort of thing is not entirely unnatural. What goes on after dark in other wild places of the world has precedence, like this boogie in the jungle:



Tarzan, eat your heart out!

--Croakmore

Originally Posted by Croakmore

Ah, a mixed marriage.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

I can see Northern Virginia breaking off and forming its own separate state during this 4T, like WV did during the Civil War Crisis. Despite the preponderance of Dixie-era street names like Jeff Davis Blvd and Leesburg Pike, NoVa really is very blue, unlike the rest of the state. Considering the influx into the DC area of folks from everywhere else in the country (many from the Northeast and West Coast, from the license plates I see), it's only a matter of time before someone at least floats the idea of ditching Red Virginia. (Hmmm....what would the postal code for the new state be? "NV" is already taken!)

Honey, you don't quite "get" Northern Virginia. Where I live is very blue, although the strong military presence adds a definite large red stripe. However, outside the Beltway, it gets more and more red. Add to the military types all of the contractors and subcontractors, many of whom are cut-taxes types. As evidence, of the three Northern Virginia congressional representatives, two are moderate Republicans. Tom Davis, who represents most of Fairfax and much of Prince William Counties is Republican, as is Frank Wolf, who represents part of Fairfax and most of Loudoun counties. Only Moran, who represents Arlington County and the cities of Falls Church and Alexandria, is a liberal Democrat.

No, if anything would cause Northern Virginia to secede from the rest of the Commonwealth, it is traffic. Northern Virginia only gets about 75 cents for every dollar it pays in gas taxes; although it has the most horrible traffic, it subsidizes road construction throughout the rest of the Commonwealth. :twisted:

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

Originally Posted by Barbara

For everyone's information, all of the above about moi is correct in reference to my feelings about Marc Lamb. I am back until after Election Day, for sure, as we are working the election. I will start out trying not to let Marc get to me, and take Croaker, Seadog, and David Kaiser's excellent advice. Marc will surely infuriate me, frustrate me and I will fight against letting him intimidate me, but it will eventually happen. This time, I'm just going to enjoy my time here until then!

It's got nothing to do with her dignity. He's an abusive creep (which anybody here can ascertain on any given day...no need to belittle it) and, by her own testimony, he has twice run her off. Perhaps this time he will finally "get it" and earnestly seek to overcome this little problem he has.

I still say that she's survived far, far worse. She'll be fine :-)

Originally Posted by Hermione Granger

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

I can see Northern Virginia breaking off and forming its own separate state during this 4T, like WV did during the Civil War Crisis. Despite the preponderance of Dixie-era street names like Jeff Davis Blvd and Leesburg Pike, NoVa really is very blue, unlike the rest of the state. Considering the influx into the DC area of folks from everywhere else in the country (many from the Northeast and West Coast, from the license plates I see), it's only a matter of time before someone at least floats the idea of ditching Red Virginia. (Hmmm....what would the postal code for the new state be? "NV" is already taken!)

Honey, you don't quite "get" Northern Virginia. Where I live is very blue, although the strong military presence adds a definite large red stripe. However, outside the Beltway, it gets more and more red. Add to the military types all of the contractors and subcontractors, many of whom are cut-taxes types. As evidence, of the three Northern Virginia congressional representatives, two are moderate Republicans. Tom Davis, who represents most of Fairfax and much of Prince William Counties is Republican, as is Wolf , who represents part of Fairfax and most of Loudoun counties. Only Moran, who represents Arlington County and the cities of Falls Church and Alexandria, is a liberal Democrat.

Hmmm.....and you want me to move there??? :shock: Still...that situation is likely to change once all those liberal Arlington Millies move out of the roost and set up families of their own. Even if the GD halves the current home values in Arlington, they'll still have to move out to those less-developed red areas in order to build/buy homes during the High...or else leave the DC area completely.

No, if anything would cause Northern Virginia to secede from the rest of the Commonwealth, it is traffic. Northern Virginia only gets about 75 cents for every dollar it pays in gas taxes; although it has the most horrible traffic, it subsidizes road construction throughout the rest of the Commonwealth. :twisted:

Well, that could be a good thing. Imagine U.S. 50 as a double-decked freeway! Ain't roadbuilding cool!!!

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Likewise, I can see Eastern Washington and Eastern Oregon (that's east of the Cascade Mountains for those not in the know) breaking off and either forming their own state or joining Idaho. They really do loath "heathen liberals" from Seattle and Portland over there and quite frankly the feeling is fairly mutual.

While people there have talked about this for a long time, I can't see Congress being willing to add two more senators to join the ones from Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, and to a lesser extent Colorado and New Mexico as a grossly-overrepresented mountain state bloc.

Originally Posted by Hamish MacPherson

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Likewise, I can see Eastern Washington and Eastern Oregon (that's east of the Cascade Mountains for those not in the know) breaking off and either forming their own state or joining Idaho. They really do loath "heathen liberals" from Seattle and Portland over there and quite frankly the feeling is fairly mutual.

While people there have talked about this for a long time, I can't see Congress being willing to add two more senators to join the ones from Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, and to a lesser extent Colorado and New Mexico as a grossly-overrepresented mountain state bloc.

Greater Idaho it is then!

What does November truly bring?
By W. John Tritt, Opinions Editor, The Keystone

America is many things to many different people. Change has been a constant in this country since its inception in the 1700s. Major changes, such as how we interpret our Constitution and changes with less impact, such as the country?s most popular baseball team (well, take that back. The Yankees will forever be a constant) I hope the St. Louis Cards put a rest to this Yankee nonsense. Not only do I want the Cards to win, I want the Yankees to be annihilated. I want to see them go home humiliated at the hands of the Cards. define who we are as a people. However, throughout the last 200 and some years, there?s been common ground found between Americans who see things differently. It is the fact that we are by law, allowed to believe whatever we happen to believe, without fear of retribution or punishment from the government.

However, we are rapidly slipping further into uncertain times. We have had times where the country has experienced such disagreement about certain issue that it caused a rift in the nation. Sometimes the rift is so great, it led to violence. The American Civil War was the greatest example of such violence. The rioting in the1960s was another example. What will unfold in the next several years will define these times in the American experience for future generations to look back upon as one of those rifts. To think that presidential elections in November will somehow vindicate one side or another and that it will quell the political unrest that is pushing forward like an out-of-control freight train, is ridiculous.

After November, who ever may win the election will face his toughest challenge in office right here at home in the U.S. The biggest domestic issue at hand isn?t going to be fixing the deficit or increasing the availability of jobs. It won?t even be medical coverage. They are going to have to somehow appeal to those who voted against them. This election isn?t going to bring any kind of closure. Instead it very well may be the tipping point for the current unrest, launching the American public into a time of turmoil that we have seen in the past and care not to repeat. Both sides of the spectrum are operating under the hopes that their canidate will win. Even under that condition, the campaign is still very negative. It?s hard to imagine what one side or another will be driven to after it is all said and done.

Originally Posted by TrollKing

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

What does November truly bring?
By W. John Tritt, Opinions Editor, The Keystone

America is many things to many different people. Change has been a constant in this country since its inception in the 1700s. Major changes, such as how we interpret our Constitution and changes with less impact, such as the country?s most popular baseball team (well, take that back. The Yankees will forever be a constant) I hope the St. Louis Cards put a rest to this Yankee nonsense. Not only do I want the Cards to win, I want the Yankees to be annihilated. I want to see them go home humiliated at the hands of the Cards. define who we are as a people.

you're fucking welcome. TK

p.s. I'm the Devil's Advocate and I approve this message. 8)

p.p.s. The blackened insert of Mr. Reed's personal NBL opinion notwithstanding, of course. By all means, let's let the new "Civil War" bloodletting begin. The sooner... the frickin' better!

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

It's got nothing to do with her dignity.

Awwww, Dawg? I LIKED what Kevin said about my dignity. Please let it be just a LITTLE bit about that...... :wink:

He's an abusive creep (which anybody here can ascertain on any given day...no need to belittle it) and, by her own testimony, he has twice run her off. Perhaps this time he will finally "get it" and earnestly seek to overcome this little problem he has.

I wouldn't change a thing about THAT post. 8) Although, I'd just prefer he go away and make good on this latest promise...... Mr. Bryan, keep on postin', Hon......sounds good to me!

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

I still say that she's survived far, far worse.

True, Kevin. But I am at the point now where I'd like to avoid what bad things I can.... :wink:

Originally Posted by William Jennings Bryan

Greater Idaho it is then!

OK, as long as it takes a bite out of Montana, and the rest of Montana gets combined with Wyoming. (Or something like that.)

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

What does November truly bring?
By W. John Tritt, Opinions Editor, The Keystone

America is many things to many different people. Change has been a constant in this country since its inception in the 1700s. Major changes, such as how we interpret our Constitution and changes with less impact, such as the country?s most popular baseball team (well, take that back. The Yankees will forever be a constant) I hope the St. Louis Cards put a rest to this Yankee nonsense. Not only do I want the Cards to win, I want the Yankees to be annihilated. I want to see them go home humiliated at the hands of the Cards. define who we are as a people. However, throughout the last 200 and some years, there?s been common ground found between Americans who see things differently. It is the fact that we are by law, allowed to believe whatever we happen to believe, without fear of retribution or punishment from the government.

However, we are rapidly slipping further into uncertain times. We have had times where the country has experienced such disagreement about certain issue that it caused a rift in the nation. Sometimes the rift is so great, it led to violence. The American Civil War was the greatest example of such violence. The rioting in the1960s was another example. What will unfold in the next several years will define these times in the American experience for future generations to look back upon as one of those rifts. To think that presidential elections in November will somehow vindicate one side or another and that it will quell the political unrest that is pushing forward like an out-of-control freight train, is ridiculous.

After November, who ever may win the election will face his toughest challenge in office right here at home in the U.S. The biggest domestic issue at hand isn?t going to be fixing the deficit or increasing the availability of jobs. It won?t even be medical coverage. They are going to have to somehow appeal to those who voted against them. This election isn?t going to bring any kind of closure. Instead it very well may be the tipping point for the current unrest, launching the American public into a time of turmoil that we have seen in the past and care not to repeat. Both sides of the spectrum are operating under the hopes that their candidate will win. Even under that condition, the campaign is still very negative. It?s hard to imagine what one side or another will be driven to after it is all said and done.

On the'Boomer Civil War' thread, you'll find this exchange between Shemsu Heru and myself:

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

Most people really do not have an open mind. But will this stem the tide of conflict, or will it only fan the flames? I think that it is having a closed mind which would more likely lead to violence because people will think that they have to fight to retain their closed mind status.

One could argue that the build up to a war had been happening during the 1990s. Even though the spiral of violence declined in the late 1990s (probably because of the red hot economy), I don't think it has gone away. I think it may be there, just seething below the surface. We may be sitting right on Mount St. Helens, with steam rising from the ground, frequent earthquakes, and even a few lava flows, just waiting for an eruption. Recall the atmosphere of the 1930s. Recall the general aversion to going to war, which lasted up until 1940. Recall how determined Americans were to NOT get caught up in Europe's mess. But it took one event to turn this around 180 degrees. On December 6th, 1941, most Americans were still strongly against war, even though since 1939, they were slowly, (and almost imperceptively) drifting in that direction. But on December 8th, 1941, from sea to shining sea, Americans thirsted for war. They demanded war. I don't think that the line between war and peace is thick, especially during Crisis Eras.

There was definitely a spiral of violence during the 1990s. There were many incidents of domestic terrorism, one of the most famous being the Oklahoma City bombing of 1995. Since the beginning of this 3T, and stretching only into the mid 1990s, there were several hundred attempts by radical right wing groups to overthrow the government of the US (according to some movie I saw during that time). We may think that the era of militias is over, but many of them just went underground. In fact, many people would say that the militia movement may be coming back. The Michigan Militia is reporting a resurgence. The number of school and workplace violence demonstrates that anger is seething just below the surface.

Before the Boston Tea Party, those who revolted against the crown were deemed lunatics. These were acts of treason. During the 1990s, extreme acts of violence were, of course, condemned. People didn't feel that there were any real threats to their livelihood. Today, people feel much more of a threat. When people feel that their livelihood is threatened, it doesn't take much for people to turn to violence to save it.

I, too, look forward to using the political process. But the rage that contributes to violence is definitely there, waiting to be awakened. [/code]

VERY GOOD POINTS!!!!!!!!!! For other points to consider about evidence that the rage that contributes to violence being present in large quantities, just below the surface, think about the overall tone of this election, and also the bitter tone all too many people in this forum use with each other. I likewise suspect (and have for a long time) that revulsion to the Oklahoma City bombing may have suspended any further development of the 90s era spiral of violence, but left it in place, with only a spark (like this election, perhaps) needed to restart it - with no hope of either stopping it or of suspending it again this time, as the above mentioned revulsion was very likely due as much to the Oklahoma City bombing occurring several years prematurely as it was to the obvious moral considerations.

Shemsu, I believe that whatever our political differences, on the subject of how this 4T is likely to unfold following the election, you and I come pretty close to seeing eye to eye. Also, AFAIK, Jeremiah175 is inclined to a similar view on the subject, and even Kiff61, who had been hoping that the two sides would back away from the brink, is very close to giving up on that hope. My guess is that if the election is close and/or disputed (both VERY likely at this point!), that will make the course of events alluded to above all that much more likely. :shock: :evil:

The realization that one might accidently push themselves over and go apoplectic at the slightest provocation was a large part in why I decided to withdraw myself from discussing politics.

Not to impugn anyone here, but I am seeing and hearing more and more reasonable people becoming awfully combative with their ideas.

I just won't have any part of that.

So maybe I have felt this impending escalation ready to break and crash on our shores too.

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Originally Posted by TrollKing

you're fucking welcome. TK

nice out-of-context lift.


TK

Originally Posted by Barbara

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

And you know all this...how? Because Karl Rove says it's true? Fuck him!

Oh my Lord, Roadbldr, I couldn't have said it better myself! Bravo!

My better half has even suggested that Dan Rather was set up by The Rover as Dan has had a key spot on the Bush Family's Hit List for many years...... that makes more sense than anything the media is saying about it! Too bad, though, as I bet they were going for Dan to be fired over it........

I was prepared to accept that possibility at the first breaking of the story, but it's not what happened. We now know that Mapes, the producer who brought the debacle down on CBS, contacted Larry Lindsey and put him in touch with the man who provided the fake documents, before they ever went to press, leaving the Kerry campaign and CBS scrambling to explain why they were consulting before the story was released. Their cover story was simply threadbare.

Rather was not framed. The only questions are whether he and CBS News knew the documents were fake or not, (and it's now looking unpleasantly as if they did, or might well have), and whether the Kerry campaign was directly involved in faking them (that isn't clear yet). They did have their 'fortunate son' ad campaign ready to go, and they were using lines that sound exactly like the lines in the documents, but that isn't conclusive.

CBS' own tame experts told them the documents were probably framed. They ignored it. Apparently CBS interviewed various relatives of Killian's before the went to press, and were told that the story didn't add up. They disregarded it. They dug up Killian's former secretary, and tried to use her to substantiate the documents, and she tripped them up without intending to.

Then Rather compounded the damage, first by insisting that the documentary source was unimpeachable when in fact the whole country already knew they were fake, and by that bizarre statement about wanting to 'break the story' if they were fake, when the story was broken days earlier, making him look weirdly out of touch with his own story.

Positng Rove's involvement in the first week or two was reasonable. It's pretty much been debunked now.

BTW, Kitty Kelly's new book The Family is very good. A tad bit redundant in places, but Recommended.

One of her primary sources has already disavowed what Kelly wrote.

Originally Posted by Croakmore

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

...In my view, an Unravelling proceeds from the bottom up, in sync with the Generational pattern. Basically, as the Adaptive Generation replaces the Civic Generation in any given institution, it begins to Unravel, as they elevate a concern for fairness and process and (esp.) self-expression and self-fulfillment over the self-discipline and group cohesion favored by their next-elders. Thus the institutions become simultaneously fairer and more open, and more disconnected and ineffective in practice...

I, too, like using those generational descriptors from Generations (S&H, 1991) better than the loaded ones from T4T; "Artists," for example, seems too presumptive to me. And "Reactives" seems like a better word for the so-called "Nomads."

--Croakmore

Agreed. The terminology from Generations was superior, because it was straightforward and descriptive. It's usually best to use the simplest words to make a clear point.

Originally Posted by Barbara

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

It's got nothing to do with her dignity.

Awwww, Dawg? I LIKED what Kevin said about my dignity. Please let it be just a LITTLE bit about that...... :wink:

He's an abusive creep (which anybody here can ascertain on any given day...no need to belittle it) and, by her own testimony, he has twice run her off. Perhaps this time he will finally "get it" and earnestly seek to overcome this little problem he has.

I wouldn't change a thing about THAT post. 8) Although, I'd just prefer he go away and make good on this latest promise...... Mr. Bryan, keep on postin', Hon......sounds good to me!

Thank you Ms. Barbara!

Trog, you have been indicted and convicted of this charge. What shall the sentence be?

Originally Posted by TrollKing

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Originally Posted by TrollKing

you're fucking welcome. TK

nice out-of-context lift.


TK

Remember TK, it's poor Marc that's being persecuted here. Weep for the poor Trog.
:cry: :cry: :cry: